Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Hey all! We start this episode off with an announcement that in 2022 Crystal will be finding a new torment method for Frank retiring the ASMR guessing game. Something new will take its place, but we're not sure what yet. Stay tuned! 

Frank and Crystal have been (re)discovering old 90s sitcoms; Seinfeld for Crystal and The Nanny for Frank. 

For this week's reading, Frank read an essay, "Posthumous Shock" by Will Self in Harper's about trauma. 

This week Crystal listened to a few audiobooks (much to the joy of TLII's producer, who was an audiobook producer in a prevoius life). The main one she talked about is Royal Holiday, but all of those she mentioned are listed below.

Royal Holiday by Jasmine Guillory 

Accompanying her daughter to England to help style a royal family member during the Christmas season, Vivian finds herself in an unexpected holiday romance with the queen’s charming private secretary. (Publisher summary)

Arsenic and Adobo by Mia P. Manansala

Returning home to help save her Tita Rosie’s failing restaurant, Lila Macapagal is shocked when her ex-boyfriend, a notoriously nasty food critic, dies suddenly, moments after they had a confrontation, leaving her the only suspect. (Publisher summary)

The Dating Plan by Sara Desai 

A characteristically obedient Indian-American software engineer, determined to avoid a loveless arranged marriage by her traditional parents, enlists a childhood crush, required to marry in order to secure his inheritance, to be her decoy fiancé. (Publisher summary)

Happy Endings by Thien-Kim Lam

Determined to make her sex toy business a success, Trixie Nguyen teams up with her ex, a struggling restaurant owner, and, as both businesses pick up, they find their steamy truce turning into something more. (Publisher summary)

Accidentally Engaged by Farah Heron

Determined to marry for love in spite of her parents’ interfering matchmaking schemes, Reena Manji pretends to be engaged to a neighbor in her father’s employ in the hopes of winning a couples’ cooking competition (Publisher summary)

Pride Prejudice and Other Flavors by Sonali Dev

Acclaimed neurosurgeon, Dr. Trisha Raje, clashes with the new chef, DJ Caine, over pedigree, pride, and arrogance, but must find a common ground to save DJs sister. (Publisher summary)

Were you able to guess Crystal's ASMR object this week? (Hint: it's on this page.)

Don't forget to take out a copy of next episode's book club pick and read along with us!

Velvet Was the Night by Silvia Moreno-Garcia

In 1970s Mexico City, Maite, a secretary with a penchant for romance novels, searches for her missing neighbor, Leonora, a beautiful art student, which leads her to an eccentric gangster who longs to escape his own life, and together, they set out to discover the dangerous truth. (Publisher summary)

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I am Crystal.

[Frank] And I have an announcement to make. I'm sure everyone listening will be thrilled to hear that Crystal has told me she is no longer going to do ASMR by the end of the year. So in the new year, she said she will find new ways to torment me. But I think we can all agree that we're thrilled to pieces with the ASMR portion of this podcast is almost over.

[Crystal] Wait, I want to explain --

[Frank] Hallelujah, Hallelujah.

[Crystal] I want to explain why and I think some of this because now that I'm working in this office environment, I'm really running out of things [laughs]. And they're mostly the stuff that I have here, mostly just stationery. And I feel like the branch that I was working at Woodstock Library prior, we had like so many more fun objects, right, especially with the things I would make with the kids and the teens. And now I'm just like stationery, can I rattle some paper clips? I don't know [laughs].

[Frank] I mean, it's all like one object against another --

[Crystal] Well --

[Frank] -- at the end of the day.

[Crystal] Your complaint was really it's just fingernails tapping. It's all the sounds [laughs]. Which is, you know, one way to think about it, for sure. But this time, I have an object at the end where I will not be using any fingernails to do any tapping. So I heard your critique. I took it in. I've internalized it. And --

[Frank] Wow. [ Multiple Speakers ] -- I did. Okay.

[Crystal] So much power.

[Frank] Well, I guess that's later, I have that to look forward to. [ Laughter ] But a new year, a new Crystal.

[Crystal] What if it's --

[Frank] New format.

[Crystal] I know, yeah. What if it's something, and Christy's going to help me think of something, even though she says that she's not a part of this. What if it's something that you hate even more? You'll be begging for the ASMR to come back.

[Frank] No, it just occurred to me and I said it before we went on air, like for you to do the introduction, because I liked being in the role when I was with Gwen originally. Like she is the leader, and I am like the dumb follower [laughter]. And you are like firmly in this position of younger sister who's going to torment me, does not do what she doesn't want to do. And be willful and tap into all my own younger sister dramas. I actually have a younger sister. So I feel like this is some psychodrama playing out that's not going to end well for either one of us.

[Crystal] I mean, this is great for me because I am an older sister. And so I'm like, "Oh, this is like a role reversal."

[Frank] I don't think you're laughing, drinking from your mug and I'm hunched over the computer, like --

[Crystal] Just having some tea. Just sipping my tea -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank] -- pack it all in.

[Crystal] We're going to have fun time.

[Frank] I'm going with the flow. The flow is what I'm going with. And I'm going to work on it in my own way.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] You're like, "Okay, babe. Okay, babe." You're like -- you try that because I'm going to come and get you in some other way. Crystal revenge. Oh, man. I know -- again, I always like associate whatever we're talking about with whatever I've read. I do it all the time and maybe it's just that way. But -- I don't know. I'm sort of in a state right now. I mean, in terms of, you know, the boring thing about I'm at one branch still waiting for my branch to reopen from renovation and doing projects in both branches and trying to get things done in both branches and my loyalty to Jefferson Market and then my burgeoning loyalty to Battery Park City. It's like -- oddly, it sounds so straightforward, but it's like -- so I think it's wearing on me and that this sort of division of energies -- I don't know. I can't concentrate very well. I mean, I never really can, but I -- not especially lately.

[Crystal] Can you sever your loyalty to Battery Park City?

