Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In. Before jumping into their picks this week, Frank and Crystal recap some "cult-chuh." Jacques d'Amboise, a dancer and actor, who Frank likes, recently died and Frank talked about a movie he was in, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, and how problematic that film's plotline is nowadays. Crystal just finished season two of The Circle on Netflix. She and Frank discuss how reality TV is starting to feel...scripted.

And now, here are their book picks. Let's start with Frank:

Early Morning Riser  by Katherine Heiny

Jane easily falls in love with Duncan: he's charming, good-natured, and handsome. He has also slept with nearly every woman in Boyne City, Michigan. Jane sees Duncan's old girlfriends everywhere—at restaurants, at the grocery store, even three towns away. While she may be able to come to terms with dating the world's most prolific seducer of women, she wishes she didn't have to share him quite so widely. His ex-wife, Aggie, still has Duncan mow her lawn. And his coworker Jimmy comes and goes from Duncan's apartment at the most inopportune times. Jane wonders how the relationship is supposed to work with all these people in it. Not to mention most of the other residents of Boyne City, who freely share with Jane their opinions of her choices. But any notion Jane has of love and marriage changes with one terrible car crash. Now her life is permanently intertwined with Duncan's, Aggie's, and Jimmy's, and she knows she will never have Duncan to herself. But is it possible that a deeper kind of happiness is right in front of her eyes? 

Before Crystal launched into what she read for this episode, she spent a few minutes singing the praises of:

Laxmi's Mooch by Shelly Anand, illustrated by Nabi H. Ali

Laxmi never paid much attention to the tiny hairs above her lip. But one day while playing farm animals at recess, her friends point out that her whiskers would make her the perfect cat. She starts to notice body hair all over—on her arms, legs, and even between her eyebrows. With her parents' help, Laxmi learns that hair isn't just for heads, but that it grows everywhere, regardless of gender. Laxmi's Mooch is a celebration of our bodies and our body hair, in whichever way they grow.

Crystal's read this week was:

How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America by Kiese Laymon

A collection of essays, touching on subjects ranging from family, race, violence, and celebrity to music, writing, and coming of age in Mississippi. In this collection, Laymon deals in depth with his own personal story, which is filled with trials and reflections that illuminate under-appreciated aspects of contemporary American life. New and unexpected in contemporary American writing, Laymon’s voice mixes the colloquial with the acerbic, while sharp insights and blast-furnace heat calls to mind a black 21st-century Mark Twain. Much like Twain, Laymon's writing is steeped in controversial issues both private and public. This collection introduces Laymon as a writer who balances volatile concepts on a razor's edge and chops up much-discussed and often-misunderstood topics with his scathing humor and fresh, unexpected takes on the ongoing absurdities, frivolities, and calamities of American life.

Crystal also talked about Kiese Laymon's book, Heavy: An American Memoir.

And before they sign off for the week, Crystal gives Frank a mini-ASMR quiz! Can you guess the object before Frank does? (Scroll down below next week's book pick to see what it was!)

Next week Frank and Crystal tackle their first book club pick together. Be sure to read it in time for their discussion:

Insurrecto by Gina Apostol 

Ready for Crystal's ASMR object???

A 3D printed bunny pencil holder!

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello? Hello, darling? Hello and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] I'm Crystal. Did I do it on time this time?

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] I said, did I do it on time this time?

[Frank] You can take all the time you want till you grab the spotlight and step center stage, and then I shove you aside. Center stage the Crystal Chen experience. Hello, darling. How are you?

[Crystal] Good. How are you doing?

[Frank] I'm good. I'm good. I read an interesting book, I think. Not one I know -- not one I would normally read. But do you know what I found out this morning? Unless you have something on the cultural landscape you're just burning to discuss.

[Crystal] Let me hear your thing.

[Frank] Well, you know, a dancer named Jacques d'Amboise that we -- before we went on, that's the name I looked up to make sure I pronounced correctly, d'Amboise. It's French. So I'm pretty sure it was d'Amboise, but I wanted to make sure, because you want to be right, if not perfect. A ballet dancer, died a couple of weeks ago, May 2nd, I think and I just found out. And he was a dancer with the New York Ballet in like the '40s, '50s, '60s, and then started his own group. And his daughter is a Broadway dancer, Charlotte d'Amboise. He was in -- and this is where I lead you down the path of confusion. He was in a movie musical from the '50s called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

[Crystal] Oh, I have heard of it.

[Frank] Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, which, I have to say, is one of my favorite -- when I -- of all time. And I sort of became obsessed with, over this pandemic actually of dancers. I don't -- something about -- I thought -- I mean, Fred Astaire was my idol, growing up the dancer, if you know him, from the '30s onward. So I've always had an interest in dance or people who can dance. I stopped it, but I sort of have fantasies about it. But Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is just like a perfect little movie. I mean, there's like a whole -- the whole famous dance scene where they're raising a barn is like energetic, comedic. Russ Tamblyn is in it. He was in West Side Story. He played Riff. It's just like, I love it. I can watch it every so often. One of those movies you put on every so often and just like get into it. And you don't think you might get into it, but you always do. Even though, I guess the plot can be sort of problematic, because it's basically seven -- what?

[Crystal] Oh, a lot of older movies, yeah are when you visit them.

[Frank] Well, I mean, it's seven brothers who live in the woods, like all by themselves and they decide like one day we're going to get us some girls. And they like go to the town and -- nearby, the only town near them and basically kidnap seven girls and bring them back up to the woodshed, you know. It sounds creepy. The cabin. And then if -- you know, I mean, it's hard to say because when you discuss it, it's like the movie is perfect in that, in the world of the movie, nobody's hurt, of course. Nobody is really unhappy. The girls all, this is also problematic, want to be there. They want -- they love those guys, even though, of course, they resist and fight. And it's like, you know, a kidnapping basically, but it's a musical comedy from the '50s. I mean, based -- the play -- it wasn't a play, actually. It was based on a Roman myth called The Rape of the Sabine Women, which is same plot. And there's even a song in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers called the Sobbin' Women, because they were all crying when they get kidnapped from their families. And it's like, the women were sobbing, sobbing, sobbing, fit to be tied. The women were sobbing, sobbing, sobbing, dah, dah, dah. And that's like now the musical comedy. I don't know why I brought that up. Oh, Jacques d'Amboise who was in it. He's one of the brothers. Anyway. You're like, now I know why I hate musical theater.

[Crystal] No, I do like one.

[Frank] I know.

