Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to our last episode of 2021—and hang onto something, it's a doozy! Our first attempt to record was plagued by technology issues, so we join Frank and Crystal on take two! In this episode they discuss what they read this week, their favorite books of 2021, and Crystal pulls some tarot cards to try to gleam a little of what 2022 holds! 

Crystal read...

The Twilight Zone by Nona Fernandez

It's 1984 in Chile, in the middle of the Pinochet dictatorship. A member of the secret police walks into the office of a dissident magazine and finds a reporter who records his testimony. The narrator of Nona Fernández’s mesmerizing and terrifying novel The Twilight Zone is a child when she first sees this man’s face on the magazine’s cover with the words “I Tortured People.” His complicity in the worst crimes of the regime and his commitment to speaking about them haunt the narrator into her adulthood and career as a writer and documentarian. Like a secret service agent from the future, through extraordinary feats of the imagination, Fernández follows the “man who tortured people” to places that archives can’t reach, into the sinister twilight zone of history where morning routines, a game of chess, Yuri Gagarin, and the eponymous TV show of the novel’s title coexist with the brutal yet commonplace machinations of the regime. (Publisher summary)

Frank read...

The Temple of the Golden Pavilion by Yukio Mishima; translated from the Japanese by Ivan Morris

Mizoguchi, an ostracized stutterer, develops a childhood fascination with Kyoto's famous Golden Temple. While an acolyte at the temple, he fixates on the structure's aesthetic perfection and it becomes his one and only object of desire. But as Mizoguchi begins to perceive flaws in the temple, he determines that the only true path to beauty lies in an act of horrific violence. Based on a real incident that occurred in 1950, The Temple of the Golden Pavilion brilliantly portrays the passions and agonies of a young man in postwar Japan, bringing to the subject the erotic imagination and instinct for the dramatic moment that marked Mishima as one of the towering makers of modern fiction. (Publisher summary)

Before they close out this year, Frank and Crystal name their favorite reads from 2021. Some were mentioned on previous episodes—maybe you read them with us? 

Frank loved...

Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro

From her place in the store that sells artificial friends, Klara—an artificial friend with outstanding observational qualities—watches carefully the behavior of those who come in to browse, and of those who pass in the street outside. She remains hopeful a customer will soon choose her, but when the possibility emerges that her circumstances may change forever, Klara she is warned not to invest too much in the promises of humans. In this luminous tale, Klara and the Sun, Nobel Prize winner Kazuo Ishiguro looks at our rapidly changing modern world through the eyes of an unforgettable narrator to explore a fundamental question: what does it mean to love? (Publisher summary)

Frank and Crystal discussed Klara and the Sun in Coffee, Coffee, Coffee! (And Books!), Ep. 201

Crystal had a few favorites, some of them include...

Insurrecto by Gina Apostol

While on a road trip in Duterte’s Philippines, two women, a Filipino translator and an American filmmaker, both collaborate and clash in the writing of a film script about a massacre during the Philippine-American war. (Publisher summary.)

Frank and Crystal discussed Insurrecto in Insurrecto by Gina Apostol and GLITTER! Ep. 192

Shadow Life by Hiromi Goto 

Kumiko’s sweet life is shattered when Death’s shadow swoops in to collect her. With her quick mind and sense of humor, Kumiko, with the help of friends new and old, is prepared for the fight of her life. But how long can an old woman thwart fate? (Publisher summary.)

Were you able to guess Crystal's ASMR object this week? (Hint: it's on this page.)

Have a safe and happy new year! We'll see you in 2022!

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, and welcome to "The Librarian Is In," the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Crystal] And I am Crystal.

[Frank] And we are furious, [laughter] because we had --

[Crystal] I mean --

[Frank] Some kind of a technical problem and the -- I don't know what's going on, the internet [inaudible] or something.

[Crystal] I think it got so bad that I like passed the point of annoyance, and now I just think it's hilarious that we spent like an hour --

[Frank] Right, fine, I'll hop on that train.

[Crystal] It's just --

[Frank] I will hop on that train, and join you. Yes, rewrite. Thank you. I just needed reorienting. So here we are, to do the follow-up, I did see "West Side Story." I was talking the last time that I wanted to. The musical theater is --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Part of my fiber of my being. So I did. And what was interesting about it is that I cried all the way through, and it was a very well made movie, and I -- and totally enjoyable. The music will persist forever I think; and lyrics. It really was an experience for me because it harkened back to when I first saw the original one, 1961 version when I was a child on a little black and white TV in my basement; suburban basement. And that experience was transcendent. And I'll -- I think watching the new one just harkened back to that, or recalled that experience. And that's really where the tears come from. So much is so formed in our childhood that whenever we have --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] An experience like that in childhood, it sort of never leaves you. So it's interesting, the new movie did not -- I was afraid in a way that it would replace the old one. And then I realized it just can't because that original experience is just so tied up with so many emotions and being a young person.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And no experience in the world and seeing this movie about love, and conflict, and just beautiful music, that the second was almost like just revisiting, you know, reinterpretation and -- of the same beautiful music, which is -- and themes, which is perfectly fine and wonderful.

[Crystal] This is how I feel about "The Sound of Music."

[Frank] Well, that --

[Crystal] Probably why --

[Frank] It's kind of --

[Crystal] That's the only one I like, because I watched it growing up, and sang to it until people told me to stop singing.

[Frank] Well, speaking of that, they -- I was going to say, "Well, they can't remake that," but they did. They did that --

[Crystal] Did they?

[Frank] Or they did that live -- I don't know, that show that where they do musicals live. And they did "Hairspray," they did "Sound of Music."

[Crystal] Was it -- oh was it "Glee?"

[Frank] No. No.

[Crystal] No.

[Frank] No.

[Crystal] No.

[Frank] It was a -- [ Inaudible ] It's "Glee" on TV where they have live --

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] Performances -- live productions of musicals. And they did "Sound of Music" with Carrie Underwood.

[Crystal] Oh, really.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] I don't think I would have liked that.

[Frank] So they did remake that. So anything can be -- I don't have a problem with that -- I guess, of reinterpreting or remaking so-called classics that seem like you could never remake them, or as a lot of people say like, "Why bother?"

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] No, no, no, I did like have a moment where I was going in to seeing the new one that I was like, "I don't want it to like change my experience of the first one, and it didn't.

[Crystal] Yes. Well, was the new one a reinterpretation of I mean the first one; or just --

[Frank] You know --

[Crystal] The same?