[Frank] I realize that how much I mean, I don't know if I said this already. But I realize in a sort of funny way when I was, "Oh, I love libraries." I think I did say this last time. I always [inaudible] myself. Because I got very involved -- Battery Park has got a modern recent building and it's antithesis physically of what Jefferson Market is. And, you know, I thought at first I wouldn't be able to get into it. But like I just have, and I've met a really great colleague there and we've been doing a lot of products together. It's just like people are reading and coming in again. And it's just like that was a good thing. I mean, that's the positive. It's like I realize -- and ultimately, it was -- I won't say good or bad. I'll just say it was an experience to after 20 years of working in other branch, which, yeah -- got to say has taught me some things because just that dislocation -- and my willingness to survive, and also libraries are libraries are libraries are libraries in a lot of ways. And at least maybe when I'm in charge [brief laughter], you know, I can [inaudible] a vision and I guess, yeah, for a while a vision for Battery Park City came to be. So yeah, but I don't know. I'm just trying to get -- it's just a lot of anxiety, I guess on [inaudible] so. I want everything to be perfect.

[Crystal] I will say like, you know, just getting to know you through this podcast, and also like, you know, knowing a lot of mutual colleagues and stuff like that, I feel like you're probably one of the like most dedicated like library workers that like I've ever met and known. And I think that's like such an admirable and like fantastic thing. But also as somebody who has like gone through those cycles of like loving my job and also hating it at certain points, it's also good to like maybe take a step back and kind of prioritize like your mental health, all that kind of stuff too because it seems like this, you know, if this is causing you anxiety, I think that's not necessarily like a great thing. And that said, I think in the future, maybe one of the books that we should read together, that I have just like heard about is this one called like Work Won't Love You Back by Sarah Jaffee. I feel like it would do all of us some justice.

[Frank] No, I hear you. And I definitely thought about it over the years, for sure. And I long time ago realized I was very identified with Jefferson Market and -- but I knew also that, just that we're -- I guess I wouldn't put it quite that way, but will say work doesn't love you back. I knew that. I mean, I was aware of it. But I also know you can't always avoid pain. You can't always avoid anxiety. I mean --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] It's just part of life. But I am conscious of it. I mean, I'm fully aware of that. And I'm aware of it. And I guess it mitigates like the anxiety for sure. The real thing is like after all the years of being in the library and being in charge, being a manager is that I realize for various reasons I just love to make things happen. Because you know how bureaucratic -- NYPL is a lovely place to work. There is always bureaucracy.

[Crystal] Yeah. It's just because it had the nature of how big and old it is too, right?

[Frank] Right. And -- but it is a lovely place. And get things done. So like if I worked with you and you had an idea and you really were passionate about it, like a passionate person is something I respond to, I would want to make that happen and then it would be just like whatever has to be has to be. And I'm very into that. Like I'll go to Battery Park or I'll go across the street to Target and buy a lamp because I'm just like it has to -- we need a lamp.

[Crystal] I've heard about this.

[Frank] Oh really?

[Crystal] Frank, yes.

[Frank] Oh, that anxiety is real because then it's like I have to work with multiple departments who are in charge of multiple different purview, like purchasing and capital planning and facilities. And I -- you need other people to help you make this happen sometimes -- I hope whatever I can do on my own, I will do on my own. Like I was patching a hole in the wall the other day with spackle and I didn't have to do that, but I figured it out and painted it. I was just like, "Get it done." And facilities were like, "We would have done that." I'm like, "Yeah, but I wanted to get it done." And there is also a pleasure in doing it yourself like that tactility and physical. Again it's very much I feel ownership and kinship and connection to the building itself by doing things like that, by adding a lamp or fixing a hole in the wall. But like as you say or the book says, it doesn't necessarily love you back but I know that. And like you said, you know, balancing mental health and work, the library is my life. [ Laughter ] I have no one in my life. And that's the way it has to be. So whatever --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Just talking about it makes you feel better, am I rise?

[Crystal] Yeah. May be that, I think that is great, though, you get like a lot of personal satisfaction in being able to kind of complete those jobs and do those things. And I think you are right in a lot of ways, like being able to do it yourself sometimes feels a lot better than like putting a bad ticket in facilities, can you put up -- [ Multiple Speakers ] -- that kind of stuff.

[Frank] And you know, at the end of the day, it's like, you -- one can try to live a balanced and as conscious life as possible. To me the key is consciousness. But I know I feel like I know enough that you can't foresee everything. So I think if like you're lying in your deathbed, and what regrets do you have? And like a common one is like I spent too much time at work and not enough with loved ones.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Like that. But I'm conscious of those disparities and feel like I won't be unduly surprised. Like I don't want that deathbed thing to be a shock. But I realize also that there is unforeseeable emotions percolating in all of us that can come to the surface when we least expect it. Which again, of course, relates to what I read. But I feel like the most conscious one can be is the only thing I can strive for. And that's what I always say too on this podcast, which is like, we have experience and we have language and that language helps us describe that experience. And how we do it is the big challenge of life to me. It's like -- that's why I like reading to give me more language and more concepts in language to define what actually is happening in my world, or the world or my relationship to the world and to myself. I think that's very valuable. And it's hard, but it's the only journey. And so that reflection -- one thing of what I read this time around mentions explicitly in it, and also reaffirmed something I think about, a very simple statement of like this concept of quality or contemplative reflection, which I think is the core of the anxiety, or anyone's anxiety in some ways is that things move quickly, or things don't move quickly enough. Like the thing is that it's not moving quickly for me in terms of getting things done in the library right now. But that's ebbs and flows of life. But I still can't reflect because I feel like I'm always thinking, because I know it might kick in soon. So there is like, you know, I'm sort of at sea right now, because I can't make things happen because of various reasons and things naturally have a moment where they're just at a standstill. And I feel like I even then can't relax because it could start up again Monday, like, you know, I could have all this stuff that I have to kick in and get ready to do. But that sense of reflection is so important. I mean, I read a very difficult piece for this to discuss today and much more difficult than I thought it would be. And I realized, yet again, there was not enough time to set aside for really reflecting on it. I mean, the last three days, I've been thinking about it, but I realized how deep it really can go. And I think just about anything we read that at least purports to be difficult or challenging required that. And I think that's when we feel like I'm lacking, but I don't think enough, or I can focus enough. What is that beating?