[Crystal] I told you I like one musical --

[Frank] -- which I'll bring in and --

[Crystal] -- [multiple speakers] music. The only one.

[Frank] Oh, that's right. I meant to sing a song from there, but I'll bring it in when it's appropriate. But that's what my thinking was, just this morning, because I found out he had died, and it made me think of that movie. And then I thought, should I mention it? And I was like, why not? I mean, it's such a fun movie. I mean, the world of fiction and movies and stories one tells, like interestingly could have problematic elements. It's almost like -- especially in musical comedy is that -- or musicals, you, or I, I'll say, can accept the parameters of the story within the story for what it is and not pull it into the real world. I can separate it out. So if there are those like sort of emotional illusions you want to make about like, well, basically they're being kidnapped, and you're like what? They're all happy. You know it -- I don't know.

[Crystal] I may get it. I'm a really big fan of a lot of like detective stories, especially the older ones by like Dashiell Hammett and like -- all right, I think, Sir Raymond Chandler. And those are still some of my favorites, but, you know, they're not really great in their depiction of women. And I kind of recognize that and I kind of accepted and I still like it for what it is, which is this kind of depiction of a lot like interesting like stoic men and whatnot. But I think it's okay to like love those things and still recognize that they are like hugely problematic, you know.

[Frank] As they say. I mean, I like to believe that I'm thoughtful enough to be able to distinguish and not be like, whoa, it's all right to go and kidnap women. Okay. This 1954 musical gave me permission, you know. I mean, it's an age-old debate about like what motivates people or what will incite people.

[Crystal] And they're great intro ways for conversation too. So I think there's still a lot of worth to those movies and books, right?

[Frank] That's exactly what I love. Thank you. That's a -- because, like I said, I was like thinking, why do I think it's a wonderful movie? And I -- and it very much matters to me that even if I have to elide some emotions that would occur in the real world for the sake of the movie, I'm like, oh, all the girls, all the boys are happy and pure-hearted, like the boys are not doing anything terrible. When they kidnap them, there's a whole long middle part where the girls were like, uh-uh, you kidnapped us, we're not happy about it. You're not coming anywhere near us. We are like taking over this house. You guys go in the barn. And they're like, all right, like downtrodden. And it just satisfies on some level, some primal or whatever levels. And -- but it's like, nobody is getting hurt. No one is emotionally even hurt. And of course -- anyway, I think you know what I mean? But then it is interesting to analyze stuff that might not be -- might not have been apparent then, that is more apparent now. What we would think is something truthful or fair. Any who, that was my little talk at culture. I brought up culture.

[Crystal] I have a little piece of culture too.

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] I -- yes, I also reckon a little bit of culture this last week. I finished season two of The Circle on Netflix. Do you watch that show?

[Frank] It's not based on the Dave Eggers book, no? No, that was made into a movie.

[Crystal] Goodness, no. Goodness, no. It is a -- it's a reality television series where there's like I think it's like five to 10 people who are like willingly trapped in these apartments, right? They all have separate rooms, and they essentially interact with each other through social media, so through texting, where they're kind of verbalizing message, tell Frank I said hi, or whoever sends. And then they'll type it and it gets sent. And there's like catfishing that's happening too, where they have images of themselves, some are real, some are not. And then they like vote and rank each other. And based on their rankings, people get blocked. It's a fun show. I finished the entire season last week. I saw who won and very happy with it. So if you like reality TV, which is very, very cultural.

[Frank] No it is. I mean, talk about --

[Crystal] That's a good one.

[Frank] -- seeing things that might bring up issues in culture that might be problematic or interesting to discuss. I'm not sure I get the premise though. It's like -- is it like they never see each other? They're always in separate rooms? So it's all through?

[Crystal] It's all through like text messaging, right? So you can really be yourself or perform as other people. And that gets to be kind of interesting too, like people put on these different kinds of personas, sometimes the people that they want to be, sometimes because of fear of revealing their true selves. And then it comes to -- I think it touches on some like interesting aspects of current culture now, with social media and how we interact with social media and how, I think, there's this desire for like popularity and what that all means. But for them, the ultimate goal is to win like 100 grand, you know.

[Frank] So it's -- so they get voted off by the other people? Like that's like Big Brothery type?

[Crystal] Yeah, kind of. They get -- two people get named influencers and they kind of discuss who they get blocked off. But fun, if you enjoy reality TV.

[Frank] I do. I mean, I've talked about The Bachelor. I'd never really seek out -- I don't seek out a lot of TV. I sort of just see what happens. But -- and so I would occasionally catch The Bachelor, because I get that channel the most clear of all the channels that are on cable. So I've seen that and I can totally get into like the emotional manipulation of it sometimes and sometimes it's just like -- what bothers me most about it was -- it's sort of the -- it seems like the behavior, maybe because I'm just old, old, old. The behavior is so canned. It's almost like people don't talk originally or have original thought. It's like they just say what they think they should say, but not even conscious of that, like what their wants are, like, you know, I just want a guy who's honest or -- yeah, whatever. I mean, it doesn't seem like they're thinking. It's just like they're -- oh, I'm not here to make friends or -- I don't know. It just seems canned in a way.

[Crystal] There's definitely many performance aspects of it, like almost to the point where they're performing as -- because I'm sure a lot of them have seen previous seasons, so they could perform as these like reality TV archetypes almost. And that gets to be kind of interesting, whether intentionally or not. Yeah.

[Frank] And when something real happens, it's usually galvanizing or seems real, you know. But you're right. I think it's an industry into itself, and reality TV is sort of a misnomer in some ways, because they're so conversant in the tropes of reality TV, especially the show that might be going on, like The Bachelor, which has been around forever. So.

[Crystal] Yes, you always have that villain.