[Frank] Well, I mean, it didn't go wild with -- I mean, everything is a reinterpretation. Visually it's different, but it's --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] It's more or less the same. I mean, the big thing was that, you know, in the '61 version like all the Puerto Rican characters were not -- were played by white actors [overlapping] --

[Crystal] Yes. Yes.

[Frank] And makeup. And that was a big thing. Rita Moreno, who was in the original and in this one -- who's great in this one, was the only Puerto Rican playing a Puerto Rican in that version.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] They even darkened her skin.

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] And it was wondered why that had to be. So Steven Spielberg sort of rectified that situation.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And he reinterpreted some of the musical numbers --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] In terms of visuals and stuff like that. It's just such a good score.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know? So I cried all the way through.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I had a good time. I laughed, I cried. [laughs]

[Crystal] As you should with movies, right?

[Frank] As you should. It was the first movie I've seen in forever, so --

[Crystal] Did you go to a theater to see?

[Frank] Yes. It's not --

[Crystal] Wow.

[Frank] Anywhere else, so you know, one of those -- which to me are fairly new when they have those reclining seats and all --

[Crystal] Oh, I love those.

[Frank] The craziness; yes.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] In the Dolby Auditorium.

[Crystal] Did -- when you went and saw it, like were there a lot of people there; because I feel like there's something about seeing it in a theater with an audience where you kind of get swept away with the emotion of the group there, versus like watching at home I'm just kind of like a little bit more quiet, you know.

[Frank] Oh, totally. There were a lot of people there. And I was with a couple of friends, so --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And who are into musicals as well, and Stephen Sondheim, and --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] So we sort of were just nudging each other and being like, "Oh." [laughter]

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] So yes; so that was my follow-up on the fact that I wanted to see it, and I did.

[Crystal] Sounds like a lovely experience.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Yes. So I know we're all heading into 2022 in a nutty sort of way.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know, like we would have said before, it was just -- you know, [overlapping] --

[Crystal] [Overlapping]; yes. I think you said it really well -- [laughs]

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] In our previous recording --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] About how like there's just like no perfect thing that can happen.

[Frank] That's just the thing, it just trips me up all the time is like even after a year and a half, like I feel like I should have learned this lesson, but it just takes so much longer to unlearn something. And that every time I want to say, "Well, we'll do that in February," "We'll do that in March," "We'll do that in January," I mean, then you really think immediately because of the past year and a half's experience, you can't plan.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You can't really conclusively say, "We're going to do that."

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] It just -- the world doesn't work that way right now. And that --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Is disorienting.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I wish it could be freeing in a way; like sort of like, "Well, we're forced to live for the moment," but somehow I can't quite do that.

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] Maybe that's the thing I want to learn, like I wish I could just be like, "Well, I'm here now. Let's see what happens."

[Crystal] You want to be like a cat. I read this article [laughter] that was shared amongst some of my colleagues that like cats have no concept of the future. [laughs]

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] And that's what we want, we want to just like exist in the presence, and not think about the future, and just be like cats, right? But no, I have this similar experience of like, you know, I think seeing how things were going like, "Oh, okay, maybe like traveling is a possibility again; like maybe going out visiting family more regularly, things like that." I felt like that was maybe a month ago, all in my future for 2022. And now it feels so different where it is just sort of like assessment. "Do I need to push back a flight to see my family? You know, I maybe will not be spending holiday events with friends because who knows what could happen; so I'll probably just stay at home," you know. And so if things are -- things are changing, but I think in some respect like I feel like I'm kind of used to it because of 2020 and just you just kind of have to roll with it; like what can you do, right?

[Frank] I mean, it -- yes. There's a great -- we also have to say like there's a great privilege in saying, "We just have to roll with it," that we're okay and --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] It's interesting like our point of view about certain things. Like hearing you talk is like I -- [inaudible] with that story with -- were the ones I was going to travel to Greece with. So like last year my dream of going to Greece --

[Crystal] Oh. Yes.

[Frank] [Overlapping] so that we decided not to go this spring either.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Just because travel is stressful enough, and --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] All that's happening, who knows what March, May, April -- April, May is going to look like?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] So that's not happening. What was I going to say? Oh, but then the -- you know, God bless them, many, many, many, many people have been traveling all year.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And so I keep thinking, "Well, I'll wait, you know, until 2023."

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And it seems like, "Well, people have been traveling constantly, and I guess many are okay?" You know, even --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I don't know. [Inaudible] with the latest variant, you know, I don't -- it even though it seems milder, I don't -- nobody really knows. I just don't want it. I don't want it. [laughs]

[Crystal] Yes. I think there's --

[Frank] We all might get it eventually and it will just be in the flu [overlapping] --

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] Thing.

[Crystal] I think it's the uncertainty of not knowing enough right now. Like there's still a lot of information that we are -- I think scientists are trying to gather. And I think once we know more, maybe then we can make those kinds of reason decisions about whether or not we will travel or not, and things like that. But yes, I think there's a -- we're in this like weird area of uncertainty [laughs] that feels --

[Frank] Well --

[Crystal] Uncomfortable.

[Frank] But yes the -- you said it, the only thing we can do -- and in terms of vaccines, and variants, and all the V words like, you know, we can only make the best decisions we can make.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And that's all we can do. And hopefully we make the best decisions we can make, and the ones that will bear out in history.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know, like, "All right, we're not going to travel this year." Just make that decision, and then see what happens. But so it's all we really can do. What was I even going to say; I forgot. Oh, that again, we're living through history, like intense moment of history, and that history has not been written yet. And you know, 50 years from now when people read about this year, it will have more of a narrative, it will be put into a narrative.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know, it will be like, "Oh, yes, the turn of 2022 there was a new variant, and everyone felt X, Y, and Z, and then it turned into this." We just don't know it yet.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] We're living through history; so which should also be somewhat of an interesting thrill, but it somehow is not. [laughs]

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] This is a depressing podcast [laughter] today, so.

[Crystal] It's going to be a sad podcast.

[Frank] I know. [Inaudible] I think rather intense books. [laughs]

[Crystal] Yes. Should I go into --

[Frank] Why don't you, darling; my dear, my dear Crystal?

[Crystal] I will say, in our -- again, previous recording I found a pathway through your conversation of "West Side Story," and viewing that as a child. And this time I'll find a pathway through what you were just saying [laughs] about living through history, and then being able to --

[Frank] All about making connections.

[Crystal] And being able to like look back on it in the future, and making those kinds of like connections, to use your word. So the book I read was "The Twilight Zone" by Nona Fernandez, who's the -- I think actually an actress/screenwriter/writer. And it's translated by Natasha Wimmer. And it was on the -- I think long list or short list -- or it was the final list for the National Book Award for Translated Literature.