[Crystal] [laughs] Frank, I don't know. It's like weird construction.

[Frank] Now your -- my construction's line on my side and your construction is -- we're always under construction [laughing]. I'm telling you that my mother used to say that, she's actually like, "I'm always under construction," meaning she always had a project. She was always trying to do something. That's a good metaphor. We're always under construction. Human -- I'm actually talking and referring to something I've been mildly obsessed with, which I haven't thought about in 20 years, which is reruns of The Nanny. [ Laughter ] That's my like -- I actually laughed out loud for the first time in such a long time seeing that show, like not even really watching it in the '90s. But I was just like, "Oh my God." Again another thing about me. I like things that are past their due date or that are not aligned, or that are in the past. Like -- I can love something more if it's in the past. It can't hurt me or it's imperative to love them is past, like, something that's happening at the moment seems too much. I don't know. It's very interesting, but I always -- it's interesting and makes sense because when I was a kid I used to love things from 20 years before or 30 years before, and now it's still the same thing. So I --

[Crystal] Feel like a nostalgia factor?

[Frank] I think that's part of it. It's also just like the hopes striving and dreams of the people I'm watching are in the past and that doesn't impact me as harshly as it normally does. So again, reflection is required, but I don't really know what I'm saying. Anyway, I've enjoyed The Nanny. [inaudible] for nanny. Everyone out there is like the nanny [laughter].

[Crystal] Well, I will say on that subject, I've refound, well, not refound, I've discovered Seinfeld which I know is like such an important sitcom. And I just completely missed it the first time around or half a million times and then finally, I'm just like, "Oh, I started watching and it's great and hilarious and funny." So enjoying it.

[Frank] That's actually a great counterpoint because I was thinking about that the other day about Seinfeld and how it's so beloved. And I've watched it and appreciated it as a technical exercise and -- but I don't think I've ever laughed. And I think one of Jerry Seinfeld's motivations for that was just actually sort of go against the sort of sitcom routine of like everything is in a hug and that it's all -- everyone's always like a learning lesson at the end of the half hour. And you know, comedy, comedy, comedy, and then hugs. And he was sort of like, "I'm not doing that," like, people are flawed and crazy and weird and have edges. And that's a great concept. That's what I appreciate. But I don't ever find it funny. And when I was watching The Nanny, there was like, you know, stick, a lot of Jewish New York's stick, which I just adore. And there is the learning lesson and all that stuff. Like it's more classic sitcom format, but there is something about that I realize that is to love like it's sentimental. It's sort of like -- it's like their, you know, what Jerry Seinfeld wanted to go against is like they were all good people. They might snipe at each other. And they might make cracks about each other, but they all are good people and all care about each other. But Seinfeld basically doesn't do that. He's like they make cracks and snipe at each other, but they're not exactly coming to terms at the end of it. And that sort of individual achievement of that sitcom, but I can't laugh at it for some reason. I can appreciate it, but I can't be like "haha" - this laugher.

[Crystal] I think that's interesting thinking about the things that I recognize mentally as funny and amusing, and enjoy and then things that I actually laugh out loud at. And sometimes they're very different. Sometimes I think the more absurdist things like will get me to laugh out loud or over the top things that maybe are not as good, but just so wild that you're like I can't not laugh at this. Yeah.

[Frank] It's interesting. And it's also what catches you at the right time like the right book at the right time. Like I just came across this odd channel that I happen to get, you know, not cable, but it's antenna. And they were like a series of The Nannies and I was like, "All right." And then I was like sitting on that and like, "Oh, oh," and she's like, "Ba-da-bum-dum." And I was like, "Hahahaha." It's hilarious, actually.

[Crystal] The same, like, time revisiting -- I know like Seinfeld's on Netflix now I think but I just revisit because I have a TV on and it's just whatever is playing, I'm like, "Oh okay, I'll just sit and watch this." And that feels also very like nostalgic thinking about when I was young, just in the evenings, watching like Friends in the mornings, on the weekends watching cartoons, all that kind of stuff.

[Frank] I mean, that was actually -- talk about like the change in times, because I remember it, I guess it was the '90s, late '90s. I went to the gym or somewhere. And it was so quiet and there was like no one around. And I realized it was the finale of Seinfeld. Like everybody was watching. [ Multiple Speakers ] -- enough people to notice that certain areas of the city were empty because people were watching it. And that's something that cannot exist anymore. I mean, just can't, like that kind of communal we're in it together because of various ways to watch things. And I think I read somewhere that like, you know, people would -- like 50 to 60 million people would watch, you know, before streaming and all that. 50 to 60 million people would watch an episode of a TV show. Whereas the finale of Game of Thrones is like 10 million people, because of the disparate ways of watching things [ Multiple Speakers ] -- platforms and all that stuff. Before it was like three networks, blah, blah, blah. And there is a virtue in that, sure, about like that communality that we all have the same share, history, but I don't know, doesn't make it better.

[Crystal] You know it's weird because I also think even though it's all kind of what's the word like, maybe separated out and see those different apps like HBO, et cetera, I feel like people's thoughts about those shows are more amplified through social media. So it almost feels like the response seems bigger due to that kind of amplification in like Twitter and things like that, versus when people were just at home watching the final episode of Seinfeld or other things, you know. But I can be wrong too.

[Frank] Meaning, are you saying that it seems more people are engaged because of the amplification of social media?