[Frank] Yeah, and it's all the edit thing. Like -- even the fans will say like, oh, they got the villain edit, knowing that they may not be villainous but they're getting the villain edit. I don't know. I don't -- I can't get too deep into it. I have enough emotional strife to worry about. So. But, you know, I could launch into my book. I always take it. Take it. I mean, now I'm actually stuttering because I'm thinking -- I have to think of the classic Frank segue, like, oh, right. We just talked about this and that leads right into my book, but I'm not sure it does. But I did, as I've been sort of threatening on the podcast for the last couple of weeks, months, weeks, whatever, to read something that was not something I normally would read or something different what then from what I have been reading, because I'm very much like high drama, maximum poignancy, like, you know, emotional pain. And if you know, Cathy and Heathcliff, are not running around the moors abusing each other, then I'm not happy about it. So I saw a book in the library that ha -- and it was -- I talked about it with a patron, actually, who was saying she just read it. And I know this patron can't really read -- doesn't want to read too emotionally fraught -- certainly doesn't want to read anything scary or too disturbing. So I was like, oh, coincidence. I like confluence, I like organic happening. So I was like, here we are talking about this book and I'm looking for a book sort of like that. And then I picked it up and like the front blurb review says like, a charming, witty, and heartwarming novel about life and love in a small town. I was like, okay, there we go. I was like, is it romance? It was -- it's kind of cataloged as fiction, but I was like, all right, let's see. And then the finish of that review is, the book is destined to improve your mood and restore your faith in humankind. And I was like, okay, that's a tall order. So the book is Early Morning Riser by Katherine Heiny. And I thought it was Katherine Heiny, but then I've discovered, again with pronunciation, it's Heiny, which is sort of cute. H-E-I-N-Y. And so here's the story. It starts in 2002. Actually, the whole book takes place over 17 years, from 2002 to 2019, which I also love when books do that, when you see a character or characters, through the years and how a new chapter could be three years later and you're like, oh, they have a baby. And I love that. Some people find it weird. But it's -- involves a young woman, a 26-year-old woman named Jane, who moves to a small town in Michigan called Boyne City. And like the first couple of pages, meets a man named Duncan who's like in his early 40s, like 42. So he's like 16 years older, but he has a perfect face and he looks like the Brawny paper towel man, just as handsome. And she's locked out of her house and he's like going to fix the lock for her. Like, when I started reading it, I was like feeling superior and like, I'm going to find all the tropes and all the -- like, just like we were talking about, like all the things that might be a subtext the author didn't intend or she might have intended, and that I wanted to pick up on. Like, so I was like -- I tend to write notes lately, which I hadn't always done. And so I wrote like, as my first note was like, when they first meet, like this possible romance. It's -- Jane says when he gets there and she notes his looks, like his looks are first described before her looks are described, which I thought was interesting. And she goes, "I'm afraid you may have to drill the lock out." And I was like, okay. And then he says, "I could pop the screen off the window and climb right in, if the window is unlocked," which I took to mean he could pop the screen off the window and climb right in if the window is unlocked, which means are you interested? Like, do you consent to this? Which I thought was interesting. And I don't like loving reading it like for all that subtext of like the intimate dance of attraction. And they do go to bed right away. I mean, like immediately. So. And then they embark on this relationship and then she discovers that basically Duncan has slept with practically the entire town, female side. And that's sort of like -- and she's like, oh, I just thought it was small town where everyone knew everybody else. And then she -- one of her friends that she has met, she's a second grade teacher. Another teacher, basically, was like, yeah, Duncan's very social. And she's like, you know, he's nice. And he is very sweet. He's very nice and very handy. It's just sort of like -- I mean, the character is written Duncan is -- you could really -- again, like we've talked earlier. So I guess there is that segue. You could be like, he slept with everybody in town. I can't deal with him. But as is written by Katherine Heiny, Heiny, he's a nice guy. And it was -- and it's not -- he's trying -- not trying to hide it and he's also not trying to be aggressively going about doing it. He's just attractive and people are attracted to him and he likes -- doesn't like sleeping alone. He's like a woodworker and a handyman and he's just sort of like, I'm of the earth and natural and happy and no drama here. And that's why Jane then, who comes in, is just like, wow, I am feeling the drama like -- but I shouldn't feel drama, because he's a nice guy. But even though he's slept with everybody, like, am I going to keep meeting cashiers and like, you know, other teachers who've slept with him and it's going to be weird? And yeah, so she has the anxiety about it. And I think that could sound familiar to anybody who's been in a relationship that one of them is always the one that sort of worries more, possibly, and also worries that they worry more and that they shouldn't worry more and that they don't want to be that person, which is also getting into The Bachelor, I guess. So that sort of sets the plot in motion. And there are -- what the book is -- have you ever read Anne Tyler? Anne Tyler --

[Crystal] No, I don't think so.

[Frank] -- when I was really young, wrote these quirky -- she wrote The Accidental Tourist, which was made into a movie, Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant. Actually, Katherine Heiny has said that Anne Tyler is one of her favorites. And it reminded me of Anne Tyler, which are usually very warm family books, a lot of quirky characters, we'd say, eccentric, and almost no one really gets along in a way. They're always sort of -- which is very real. But then the ultimate thing is family comes together and family is family, and family's there for you. And I think that's where maybe the heartwarming thing. What warms your heart, Crystal? What is heartwarming?

[Crystal] Oh, okay. It's that period.

[Frank] Off the top of your head. There you go. I mean, that's -- because I was like, I don't know if anything warms my heart. Maybe no heart to warm, some would say. When I think of -- when I first think of heartwarming, because when I saw that word in this book has been described that way, and I didn't feel that way reading it, is -- the closest I can come to is when my heart feels warm, but there's this tinge of sadness to it. That's sort of where I go to. That's the closest thing. Like I can imagine -- well, this is an interesting point, I've mentioned this before. I was struggling through the book, but whenever I -- not struggling, that's too extreme. I was leery of -- like I don't know if I'm going to fall into your charms, kind of thing. And I was just like analyzing that, because I think it's more -- it's less the book's fault. It's not the book's fault at all. It's the reader, like what you're bringing to it. Because one of the things we've done in this podcast talking about books, and we're not -- we don't slam books. And I also don't feel like slamming any book, because I don't think you should, or don't have to, because if you don't like it in quotes, you can still talk about it and acknowledge your own culpability in it, like what you've brought to it that make you -- because the book could be loved by someone else, that's why. And as a book podcast, I don't want to do that. I'm not giving a veiled explanation of how I want to slam this, because I don't. But what was I talking about?

[Crystal] But it's also, I do think that sometimes with a lot of books, like they have to reach you in the right moment. Because there are books where at a certain age, it would not have reached me and when I'm older, like I appreciate it more and vice versa. So just may be like not the right time for that book, doesn't mean that it's a bad book, you know?