[Frank] The long list, or short list, or final list [laughter] [overlapping] list.

[Crystal] It was --

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] [Laughs] [Inaudible]. So you know, I found this to be like not maybe my typical style of book. I think the past few podcasts I was like really investing in these like very cheery kind of romantic comedies, and lighthearted books. I was like, "No, no, I'm going to try something different." And this was very [laughs] different and kind of dark and very serious. But essentially the -- this book talks about -- and I have to look up his name, and I do have it saved here; [laughs] this man named "Andres Antonio Valenzuela Morales," who is an agent -- I think part of the secret police in Chile. And he goes and does an interview with a magazine where he essentially reveals everything that he's done. And the magazine cover is something like, "I tortured people." And this magazine cover kind of is encountered by the narrator as a child, and sort of like obsesses her in some way, right? And she kind of traces the life of this man, and the different kinds of crimes that were revealed, the people that were -- disappeared or abducted, taken away, tortured, and most of them killed, under the Pinochet dictatorship in like the 1970s, '80s in Chile. And I think what's interesting about this book is that all of this is set against a lot of American pop culture; and one being particularly "The Twilight Zone." You were talking a little bit earlier about like Rod Sterling and how you like had --

[Frank] Serling.

[Crystal] Was it?

[Frank] No "T," darling, "Serling." [laughs]

[Crystal] "Sterling."

[Frank] You just correct the younger people [overlapping] --

[Crystal] I did -- to be fair, I did read a graphic novel that followed his life. I think it was called "Twilight Man," or something like that?

[Frank] Well [overlapping] --

[Crystal] It was pretty good. But I had never seen a "Twilight Zone" episode in its entirety, because of course, the fear; the fear of scary things. [laughs]

[Frank] Oh, really, is that the reason why?

[Crystal] Yes, yes, I don't like --

[Frank] But it was on when you were a kid, like -- or in rerun or syndication.

[Crystal] Maybe; possibly, or I think maybe I had friends who were very into it, and they would like to watch it; and that what, "X-Files," things like that, and I would just be like, "Oh, okay, sure."

[Frank] All right.

[Crystal] I was more about "I Love Lucy" type of person. But in this book, I think the author like does this great job of sort of investigating the history of her country, right, through the lens of pop culture, in particular "The Twilight Zone," and kind of creating these overlapping realities, where she will describe something that's happening in her world as a child. Maybe like for example perhaps like she's going to school, the -- her family is sitting down to dinner, and then maybe they see something like really odd that's happening. There was one story where a man like throws himself under a bus, right, and when he's under the bus injured, you know, is shouting like, "The -- these men are coming for me," blah, blah, blah. "Don't let them take me. I'm going to be tortured." And the realization by the average citizens that the secret police are involved, and rather than helping him, they do nothing. They're kind of like frozen in fear. And then the secret police do take him. He is tortured and he is killed, right? And a lot of this stuff I think comes out in the testimony of the -- of Morales, who is often referred to in the book as "The man who tortured people," like that's how Fernandez constantly refers to him; not necessarily by his name, all right? And it -- it's interesting, the books starts -- of these like overlapping realities, and she talks about this sort of I guess gray area or liminal space, right, between the reality that she experienced, and the reality that other people were experiencing, the people who were -- disappeared, executed, murdered, right, by the regime. And yes, I think it's very well done, very interestingly done. And the writing and the setup offers this kind of like unique glimpse into history, right?

[Frank] Can I ask a question?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] So clearly as a child --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I'm seeing the author in the '70s and '80s had access to American pop culture via television, right? Like she -- that's how she saw "Twilight Zone," do you think; or how the -- at least the narrator did -- sees it. Or I'm actually asking --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Just [inaudible] set up again, because like you said "overlapping realities," is it like a surreal take, or is it I mean literally referencing episodes of "The Twilight Zone," and sort of merging them with experience in this heightened, crazy dictatorship time; terrible time?

[Crystal] It's interesting because it -- like the flow of the book it's like it will be a section that is sort of describing the experience of maybe like a citizen who is not aware of what's really happening, but he sees something odd; and then it flips to the story of the person who has disappeared, kidnapped, which is presumably learned through -- [ Inaudible ] Analysis like testimony interview. And then the narrator will jump to like a paragraph that like maybe talks about different "Twilight Zone" episodes. And I think we talked about this earlier too, one of the episodes being this man who is -- goes off into space, has -- a wreck lands on the planet, is alone, and tries to signal his home planet, or Earth, I think possibly, for help. And the response is like, you know, that a war has broken out. And he realizes that they cannot save him, so he's just like in that island alone. And I think there's a lot of comparisons to those characters who are like stepping through these realities. I think another one was a man who like walked through a mirror, you know.

[Frank] I get it. Like because definitely [inaudible], I can only imagine a terrible dictatorship where things happen covertly in broad daylight, where, you know, a --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] The normal situation of walking through the city streets and you see something that seems so strange and terrible happen that you almost can't believe it's happening. And this -- "The Twilight Zone" episodes like -- especially the ones you just referenced I can almost feel the blanks of what happened because I've seen them so many times.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I was obsessed with it when I was a kid. Usually is you think one thing is happening, but really something else is going on, almost always.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] That throws into question our existence, like what -- how we perceive reality, what really is happening, or, "Oh, that's how it worked, rather than this way." And that makes a lot of sense in terms of a child living through a terrible --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] [Inaudible] time.

[Crystal] And then using that as like a language to kind of reveal like what's happening, and maybe like the emotions of the people, the comparison to those people who were -- the person stranded on a different planet, the comparison to that person to somebody who was kidnapped, right, and going through this process of torture, and knowing what was going to happen to them; maybe their fates, right? There was another sort of comparison about a man who was carrying the interview, I believed, of Morales, or the man who tortured people. He was given the interview and told, "Do not read this," right? And he was to carry it to -- I think [inaudible] maybe to the Washington Post or another news outlet to publish. And it shifts from him like on the plane, like unable to resist reading it, and reading it, and then just overwhelmed with the knowledge of these deaths and --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Other people that were lost and executed. And then it shifts to one of "The Twilight Zone" stories where it was a -- maybe you'll guess it, but like a man who encounters the book that says, "If you read this, you will die -- whoever reads this will die," or it's forbidden to read. And he is -- doesn't believe it, has -- gives it to somebody to read, they read it, and as they're reading it, like a smile kind of like crosses their face, and then they fall dead. It happens again to another person. And then this man starts using this book to get rid of his enemies, right, by giving them the book and is able to amass wealth and other things using this book as a weapon. And then to have a family, a beautiful family with beautiful kids. He buries the book in a backyard, so --

[Frank] Okay, I --

[Crystal] Oh, you would never --

[Frank] [Overlapping], actually, I'm struck, but now I'm thinking I think I know what happens; one of his kids finds it?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Ah.