[Crystal] Yeah, or maybe, I mean, to be fair, I think the final episode of Seinfeld was like definitely not on my radar. But it seems like the conversation around Game of Thrones is so huge, considering the amount of people who are watching it, compared to maybe like in the past other shows that had like maybe more people who were watching it, but didn't have those ways of connecting online to have those kinds of conversations and those forums. It was more like dependent on word of mouth perhaps, or other things like that.

[Frank] Well --

[Crystal] We should just make -- [ Multiple Speakers ] -- TV. We don't need to talk about --

[Frank] All right. I can actually -- I know, I always go first [inaudible] before --

[Crystal] No, no, no, we should keep going on television.

[Frank] Well, you know what? We could actually. I mean, why not? But I did read something that relates to social media and a lot of the things that we mentioned, but --

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] As I said, I've had like trouble figuring out what to read and I've read a couple things that is, I mean that just didn't pursue as something to discuss. But you know, I've been wanting to read articles, and I have subscriptions to different magazines. And an article in Harper's, which I subscribe to -- getting the paper magazines like New Yorker, Harper's is so thrilling to me. And actually, the cover story on this month's edition is by Will Self, the novelist and author. And it's basically called "How everything became trauma." Actually, the cover is against trauma, how an obscure psychological theory took over our lives. And I was like, "That sounds interesting," because I thought it was going to be something about like what I talked about a lot like the word trauma and what it means to become different things and how he was going to possibly discuss language and how we've talked about our lives, and how I thought he might be sort of challenging like we shouldn't say this is trauma when it really isn't. You know, what I mean like we become accustomed to using certain words that might have been diluted or changed from their original intent. It wasn't quite that, it was much more literary, like I talked about nothing of [inaudible]. It's a very academic, for lack of a better word, written article where you really need a dictionary sometimes to get into. I'm surprise slightly in a sort of general interest magazine, but like literate magazine, the so-called jargon or terms of the literary critical landscape is very present that, you know, when you could say the word true, he would say, you know, viridness [phonetic] which I looked up and it means something that's true. But then to him and his world, again, for lack of a better word, that word viridness might mean something more specific than just saying true. I don't want to [inaudible] him for that. Like it's easy to say, "Oh, my God." Like I had a colleague try to read it too so we could discuss it. And she was like, "Wow, this is hard to get through." And I don't fault him for that. I don't want to be critical of that because it's how he's expressing himself and I want to try to understand him on his own terms as best as I can. I think you really, in some ways, need a background in certain things because he does talk about literary critics like Derrida, who I don't know a lot about and poststructuralist and things like that. They can easily put you off. But I kept pursuing it because I wanted to try to see if I could get to the nub of what he's talking about. And I don't know if I did that, but I'll just try. So, you know, I even have three pages of notes. And I don't know. I don't even know how to start. But he basically says like the concept of trauma, which to him, as he says, is something that's very prevalent in popular psychology, and that to affect a lot of people saying that they've been through it. He immediately makes a distinction between suffering and trauma that you know, suffering is through the ages and it's for all people. We all go through that. Trauma is something more specific which relates to going through a shock physically or psychically that then in the future has a recurrent sort of feedback that you experience it again through memory or triggers. And sometimes even -- don't even remember the original shock that memory is suppressed. And it's just a physical manifestation or psychic manifestation of that shock. So it's not just suffering in the moment. There is this lifelong sort of reference to that initial shock or trauma. And certainly he doesn't dispute that trauma exists. This is where it was -- he's really referring to something that I'm not that aware of that there is in the literary criticism community, a way of looking at literature through the ages, like through the ancient Greeks own up through the lens of trauma, that all the participants in these dramas or fictions or works can be said to have suffered trauma because it is a universal human experience. And what Will Self is saying is that it's not, that trauma is a symptom of modernity of the modern world, meaning the post-industrial world, 1800s on, when Industrial Revolution sort of skyrocketed technology really fast. And as we well know, because we discuss it and live it, this century has also skyrocketed technologically. And he says that's really where that definition of the sort of DSM-V, the diagnostic mental disorders statistical book defines trauma as this recurring experience. So then he tries to discuss like -- or he does discuss, and I try to understand [laughs] what this all means. And it's interesting because he says, he sort of pinpoints the beginning of modernity and then trauma as again, the invention of railways. And I talked about railroads before as the importance -- it imprints on us. And it definitely does make the case and reminder that how technology does change us especially this railway situation. So he talks about actually, Charles Dickens of all people, writing about being in a railroad accident. And you know, after the crash was over, he was fine, felt fine and sought to help other people. And then wrote about how days later he started having physical tremors and didn't understand why and he thought it was a result, a delayed result of the trauma of the railroad crash. And because of that -- at that time, the medical world could not conceive of trauma in any other way but physical, they came up with this concept of railway spine, which physically means that you didn't have a physical injury to the crash, but it compressed your spine in such a way that days, weeks, months later, it manifested physically into physical tremors or headaches or something physical that can be traced back to the original accident even though it didn't have immediate injury. So that's sort of the working definition of trauma right there in a physical sense. And then it came to mean emotional. And he does have a sidebar, Will Self in the article about how the insurance world grew up around this because eventually when this idea of trauma was accepted that, but there were no physical manifestations, one had to prove psychic recurring damage to get insurance. Like, you know, like people sue people and say I had emotional distress and recurring nightmares and an issue resulted from this original trauma. So that's what Will Self does. And it's very academic about it and it's a challenge to read. And there is a lot -- I kept going back to the article in different spots and I was like, "Oh, wow, I don't remember that part," like things really did pop up. And then it's sometimes hard for me at least to accept an academic argument because it's hard for me to relate to myself and my experience and then I always feel like [inaudible] it's related to yourself. But I want to understand it to see if it, I guess useful to understand existence. So it's tough because he talks also about photography and, you know, the industrial rise of photography. And this is where it gets interesting because initially, I was just like, "Huh," because he sort of talks about how we have a subjective view of the world, our own personal experience living in the world. And then a picture is taken of us, like early daguerreotype onto selfies today. And he says, there is a free thought or like an emotional sense of fear/thrill about looking at a photograph of oneself because now the photograph is an objective view. You can see the details behind you. You can see the details around you. You can see yourself separate from your subjective experience. And he says that that tension is serious, that it's a psychic thing that occurs to us. And so that's something that didn't exist pre-modernity, let's say. And so that, in and of itself, is a psychic division between subjective and objective that causes trauma, or can give rise to trauma. Because he really thinks that culture today is a globally traumatogenic situation that we live in a traumatic world, because of acceleration of photography and information. And he goes into social media about -- he even talks about social media, on TikTok, there is a lot of "people" but "therapists" who give -- I haven't seen these but give advice on how to recognize trauma in yourself. And he points out this is a very academic article, how the medium is the message, how TikTok is talking about how to recognize and deal with trauma in yourself, but yet, the whole concept of TikTok is causing a traumatic feeling in people in that -- oh, I just lost the thread. Because I saw you thinking and you're about to say -- were you going to say something? Oh, no, the social media like the -- because it's the acceleration and multiplicity of these images and videos and informational sources that sort of are subjective/objective at the same time, like we identify, we talked about this earlier in this conversation, but yet we are not part of. So he says that these platforms of social media are, among other technological advances, seemingly safe. They make us feel safe and good. I mean, that's really good. They were made to do, keep us coming back to because we get these pings of say, a feeling of good feeling. But there is always an underlying anxiety. And we talk about that with Instagram, because we like go to these Instagram places where people are living great lives, and we admire them and it makes us feel cozy, but then there is an anxiety of like my life is not like that. And you know, this discussion of teenage girls and aspects of beauty that are presented in Instagram and all that. It raised all of that up. And he says this kind of traumatic response did not exist pre-modernity. Suffering certainly did. But this, I think, dislocation almost from nature. And then what if thought has brought on because -- and it's sort of true, like after the shutdown and stuff I got -- I used to go down YouTube and Reddit polls, and I never did those things before. And it was addictive, but it wasn't ultimately satisfying. We would just feel sort of like when you went away from it, you were like almost having the delirium tremens of recovery from an addiction. Like I don't know what I just did watching all the stuff. And you can't process the sort of dislocation of seeing such things that seems so feelingly real, but yet are separate from you. And that dislocation between the two is something he says causes trauma. Yeah, thoughts, comments, questions?

