Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In! In the last episode Frank surprised Crystal by choosing this month's book club pick—a debut novel by Nghi Vo set in the Jazz Age that retells The Great Gatsby from the perspective of Daisy's friend, Jordan Baker. Take a listen to hear what they thought. Also, please join us for a conversationwith Nghi Vo about the book hosted by WNYC's Alison Stewart of All of It

The Chosen and the Beautiful by Nghi Vo

Immigrant. Socialite. Magician. Jordan Baker grows up in the most rarefied circles of 1920s American society—she has money, education, a killer golf handicap, and invitations to some of the most exclusive parties of the Jazz Age. She's also queer and Asian, a Vietnamese adoptee treated as an exotic attraction by her peers, while the most important doors remain closed to her. But the world is full of wonders: infernal pacts and dazzling illusions, lost ghosts and elemental mysteries. In all paper is fire, and Jordan can burn the cut paper heart out of a man. She just has to learn how. (Publisher summary.)

Were you able to guess the subject of Crystal's ASMR challenge this week?

See you next week!

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, welcome to The Librarian is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. Hi, I'm Frank.

[Laughter] And you're?

[Crystal] I'm Crystal. [laughing] [inaudible] go with this, right?

[Frank] Legally. Legally Crystal. Actually, it's all -- I don't want to insult anybody vaguely Midwestern, which probably just did insult Midwestern people listening to this. This is terrible. Just like [sound effect] we're Southern, which actually figures in the book. Southern and Midwestern.

[Crystal] Or maybe like a little mid-Atlantic, that accent that Katharine Hepburn does?

[Frank] That's -- yes! Exactly. Like what did you say? Catharine Hepburn?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I -- yeah.

[Frank] Like that Hollywood accent.

[Crystal] Yeah. Or like the --

[Frank] Like --

[Crystal] -- lot of like newsmen -- news people. Journalists!

[Frank] [inaudible] Welcome to the news of the world.

[Laughter] We're live from New York City, City of Dreams, City of Hopes. Sparkling lights of betrayal and despair.

[Laughter] Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm all over the place. We're recording a little later today, and it's hot out, so I feel up for -- I feel anything could happen. [laughing]

[Crystal] And I've been traveling, and I've encountered all my dead plants from vacation, so it was a rough day.

[Frank] You traveled, and then you returned home to death.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Dead plants greeted you.

[Crystal] Definitely dust.

[Frank] That's a metaphor. [laughing] Oh my God, we're all over the place emotionally, aren't we, which always relates to any book probably -- emotions. Or the books I tend to read. Anyway. It's not like straightforward A plus B equals C, but I don't like reading those kind of books. So you're okay though?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Travel wise, you're settled, and you've recovered from the green death --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- in your apartment? [laughing]

[Crystal] Back in New York. Hurray.

[Frank] Back in New York.

[Laughter]

[Frank] Now travel, I still haven't traveled at all --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] -- as I've mentioned before. Many trips have passed -- that were planned -- that passed by, but I haven't -- you know, I'll do it when I do it. I keep saying travel will happen organically. Who knows? The Fall will be like I'm thinking 2022 --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] -- at this point, especially with Jefferson Market reopening and --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] --what the Fall will be like in terms of the public and all of those.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] But you know, we'll get there when we get there. [singing] One day at a time, sweet Jesus. Can I sing that again?

[Crystal] Take it slow, yes.

[Frank] So here we are with The Chosen and the Beautiful by Nghi Vo. The Chosen and the Beautiful. Right away, I love the title. You know, I think Kristy [assumed spelling], the producer, was asking me about like how I thought of this book. And I realized it -- well, I'll say it now -- that New York Public Library is joining as they do monthly with WNYC for their program that will entail Alice and Stewart from NPR interviewing Nghi Vo. And that's going to be in August, after this airs. So we'll link to it, though, the conversation afterwards. But I think that would -- that's what planted it in my mind. But this is the weird thing, that I saw The Chosen and the Beautiful, and then as I discovered more about it and read that it was a sort of riff or retelling of The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, but from the point of view of one of the characters named Jordan Baker, this -- I don't even know how to -- I don't know where I'm going with this, but it's true. And make of it what you will, that sort of clenched it for me. And that just like I have to read this book. Because of course like a lot of us, I read the Great Gatsby when I was 15 in 10th grade. A lot of it still stayed with me. I haven't fully reread it since, but it made such an impact on me that I wrote a paper in English class on the flapper, like '20s women, of which Daisy Buchanan and Jordan Baker are representative in some ways. And you know -- did you do this in your high school yearbook where in your entry in your high school yearbook you had your name, and then you had a quote, and then you maybe had a nickname, and then all of the clubs you were a part of? Like all -- your little high school rundown in your high school yearbook. Or was it just your name?

[Crystal] It's been so long, I don't remember.

[Frank] Really? It's been longer for me, and I'll never forget. But my high school yearbook --

[Crystal] And I was on the yearbook committee, and I still don't remember. [laughing]

[Frank] Are you serious?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Well, we had a quote. We had to offer a quote -- you didn't have to -- but you offer a quote and a nickname, and then all the clubs and activities you were in in high school. I gave a quote, which I won't repeat here right now, but my nickname that I chose for myself -- which was not my nickname called by anyone in school. I didn't have a lot of friends, but nobody called this name, but I put it down as my nickname -- was Jordan Baker.

[Laughter] Don't ask me why. I can't remember anymore. Maybe as we discuss this book, it might reveal itself as to why I felt I needed to nickname myself Jordan Baker. Besides, it's not -- I just liked the sound of it. And I think --

[Crystal] And not -- you didn't choose Gatsby or any of the --

[Frank] Or Daisy, or Nick, or Muriel -- Myrtle. I mean, I don't know. I think I just liked the androgenous quality of it maybe.

[Crystal] Yeah, true, true.

[Frank] I liked the name. It seemed exotic, but yet very basic? Let's discover.

[Crystal] Baker of the Bakers, yep.

[Frank] It's right therein my yearbook from when I was 18 years old. Frank Collerius's nickname was Jordan Baker. So yes, we read The Chosen and the Beautiful by Nghi Vo and is told -- the Gatsby story told from the perspective of the character Jordan Baker. So what'd you think? Did you like it, did you hate it, did you indifferent to it? [laughing] That's a dumb question. I loved it. [inaudible]

[Crystal] Okay. Okay, okay. I enjoyed it a lot. I also have complicated like memories of The Great Gatsby as that kind of work that I had to read for school, and I feel like it invigorated the old story and made me enjoy it a lot more. Did you revisit The Great Gatsby, the original book when you were reading this?