[Frank] Absolutely. And I read Anne Tyler when I was in college, and I remember loving it. And this is similar, like family -- what is family? How families come together, how they, not betray each other, that's too extreme. But it's just how they annoy each other and -- but how they're there for each other. And that's, I guess where a heartwarming element comes in, because it feels very cozy to believe in family. And maybe as the years have passed, my sense of what family is has changed or has become a little more embittered. I don't know. But. So anyway, you've got Duncan and Jane and all their -- the quirky inhabitants of this small town. And this book is very much sort of like Anne Tyler was, very much about these vignettes of experience that are very -- in a way can be David Sedaris in their humor, like extended vignettes of like going on a field trip with all these second graders and all the crazy high jinx that ensue, you know, or also describing, like -- I loved actually, when she talked about the classroom. She would list the names of kids, which I sort of liked. Like she would give their names and there was some sort of pleasure in like hearing this sort of like, you know, Crystal Chen was picking her nose in the corner, kind of thing, you know what I mean. And these observations of being in the classroom that I sort of -- that's a good example of heartwarming. Because something about -- because maybe because like I feel more nostalgic about being in a classroom with a teacher than being in a family.

[Crystal] And watching me pick my nose.

[Frank] And watch you pick your nose.

[Crystal] It's heartwarming.

[Frank] And then eat it. You know, that kind of thing. So there's like -- it's very funny that way. But I could go on and on, as I do, but there -- and I wrote like all these notes. Like look at this.

[Crystal] Oh, that's amazing. Is that your like note-taking book for all the books that you read?

[Frank] It is. Actually, I have all my podcasts. I just showed Crystal on the camera. Somehow, I started during the lockdown, about last year in March, writing notes like this and I -- even if I don't use them, I sort of like having this memory of all these books that I've read. But --

[Crystal] You know, I love that because I do feel like I wish during the lockdown I had kept like a physical journal, because that's such a like moment in time that I hope never happens again, where we're, you know, all locked at home, and having that kind of physical archive is really kind of fascinating. I think it's great that you have that.

[Frank] I -- and I like -- I haven't been able -- I used to keep a diary religiously up until -- God it's 20 years now. I stopped for various reasons that I won't reveal until later, maybe. But. And I don't -- I haven't felt impulse -- an impulse to go back to -- I mean, I felt an impulse to go back to, but I haven't gone back to it. But I -- like you just said, I like this sort of record of the books I've read and maybe get my emotional sense of my life through the books I've read and the notes that I decided to take.

[Crystal] I used to do the same thing. I used to keep a lot of physical journals, especially of a list of my enemies, but then I was like, that's too much of a paper trail. I'm going to keep it all mental then they'll never know.

[Frank] Is that like the burning book for being girls?

[Crystal] It's just like for myself, right.

[Frank] Just remind yourself of your enemies. You're like, I'm feeling a little down. Let me look at my enemies. That'll make you feel good. Can I get back to Early Morning Riser, the book I read?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] So, like I said, I could -- there are a lot of characters that weave their way through the book. And there are -- some are funny, some might be strange and all eccentric, quirky, enjoyable. And like I said, you get these set pieces of this small-town life that -- the book is designed not to so much push through the plot like this cliffhanger plot, but to enjoy the life in this town. And always in a non-tragic way, it's all just -- like she looks at it with a wry, the author looks at this small-town life with a wry sort of, you know, is mildly annoyed, but like ultimately goodhearted way. And I think that's maybe where the heartwarming, you know, restore your faith in humanity review can come in, because it's not about like horrible betrayals and things like that. So. But I did find something interesting that I want to mention, that first of all, in her writing, she describes a lot of events, like between kids or about the anxiety of Christmas giving, with a lot of military or war-like metaphors, which I found interesting, like sort of -- I even wrote notes, like, you know, she said the run-up to Christmas was like the Cuban Missile Crisis in terms of escalating tension, because it's so stressful to figure out getting gifts. And she said like two girls, like Sierra Savich [assumed spelling] age and like, you know, Jennifer Connelly, or whatever sitting together at -- in class was like the summit between Rabin and Arafat, you know, like Middle East conflict. And I thought that was sort of interesting. And she even has an analogy of like second grade kids, like over the summer, forget everything they've learned, they have to be retaught right away. And she said -- the author said something like, children forget everything and had to relearn just like stroke patients. I mean, these sort of like darker analogies in this sort of whimsical way. And I think the author might find it very amusing to sort of have these intense comparisons when it comes to like little kids or like a thing like Christmas, which like is a certain kind of sense of humor that I was just more quizzical. One more thing is that there's a character -- and this is really where you get -- can get the sense of Duncan's goodness, rather than just being like a lothario in the small town of Boyne City, is that his coworker is named Jimmy. And Jimmy, well, talk about problematic, is described in various ways by the towns people as slow learning and is never given -- you're never handed a diagnosis by the author, like the small town loves him and cares for him and is not derisive of him. So you can say he's intellectually challenged, he's emotionally whatever. I don't know what you'd want to say. But he lives with his mother and works for Duncan in the woodworking shop. And it's a very casual arrangement. And, you know, Jimmy is all the things that you could imagine, like very sweet and eager. And he's like a couple years younger than Duncan. So he's like in his late 30s at the beginning of the book and by the end of it he's like, you know, in his mid-50s. So he's not a kid. But he's like emotionally -- what's the word? Not disabled, but emotionally -- or intellectually. Oh, I think I'll just leave it as -- what they call it in the book, a slow learner. And I think we all know the euphemisms or maybe the correct term for what that would be. Do you get what I mean? So he's a character that is very prominent in the book. And what I found interesting about him and this is maybe revealing something about the end. I mean, it's -- so -- well, we'll see where I go. So stop listening if you want to know -- don't want to know the end, if I actually reveal it. Because you're really following Jane and Duncan and their romantic entanglement coming together, breaking apart through the years and how they navigate that. And Jimmy is always present among other characters. But Jimmy interested me in that it -- should I just -- should I say -- we're always quick about spoilery things. Like I feel like on one hand we shouldn't reveal any spoilers, we want people to read the book. On the other hand, I want to talk about it. I know some people have commented about us not revealing spoilers or revealing spoilers, but. And also, I always think of a coworker who told me she does not mind spoilers. She does -- if you tell her the end of a book, she'll still read it, which surprised the heck out of me, because I want to know nothing about a book.

[Crystal] Well, it depends on the book too. Some of them are really plot-based and I feel like the spoiler could ruin it. But if it's like you're just kind of reading it because you enjoy the story and the characters, maybe it won't matter as much.