[Crystal] I mean, I think it's interesting. I really want to read this article now. I think some of the stuff like the rise and like information how it's passed around, I feel like those are things that I have heard about and considered. I think what you were saying about the -- maybe like the images of the self and how that kind of dislocation or whatever is something I've like never thought about and it's like so interesting. I want to explore that more. But I mean 100% with the, you know, with the social media that it's like the dopamine hits as you finish scrolling through things. But then feeling that internal anxiety of, yeah, placing yourself in relation to all the stuff that's happening that seems to be happening in these other worlds. And I guess it is with the story sort of reality too that is being presented that is not rooted in what is actually happening perhaps. I don't know. Does he offer any like hopeful solutions or any -- probably not, right, or a solution?

[Frank] Well, I think actually the one solution I think that he offers which is probably the most simplest and hardest thing to put forward is that sense of reflection of think before you do, think before you speak, think before you act. And it's sort of the only thing we've got to contemplate that. That's why I think we started off saying that kind of thing. He also does go into a -- and just -- I mean there's a lot here, there's more that I can even cover. I'm looking at some notes and stuff but one thing that I kept thinking of was episodes of "Oprah Winfrey" of "The Oprah Show." It's like and he talks of not about Oprah Winfrey, but he talks about something that you apply to that kind of show. That trauma also became a -- even though it was divorce from Christianity or Judeo-Christianity, it followed the same sort of process that trauma was something that should be embraced and then healed from. And then all the narrative is that then you become a better person. You become purified, you become wise. So you go through this trauma, heal from it, and then you're better. So like the guests on "Oprah Winfrey" would be like, you know, "I had this terrible thing happen, now I'm good, I understand better." And that saying it out loud sounds well, what's wrong with that? And he's sort of saying that it's a narrative that we force ourselves into and if we don't -- if it doesn't happen that way it's traumatic itself, you know what I mean?

[Crystal] Okay, I see.

[Frank] It's not as simplistic as that I don't think. And he also said that kind of narrative was -- did not exist pre-modernity that people didn't look at life as a long linear stretch into the future of progress that we were going to get better and better and better and better. It was much more cyclical, and I guess more related to nature or seasons and that it wasn't something it -- and that they even looked at their predecessors as being wiser and better than them. That they were sort of like struggling to be as good, that they weren't better than. It wasn't just linear sense of progression which now there is. It's like you have to learn from and get better and be better from your suffering, which is Christ --

[Crystal] Do you --?

[Frank] -- who did it for us.

[Crystal] Now, I'm also wondering too if some of that is just like this very American idea of like, you know. I guess maybe it's something just like the American dream like your children will do better than you and all that kind of stuff like, I don't know.

[Frank] So I think you're right actually because he talks of -- another aspect he talks about which is tough to talk about. But that in the '70s and '80s and apparently recurring now there was this rise in like, what's the word, false memory. Well, false memory syndrome came out of this but like a sort of repressed memory syndrome that people were reporting remembering intense abuse that they had forgotten. And then it was attributed to, believe it or not, satanic rituals that there were nationwide networks of satanic cabals that were abusing children as a phenomenon.

[Crystal] This was like a -- there weren't warrants, right? It was just like this is what they were attributing it to?

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] Well, exactly. And people were discovering repressed memories of this abuse. And what -- and he said this is -- was a phenomenon pretty much strictly limited to the United States, a little bit in the UK.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] So that reminded me when you said that. And that this is another component of it that he thinks is modern is that is terrible to think about but that the abuse was real, but there was an inability to just accept the simpler notion that abuse is real. It had to be put into a narrative of satanic rituals because we could not confront the actual actuality of it.