[Frank] I read that when I was 15. I just [inaudible]

[Crystal] But you didn't go back to like --

[Laughter]

[Frank] No. I actually wanted to, but I didn't. I just felt like I was going to get confused between the two, like I wouldn't know who wrote what. But I relied on my memory, and a lot of things came back. Because like I said, the book made such an impact on me in high school that I nicknamed myself Jordan Baker. Did you reread it? No.

[Crystal] No, I didn't have time.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] But I did wonder how closely like it adhered to the book. I feel like not so much because there were like some major things that I vaguely recall from the book that didn't happen. Right?

[Frank] I think it -- I think the retelling hits the major plot points, for sure.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] It tells the story that Fitzgerald wrote, definitely. Like it doesn't change anything radically in history like Quentin Tarantino did in Once Upon a Time... in Hollywood and changing the story of Manson and Sharon Tate. But individual scenes are fleshed out or changed because it is from Jordan Baker's perspective, not Nick Carraway's as it is in Great Gatsby. And so because you have Jordan's story from her point of view, you get more of her backstory and her perspective. Like, you know, Nick might've alluded to Daisy in some way, but Jordan was in the room with Daisy. So you don't get that story from Nick in the Great Gatsby, but you get it here. But I think the major points are there, for sure. It is a retelling. You can feel sure of that. And I know that certain lines came back to me, too, that were in The Great Gatsby that Nghi Vo uses in The Chosen and the Beautiful.

[Crystal] You remembered the quotes from The Great Gatsby?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Wow.

[Frank] I didn't [inaudible]. I mean, it's interesting about your -- one's brain is that it's -- like stuff is in there that you're like oh! I mean, I remembered certain scenes, certainly the heat of New York City, the climactic scene when they all drive in from Long Island to Manhattan and go to the plaza, and it's hot, hot, hot. And then of course, as they drive back from that afternoon, the climax occurs. I remembered that. I remembered -- oh, well, to start off, to show what Nghi Vo does is that I remembered the opening -- all right. I should say what I remember a lot about reading the book is that it was one of the first books -- this is what's so great about reading books like this when you're that young and why they assign them in school, I suppose. It really pushes your brain. Because there were parts of the book I remember reading that I didn't understand at all what was happening. Like when -- I think Chapter 2 in The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald starts describing the Valley of Ashes or City of Ashes between the rich people and West and East Egg, and Manhattan, which is essentially Queens. But -- and then the big billboard of the eyes of TJ Eckleburg, the optician -- the giant eyes on a billboard in the middle of this sort of dirty, industrial part of Long Island. And the way he described it, I was like eyes? Big eyes in the sky? Like it was very confusing, and I was reading it, and as I was reading it, like the visual coalesced into understanding it's a billboard in the middle of this town that's very gray and dirty and industrial. But I didn't understand that as I was reading it until it started becoming clearer and clearer. And then also, at the beginning when Nick Meets Daisy and Jordan, he describes them as floating in this room amidst billowing curtains and almost as if they're not fully anchored to the sofa. And that made an impact to me because it seemed as almost as if they were floating as he was describing. And then, in The Chosen and The Beautiful, Nghi Vo has Daisy and Jordan literally floating around the house before they land on the sofa and pick up and meet Nick. Because The Chosen and The Beautiful has an element of supernatural or magic, literal magic that occurs in daily life. Right? She doesn't -- and that intrigued me too. Because when I read about it before I chose it, I was like there were elements of sort of like magic in the book that were just part of their lives, which I found very, very intriguing.

[Crystal] Yeah. I got -- what, in the first chapter, when they were drinking, and they were putting those little droplets of demon blood, I was like okay. I see where this twist is going. [laughing] I was very excited for it. Not what I was expecting.

[Frank] The demoniac.

[Crystal] The -- yeah. Is that how you pronounce it?

[Frank] Demoniac. Yeah -- the demon -- yeah. And I was -- it's not like everywhere in the book all the time, but it's interesting to talk about. Like how much a part of this -- what would you call it? Not supernatural, but a little -- a little magical --

[Crystal] I was going to say, like it's further than magical --

[Frank] -- infernal --

[Crystal] -- realism. I guess it's -- is it like speculative fiction? Something like that?

[Frank] Right. It's almost like taking the world as we know it and adding these elements that are not of the world as we know it, that are commonplace in this particular world. We're reading -- like it's the world of Gatsby and the Buchanans and Jordan, but you know, they get served demon's blood, and it's a shrug. Like yeah right, we know about that. Or they -- or Daisy has a charm that enables them to float around the room on the ceiling and float like they're flying through the rooms. And that's just like something that can be done. It's like just a matter of fact. And the thing that Gatsby gets involved with, there was a mania that the summer before were everyone had a -- or everyone had a black fingernail, which indicated that they had sold their soul to the devil or something and got something in return. But a lot of people just painted their finger black just to look cool, rather than actually have selling their soul. Turns out that Gatsby sort of did, and that's how he got all his money, which actually in some ways makes as much logical sense as like the shadowy world of gangsters and such that Fitzgerald wrote about. You know, what -- selling one's soul at this point is such a metaphor that it could be -- you could take it as literally as possible or as metaphorical. For any number of things that someone does to attain what Gatsby attained, that incredible wealth for nothing. So there's a lot here. But I enjoyed -- I really enjoyed getting into it, and I enjoyed Jordan's voice. Because Jordan in the original is a -- can be analyzed as many things. As a character that sort of moves along the meeting between Daisy and J. Gatsby, is a love interest of Nick's, is another in the sort of like sort of semi-soulless sybarites of the '20s -- flapper girls -- or she could be analyzed as slightly an other person who's slightly outside of the golden circle or the inner circle like Daisy is. Like Daisy is the ultimate inner insider because she's alluded to have cheated at golf because she's a golf player, so she's a sportswoman -- sportsperson. She's described as jaunty a lot in the original and in this one, and that counterpoints what the flowy sort of fluidity and femininity -- so-called -- of Daisy, so there's a sense of like what's going on there with Jordan. You know, what is she exactly? And clearly, Nghi Vo picked up on this because she made Jordan Vietnamese and sort of sexually fluid, for sure. [inaudible] as the word is in a way. I mean, everyone is sort of sexually fluid in this book.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] And it's not a big deal, even though it is sometimes a big deal still. Even though for the most place, it's more commonplace. And you could argue that Fitzgerald certainly edged into that, but couldn't quite go there for various reasons in The Great Gatsby about the real sex lives of these characters, where Nghi Vo certainly does and can. So I like that she picked up that character and -- because she sort of [inaudible] to Nick, and Nick is the narrator and observer in The Great Gatsby. And so you're picking up from a very different point of view, which is just a fun thing and -- period, you know, to contemplate and watch spin out. So I don't know. Where, how, what, what's on your --

[Crystal] Well, I will --

[Frank] --what's on your mind?