[Crystal] And then when he comes back, he sees that -- I think they were having a story time, the mom was reading it, and then they had a [sounds] [inaudible] reading it. But I know, but just like the juxtaposition of that with the man on the plane reading this testimony, and --

[Frank] Yes, I love that.

[Crystal] The grief and the way I think, you know, this man -- [inaudible] was used a weapon to get rid of enemies, right, and the legacy of that, right? So --

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] I know, I thought this was like a really interesting piece. Oh, I was going to also add like another thing that -- they talk about different pop culture things, but another strong piece is towards the end. They do -- she does reference Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start The Fire," and towards the end she talks about how in that book it seems like a bunch of chronological things, but very like American pop culture things that are happening that kind of shapes the world that maybe Billy Joel is living through or experiencing. And I think she kind of does her own version of that at the end, where she does this kind of chronological [inaudible] lyric, very structured, that talks about the different things that are happening, and it juxtaposes all these like horrible torture executions and murders with her going to school, right? The first day she went to school, her sitting down with -- having dinner with her family, and the bigger political picture and the more mundane things that were happening in her life. And then certain things are constantly repeated too like it would be in a song stanza. I'm going to try to find one of those. So like one part is -- and so let's see, attempted assassination of Pinochet by the Manuel Rodriguez patriotic front. Pinochet escapes and claims to have seen the Virgin. The reporter, Pepe Carrasco is assassinated in France, the man who tortured people keeps speaking out from his hiding place. More events happen, and then it gets repeated. In France the man who tortured people keeps speaking out from his hiding place. He does eventually like make his way to France. [Inaudible] family members so they disappeared, light candles in front of the cathedral. That's constantly repeated throughout the stanzas. Later on -- let's see, hmm, the family who disappears -- families will disappear, like candles from the cathedral. Oh, and then another one that I thought was interesting, the [inaudible] democracy, that line gets disappeared several times as well -- I mean it gets repeated several times as well.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] So yes; and then it ends at the very end, "We didn't start the fire. No, we didn't light it, but we tried to fight it." And I think it's a reference to the Billy Joel song, of course. No, no, so it was -- I thought it was a really fascinating book. I enjoyed it lots.

[Frank] It sounds like it; especially if you know the popular culture --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] References that weigh in, because sort of like I just said about "West Side Story," and you picked up on is that as children the -- via television, via this -- that screen --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] We did have the actual experiences that sort of never leave us --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] That -- they morph into more sophisticated versions of that knowledge. But "The Twilight Zone" certainly was very sophisticated for a child especially. And I think for adults at that time too, introducing concepts of existence that were startling about --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Identity and about who we are, and about like what we value as important. And so juxtaposing that would have to have been a terrible time in Chile.

[Crystal] It --

[Frank] It makes sense in a way.

[Crystal] Yes. You know, as I was reading this, I did think I really wished we had selected this book for us to read together, because I think --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Others really enjoyed it, and I also feel like you would have probably gotten so many of the pop culture references, and they have to explain some of them to me too.

[Frank] Really.

[Crystal] Certainly "The Twilight Zone" episodes. But I feel like you wouldn't really enjoy this one. Yes.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] It reminded me in a lot of ways of "Insurrecto" --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] At different points. Yes.

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] Although, the main character, the narrator, is also a documentary filmmaker. And there's this kind of blurring of like, "Is this Nona Fernandez," you know, so it --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] There's an interesting -- yes, tie-in there.

[Frank] Well, it -- you know, you made me just think of all these episodes of "The Twilight Zone."

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I mean, there are so many I could say. I mean, one of the -- maybe the one that pertains is a very -- a -- I think he's a bank clerk who is very so-called "dorky," and all he likes to do is read books.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And you know, during his lunchtime he goes into the bank vault and reads alone. Like he closes the bank vault door and puts his glasses on and reads. And one day he -- there's basically an -- this is also during this sort of atomic age when the threat of nuclear war was like so prevalent; late '50s and '60s. And he -- when he's in the vault, you know, the atomic bomb goes off -- like or a bomb, or a nuclear war, or some sort of war, that destroys the planet. The planet is like complete; done. But he's in that vault, so he's protected. And he comes out to a devastated world. But he's sort of thrilled because now -- he had a bad marriage or something, and so now he can read all the books that -- he goes to the ruin of the library and there are millions of books. He's like, "I can read the rest of my life." It's like, "I am perfectly happy." And his glasses fall and shatter, and he can't see, and he can't read. I mean, and that's the end of it. Like ah, God, existence and anticipation and what happened [inaudible]. So --

[Crystal] [Inaudible] I think I'm familiar with that story, only because of like parodies through "Futurama" or [inaudible].

[Frank] They didn't -- oh God, there are so many I could say.

[Crystal] Yes. But --

[Frank] But I shouldn't.

[Crystal] But I [inaudible].

[Frank] I want to read it.

[Crystal] Yes. You should.

[Frank] What were you going to say?

[Crystal] Oh, no, I think I was trying to think about like -- I don't know too much about "The Twilight Zone," but it felt like there were always these -- based on the descriptions, like the book, the mirror, there were like these objects, and these objects were -- I don't know how you would describe them, like maybe like these entryways to another reality, right? And I felt like in a lot of the stories or in the narration there would be references of different things that the citizens would see, and that was if they had explored further would have led them to this real and darker reality. But oftentimes --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] They might shut themselves off from it, I felt like. Yes.

[Frank] Got it.

[Crystal] And so she was kind of like revealing those things. You have to talk about your book.

[Frank] Yes. What?

[Crystal] You have to talk about your book; yes.

[Frank] All right, so yes, so I'll -- I could talk forever about the book I read, and -- as one can about books they read. And -- but I won't so; because we also want to talk about the best [inaudible] of 2020 before we sign off for the year, kid.

[Crystal] 2021; 2021 [overlapping]. [laughs]

[Frank] 2021. I don't even know what year it is; 2021.

[Crystal] Oh, I just accepted it. I was like, "Yes, [inaudible] 2020."

[Frank] Yes. [laughter]

[Crystal] [Inaudible] that feels right.