[Crystal] Does he talk about, this sounds weird, like UFO things?

[Frank] No.

[Crystal] Because I have like a friend who makes -- I remember at one point she was very like -- there was something that she was researching a lot and I don't remember the sources. But she was telling me about how there is that speculation that people who have recounts of like alien abductions. It's a similar thing where they have gone through this kind of abuse or something it's repressed. And this is a narrative that they can tell and like an outlet for that or something in some way much like the satanic cults, which was like something that I never really consider or thought about but also feels like a very American thing too. I don't know.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean this -- again, it has to be remembered that he's not talking about like sort of popular, it has trickled down to popular psychology. But this is originally like a literary criticism like of a theory, a literary theory that this trauma theory was developed to look at literature and to look at the literary landscape, a way of reading text and it became a sort of popular psychology thing. There's a lot more here, I mean it is an interesting article. If not for any other reason than to try to understand what this man is saying, to really see if you can -- one can understand it. And I found that challenging and I do like that. And I like how again, I read it at least two times and then in pieces third time it gets more and more into my head, and more solid that I can understand it. Whether I agree with it or not, or feel like it has impact on life, I don't know, but I appreciate the input. I feel like that in some ways then again, you had to -- people had to have experienced trauma as he describes it today. Because he also takes issue with the psychological definition of PTSD as not being very solid, that it's, you know, like you could take it apart and say well exactly what are you talking about here? And psychology I think lends itself to that because God knows we try to figure it out and it's hard to as opposed you break a bone it's pretty literal what you're talking about, rather than a break in your psyche how difficult that is. And he talks about schizophrenia how that was an undiagnosed thing for years and years and years then it became something that we could refer to as legitimate, but how difficult that process is. I think ultimately about this trauma thing he's talking about living in technological bubbles like the train. You're in a train and especially at this point the so commonplace that we can now be bored and read a magazine or a book or, you know, try to deal with the boredom of being on a train. And then when that train does have an accident, God forbid, it's a shock to the system because your safety bubble, something that's safety because there's always the underlying anxiety because well we get on a plane sometimes and fall asleep but there's the underlying anxiety what's going to happen. And when something does happen that's the trauma. And he's saying that technology today is a techno-bubble and then when that gets pulled out from us it's traumatic. So what is that?

[Crystal] Don't know.

[Frank] That is music, it's a --

[Crystal] -- Honking.

[Frank] Honking horn. You just brought me out of it. And that's something to think about but I can't quite grasp it fully all the time.

[Crystal] Does he have a book? I feel like sometimes with these things is like I think articles are so condensed. I'm like I want you to really explain this to me in a book.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] There's like plenty of examples --

[Frank] -- Maybe he will.

[Crystal] -- like that. That'd be great, yeah.

[Frank] Will Self, he's written novels for sure and nonfiction. And he has talked about social media before, but interesting food for thought. I could as usual go on and on and I'm glad I got something out. It's so helpful to talk about it when you talk like the top of the show talking about my own anxiety and then talking about an article that's tough to read. I didn't even think I'd be able to articulate what it was about. But thanks for listening, Crystal.

[Crystal] I think we did a good job of articulating it and making you understand it. [Christy:] You know you're the oldest sister. Thank you. That's for putting that all younger brother.

[Frank] All right. So your --

[Crystal] -- Okay. Yes. So thinking about like what you had said earlier to about this like feeling of not like in the headspace to read and all that kind of stuff. I liked how you sort of like really leaned into the reading by reading something really difficult. I went out and I didn't even bother reading with my eyes, I read with my ears and I listened to a bunch of audiobooks and I also liked how in our last episode or episode before. Christy's dancing. You talked about, oh, when we did the cozy theme and that like put you in so much turmoil, I like really leaned into that. And that lets like a bunch of these other books that I found which I read "Dial A for Aunties" and then after that also a list of a bunch of books I like listen to since then. And then I went to the other one that has like a bunch of double A's, "Arsenic and Adobo" by Mia P. Manansala. Then I read "The Dating Plan" by Sara Desai, "Happy Endings" by Thien-Kim Lam. "Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors" by Sonali Dev and the second one to that --

[Frank] -- Wait, what? Pride what?

[Crystal] "Pride, Prejudice, and Other Flavors."

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] And then there is like a series and is kind of like short retellings of the Jane Austen book, the second one is "Recipe for Persuasion" which is based on persuasion of course. "Accidentally Engaged" by Farah Heron. And the one I want to talk a little bit more about was "Royal Holiday" by Jasmine Guillory. But I heard these were like the perfect books for A, like this kind of weird time we're in leading into a lot of holiday breaks and also this weird, I don't know if it's like the COVID pandemic the feeling a little like burnt out on some things and you just want something like really light, friendly and fun to read. And of course like with these books in particular which I'm convinced a lot of them had the same narrator in the audiobooks but I could be wrong because I like to listen to them at 2.5 times the speed. Just because I feel like that mirrors like the pace of reading that I usually experience although it does get a little bit wacky. But a lot of them like they have very similar through lines, you know, a lot of romance tropes. Like these are all generally in the romance drama with "Arsenic and Adobo" I think just being a mystery book. You have like engagement storylines, meddling relatives, protagonist of color, right, and some interracial relationships too. Which I will say as somebody who has --

[Frank] -- Inter what? Sorry.

[Crystal] Interracial relationships.

[Frank] Oh, okay.