[Crystal] Well, I will say what I do -- because it's again, the original one is like so far [inaudible] my memory. What I do like about Vo is how she really paints the picture. Like, her -- I think her writing is really beautifully done, where she like sets the scene, takes that time to really show you the -- like the luxury of these parties, of the setting. I have some quotes. Let me see if I can find my -- I had to take a screenshot of -- [laughing]

[Frank] I love it.

[Crystal] So one of the paragraphs that I remember really liking, and it kind of has like the title in it. At Gatsby's, the clock stood at just five shy of midnight the moment you arrived. Crossing from the main road through the gates of his world, a chill swirled around you. The stars came out, and the moon rose up out of the Sound. It was as around as a golden coin and so close you could bite it. I had never seen the moon like that before. It was no mercury dime, New York moon, but a harvest moon brought all the way from the wheat fields of North Dakota to shine with sweet benevolence down on the chosen and the beautiful.

[Frank] Ah. You know, The Chosen and the Beautiful I think definitely riffs on another of Fitzgerald's books, which was The Beautiful and the Damned. Fitzgerald wrote a book called The Beautiful and the Damned, which actually, The Chosen and the Beautiful is sort of a flip of that because the damned and the chosen are sort of opposites. Right? Damned, you're condemned forever to eternal hell, and the chosen is you're saved from it. So -- but that was describing one of his -- them going to one of Gatsby's parties. Because Gatsby throws these huge -- I mean, I don't feel like we have to go through the story of The Great Gatsby for people. I mean, essentially, Gatsby and Daisy meet when they are very young, and he's not wealthy enough, and she ends up marrying Tom Buchanan, who is. And she's of certain society, and then he goes to war -- World War I -- and then comes back, makes his fortune, and then attempts to attract her attention by buying a house across the Sound from her -- the Long Island Sound -- and throws these giant parties to attract her attention and figuring out a way to get back into her life because she is the only one he ever loved. And Daisy is not happy with Tom because Tom is a brute --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] -- sort of macho dude. But it's interesting though -- the parties -- because also in this book The Chosen and The Beautiful, the -- you get the sense that Gatsby made his -- well, you -- that Gatsby made his fortune not through like weird gangster dealings, but through selling his soul to the devil. And the house, his -- Gatsby's house is sort of like a portal to hell or something, or a manifestation of hell on Earth. And people at these parties go missing ostensibly are -- they're sell their souls to the devil and are subsumed into that. So she gives an explanation of Gatsby's -- how he came to wealth in a very different way than Fitzgerald, somehow still believable. Because it's not very clear, even in Great Gatsby, how he got so rich so quick. But you know it was sort of shady and underhanded. Why not under world or really under world? But what -- I mean, so Jordan, though, since she's telling the story like -- and that quote you read is like from her point of view. Like, what do you think of her as the observer and the storyteller? Forget about The Great Gatsby. Just from reading this book. Like, what sense did you get of her? What she's like?

[Crystal] I mean, as kind of the point of view that we're reading from, I sort of found it interesting how she described like all these really beautiful things, but she was also very quick to also see these -- like the rot beneath it. Right? Like, even really early on where she describes like Daisy and like she talks about like that little tiny bruise on her hand, and that kind of like shows that relationship that Tom and Daisy have, and how he was like abusive towards her. I feel like that's very like threaded throughout in the descriptions.

[Frank] I mean, she's like -- yeah. That's actually a good point. She does -- she always sees the beauty, but also sees the sort of madness underneath it, or the madness that's also there. I mean, but she's also -- by virtue, maybe, of her -- she was "adopted" by a wealthy white family, but then you get the sense that she was basically taken as a cute baby in Vietnam and brought to the States and brought up in great wealth and has the name Baker from a very established family. But because of that approval, she's in society, but she's also looks different and is treated differently, even though whenever someone says something against a so-called minority, they always look at her and say oh, but not you, honey. We don't mean you. But her personality is such that she's also an observer, and she says it's the thing she likes to do the most. But she's also -- she doesn't want to get too emotionally close. Like, she doesn't want to step into -- you know, in other words, the passions of Gatsby or Daisy or even Nick are something that she wants to keep removed from. Like, she says something about her own relationships. She said she usually got out of a relationship before jealousy could take hold. Like, she would be in a relationship with someone, but she usually ended it, or it ended on its own before even feelings of jealousy could come up. And you get the sense of that's ay-okay with her. Because she was just like I don't want to get into that emotional drama, that turmoil that people put themselves through. She wanted to keep that distance from it, almost not want to stay outside of it, like be that outsider.

[Crystal] But --

[Frank] And she likes to observe the other people's foibles and in flagrante delictos.

[Crystal] Do you feel like she really likes that, or -- I mean, I think I interpret that more as that this is the position that she was kind of put into or used to, that she talked about when she was younger. Right? Like how, as she got older, she was kind of dropped by a lot of her friends because she was different. And you know that thing of like you're trying to protect yourself, so you push things away. So I feel like that maybe that's where she was coming from with a lot of those aspects.