[Frank] [Overlapping] books of 1896. [laughter] So anyway, I read a book called "The Temple of the Golden Pavilion" --

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] By Yukio Mishima; Mishima --

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] Who's a Japanese author, and no longer with us; a very interesting life, from what I heard and over the years. He died in 1970, actually in a ritual suicide. But -- [laughs]

[Crystal] Oh, really?

[Frank] Yes. Yes. [ Inaudible ] He was an interesting character, and one of the most famous authors to come out of Japan. And I've always wanted to read a book by his. And a colleague at the library I'm currently at has suggested this, and I said, "Okay." And it was quite an experience. So it's "The Temple of the Golden Pavilion." And it's -- you can't say it's plot-driven, so there's that. It's very much a book of ideas, and it's very much philosophy. What essentially is -- happens is there's a young boy in postwar Japan, post World War II, who goes to a temple to become an acolyte in the temple and eventually become a priest and study to become a priest, and his experiences in this temple. And then his eventual obsession with the temple itself, and his relationship to his -- like co-students and the temple and his family. And it's from a first person narrative, so it's from his point of view. And you're very much in his head the whole way through. And so that's the sort of story in a nutshell. But as I said, you're in his head. And I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't know a lot of it. So I didn't -- I was extremely frustrated at the beginning, and actually at points throughout the book because I didn't know what was happening really, or what his thoughts were. I couldn't get a fix on him. And it was interesting, because -- there's also the stress of like, "Is this an East versus West thing? Like it's a cultural difference that you can't get?" And I tend to think that, you know, we're people so there's the threat of humanity you can pick up on. I mean, I'm sure cultural differences would come out.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] But we only had the text of the book to understand, so we have to go with that. So I think one of their interesting things that I -- now that I've read it, I can look back and realize is that this is really a story from a very disordered, one could say, mind

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And a mind that is very distanced from his own emotions. And I was -- that's what was tripping me up is that I wasn't getting emotional cues from this narrator telling his story. That allowed me to realize, "Okay, this is where he is emotionally, and therefore I know what his personality is coming to be; like I can get an idea of this personality." There were a very few -- to me, emotional cues was more philosophical rumination.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And it was hard to grab him. But eventually, it's a personality of sorts does coalesce, I mean, as much as we can know anybody in a way. And it's not that pretty [laughs] in terms of, you know, a personality; encountering a personality. So what the book is -- [inaudible] with a lot of philosophical issues. And one of the primary ones it is in a way is what the book and the narrator -- Mizoguchi is his name --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Refer to as "beauty." I mean, he becomes obsessed with the temple that he is an acolyte in, and it becomes a representation and manifestation of so many things in his life. I mean, he is a stutterer. He describes himself as physically not that attractive. And he -- if that relates, it becomes obsessed with this temple, his golden temple. And it is an object that allows him to ruminate on the nature of beauty, on that feeling that we -- one can have looking at something beautiful and feel so transcended. Like I talked about "West Side Story", feel transcendent from watching something beautiful, or experiencing something beautiful. But then, of course, he goes off on philosophical ruminations about various aspects of perceiving beauty. And that's what was frustrating through -- all the way through, is something philosophical can be, because it's not -- you're not just delivered, "Here's what beauty is to this character," you're also treated to his mind, which is -- sometimes says the opposite. Like he'll say, "Beauty is transcendent. It makes me feel connected to the world." And then he'll say also, "Beauty doesn't make me feel connected to the world because I'm ugly. It makes me outside of the world."

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And so you get these conflicting points, and you want to sort of start -- you hope to get like sort of what his point of view is. But he is constantly opposing himself in his writing. And then he's arguing with himself or -- in a way, trying things out in a way to torture himself and therefore us; like in a way to sort of -- I'm using that word "torture" emotionally, in that he delights in being oppositional --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] To himself, and therefore, to the reader, really, almost to sort of intentionally conflate or to flip on its head a concept for the sake of just flipping it on its head. In a way, that's, you know -- the other element of reading a book about Japanese culture is that -- the idea of Buddhism and what that plays into it. Like, you know, Buddhistic thought -- one of which I think I can get from his book is that you have a fetish or you have a belief in a specific aspect of life, you should flip it on its head to confound it and to see if you can find deeper truth. Like never get to sedentary in one belief.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You should always be questioning. And that's certainly what this book does, and that can -- as really a novel, you want to sort of sometimes, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, I don't even know where this guy is." And you do eventually -- the sort of philosophical music aside, I do eventually get a sense of his disordered, I'll say, mind. I mean, it brings into question like what is mental illness? I mean, because his evolution is that he eventually wants to destroy -- spoiler alert, this temple --

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] And debates it. Like destroying the temple, this ultimate object of beauty to him will free him from his obsession and allow him to actually live with it. With it around, he can't fully disengage from it and live his own life; which you could say is someone who's ill, or disordered, or troubled. And it's interesting, because then the other object, which could be Buddhistic as well, is this sort of frustration with the fact that there's a thought that beauty should be transient, should be temporary, that beauty by nature should come and go very quickly. Like music, you hear, you know -- not recorded music, but live music, you hear a note and that note has played in that one particular way only, and then it's gone; and that by definition then, "beauty" should be transient and temporary. So during the war as a child, everyone assumes that his neighborhood, of course, will be bombed by the allies or -- and the temple will be destroyed. And he sort of hopes for it and -- because he's so obsessed with it. But then the war ends and the temple survives. This is also based on a real story, by the way, and about a monk in Japan who did burn down a 500-year-old temple, because he decided he hated beautiful things. And this is Mishima's attempt at recreating what possibly a mind like that -- how it evolved and what it did. Does that make any sense to you?

[Crystal] Yes. I mean, I'm actually looking at the Wikipedia plot summary, which seems like super-involved. [laughter] I hate it when I do this.

[Frank] I know. When you don't listen to me, whether you [overlapping] --

[Crystal] I'm listening. [laughs]

[Frank] You can't listen -- well -- at the same time. But there's so much there, as you could imagine because, you know, he's a very adrenaline-fueled writer, that you could tell that he just lets his mind fly.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] There's also some debate about -- Mishima, obviously he kills himself in real life --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] But what his own emotional wellbeing state was and how he functioned --

[Crystal] That was going to be my question, how much of the writer is -- how much of himself is in these characters?