[Crystal] Yeah. And that this is common. And I don't know if I like talked about this previously and if I have let me know. When I was really young, I used to read a lot of romance books. And I think there was something about like this aspect of, you know, when you're a teen and growing up just like feeling like there's so many pressures. And with romance books, it's like people aren't dying in it, you know, in the same kinds of ways that like other books. And there's always a happy ending and you know what you're getting with those. It was a very comforting kind of thing for me. But looking back on a lot of those books I read I recognize now how like problematic some of them were, you know. Like I forget the author, but I remember reading these theories where it would be some male CEO boss and it would be a relationship with a secretary, right, who is female and the kind of uneven power dynamics of that. A lot of chain-smoking cigarettes which obviously nowadays is something we're just like not necessarily great or healthy. And certainly like very, very white characters and I think when there were characters of color that were brought in it was really brought in, in kind of problematic ways especially with like Native American characters. Certainly with I think Asian characters like being very like ostracized, strategized things like that. And then also reading a lot of books that are so set in like Regency, Edwardian times. I still read those books but then kind of in hindsight recognizing how like that kind of wealth in the UK in that time period was really built on colonization and how that's never really kind of discussed in those books. Which I understand, because it is about like romance and you're not like really thinking about those things, right? So these more modern-day ones I think all of these were probably published within the last couple of years offers this other side of the romance industry that I am glad to see and to be able to kind of go back into that genre and see that kind of representation. And for me, I think more contemporary storylines which I really appreciate. There's a lot of food in these books as well which I also --

[Frank] -- Considering what you just said like the -- but would you say the basic elements that you loved about romance when you were a kid are still present in the books of today, except we've had more diverse peopling of the books and more -- or no?

[Crystal] Yes. Yeah, we have. Well, the thing that I enjoy about romance, one of the tropes, right, because it is that thing of like your mind just follows that in some ways, and you kind of understand where it's going. So I guess it's like the language of genre like you talk a lot about language in like very like, you know, intelligent ways. But I do feel like this is a different kind of language that's happening where through these kinds of tropes like we kind of know what's happening. And I think I enjoy that consistency.

[Frank] You know that's true. I wonder what that is about people or the article I read like I was lost sometimes in it because I wasn't sure where I should be citing. Like I wasn't -- when he was citing different authors I wasn't like -- I was like, "Wait, does he agree with this one or disagree with them?" And like it was hard for me to figure out for a while and that was very dislocating. And so I see the comfort of that. I wonder why -- that's me, that's something to analyze in itself like it's comforting to know what's going to happen I guess because life is so unpredictable, I don't know. But like, yeah, we want to know where to put our alliances. And that's -- and also what's weird about "Seinfeld" is that it doesn't allow you to really identify with those characters because they always do something that's like what, you know, so off. You can't really just be like, "Oh, I know how this is going to end," except you know it's going to end weirdly.

[Crystal] Well, no. I would disagree with that about "Seinfeld" because I do find there are certain -- and to be fair like I'm watching "Seinfeld" I don't know like how many years later, right? And I think it has influenced so much in television and that has -- the television that I watch and understand. But so looking back and rewatching or watching them for the first time in this day and age I do see the pathways of like certain setups, I mean like oh I see where this is going. But I don't know if I would have felt the same way if I had watched it in its original time period where they had been much more new, right? Because I think it has influenced kind of the language of like what that genre does now if that makes sense, I don't know.

[Frank] Yeah. Interesting.

[Crystal] Yeah. Well, we should do a whole episode on "Seinfeld," it's such an interesting show.

[Frank] Oh my God!

[Crystal] You're like, "No, no."

[Frank] No. So wait, Royal -- what is it, Royal Jasmine Guillory?

[Crystal] The one I --

[Frank] Royal what?

[Crystal] "Royal Holiday" by Jasmine Guillory.

[Frank] "Royal Holiday."

[Crystal] And the one that -- the reason why like I think that one was a little bit more -- I think they're all special in their own different ways but a little bit more interesting was because the protagonist was an older woman. So she is I think like 54, 55, and she has a grown adult daughter. And her daughter goes to England to I think help with the royal wedding or something. But while she's there she like has her mom come with her and her mom meets Malcolm Hudson who is the private secretary of the Queen of England, you know. And I think that this also hits certain things that I'm really missing with one being like travel, you know, in this time I have not like traveled except to see my family for the last couple of years. And there is this kind of thrill of like living vicariously through this person who is traveling to a different country. And the other thing that I really enjoyed about this and partially I think because these are older characters is that it's a love coma over romance. Like for example, one of the ones I read, "Recipe for Persuasion," which I thought was like fantastic by Sonali Dev. It's a pretty wild book like they don't want to show Ashna as a chef, she -- her ex is like -- his name is Rico, he's like this soccer player. And they go on the show called "Cooking with the Stars" much like "Dancing with the Stars." And there's a lot of really extreme things that happen including like big family secrets and I almost feel like there should be a trigger warning first in the things that come out in it. Whereas I think "Royal Holiday," it's just like two people who are in some ways like getting to know each other and really enjoy spending time with each other and a romance develops out of that. And I really appreciate that it was very realistic in that way even though maybe some of the aspects of like the queen and the setting were not maybe as realistic. But two characters who genuinely like each other who are invested in each other and find different ways to help each other through personal life problems is something that I did find like very comforting as a read. And maybe something that I am usually not reading when it comes to romances because I tend to find the like really dramatic ones to be very interesting and kind of amusing. So I recommend this one. This was a -- go ahead.

[Frank] A protagonist who was 55 years old, the romantic figure in this book was 55 years old? Please say it's true.

[Crystal] Yes, yes, yes.

[Frank] Really!

[Crystal] Yes!

[Frank] And with a guy the same age?

[Crystal] And I don't remember what age the guy was. He did have a teenage nephew so --

[Frank] Right and you think they're around the same age?

[Crystal] I think so, yes.

[Frank] It wasn't about the age difference, it was --?

[Crystal] -- I don't think so. Now I do have to say like this is --

[Frank] -- Yeah. Didn't you read the book? Urgh!