[Frank] Exactly. Like, she said when she wasn't the cute little doll -- like exotic doll -- as a child, she was dropped. And I think you're right. I think -- that's why I said like her backstory was such that she became, for whatever reason or from whatever cause, this kind of person. So yes. I do think her life experience is indivorceable [phonetic] from what she's become as a personality. And it's almost like it precludes her -- and I don't think she minds -- it precludes her from any real depth of feeling -- or any real access to an emotion that would actually sweep over her and take over her like it does Gatsby and Daisy. For better or worse. I mean -- but she has observations that are the authorial voice coming through in lots of ways too. Like, you know, she sees Daisy as this glorious, you know, wonderful thing of an icon of society and of what womanhood spires to be in lots of ways. Or just because it has so much power attached to it. Like, that's how much potential that she can get so much by being that blonde. Or she's not blonde, actually. Daily is always portrayed as blonde in movies, but she has dark hair, and Jordan is the blonde one. But she's dark haired and blue eyed -- Daisy. But she says at one point, when Daisy is about to marry Tom, and Daisy of course is -- finds out that Gatsby wants her and she's on the verge of getting married to Tom and just cries, cries, cries, cries, drama, drama, drama, and Jordan is alarmed at the extent of her crying. And then Jordan says to herself well, maybe it's not such a bad thing Daisy because if she gets this emotional, maybe something in her will break. And therefore, something true will come out. And she's even shocked about thinking that thought, but that she's saying there's so much artifice and so much lost in her own personal emotions that the extent of her so-called grief over marrying Tom as opposed to Gatsby, maybe something real will come out of this, which I think is an interesting observation. Actually, there was a followup when she said she was shocked by thinking that. Let's see. Oh, yet Jordan says -- here. Daisy's tears were like a deluge, flowing in sheets down her face. And I thought of the fact that if they were allowed to do so, those tears would drown exactly one person. And that was Daisy herself. Maybe that wouldn't be so bad. Maybe if she breaks enough, something true will come out. The thought shocked me with its gibbous nature. I didn't know how to deal with it, so I stuffed it in the same pocket as the pearls and put it out of my mind. She's shocked by the thought and puts it away because it's an observation that's actually very -- you know, what do you do with an observation like that? You're seeing someone who's suffering, and then you're thinking well, maybe it's good for them because they're such a fake person [laughing] in so many ways, and maybe something good will happen to it -- something true -- not good, but true will come out of it. And then of course, in one of the best scenes in the whole book, I think, Daisy can't function and go to her own engagement dinner or whatever that Jordan creates a paper Daisy and sends that Daisy in her place like a -- the -- I don't know much about it, but this sort of ancient art of paper cutting where you cut something into paper and it turns into a real live thing, which is part of the magic that weaves its way through the book. She creates this Daisy that stands in for her because Daisy can't handle it. So this fake Daisy goes to this engagement party, where the real Daisy is just crying and drinking in her room. That Jordan creates, and then Daily kills it later. She kills her double later, and she's very happy doing it because Daisy's pretty horrible, actually.

[Crystal] I will say in terms of the magic of the book, I feel like the parts where the paper dolls is coming to life, I felt like that was -- I don't know how to describe -- like the most anchored part of the magic of the world. Like, there were other moments where there was like those magical things where I felt like it didn't connect as well, but those descriptions of number one, like, I think the first instance with the paper lion, right? Then with like Daisy, and then like there's like the scene at the end, as well, that was really interesting. I thought that was like really wonderful and took this book to like another level for me versus like the --

[Crystal] The paper cutting?

[Crystal] Yeah. Versus the demon blood, which I was like all right. [laughing]

[Frank] Yeah, you're -- exactly. And the paper cutting, right, like you said, has these three major set pieces and -- or four, really. And it also is probably the way that Jordan will find herself or get out of the society in which she currently lives, which is the American society, by joining this group of paper cutters in Shanghai, which is alluded to at the end. She's going to leave the States and join this crew who have this magical ability as well. Right?

[Crystal] With that [inaudible] character. Was it Kai who -- definitely was not --

[Frank] Kai.

[Crystal] -- in the original book. Right? That's an entirely --

[Frank] No.

[Crystal] -- new character. Right?

[Frank] That whole thing was --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] I mean, that's the sort of great thing about the -- creating the double Daisy is that in the original book, it could've been like she was a mess at the night of her engagement. Like that was the gossip, and then that's all you know. And then Vo creates this other kind of night that -- the more I think of it and the more I'm talking about it, Daisy in this book is outright malevolent. I think. I'm going to go there. Why not?

[Crystal] [laughing] Yes, yes.

[Frank] Because she -- Daisy has always been the one that kills in the car her husband Tom's lover, Myrtle. That's -- or that's the Fitzgerald plot point, and that happens here. But --

[Crystal] Oh, oh my gosh, okay.

[Frank] Okay, good. Tell me.

[Crystal] [laughing] I just realized something. Because I think I misremembered the original book in that it was Daisy that was the one that got killed. And I was like I don't recall this happening. But that -- okay, it's coming together now. It -- okay. Yes, yes. It was the mistress, right?

[Frank] The mistress. Right. Myrtle --

[Crystal] Because I definitely remembered -- yes, okay, got it.

[Frank] Myrtle and her husband George run the gas station in the City of Ashes in that Queens town, Willits Point, between the eggs -- West and East Egg -- and Manhattan -- like that industrial poor part.

[Crystal] I was convinced that from my recollection of the original book that Daisy was the one that had died. And I was like what is going on? [laughing]