[Frank] All right, you know what? I've just decided I'm going to finish this off and not explicitly reveal what happens, but illuminate what I want to say by the writing and the book itself. Because what I picked up on, was that when Jane describes Duncan, she uses the word and the color gold a lot. Like she's looking at him and -- let's see. Let me look through my notes, darling. She sees golden glints in his eyes, or the sun is playing in his face, creating golden crescents on his face. And I really did write in my notes. I got picked up oh, gold and sunlight mean love to Jane in the literary style of the book. And then at one point she's looking at Jimmy, this character I just talked about who's considered a slow learner by the village, but he's very much loved and very much a light presence in the book. She's looking at him and sees his hair ruffled and with golden highlights from the sun. And I immediately was like, oh, oh, oh, they're setting something up here. Like Jimmy is a man. He has these emotional intellectual issues, but are they possibly creating another love interest for Jane? Like she's going to maybe all her anxiety and confusion about Duncan's past and possible present, like because he's cheating on her now even? There's an ex-wife in the town, that's a big character. Is this being set up to maybe introduce this so-called unlikely love interest? Which really interested me. And I won't tell you where it ends and that's where the non-spoiler comes, but I will say that I think, in a very real way, Jimmy for Jane -- and there's a very momentous plot point involving Jimmy and his mother that affects Jane profoundly. Jimmy for Jane might be a symbol, a human symbol, of what it really means to love. Love ageless and evergreen. Seldom seen by two. See, if Rhonda was still here, she'd know what that is. Do you know what song it is? It's Barbara Streisand, Evergreen. All right.

[Crystal] Is that from The Sound of Music? No. The only reference I get.

[Frank] Every time I sing, you'll be like, is that from The Sound of Music? So that's Early Morning --

[Crystal] When was the book published?

[Frank] It's this year. I also -- a new book, which I have been reading a lot of classics and older books, like -- so I wanted to read something new as well. So that's Early Morning Riser by Katherine Heiny. And I think I actually ended that conversation pretty well. And I think it does justice. Even when someone reads it, they won't be like, what was Frank talking about? They'll sort of get it. But I didn't reveal any kind of ending or even the tragic midpoint of the book that sets off a lot of stuff. It was interesting.

[Crystal] And then, so somebody picks up this book and reads it, you feel like you're going to finish it and break out into song?

[Frank] If they listen to this podcast, they will. Actually, it's funny you should say that, because music plays a big part in this book. There's a lot of lyrics on the page. And one of the characters, Janes' best friend, always brings her mandolin to different -- to events and parties, and she always breaks out in song.

[Crystal] No, nice.

[Frank] It all connects, baby. It all works. So, anyway, how I do go on. What about you?

[Crystal] So I have a book that I definitely want to talk about and that's the book I'm going to talk about. Before I talk about that one though, I do want to talk about another book.

[Frank] Ooh. Okay.

[Crystal] And that book is -- it's a children's picture book. I just wanted to like -- as a little side note, I read this a picture book called Laxmi's Mooch, which the children's librarian here, Kelly, let me reads. She gets tons of picture books. And it is like the cutest book about this little girl who, when she's playing a game of pretend for friends, her friends are like, oh, you should be a cat because you have whiskers. So this whole book is about her like learning to love her moustache.

[Frank] What? No.

[Crystal] Yes, it's so cute. I love the whole, like self-love aspect of it. It's not about like shaving your moustache, bleaching it. Any of that stuff is just being like, you know, this is a part of my body, I should celebrate this. And by the end of the book, she kind of has all her classmates, they are all drawing on moustaches. I am hardcore campaigning for this book to be on all the best children's books lists, including best books for kids, which is the NYPL list. I'm not being paid to advocate, but I think it's such a wonderful -- it's by Shelly Anand, illustrated by Nabi H. Ali.

[Frank] Laxmi. So she calls her moustache mooch, a mooch?

[Crystal] It's a mooch. Which I feel like the word mooch is a little bit ruined by what's his name? Anthony Scaramucci. But I feel like this is going to bring it back, you know, into something a little bit nicer, more positive.

[Frank] That's funny, because in Early Morning Riser, Jane bleaches her moustache at one point and Duncan notices it and she's like, well, I didn't think you'd notice. I guess I must look like Colonel Sanders.

[Crystal] And see, this is why kids should have these books when they're young, so they don't feel ashamed of their moustaches. They should celebrate it.

[Frank] Twirl your moustache like you just don't care. Laxmi's Mooch by Shelly Anand.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Nice.

[Crystal] Yes, I'm really pushing for that book all over the place. People, get that book.

[Frank] I appreciate you bringing in children's in the why element. Thank you, dear.

[Crystal] I mean, if I could just talk about that book for the rest of the time, I would.

[Frank] You could.

[Crystal] But I probably couldn't. So the book that I actually want to talk about is -- actually. kind of two books, but the one that I read for this this time around was How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America essays by Kiese Laymon.

[Frank] Wait, who wrote this?

[Crystal] Kiese Laymon. So I read, I think, the original 2013 edition, but there's this new 2020 edition that came out with some revisions, at the end of last year. And essentially it's just a collection of essays that's about like race, family, violence, many different topics, music. The music ones, I didn't get so much because I'm like, I'm not that tuned in with music, unlike you, Frank. But.

[Frank] Not interested today's music.

[Crystal] I enjoyed it. And I, you know, really love his work, because I think his writing is so lyrical and evocative. He's also somebody who writes with this kind of brutal honesty. A lot of his work talks about grappling with like internal reckonings that also really reflects like bigger reckonings in like the cultural movement of America. And so one of the books that he -- I think people know him more from his previous book, Heavy, which was like out in 2019 and it won the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction. Have you read that book, by the way?

[Frank] Heavy? No. Essays on personal essays, again?

[Crystal] So the -- How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America, those are personal essays, so it's a collection, but Heavy was his memoir. And I kind of wanted to talk about both, because like Heavy is just like one of those books that is something that I -- like, I would say top five books I've like read in my life. Like I think it's just such a wonderfully written beautiful work. And I think even the choosing of that title is so kind of evocative, because that -- Heavy represents so many different things in his life. One being that physical heaviness of his weight that he talks about, one being like the weight of like a history of trauma in his family and also, this kind of larger idea like systemic trauma in America and how the weight of all those things keeps like pulling him down and just kind of mirrors his like cycles of pain and abuse. And I like to describe it as like the narrative of Heavy is very much like this Ferris Wheel that you're on, where you're kind of like going up and around in these like little circles. And it feels like as you're reading the book and as he's recounting his life and the things that are happening his life, there are these moments where it feels like he's kind of rising up in that Ferris Wheel and feeling like maybe he's pulling free of everything, but then something happens and it's just like drags and back down again. So for example --

[Frank] Good image.