[Frank] Right. I mean, what's interesting is -- and so the narrator, Mizoguchi, who is obsessed with this temple and eventually destroys it, he meets two friends at -- or two, you know, students at the temple, and you know, they're sort of very interesting ones, sort of like a bad influence, one's a good influence, and it sort of philosophically can ruminate on those influences. And what I said before about getting an emotional cue as a way into a personality, which you don't tend to get in this book, is that he says at one point about his own personality -- the narrator, that he needs -- especially the good friend he needs; he needs that good friend's filter in order to get language to function in society. Like he feels outside -- like such an outsider, so different, so ugly, so unconnected to human existence, that he needs this good person who is perceived as good --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] To get the language so he can actually function in human society. I mean, but that's another thing about beauty is that his obsession with the temple is another way of connecting to the world, the physical world of humans in a physical space through beauty, that he feels it might be his way as a connection. But it's something very difficult for him to do to actually do that. And obviously, he's conflicted, like sometimes he's very much grateful for the temple and its beauty, and then other times he's furious at it for being beautiful. You know, it's conflicted.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And like a lot of philosophy it doesn't give you answers, it asks more questions than it answers. But if you understand that, I feel you cannot almost -- it's a kind of book you can read over like two years, you know like --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Read three pages at a time, because you're not being driven forward by the plot necessarily until the sort of last couple pages when you realize what's going to happen. It's more like this rumination and philosophical inquiry into beauty and other existential questions. So what? So what? [laughs]

[Crystal] Sounds like --

[Frank] So what, Frank? [Overlapping] --

[Crystal] It sounds like "The Golden Pavilion" is his twilight zone portal of some sort.

[Frank] Hmm. But it is a portal; I guess. Just trying to see if there's any mention that I just definitely wanted to mention. I think I sort of gave it in a nutshell. It's a toughie. But like I like reading books that are tough. I mean, it does sometimes feel beyond you, but I sometimes read pages that I just let sort of float through my consciousness that I didn't really understand. It's amazing how one can do that. Like can you -- like when you're reading, like you realize you've read a page and you don't really know what you just read?

[Crystal] Yes. My mind wanders, yes.

[Frank] But it's good to see it could literally still be reading and thinking about something else.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Like I mean, I don't know quite how that works. I mean, I guess you're not really reading, but yet your eyes and brain are moving down the page.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I don't know, but that did happen, and I've just said, let it be.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] But I go down -- sometimes I go back, but sometimes I was like, "Just keep moving forward. It's okay if you didn't get that," because there was so much to get. I mean, there's so much that was given to you through this book. Let's see. I mean, any statements -- like that's just for an example. I mean, he makes such statements like -- let's see here. Well, I told you about how he needs the friend's language so he can function in the world; the nice friend. And then he has a bad influence friend. I don't know, there -- let's see. I mean, he talks about -- I'm reading the wrong book; reading the notes from --

[Crystal] Which one?

[Frank] [Inaudible]. [laughter] What a moron.

[Crystal] You're like, "This doesn't make any sense." [laughs]

[Frank] Cut that out. I said, "What the heck?" Anyway, I'm leaving it there. This is a mild uninteresting [overlapping].

[Crystal] I mean, it seems like a very kind of epic story. Did it have that sense to it?

[Frank] It -- well it's -- yes it's emotionally epic and --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Idea -- it's an idea-driven book.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] No concepts are discussed, and tried out, and ruminated on; and sometimes left. You know, like he describes himself as disabled or, you know, he's handicapped by his stutter.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And the friend that's not such a great influence is described as having clubbed feet, or deformed feet. And at one point, a relationship is made between beauty and these deformities, and partly because beauty is so used to be looked at and being looked upon, and so are people who have so-called deformities, or feel like they're -- that they're always being looked at for that disability. And it's not in a seen way, it's more like you're an object. And so it was such -- so it was also a beautiful thing. Things like that, like you get that kind of comment, or that kind of rumination, and then it's onto another one, and you're sort of left to chew on that for a while, and think about it like, "Well, what does that -- that is -- there is a truism to that, like that being objectified --"

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] For obviously very different reasons.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] The challenging part is that -- like I said before is when he gets sort of paradoxical, or oppositional, like where he'll say contradicting things about the same subject. And you sort are left with that to sort of say, "Oh, well he's not handing me the truth, or his truth, or a truth. It's just, 'Here are the possibilities and think about it yourself'," really; [laughs] which I like. I just didn't know what -- that it was doing that for a while. And it was sort of difficult finding my way into it. Oh, there' another -- it's just one more, just looking at what I had written down, which another kind of concept, like you know, this temple is 500 years old, and that he burns down --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] That he's also obsessed with this beauty of this golden temple. And Mishima ruminates about how an object, if it lasts long enough, takes on the quality of time itself, meaning something lasts so long we can endow it with the quality of time itself, meaning it's immortal; that the thing we then believe is immortal because it takes on a quality of time itself, which is an interesting concept which -- and it's sort of true, like something we're so used to or something that's so present or so old that we -- it can take on the quality of immortality that feels exciting and sort of thrilling to be around. But then of course, Mizoguchi's mind goes to, "Now, I want to destroy it now, just for that reason. I don't -- it's not immortal. I'm going to make it -- I'm going to kill it." And so you have that juxtaposition. And it's sort of just like, "Oh, boy, okay." [laughs] You know, you're managing both sides of that equation. It's not just living in the thing of like, "Oh, immortality and beauty." It's sort of saying, "Well, here's the other side of it, too." But those are interesting ways to put it. Like giving language to these kinds of observations is very cool. So that was Yukio Mishima. You could talk a lot about this. I mean, it's extraordinary for the philosophical, and you could spend sort of year reading different -- couple pages at a time, so; what an exhausting day. [laughs]

[Crystal] Where does this one rank in your favorite reads of this --

[Frank] Oh, right.

[Crystal] Of this year?

[Frank] Well, it's too new.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] But I will say --you know, we were going to talk about our favorite books of 2021. And I just picked one, which I think -- which is interesting. This is also a Japanese author, Japanese -- Anglo-Japanese --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Kazuo Ishiguro. I'm going to say "Klara and the Sun" was my --

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] Best book of 2021, talk I talked about on the podcast. And interesting, like I also read a Japanese author this time around. And I think -- I read a review in the New York Review of Books after I had read it, and after I had discussed in the podcast that said something interesting that might be the core of why I like "Klara and the Sun," which is about like an artificial -- a robot who is defined to sort of be bought by humans to better their lives kind of thing. And I -- this review in the New York Review of Books says something like, "The book is about losing." Not loss --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Per se, but losing at something. And I thought about that, and I think there's something very true because the robot that you follow through the book in "Klara and the Sun" eventually, you know, the humans don't need her anymore, and she's sort of relegated to -- so scrap heap, literally; but how her brain has been programmed to do certain things and continues to strive to do those same things. And so she's lost at her function in life, which was to take care of people. And but yet her brain still -- or her artificial brain still strives to make sense of that, and to continue to strive for that, even if it means just going through memories rather than living in the present or future. I mean, it's sort of clearly a metaphor for death and what we have at the end of our lives, like have achieved what we needed to achieve? And then also eventually we will lose, possibly, our goal, our reason to exist. And there's something extraordinarily poignant and [inaudible] about that. And as you -- as everyone knows who's listened to this for seven seconds, like I'm all about the [inaudible] and the poignancy and -- this is the saddest podcast we've ever had.