[Frank] Oh, no. She's the one that was driving.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] And you know, she ends up back with -- in Great Gatsby -- back with Tom just crying, crying, crying. Like unhappy, unhappy, unhappy. And then, in this book, she actively pulls the mistress's -- Myrtle's body off the road into the ditch to get her out of the way of the cars that could drive past. Like she's actively involved with this murder. She did it. I mean, whether she did it on purpose or not, like hit -- because she knew she was the mistress in both books. But in this part, it's made more emphatically clear. And then, it popped in my head later -- somehow when I was reading, it sort of just jijed [phonetic] over me, but how -- and there are ghosts that figure in this book at different points that are just there --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] -- in Jordan's life. And presumably most people's lives, possibly. But at the end, she sees -- I think she actively -- she sees Myrtle's ghost in the street. And I don't know if she says or does anything, but the -- it's alluded that Myrtle will basically haunt Daisy and Tom or worse forever. And -- or go after them because she's like -- the ghost of Myrtle is seen hitching at the end, and Jordan is like yes, that's the way it should be. Because Jordan's like over the whole Buchanans' drama. And that's different from the original book in that you know, Daisy and Tom are not just going to be dramatically swooning and unhappy in their giant mansion. They're actively going to be -- revenge is going to be sought on them probably. I think. Which is definitely different, which is a definite spin that gives a little agency to the wronged mistress. You don't know much about it in this book. There's more of her in The Great Gatsby. Because it -- again, it's from Jordan's point of view, and Jordan has no interaction with her until the end. But there are some great pieces of writing in this book. I definitely think that we've alluded to -- I mean, I'm just looking at my notes. I mean, there's one part I remember, just how she describes Daisy around the time that Jordan is building Daisy's double, where Daisy is languidly lying on the sofa like tear strained and lifts herself up without using her arms. Almost as if her stomach muscles are employed, and she just lifts herself up from the center without using her arms, almost eerily, like sort of like a -- somebody being raised from the dead, and she says her eyes were unseeing. I mean, just these sort of very dramatic, luxurious, sensual descriptions of what's happening. I mean, there are a couple of set pieces in the book like Nick and Jordan having relations in the backyard, shall we say? And I love how they get so messed up that they could never fix themselves up to look okay in front of Daisy and J. Gatsby. Because they're meeting in the house -- that she -- they jump into the Long Island Sound. She's like because if you can't fix it, just ruin it completely, and no one could tell the difference. So they basically come in like oh, we just jumped in the water, and look how terrible we are! We have to change! But they were really sort of messed up because of some hot times in the garden, baby. [coughs]

[Crystal] I also remember thinking I don't recall this in the original book [laughing] as I was reading those [inaudible].

[Frank] No. Especially what Jordan and Nick do to each other. [laughing] Teaser!

[Laughter]

[Frank] This is -- this is a family podcast. We won't discuss.

[Crystal] But I do like that description that you said of how sensual like the descriptions are in -- sensual in the sense of like the senses and the way that she writes and incorporates like taste, sound, like all these other aspects instead of just what you see. Oh, I also have enjoyed the descriptions of like the food and the drinks, things like that too.

[Frank] Much is made of that -- like, of the sensual appetites that are --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- needed to be fulfilled and most always are fulfilled. But then, are they fulfilled? They fulfill their appetites but are never fulfilled, which brings up, I think, a huge issue or huge point of the book -- both books - this sort of like what is fulfillment, and what is love? [laughing] Oh, what is getting what you love? I mean, you know, like in The Great Gatsby, much is made of Gatsby's yearning for Daisy and that all-encompassing yearning for her and -- which comes to disaster. His own death, for one [laughing] -- major one. But like is that fulfillment of his yearning true fulfillment? Or is the yearning itself the thing of happiness? Like, there's a point in the book where it says -- or I wrote a note saying happy is what happens when your dreams come true, which is a line from Wicked, the Broadway show, which -- [singing] bum-bum-bada-bum happy is what happens when your dreams come true! And that's a Kristin Chenoweth line. But it said in the book -- like, Daisy says when looking up -- looking at the future of her life with Gatsby, she says to Jordan well, I will be happy, of course. Right? Like, she's saying to Jordan. Because Jordan is like questioning her. Like, you're going to leave Tom, you're going to go with Gatsby. And she's like well, Gatsby loves me, and you know, when I go there, of course I'll be happy. But she goes, "right?" So the question is like isn't happy -- doesn't happy come when what you think you want, you get? Right? But God knows, how often in literature, certainly in life, does that happen when we get what we think we want, or we're almost going to get what we think we want? [inaudible] I did open The Great Gatsby a couple of times just to poke in, and one of the things that was poignant was a part where they list Gatsby's notes to himself on how to best live his day. And it was sort of something that anybody in the world could understand. It was sort of like don't smoke so much. Don't drink. Read at least one good book every other day. Exercise. Study electrical engineering. Like, just sort of how to be a person -- how to be a good guy and how to be cultured and how to be resourceful and how to hopefully therefore achieve what you want by being that person everybody will think is smart and attractive and rich and everything that she thinks he should be. Like, how many of us have written to-do lists at one point about how -- like don't think such negative thoughts, or all that kind of thing. And it was -- it was actually heartbreaking just poking into The Great Gatsby and seeing that moment of his aspirational need. And in a way, you could say that might've been the happiest time of his life, looking forward to his fruition of love with Daisy, rather than the actual attaining of it or almost attaining of it. You know what I mean?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] [singing] Happy is what happens when --

[Crystal] The journey. It's not --

[Frank] [singing] -- your dreams --

[Crystal] -- the destination.

[Frank] Hmm? Well, yeah. I mean, I guess. Maybe that's this whole story, even though at the end of Great Gatsby, you know, Nick is sort of lost in that destination, finds himself being pulled back by the past. But when Jordan gets to end the book, it ends a little bit more -- well, what did she say? Did you think it ended a little more positively?

[Crystal] I mean, I can't remember the old -- the original book, so I can't really compare it to that.

[Frank] She -- well, I looked at -- and that's one of the things I looked at is that last line of The Great Gatsby. Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgiistic [phonetic] future that year by year recedes before us. The future recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that's no matter. Tomorrow, we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther, and one fine morning, dash-dash-dash -- so we beat on, boats against the current, born back ceaselessly into the past. So it's almost saying you can't move forward no matter how much you want to. You're always pulled back. And in The Chosen and the Beautiful, it ends with Jordan. The sky went still, and far above, I could see foreign stars. Stars that moved, stars that winked at me, stars that shot across the sky like comets. Under the wrack and wreck before, the sky was new, and I reached for it with a yearning, eager hand. So she's saying the past is passed and that she's moving forward. That's that. You can take it from me, kid.

[Laughter] I just set that up for you. Oh, my darling, love will never be enough. So Jordan Baker. Why did I want to be that name? I wonder why. I just think it's a sort of cool name.

[Crystal] You wanted to be the outsider observer of what was going on and [inaudible]

[Frank] Maybe I was the -- I was the outsider, certainly. By 15? Phew, there's no inside story for me. I mean, I was just trying to survive [laughing] the day. I think I also wanted to be -- now that I think of it, I think everybody read Great -- of course in high school -- read it. I wanted to be slightly -- maybe I wanted to be dramatic and controversial. Like, have people be like what's that about? Why is he calling himself Jordan Baker? No one cared. Even though that's not true. The edit -- like, the you of my high school, the editorial committee, like someone on the -- what do they call it? The Yearbook Committee -- called my house to double check that they were -- I was sure that I had written the right thing. And I was like yep, print it!