[Crystal] So for example, like throughout the book, like at certain points, he loses the weights. He becomes a professor. He kind of -- he deals with this gambling addiction that he gets on top of and like is able to leave the casinos like up 10 grand, right? But then this heaviness kind of comes back, pulls him down even deeper than before. His weight comes back. As a professor, he's accused of fraud. He goes back to the casino, loses all his money. And then he writes in such a way that he kind of seduces you into thinking that he's going to break free of this cycle, but he never really seems to.

[Frank] I'm biting my nails. I'm just like so like on the edge of my seat.

[Crystal] Yeah, and I think it's -- the way he writes, it's like you -- I relate to books where I just feel so strongly for the main char -- even though it's not a main character, it's like he himself in some ways. And you want that happy ending for him and that kind of like setup for the American dream, and you want him to see -- to like live out that dream. But it feels like constantly, the rug is being pulled off from under him. And I think that also reflects the cycles of like racial trauma in America. What he's really good about doing is he is so clear in his vision of life and he is so frank. He does not sugar-coat anything. He doesn't try to sell us a lie. And like, by the end of that book, you're really left wondering like, does he make it out that cycle? You never really know. And I think that's something that is so true to like our experience in this world. Like you want things to come out so beautifully and positively, but who knows what can happen, right? So that one, that's Heavy. I highly recommend everybody like reading that book if you can. So this one with the essays, I think he does a lot of these similar things. It's a book that really kind of interrogates black culture, it talks about like the ways that he as a black man is kind of slowly killing himself. So I have like so many great quotes in it. So like these are going to be kind of long, so I feel bad about reading all of this. But he is such a wonderful writer.

[Frank] No, I like it. I always think we should give an example of their writing. Like I wanted to give a funny example from the book, but I didn't do it. So please go. Don't feel self-conscious.

[Crystal] Okay, should I whisper it to make it more like easy?

[Frank] Let's save the ASMR for the end of this show. You can just say it out loud.

[Crystal] So while -- so in his introduction, I guess, he kind of talks about like why he writes this book, how it started. And he writes, "While the editorial process slowed, picked back up, and eventually stopped, I was getting worse at being human. One cold night in New York, someone I love told me that I was precisely the kind of human being I claim to despise. I defended myself against this truth and really against responsibility as American monsters and American murderers tend to do. And I tried to make this person feel as absolutely worthless, confused, and malignant as I was. Later that night, I couldn't sleep. And for the first time in my life, I wrote the sentence, "I've been slowly killing myself and others close to me." A year or two after I started this book, I realized I wanted my work to be a site of the catastrophic and pleasurable, the intellectual and the everyday, the public and the private, the awkwardly destructive and the holy sublime. Instead of imagining standard literary audiences, I knew that I wanted to question traditional literary fictive trajectory by writing to folks or sensibilities who don't read for a living and those folks or sensibilities who are paid to read for a living in everything I created. I knew that I wanted to create work that exploded with colorful profundity and comedy, the reckless order of American human being, especially since as so much of the nation was in a dizzying rush to crown itself multicultural, post-racial, and mostly innocence." That's just like in the first page.

[Frank] So he's ambitious.

[Crystal] I mean, yeah. And this was, again, 2013, it was when this was originally written. And he -- there's a series of different essays, a lot of it talking about his like personal life. The one that is -- even with every collection, I feel like there's like standouts and there's some, yeah like, oh, this is good, make a little filler. The one that I really loved was the title essay, like, so How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America. And it starts off in such a way you're like -- I don't want to curse, but like, what the heck? And so it starts by saying, "I've had guns pulled on me by four people under Central Mississippi skies, once by a white undercover cop, once by a young brother who tried to rob me for the leftovers of a week work study check, once by my mother, and twice by myself. Not sure how or if I've helped many folks say yes to life, but I've definitely aided in the few folks dying slowly in America, all without the aid of a gun." And he goes on to sort of like talk more about his own story, he kind of like contextualizes things that are happening at different points. Like when he was 17, he was, you know, however many years younger and he then -- people like Rekia Boyd, Benjamin Brown, Trayvon Martin, Han Gil, he kind of contextualizes his story within those kinds of happenings, those murders are happening in America. And the other thing that I also wanted to say about his work, because not to like say all writers are like this, but I'll say like this, like I've read Ibram X. Kendi and I really enjoy his work, but he himself has talked about how one of his weaknesses is maybe like talking about like women or talking -- or bringing them into the story. I think Kiese Laymon is very good about talking about the importance of black women and the women in his life, in a way that sometimes male authors sort of forget. And he talks a lot about his mother, his grandmother, and his aunt, Sue. I think -- let's see. So one of the stories -- sorry, one of the essays is called Echo. And that is like a series of letters between himself and other writers, including Mychal Denzel Smith, Darnell Moore, Kai M. Green, and Marlon Peterson. And he writes in a letter to Darnell Moore, "Darnell, your letter really made me think about how not knocking another brother's hustle was seen as black men loving black men. Your letter reminds me that any love that necessitates deception is not love. It doesn't matter if that supposed love is institutional or personal. Your letter reminds me that when you don't let love breathe, you can't be surprised when you and those around you suffocate. We black men have suffocated our partners and ourselves for a long, long time. We black men have been suffocating for a long, long time. And I like to stop." He also writes in this other essay called Kanye West and how Lester Myers are better at their jobs, how Lester being his, I think, step-grandfather I want to say. Like, so in it, he kind of calls out Kanye West and some of like his lyrics in regards to women. He writes, "I get where it comes from. We were all fed the same thing. As inspirational as we found Dre's music, Snoop's flow, and Cube's criticism, an articulated fear and hatred of black women was part of what made them so nationally attractive, like nearly all of our lyrical pedagogues, the MCs that came a generation before Kanye practiced a form of spectacular psychological and/or emotional dismantling of black women passed down by the practices, policies, and patriarchy of America." And he talks about how -- like, he writes this essay that kind of calls out both his grandfather -- step-grandfather, Les, and Kanye. And then he writes, "The essay generally helped me run away from the truth, from reckoning, from meaningful change. I don't want to run anymore. I am better at --" he says that the real f word. I'm just going to say, like effing. "I am better at effing up the lies with a few women who have unconditionally loved me than Les is out lying and Kanye West is out making brilliant American music. And even worse than the bruising parts of Kanye's arts, the paranoid femiphobia of HaLester Myers, the pimpish persona of Stevie J, the abusive gender politics of Paul Ryan, Todd Akin, and the thousands of confused brothers out there who think misogyny is the newest Italian dish at Olive Garden. I have intimately effed up women's lives while congratulating myself for not being Kanye West, HaLester Myers, Stevie J, Paul Ryan, Todd Akin, or the brothers who like that misogyny with a few breadsticks." So, I mean, that just gives you a sample of his like writing style and his ability to be honest, like truly honest with himself to be vulnerable, to call himself out and to kind of set up this idea like, we just need to do better in our lives, right?