[Crystal] Now, here's the other issue. Because I felt like I went through a bunch of these so quickly I feel like I'm also conflating a lot of these books. And I also realize too like even though there are real strengths to listening to audiobooks I enjoy, for example, I think of course like it relies on like how good the narrator is, and luckily the ones that I was listening to the narrating was very good. The characters feel a lot more real, right, and I appreciate that aspect because you are hearing their words through a particular voice. But I did have some struggle like placing certain aspects of the book because I think when I read there's something about the visual act of seeing the word on the page, seeing like where that book is in relation to, you know, the book itself. I feel like I'm able to like be anchored that way and listening to it. I don't know. It just doesn't anchor me in the same way if that makes sense.

[Frank] That's why you have to read. Are you also doing other things when you're listening? You're probably doing other things.

[Crystal] Yeah. Usually, I'm like walking, you know, like during my commute situation, so.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] You know which is great and practical but, yeah, if somebody suddenly starts singing on the train you miss moments, right? You don't like you don't always pause the same way with a book where you can just like put your finger there and then look up, et cetera. So this is very new to me. I will say this is like the first time that I'm really kind of investing in audiobooks. And in the past I just had very, very rarely done it because I also don't think of myself as a very like oral or ear listening based like learner, I like to see things written down. And that's the best way for information to be communicated to me because I'm able to like hold onto it better in a lot of ways, so yeah. But I enjoy this book. I recommend it for people who do like romance books is number 4 in the series with the first one being "The Wedding Date" which I have heard great things about. "The Proposal," "The Wedding Party" and then there's like two more after that "Party of Two" and then this year "While We Were Dating" came out. I did look at some reviews of "Royal Holiday" and it's interesting because it seems very split. Like people like me who like really enjoyed it and others who were disappointed. And I got the sense the people who were disappointed by it were people who had read other books in the series and it didn't meet their expectations, which to me I'm just like I think that means that Jasmine Guillory is like a great writer. Because I actually enjoyed this one, so I can only imagine how her previous books will hit and I never read them before. So yeah, I'm checking those out.

[Frank] Jasmine Guillory.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] The queen. Are you getting ready?

[Crystal] Getting ready for -- yeah. I'm touching the objects right now. That sounds terrible but --

[Frank] That's more like terrified. I'm like, yeah, but -- all right.

[Crystal] Okay. Wait, wait.

[Frank] Do it.

[Crystal] I have this -- let me get comfortable.

[Frank] We got a couple of more of these to endure.

[Crystal] Again, you mean like the thing that comes after. So I would be happy to --

[Frank] -- I will get there when I get there, one thing at a time.

[Crystal] [brief laughter] Okay. Okay, let me see if this will work because I don't -- okay. Can you hear it?

[Frank] Yeah. [ Paper Crunching ] It feels like you're digging your hands into a box of cut paper. Or like --

[Crystal] -- Oh, okay.

[Frank] -- I keep seeing these like ribbons of paper in a box that you're sifting through with your fingers. Or it's something metallic, I don't know. It has a watery sound in a way or a slick sound.

[Crystal] Okay. I'm really liking these guesses. I feel like putting them all together will get you to the answer but the idea of a collection of things. You want to see it?

[Frank] Sure. Sure. Oh, the plant!

[Crystal] Oh, you're surprised. Yes.

[Frank] You were -- oh, you're just shaking the plant?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] I'm not tapping it.

[Frank] Right. It sounded like your hand -- actually what it -- like I said your hands running through separate pieces of paper like I was saying. Which could have been what you were doing because going -- running through the leaves of the plant but you were just shaking it, so that's similar. Okay, good. That's done.

[Crystal] It's a Neon Pothos.

[Frank] That was a creative one rather than just like oh, I'm a plastic comb I'm fluffing up.

[Crystal] Isn't it? Isn't it? Hey, first of all, that plastic comb was fluffing up my cat who is beautiful. And I -- don't you dare say anything against Pablo.

[Frank] And you're holding the plant as if you were to toss it at my head.

[Crystal] If you're in this room, right, no, I would never do this to my other baby, this beautiful green plant.

[Frank] Aw! You're petting your plant.

[Crystal] Absolutely.

[Frank] It actually looks very lovely and healthy which is a good sign for you as a good person. So the plant --

[Crystal] So I mean it is one of the most easy to care for plants, I don't know.

[Frank] Not just within my area he has killed so many plants I don't know why.

[Crystal] Aw! This one is all right. Yeah.

[Frank] Well, that was a thrill. [brief laughter] It feels like wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. We should announce our -- all right. So we're talking for days but as everyone will know the -- well, has known by now the best books for -- that the best books of 2021 the New York Public Library's best books adults, teens and children 2021 has arrived and Crystal and I are going to read on them.

[Crystal] Every single book on that list, right?

[Frank] Well, I wasn't on any of the committees this year so I had -- did not. But were you --

[Crystal] -- I was on the comics' one. Yeah, so there's 10 comic books listed there.

[Frank] For the division that you were a part of that. That's like poetry, memoir, fiction, children's, teens the whole caboodle for best books of 2021. And Crystal and I are going to read one of the books on that list.

[Crystal] All of them.

[Frank] By Silvia Moreno-Garcia who wrote "Mexican Gothic" which I discussed in the podcast before your time dear. Wasn't with you I think it was Rhonda.

[Crystal] Rhonda, yeah.

[Frank] And she obviously has another book called, what is it called, called "Velvet Was the Night" by Silvia Moreno-Garcia, which sounds like romance-ish. We'll find out. But knowing Silvia Moreno-Garcia, "Mexican Gothic" was a horrory book.

[Crystal] Oh, it's horror. No, Frank.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] If it turns --

[Frank] -- And so "Velvet Was the Night" sounds a little film noir, a little like hard-boil so we'll see. So we're going to read "Velvet Was the Night" by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. Garcia. Yeah.

[Crystal] I'm excited.

[Frank] Okay. [Christy:] Thanks, everybody, for listening. Hope you're still awake.

[Frank] [brief laughter] Or on that treadmill making it happen and see you next week.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.