[Crystal] I think I vaguely remember our yearbook. A couple of students did like dirty emojis on it.

[Frank] What a different generation.

[Crystal] I know.

[Frank] [laughing] The internet --

[Crystal] In real life until --

[Frank] --was like in name glimmer. [laughing]

[Crystal] Well, were they emojis? They were more like numerical characters? What are they called? I don't know. But we discovered it after it was printed, so it was too late. [laughing]

[Frank] Numerical? Wait, what?

[Crystal] Like you remember --

[Frank] What was that? Numerical characters?

[Crystal] You remember how with like emojis, before they were called emojis, we did the colon and then the parenthesis? And then now -- I mean, were those called emojis?

[Frank] You had to create emojis out of the keyboard.

[Crystal] Yeah. Are -- were they still called emojis?

[Frank] I guess not. You're right, though. They were symbols created by the typewriter keyboard. Because there were no visual emojis yet, I guess, is what you're saying. Right?

[Crystal] Pictographs. They were -- [laughing] I don't know.

[Frank] Yeah. Well, that's sort of putting you in a certain location date wise. [laughing] But we shan't discuss --

[Crystal] Well, I --

[Frank] Actually, everybody is so young [inaudible] we forget. What?

[Crystal] Oh, I was going to say, like it -- you know, also in high school, I went to like a math and science high school. So maybe that also is -- attributed to them using those numerical characters and whatnot.

[Frank] Oh, possibly. Was that New York City?

[Crystal] No. It was in Texas.

[Frank] Oh, no. Right, right, right. Right. You told me. [inaudible]

[Crystal] Where I was this morning. [laughing]

[Frank] That's right. Did you -- actually, it was -- there's one thing she creates, that club where Jordan meets Gatsby, and they discuss the meeting called the Cendrillon, S-C -- C-E-N-D-R-I-L-L-O-N --

[Crystal] Wait, what is it?

[Frank] -- which is a place that -- the Cendrillon. It's -- you can't say it any other way than French. Because it's not sen drillon [phonetic]. It's the Cendrillon. And it means Cinderella.

[Crystal] That's what I thought. That's why I like interpreted it as. I don't know. I don't think I'm [inaudible]

[Frank] But it's this club where -- this night club where you really go to be really transgressive. And Nick won't go there. But J. Gatsby goes, and so does Jordan. I was wondering -- I wonder if that has an analog in The Great Gatsby, actually. It must in -- maybe not. I don't think it does. But why it's also based on Cinderella? Like, you're probably come in as one thing, and you're recreated as another. Or you can recreate yourself. I guess you go there to be the Belle of the ball. [laughing]

[Crystal] What I --

[Frank] He says at one point, the most gleaming version of yourself.

[Crystal] Wikipedia is taking me to some French opera under that title. But I do wonder if it's --

[Frank] Yeah, I think it's this name of --

[Crystal] But I wonder if it is based on like -- oh, I feel like my memory is gone. But the original -- oh, the Grim fairy tales, maybe, where the actual Cinderella story was pretty dark, right? Pretty bloody, where like they had -- they cut off their heels to fit into the shoe, and then like the --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] I think they -- at the very end, they made the stepmother dance in hot iron shoes until maybe she dies possibly as punishment? It was -- it's much, much darker than obviously the Disney Cinderella that we know. And I wonder if it -- maybe there is connections to that, possibly.

[Frank] Yeah, another aspect of the infernal that lurks at the edges of this book. [sighs] But all in all, I really -- I mean, I really -- it's -- she's one of those writers, Nghi Vo, that kept me going. Because as I was reading it, I was just like yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm, uh-huh, yep. And I -- because she --

[Crystal] So into it.

[Frank] --she's gained my trust, that even if I went places that I'd be like huh? Her writing was good enough that I was like you have my trust to go with you. She didn't -- she -- considering all the high-falutin' sort of luxury parties and stuff she's talking about, she never -- I thought -- went pretention. It was never pretentious to me. It was always a real point of view that I liked hearing. And it really -- like I said before about Jordan, like what do you think Jordan is -- because she tells the story -- who do you think she -- what was she about? And we discussed a little bit of that. I feel like it brings up the question again of like I don't -- about likable/reliable narrators. Somehow, this book made that point moot in that who the heck really is likable/reliable? I mean, you can like Jordan, sure. But there was enough in here to sort of give you intonations of she's -- you know, not the nicest person. And she's, you know, like she has her own personal issues. And I sort of -- to me, I like that. I like that sort of rounding out of a character. That she's not just sort of like a pretty person who only has the best -- wishes the best for everyone.

[Crystal] Complicated. Yeah.

[Frank] Right. She's complicated. And who's reliable really? [laughing] Like you said, maybe the Disney version of Cinderella, you have a reliable narrator. But you know, not books like this, certainly. But it's all you've got. And that's what I like, is that you -- it's -- Jordan's all you have. So -- ah, that's a good point! Jordan's all you have, so like I said before, I've -- I trusted Nghi Vo's writing, so therefore I was trusting Jordan. Regardless of where Jordan might take me, like I said before, to places I might not want to go. But I go because I want to -- I trusted the voice. And I trusted Jordan's words and her voice. I was just like okay, I'm going to trust you. Even though she might hurt me, and she might betray me, I was prepared. Because I was like I still want to go on this journey with you. And that's maybe the best and only thing we can look for, rather than take me on a play -- take me on a journey that's going to end where I want to end. But rather take me on a journey, and I'll follow where you go, whether I like it or not.

[Laughter] So -- and --

[Crystal] But yeah. Like, as -- you know, as a complicated character, I think when you do have that kind of voice, even if they're not likable, they're very human, and I think people can relate to that kind of humanness of somebody who makes mistakes, who's still trying to like find their way and is like maybe caught between worlds, which Jordan certainly is. And that does make me late in some way, even though like I do think it's true that you don't always like, like the character, but you relate to the humanness of the character. Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah. And this sort of sweet like -- we're not getting into it too much. Just the -- her relationship with Nick, which was up down, but real love-ish there, his -- what Nick turns out to be, which is an interesting thing.