[Frank] That's what I was going to say. What I got from your reading, which I like, is when someone can very much delineate the problems that they see in society and in people in general, but to actually admit to it yourself is, to me, very, very emotionally brings me right in in a way, because I trust them. I trust someone who can actually say, yeah I perpetuated this too. I did it. To admit something like that is somewhat rare, it seems, you know, to -- in a contemplative way.

[Crystal] Yeah, I think also just with his memoir in general, I think sometimes with -- you know, why they're kind of called memoirs and maybe like, not so much autobiographies in some ways is like there's this element of like memory and sometimes people want to gloss over things and kind of write a happier story from themselves or like a happier ending for themselves, right? And he doesn't do that, and I kind of really appreciate that because I think that's really realistic.

[Frank] Nice.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Oh, wow. What a whirlwind of passion you took me through. What's his name again?

[Crystal] Kiese Laymon.

[Frank] Kiese, we'll have it in the blog post, obviously all the books you've just discussed.

[Crystal] Great writer.

[Frank] Wow. Good to know. When did Heavy come out?

[Crystal] Twenty nineteen.

[Frank] Oh, so he's -- this is - and the next one is his new book that is just a year later.

[Crystal] Yeah, it's kind of confusing the chronology of it, because Heavy was written in 2019, but this one was -- How to Slowly Kill Yourself is written in 2013, I think, probably because Heavy did so well, got revised, released in 2020. And then he has another book that I am just starting on, called Long Division, which I think features young adults in it. Although I don't know if it's really like a young adult's book, you know.

[Frank] How did you find this writer?

[Crystal] Lynn. Lynn Lobash.

[Frank] Someone -- Lynn is our Readers Services Director. Yeah.

[Crystal] Yeah, I remember she was -- raved about this book and then got me to read it and I raved about it too.

[Frank] That's funny. Lynn loved Train Dreams, which I talked about a couple of months ago, which I loved. All roads lead to Lynn Lobash.

[Crystal] She's a very good book recommender, except when she tries to recommend horror books to me, like Lanny, and I'm just like, no. No, I'm not here for this.

[Frank] Wait, what book did you just say?

[Crystal] Lanny, I think.

[Frank] Max Porter?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I would -- that's the book, along with Train Dreams, I was just going to recommend -- say that Lynn recommended to me and -- which is not really horror.

[Crystal] Oh, she just recommended that book to everyone.

[Frank] But she loved it and I loved it too. And I talked about it on the podcast early in the pandemic, Lanny by Max Porter. I love that book and I know Lynn loved it too. Lynn and I have similar tastes in some ways.

[Crystal] I don't want to say -- it's not a bad book. I'll just say that I just get very --

[Frank] You read it?

[Crystal] I did read it, but I get very like freaked out by like kind of horror-type things [inaudible] before.

[Frank] It's not a horror book.

[Crystal] I don't know.

[Frank] I mean, well, there are horrorful things.

[Crystal] It's creepy.

[Frank] The boy goes missing. There is this --

[Crystal] That sounds horrible.

[Frank] I'm like, it's not horror.

[Crystal] Because there's this like ghostly voice and all this kind of stuff.

[Frank] I was going to say, it's not horror. It's just that the boy goes missing and there's this monstrous presence creeping in over him.

[Crystal] Definitely horror.

[Frank] See that's my baseline. That's what reading Early Morning Riser was like, can I deal with heartwarming when I want to like have my guts ripped out? Thank you.

[Crystal] I should tell you that like a long time ago, I started reading like Rosemary's Baby. And I think I thought it was a comedy book and it was quite a surprise. I was like, where's the comedy in this? And it was a lot of scary stuff.

[Frank] Did you ever see the movie?

[Crystal] I didn't see the movie. I don't like scary movies.

[Frank] Anyway, Ira Levin who wrote Rosemary's Baby also wrote a book called The Stepford Wives, which was made into a movie, which is one of my most obsessed about movies. You just -- we just went off in a really cute tandem. Ira Levin. So you're -- you really read all over the place, Missy. Speaking of reading, why don't you tell everybody who's listening and they're eagerly awaiting to know the next book we're going to read and we're going to read it together for the next episode and where we found this book? Oh, no. Whenever -- she just tuned -- Crystal just tuned out, because that -- oh, I already got goose pimples and not in a pleasant way. That means Crystal's going to do ASMR thing from [inaudible]

[Crystal] Can you hear me?

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] I think I was just going to whisper what our selection is.

[Frank] God. Do I have to -- am I guessing, like what you're doing or you're just doing your thing?

[Crystal] A little bit of both, you should guess.

[Frank] All right. Why don't you make your announcement --

[Crystal] Wait, I'm going to make my announcement. Yes, yes, I'm getting to that. Right. Jeez, let me do it.

[Frank] All right, I'm going to shut up.

[Crystal] So my announcement is we're going to read Insurrecto by Gina Apostol. It's going to be really fun. We're going to be doing it for Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, which is the month of May, and I'm super excited for it. Frank, why are you covering your face? Because it's come back on the camera.

[Frank] I don't like this ASMR thing like I'm whispering. It's like --

[Crystal] You love it.

[Frank] It's sort of true. Well, I'm not -- I might eventually, but it definitely -- you know, when you say hypnosis won't bother me or massage doesn't do anything for me or -- stop it, Crystal. It's sort of like when you're forced to listen to someone whisper or do this ASMR thing. If you're forced to or just do, eventually it will change you emotionally, because like you're whispering and you're tapping was making me feel emotional. Like it's almost like bringing up -- well, like, you know, not in a bad way.

[Crystal] [inaudible] Interesting. So more like feelings welling up inside of you?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] Isn't that what ASMR is supposed to do is just relax you.

[Crystal] I think it's supposed to like, some people get like a tingly heads, you know, like, you know, when you brush your hair or something like that, they kind of may tingle.

[Frank] See, pleasant though.

[Crystal] It's supposed to be pleasant.

[Frank] Well, there's something intimate about whispering.

[Crystal] Look at my object.

[Frank] Crystal was tapping on a plastic rabbit cup.