[Crystal] Oh, man. [laughs]

[Frank] I mean, it's just never-ending. You'd better have like a [inaudible] book that's Comedy Central, or we're going to just have -- all lose it together. But that's it for me, kids. That's it. I'm -- 2020, I'm out -- 2021. I just don't even know what year it is. [Inaudible]. So what was your best book, baby?

[Crystal] I have a few. I'll tell you my like top one last. But I will say like in terms of the books that we discussed this year, I'm not surprised that you picked that one, because I remember you talking about it in a very like positive, admiring way. For the books that we've read, I personally felt like "Insurrecto" and also "The Twilight Zone" were probably my favorites. And a lot of that has to do with the way the authors kind of like play with structure, and kind of make the book more unusual like non-necessarily -- not necessarily linear kind of reading. And I enjoy that playfulness in a lot of ways. Let me look at my list. I opened up so many windows on my computer. I'm going to --

[Frank] Metaphorically or literally?

[Crystal] Well, you know, you go through your good reads --

[Frank] Have my this discussion of all my books opened up so many windows in your screen?

[Crystal] I felt like I talked about quite a few of them just in the podcast, so I'll just like briefly mention them. "[Inaudible] House" was one. Let's see, did I talk about this one, "Knowledge Justice: Disrupting Library and Information Studies Through Critical Race Theory" I thought was like a really great, like nonfiction book, especially for people who are studying library science or are in the field. Let's see, "Encyclopedia Exotica" by Aminder Dhaliwal was a comic book that I really enjoyed, that talked about the positioning of sort of like marginalized people within society through this metaphor of like Cyclops, right, or like two-eyed versus one-eyed people. I thought that was like a really fun and interesting read. Let's see. A few other ones, "Yolk" by Mary K. Choi -- Mary H.K. Choi, sorry. And "Crisis Zone" by Simon Hanselmann was also like a really interesting, fun book featuring a lot of really self-destructive people. I will say I think my top book -- we kind of talked about it; not on this podcast but when we did the thing as another place, "Shadow Life" by Hiromi Goto and Ann Xu, which is a comic book that follows this -- like she's like a -- yes, 76-year-old widow who is placed in like a senior home. But she escapes; decides that she is going to have her own life, gets kind of a bachelor pad. Her adult dollars are calling her, be like, "Where are you? Where are you?" And she's just kind of like living her life and fighting off death. The reason why I felt like it was my top read this year, which is also going to be kind of depressing -- even though it was a very comedic book, is that I felt like it kind of shifted my way about thinking about death, [laughs] which is so depressing. And I think some of it, too, was that like this was the first book I read where it talked about that subject in kind of a humorous way that did not necessarily leave me like sad, and maybe like made me kind of excited thinking about like entering different phases of life. And the main character is like super feisty, she's super admirable. There's so much to be enjoyed in it. And I think it's a book that talks about life after death. It also is a book that really kind of works for all ages and people from a lot of different kinds of backgrounds, because there is this commonality of experiencing the stage in life as you grow older, having, you know, adult children sort of becoming parental figures in some weird way. So I think that was my top reads. Highly recommend "Shadow Life" by Hiromi Goto.

[Frank] You know, you reminded me of something, I know this [inaudible] --

[Crystal] Also Japanese author, Japanese Canadian, so hey.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Hey. [laughs]

[Frank] Yay. This is sort of -- I don't know, again, another concept that was introduced in -- to "The Pavilion of the Golden Temple" is one that not so great supposedly character that's not a great influence on Mizoguchi is that he says the worst things in the world, "Are you --" or -- and again, nothing is that -- we're -- you cannot -- not only -- [makes sound] you can't always understand that on the surface you're just -- when you really think, "Well, what does that mean, really?" But he says to Mizoguchi that, you know, "On a beautiful summer day, on a perfectly manicured lawn, sometimes the worst things come to your mind. The worst things are conceived.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Whereas in times of tumult or in experiences of tumult and despair, your brain gets peaceful," or can get very basic -- almost survival mode, or just sort of Zen-like --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] In a way. And of course you think, "Well, what? What?" Again, the oppositional aspect of that like, "Oh, beautiful day equals bad deeds. A terrible time equals a Zen-like transcendence." I mean, sure, contemplate that. But I guess why I say that is that we feel apologetic for talking constantly about death or the -- or what death is like. And it's -- it- we shouldn't really apologize or even assume that it's depressing to a lot of people. It can be, but also sometimes contemplating those things are -- they are -- they can give you a peaceful aspect or a -- if you could -- if you -- oy vey.

[Crystal] Like --

[Frank] I'm digging myself here. I'm not going to talk anymore.

[Crystal] Well, it could be --

[Frank] Everybody, take it the way you want to take it. But just like [overlapping] --

[Crystal] It could be freeing in some ways; like to sort of not worry or feel scared I think can be a freeing experience, right, you know.

[Frank] It's -- yes it's complicated, because you -- when you -- you can't almost universalize that, "Oh, thinking about actual things like death will occur to all of us, so why not think about it? And if you think about it, that means you're contemplating what's real."

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] But also, it does come down to your personality. I mean, like in "Golden Temple," you know, the character has a real problem with feeling and a real problem with his emotions. And so when he thinks about these darker things -- so called "darker things," it's an attempt to actually jolt feeling into being. And not everyone has that problem.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know, not everyone has that issue, per se. You know, you can't almost universalize that. Some people are like, "I'm very conversant with the darker side of my feelings and thinking about lighter things, and so-called lighter things and lighter works of art are important to me to alleviate that," you know?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] It all depends on how we approach it, I guess. I mean, I just think ultimately, it's good food for thought for sure. But we are different for sure.

[Crystal] Yes. Is it time?

[Frank] Don't you think? Oh, I think it's time to pick it. All right, last ASMR of our lifetime here.

[Crystal] Okay. I want to see if I can do this correctly.

[Frank] You'd better pick one, because I don't want to hear of this ever again.

[Crystal] I also feel this may be thematic with what we were discussing, too. Can you hear it?

[Frank] Might be what? What's the word?