[Crystal] Yeah. I -- you know, I have some thoughts, but --

[Frank] Did you have a problem with that?

[Crystal] No, no, no. I just -- so the summary of the book, if you -- did you read the summary of the book?

[Frank] No.

[Crystal] Like the publisher's summary. I think at the very end, it says and Jordan can burn the cut paper heart out of a man. [laughing] And I was like okay. So you really just [inaudible] put it out there, and I was like okay. I mean, I think I took it more metaphorically when I read the summary, but then reading the book, I was like oh, okay. So that's really what happens.

[Frank] I don't know really quite what that -- what that was about, except to say that well, Nick turns out to be a paper Nick because the real Nick died in a car accident when he was like just out of the war. And his distant relative -- great-grandmother who as not white, which is the secret of that -- in the family -- the Nick Carraway family, which is a story that only Nghi Vo tells, not Fitzgerald -- created this paper Nick to go out into the world and live because of the hope and expectation that his family had. But yet, he has nixed so-called heritage. Right? And then Jordan had always somehow known it, but only really realized that at the end and takes -- she puts her own version of a heart into him from her own belongings. I don't know. It was sweet though. There was something -- not sweet. That's a terrible word. Like poignant about it. And loving.

[Crystal] It made me think a little bit about that like contrast of the paper -- I'll call them paper people, I guess -- and the real people and how with Nick, he seemed almost more real in some ways when people like Daisy and -- well, I mean Gatsby, who is soulless, you know? And I kind of wondered what that said, that maybe the people around Nick, they put so much of themselves or something that this paper person could have a soul more so than somebody like Gatsby or [inaudible] malevolent Daisy, as you said.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah. That -- yeah. I don't know. That -- because of all the drama at the end of the book -- of the Fitzgerald-created drama and the Nghi Vo-created drama, I -- that little part sort of -- that part sort of just slooshed [phonetic] by me because I thought it was at least a kind moment of some connection toward the Nick that I didn't -- couldn't really fully understand what might imply beyond the magic, or what the paper cutting issue -- element is too. Except, I almost thought it could have been an interesting reaching out between the two books on -- in that Nick was an outsider in The Great Gatsby, and he still is. And Jordan is too. It's sort of like a connection between them in that they're outsiderness [phonetic] has a connection. Whether -- they're not going to spend their lives together, but yet they have this connection.

[Crystal] I like that.

[Frank] Of magic and meaning. [laughing] Because I think it ends a lot more downbeat in The Great Gatsby. I -- you know. I mean, to the point where in the Baz Luhrman and Leonardo DiCaprio Great Gatsby, like, Nick is in a sanitarium telling the story, which is not in the book, either. It's just like he just can't get out of the downward spiral. And I feel like Jordan has more hope towards the end of this book, and possibly Nick. Because of his paper heart. [laughing] Magical heart.

[Crystal] It's so terrible that like I --

[Frank] [inaudible] she saves him that way.

[Crystal] --I try to recount the original Great Gatsby book, all I can see in my head is Leonardo DiCaprio. [laughing]

[Frank] I thought I might as well mention it. Because it was going to come up anyway. See, and Daisy was blonde in that, and Jordan was dark, and they're written the opposite in the books. It's interesting that that's done that way. Daisy has always been blonde. In the '70s, it was Mia Farrow and Robert Redford. They were both blonde. I wonder what that says about Hollywood, that to be ethereal, glamorous leading woman, you have to be blonde. But in the chosen and the damned -- [sighs] I keep -- is that it? The Chosen and the Beautiful. [laughing]

[Crystal] Yeah, and the Beautiful.

[Frank] I think all the titles, Nghi Vo makes Daisy dark-haired, and she always was. But Jordan is not blonde like she is in the Great Gatsby. She's Vietnamese and is dark. Her own kind of dark hair. Ah, how we do go on about these books! Are you glad you read it?

[Crystal] I am. I regret not like going back and reading the original first because I -- again, I feel like that a lot of things were lost because I couldn't remember it. I could just only remember Leonardo DiCaprio. And that [inaudible] with the --

[Frank] Which I think says all we need to know about your personality, Crystal Chen. [laughing]. I think you're right. I think you don't have to know it, but -- because I think some people might read this book and vaguely even know what Great Gatsby was. But if you do and have that historical connection to -- I didn't do it -- but rereading some of it can make the experience that much more, I think, delightful. Delicious.

[Crystal] Yeah. Because I think about other books that have done like retellings of a lot of fairy tales that I'm more familiar with and how enjoyable it is to -- I mean, obviously, there's like Cinderella ones and things like that where because it's in your consciousness or it's imbedded --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] --a different way because you grew up with it, there's a different kind of joy in reading. Obviously, you felt that because like it made such a statement, I think, on you --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] -- that you took the name of Jordan baker [laughing] as a youth.

[Laughter]

[Frank] It's not like I registered in college as Jordan Baker. That -- it was -- it only existed on the pages of my yearbook. No one called me that.

[Crystal] I mean, I'll say like --

[Frank] [laughing] It was like a made-up thing. It was --

[Crystal] When we were talking about it, and I asked you the question of like whether or not you had revisited the book, you were like oh, no. And then later on, you were like in Chapter 2 [laughing] and started quoting it. I was like hmm, lies.

[Frank] A little bit. [laughing] Lies? I don't know.

[Crystal] And then you pulled out the book to read the last sentence. I was like you've been -- [laughing] What do you mean you didn't revisit the book?

[Frank] I'm like I didn't prepare [inaudible]

[Crystal] [laughing] You have the book!

[Frank] Well, I didn't really prepare, but I [inaudible]

[Crystal] And then highlighted everything. [laughing]

[Frank] Oh my God. [laughing]. As Daisy says in version one of the folio -- no, dear. I'm not that good. I wish. I'm like I wish. But I look forward to her conversation -- Nghi Vo's conversation with Alison Stewart on the NYPL WNYC conversation that's coming up August 28, I believe. But this gets published earlier. So we'll retroactively go back and insert a link [sound effect] because there will be a recording of it. But anyone can look it up, right? I said that correctly, right? You could -- they could find it.

[Crystal] I think it'll be linked, right?

[Frank] We should probably send this to Nghi Vo and say well, listen to this before you interview at NYPL. Oh boy. Crystal just went out, so that means only one thing, everybody --

[Crystal] I almost forgot.