[Crystal] Okay. I mean, you make it sound not cool, but it's super cool, right? So I did this purposely. So this is a 3D printed cup that -- well, we used to do these programs with our 3D printer, which has moved to like another branch. We have like a youth tech department and the teams would make a lot of different objects. And so I found this while I was like looking on the bookshelf to -- and this week we are like moving into like a new phase of openings so people can come in, do browsing, use the computers. So I thought like this would be a good way to celebrate that and kind of maybe put it out in the world that hopefully we're going to be back to doing like in-person programs again. So we could do like cool activities like this with the teams. I know that's far off in the future, but I am hopeful about that.

[Frank] You thought that would be a good way to welcome people back into the library? Okay.

[Crystal] Yes. So why not? Isn't it so cute? People can't see this, but it's adorable.

[Frank] Maybe the producer should put a picture of that on the blog post so people can know how crazy you are.

[Crystal] Screenshot this.

[Frank] It is cute, I guess, the more you force me to look at it. Oh, I don't know.

[Crystal] It made a nice noise. It's like the little pencil holder, but it's not really deep enough for pencils, because I didn't do the measurements right, but that's okay. It's all part of growing.

[Frank] Well, little golf pencils like we use the library would be big enough. Well, there you go. You must have some of those in the branch.

[Crystal] Exactly.

[Frank] Well, all right. I mean, TBD on the ASMR about how I feel. TBD on the ASMR on the HIF, how I feel.

[Crystal] All right.

[Frank] It's interesting though.

[Crystal] I mean, maybe as this progresses, I can also try to hypnotize you.

[Frank] Oh, Jesus. Do you do that too?

[Crystal] I don't know. Maybe I can. [ Inaudible Speaker ]

[Crystal] Why?

[Frank] I don't know. Your like powers are growing.

[Crystal] I just want you to talk about your -- I want you to talk about your emotions and stuff with us.

[Frank] You're going to like -- you're just going to reduce me to tears, aren't you? I can feel it coming. I'm so tightly wound.

[Crystal] I did want to bring up one other thing, which I know we're at the end of this which is maybe too much extra.

[Frank] This has been very extra.

[Crystal] Did Gwen ever tell you that we had this thing called opinion currency?

[Frank] Gwen? No.

[Crystal] So, you know, like when sometimes you'll be like, oh, I just want to add my two cents. We had what we call the opinion currency. So for me it was Crystal nickel. For Gwen, it was a Gwen gem. So we'd be like, you know, whenever we drop an opinion about a book, we'd be like, oh, I just wanted to put in my crystal nickel.

[Frank] Oh, that's cute.

[Crystal] So I wanted to do like a rating system for the books I talked about, right? So --

[Frank] This is basically a currency attached to opinion?

[Crystal] Yes, and I know what yours would be, Frank. Frank franc.

[Frank] Frank franc, like French franc?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] A Frank franc.

[Crystal] Yes. So I want to rate the books I talked about too.

[Frank] Do it. Let me hear.

[Crystal] Okay. Laxmi's Mooch. It's 5 out of 5 crystal nickels. Heavy by Kiese Laymon 5 out of 5 crystal nickels. And How to Kill -- Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America, Essays by Kiese Laymon, only just because it's a collection, like an anthology, that means 4 out of 5 crystal nickels.

[Frank] Oh wow. So five is your max, is your best?

[Crystal] Five is my max, yes.

[Frank] So it's a 1 to 5 scale?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I hope to figure out what my Frank franc is.

[Crystal] For your -- yeah, for your book. What my scale would pay me. Maybe I'll have to make it 1 to 10.

[Crystal] I think you should do 1 to 5.

[Frank] I don't have to be forced into playing this currency game because you and Gwen did it. Gwen was mine.

[Crystal] But this is supposed to help our readers. So we should have the same like five scale.

[Frank] All right, you're -- you know what? This relationship suddenly is moving too fast, Crystal. You're bringing in too much and you're overwhelming my tiny brain. I just want to sing, sing, sing. Actually, that's from Seven Brides for Seven Brothers to bring it back, even though the word wasn't sing, it was spring. When you [singing]. Wait -- forget it. I can't remember. But Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I'm going to take -- I'm going to reclaim my power and bring that movie back after all that you've thrown at me, crystal nickels. I'll think about the Frank franc. I actually like saying Frank franc though. Given the use of Frank franc, how do you say the French franc?

[Crystal] I don't know. I'm not French.

[Frank] The French item of currency is a franc, F-R-A-N-C.

[Crystal] I guess I was putting a different spin on it so it didn't sound like Frank's like the meats Frank's, you know?

[Frank] The meats.

[Crystal] I don't know.

[Frank] Oh dear. That's -- all right, let's not go down that road. I liked hey, Frank, franc. I'll have to think about what my range is going to be, if I even decide to participate.

[Crystal] Its 1 to 5. I think you've decided.

[Frank] You're bossy. That's another problematic word possibly, calling a woman bossy. But all right. We need to take a -- we need to stop.

[Crystal] Yeah. Yeah. This podcast has to end at some point.

[Frank] I think this needs to be heavily edited, producer. But I will think about it, even though you just said no, it's 1 to 5. Well, I guess if your crystal nickel is 1 to 5, then mine has to be. All right, fine. If I choose to even participate. TBD.

[Crystal] And just theoretically, how would you have rated the book that you discussed?

[Frank] You are forcing me into doing things I don't want to do. Look at that smile. If you could see Crystal smile, she basically looks like --

[Crystal] Definite lie, I'm not smiling at all.

[Frank] -- I get what I want. I'm not doing it. I can't. Not with this book. Because -- I mean, I don't want to disappoint you, but it's interesting. I don't know if I -- I think it's cute, but ratings, it's what -- this podcast is never going to end. We keep talking. I don't know, but rate --. We can talk about rate -- actually, we will talk about ratings the next time, because I'm weird about putting a number to an emotion in a way.

[Crystal] I'm not weird about that at all. I love it.

[Frank] Slow clap. Slow clap for Crystal. Let's leave it there, because you have just stood that ground well. Okay. So as Crystal said, we're reading Insurrecto the next time and --

[Crystal] Insurrecto.

[Frank] Insurrecto. What is the list again? The Asian American Pacific Islander list?

[Crystal] Heritage Month.

[Frank] Heritage Month list. And I hope everyone listening joins us. So thanks, Crystal. I need to lie down. Thank you.

[Crystal] Take a rest.

[Frank] But it's been a pleasure. Maybe we shouldn't drink coffee before these things. And everybody out there, thanks for listening. See you next time.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.