[Crystal] Thematic --

[Frank] Thematic.

[Crystal] To what we were discussing just now.

[Frank] Look at you trying to relate everything together as if it was all connected.

[Crystal] Yes. Yes.

[Frank] All right, what is it? Do it.

[Crystal] I am doing it. [laughs]

[Frank] I can't hear.

[Crystal] Is it not loud enough? Oh, boy.

[Frank] I can't hear a thing, Crystal.

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] Is this is the existential void that you're actually trying to make me hear?

[Crystal] Wait, I'm trying to figure out my mic situation again. Hold on.

[Frank] Crystal.

[Crystal] Can you hear it?

[Frank] No. I heard like a -- no.

[Crystal] Wait, wait, wait, let me try it again. Let me try again.

[Frank] And so why don't we just say it's the unspoken words of the authors yet to have write -- written books?

[Crystal] Do you hear it?

[Frank] No.

[Crystal] Ah, all right. Well, it was --

[Frank] Do you hear it? I don't hear it.

[Crystal] It was my tarot cards.

[Frank] Oh.

[Crystal] And I was going to pull one for you. And I don't actually know how to do tarot reading, because --

[Frank] I can hear -- I did hear you flip something. It sounded like you were flipping, but it was [overlapping] --

[Crystal] Yes, and I was tapping the cards.

[Frank] It was very brief and I couldn't hear it. Well, actually I did a program a couple of weeks ago on tarot card reading. It was fun.

[Crystal] Oh, do you know how to do it?

[Frank] I think the tarot -- no.

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] But I -- and the woman talked about it a little bit. But I think tarot cards --

[Crystal] Really; okay.

[Frank] Are beautiful and artistically interesting.

[Crystal] Yes. I have this one called "Modern Witch," and I did have another one by the author of "The Magic Fish," which I also really like that's over on the shelf somewhere.

[Frank] I mean, to me tarot cards are like astrology. It's like any kind of data that can tell you something about yourself --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Which is [inaudible] on all these books, is interesting. And you know, you don't have to get bound and obsessed with it, but it's sort of just --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Tarot cards are sort of beautiful and I think it's a fun thing to do, which might illuminate something in one's brain.

[Crystal] Well ---

[Frank] So what card are you going to pull for me?

[Crystal] I will say I did do one reading for a friend, and all the stuff came true; like all positive stuff for her career. And then I did one reading for myself and I got the death card. So -- and I put it away [laughs] and did not touch it.

[Frank] Which doesn't mean physical death.

[Crystal] No, no, I think the -- because there's a little booklet. It was like a positive interpretation. But I was like --

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] "I don't like the way this looks. I'm not going to [overlapping]." [ Inaudible ] I think it was that, yes. But the art -- I got -- I -- I'm not like much of an astrological type person, but I do love art, and I got these cards specifically because I thought the art was beautiful.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] So I don't know how many we're supposed to normally pull. But I'm going to pull one for you and one for me -- [laughs]

[Frank] All right.

[Crystal] For maybe like as a hint of what's going to come in 2022. Which card do you want?

[Frank] Oh, you're holding to -- like choose [overlapping] --

[Crystal] Left or right; left hand or right hand?

[Frank] Left.

[Crystal] Okay. You got a five of cups; like here's the art. It's pretty nice.

[Frank] It means five martinis.

[Crystal] Is it what that meaning is?

[Frank] For the holiday season.

[Crystal] Wait, let me see what -- [ Inaudible ] Yes, I'll have to find it in this booklet. Give me about ten minutes to find it.

[Frank] Glad you came prepared.

[Crystal] Okay, five of cups, "Something important has been lost, and you're filled with soul-crushing sadness and despair.

[Frank] That's -- >> Maybe your relationship has ended, or you've been laid off work." That's not true. "Whatever it was has destroyed your hopes for the perfect future you had envisioned. It's okay to feel defeated and mourn. Sadness is part of the process. You'll start to feel hope again eventually, and there is more love waiting for you when you're ready."

[Frank] I know exactly what it means. And it relates to the book I read -- which I forgot before, is that I started getting this crazy, obsessive thought that like Jefferson Market Library was like my golden temple. And then I was obsessed with it. And I have felt -- because it's under renovation, I have felt a sort of separation from it and a loss of identity, and all that stuff.

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] I'll talk about it; and a loss of hope for the future because it was -- the building was so tied up in my future.

[Crystal] Yes. So the "more love waiting" is Jefferson Market and the relationship that's ended is Battery Park City?

[Frank] My current temporary branch, yes. It -- I also met somebody who introduced me to this book, the Mishima book, who made a big impact on me there. I didn't think I would need another librarian who I -- you know, in -- because I was at Jefferson Market so long and I did meet a lot of new people. But meeting someone at this other branch and talking about this book particularly was a profound experience. So losses, gains, I don't know.

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] That's really interesting, though, like when you pull that card and we could just discuss emotionally what it means is sort of cool. You know, and -- what?

[Crystal] No, go ahead.

[Frank] Oh, you were showing -- no you were showing the card. Do you put it --

[Crystal] Oh. Yes.

[Frank] Oh, it was your card, which is the queen of cups.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] What does that mean?

[Crystal] "A comforting and therapeutic guide. She is deeply in tune with the inner worlds of emotions. Highly empathetic and creative, she spends a lot of her time gazing out into the waters of the unconscious, and it might be difficult to keep her on solid ground. If this card is you, trust your intuition, and feelings, and creative endeavors. If you search within, you will find a wealth of creativity and inspiration that will guide you down the right pathway.

[Frank] That was a setup.

[Crystal] Doesn't sound like me.

[Frank] You preselected that card. [laughs]

[Crystal] That doesn't sound like me. [laughter]

[Frank] Who told you this stuff?

[Crystal] I think of myself as a robot.

[Frank] Wow. All right, well you take that for what you want it to mean, and [overlapping] --

[Crystal] And then after this, we're going to pull one for Christi.

[Frank] All right, let's knock this out. Happy New Year, everybody. Thank you --

[Crystal] Happy New Year.

[Frank] Thank you for this endurance tense -- endurance test known as "The Librarian Is In."

[Crystal] The library was in multiple times today. [laughs]

[Frank] Yes, we just have [overlapping] --

[Crystal] And out multiple times.

[Frank] Stuff at the beginning of this before we even started recording so that almost exhausted us. Well, I -- maybe -- all right maybe we'll meet in person and do this soon in person, but we'll see.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Anyway, 2021, [hums] we're out.

[Crystal] Yay.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to "The Librarian Is In," a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your host are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.