[Frank] -- for getting some sounds. Is it going to be your dead plants?

[Crystal] Oh, don't say that. That's so sad.

[Frank] I'm sorry.

[Crystal] They're all -- I had to throw some of them away. Some of them, I think, will revive, maybe, with some loving care. [inaudible] let me see if I can --

[Frank] Thank you for letting us end this with a hopeful note. [laughing]

[Crystal] Am I doing this correctly? I feel like I [inaudible] figure out this mic situation.

[Frank] Loving care. [ Clicking Sounds ]

[Crystal] Can you hear it?

[Frank] Yeah. Do it again.

[Crystal] [Clicking sounds] I shouldn't have cut my nails.

[Frank] It sounds like every other noise you make. [laughing] Like a comb, bristles of a brush, just --

[Crystal] That's the joys of ASMR. It all sounds the same [laughing].

[Frank] Just do one more thing. [ Clicking Sounds ]

[Frank] I don't know. It's like speaker static. [laughing]

[Crystal] Does it? Oh, I still have my speakers on.

[Frank] No, it isn't. But it sounds -- I'm just going wild because I don't know what it is. It could be -- what is it? [ Clicking Sounds ] [sighs] I don't know.

[Crystal] It's a -- here you go. It's a giant diamond. [laughing]

[Frank] It's your -- it's -- really what it is is your nails on a hard surface is what it is.

[Crystal] It's a diamond paperweight from --

[Frank] Yeah, but do what you were doing --

[Crystal] Corning Museum.

[Frank] --when you had your screen off. You were just --

[Crystal] Corning Museum of Glass. So I think this is glass. Although, it sounds kind of like plastic, to be honest.

[Frank] Plasticky.

[Crystal] Is it plastic? No.

[Frank] It's polymer.

[Crystal] But it's a museum, and it's a museum of glass. So why would they sell plastic? I don't know.

[Frank] Well, then, it is glass. Just a -- but you were just tapping your nails on it.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So that's a cheat, in a way. Because [inaudible] really is your --

[Crystal] How is that a cheat?

[Frank] I feel like the ASMR you've been doing --

[Crystal] I -- no.

[Frank] --is a sound created by your self-manipulating an object rather than acting upon the object.

[Crystal] What? The assumption is nails are always going to be used. Because how else am I going to make the sound, right?

[Frank] Right. But that can't be the whole story. And that -- this is [inaudible] you could've been tapping on your desk, and it would've sounded similar. You're saying the object you're tapping on could have --

[Crystal] No, but this -- [clicking sounds] the desk sounds very different.

[Frank] Oh, all right.

[Crystal] Right?

[Frank] See, I'm just learning the -- I'm still happily learning the ways of ASMR, thanks to Crystal, everybody. [inaudible]

[Crystal] But I do feel like this jeweled paperweight is [inaudible] for this book.

[Frank] I mean, how? I'm getting a headache.

[Crystal] It is both --

[Frank] How --

[Crystal] -- chosen and beautiful.

[Frank] [laughing] I mean, how am I supposed to say that's a giant glass diamond-shaped paperweight? I mean, how am I ever supposed to know that?

[Crystal] I mean, I think that's --

[Frank] Because it's not about the [inaudible].

[Crystal] This is the game. This is the game that we play, Frank, and one day you're going to get it. You got the bag of beans last time, so --

[Frank] Should I admit it?

[Crystal] --I don't know why you're complaining.

[Frank] Should I admit it now? Actually, I did hear you mention a bag of beans last time.

[Crystal] [laughing] Oh, Frank!

[Frank] I didn't legitimately get it. And you were like [inaudible]

[Crystal] You acted like you didn't -- you were like no, I didn't hear anything. Are y'all whispering? What?

[Frank] I'm a total liar. I'm a total [inaudible].

[Crystal] Wow, wow.

[Frank] And I was -- but no. I thought I was -- I was like this episode, I'll come clean about it because you were like what, you heard us talking. I'm like no! Because I wanted to get one. Now I realize a victory made on lies doesn't seem like victory.

[Crystal] So you've tainted this. This is tainted now. So we [inaudible]

[Frank] No, it's actually --

[Crystal] We have to delete the old episodes. [laughing]

[Frank] It's been restored to its rightful place of confusion, meaning I know nothing about ASMR or what you're tapping on at any given time. [laughing] So now I've never gotten one. Actually, I feel I did get one earlier.

[Crystal] You got the cat. You got the cat purring, but I think you guessed it -- you guessed it really early. I didn't have my headphones in, so I think I missed it. But yeah, yeah. You got some.

[Frank] [sighs] But anyway. It's all about honesty [laughing]. I still have a soul, unlike other people. [laughing]

[Crystal] Unlike the paper people, like myself. Yes.

[Frank] Oh, the paper people. Actually, it -- I do feel a little woozy talking about this. Because the world of Gatsby and Fitzgerald is such a world, is such a sensual, despairing, beautiful place. All those things, you know? Aspirational, hopeful, but dark. That pull of opposing forces that can feel exquisitely painful in a way, but -- like the exquisite sometimes gets more vibrant than the pain at different times. Do you know what I -- I'm trying to put into words like this feeling of -- it's not pure pleasure, but it's certainly not pure pain. It's sort of fascinating. He's just cast a spell, and Nghi Vo casts her own.

[Crystal] I mean --

[Frank] I'm glad I read it.

[Crystal] It could be the jetlag talking, but I like have really enjoyed you describing this book. It was almost like your version of ASMR for me. [laughing]

[Frank] Well, maybe we should have you jetlagged more often. Then I'll take center stage. [laughing] [inaudible] oh dear. Now you're going to come prepared. The next time we do this, you're going to have notes, you're going to have file cards, you're going to have cross-sectioned references, you're going to have color-coded --

[Crystal] Interviews of the author, yeah.

[Frank] -- post-its and all that.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] [laughing] [inaudible] like I have the author here in my bedroom, I can see on your screen. I think it's your bedroom. Anyway, we've been --

[Crystal] Yes, it is my bedroom.

[Frank] -- on too long. This is an endless episode.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I think if we were to [inaudible] -- so there we are. Thank you, everybody, goodbye.

[Laughter]

Thanks for listening to The Librarian is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. Reproduced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.