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This week is Frank and Crystal's first book club together. They went back to the 125 Books We Love list and chose to read All Quiet on the Western Front, a novel set during World War I by Erich Maria Remarque about the stresses of war and re-entry to civilian life told from the perspective of a young German soldier.

All Quiet On the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque

I am young, I am twenty years old; yet I know nothing of life but despair, death, fear, and fatuous superficiality cast over an abyss of sorrow. . . .

This is the testament of Paul Baumer, who enlists with his classmates in the German army during World War I. They become soldiers with youthful enthusiasm. But the world of duty, culture, and progress they had been taught breaks in pieces under the first bombardment in the trenches. Through years of vivid horror, Paul holds fast to a single vow: to fight against the principle of hate that meaninglessly pits young men of the same generation but different uniforms against one another . . . if only he can come out of the war alive. (Publisher summary)

 

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, books, books, books, sometimes culture, sometimes what to read next, depending on the listener. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] You're like what? What? Still getting your sea legs? Getting your act together? Well, I had a great time last time.

[Crystal] I did, too. It was really fun.

[Frank] Yeah. And I got to tell you. We're already like -- I don't know what this means. I mean, I could be funny and set up like a fake rivalry or maybe a real one.

[Crystal] I think a real one. Right?

[Frank] But the list that -- you're like, I think a real one. You're just, like, throwing it down. Okay. Where someone had already commented to us about how wonderful you are and said, as a quota to their email, "Crystal never stopped whispering. Frank never stopped singing." I see a little diametrically opposed situation there, maybe. I don't know. I mean, if I'm singing at top volume, and you're whispering, that could be an interesting conversation. But I guess your ASMR fascination is picking up with some people, which is fine. Just be gentle with me.

[Crystal] Of course.

[Frank] Slow, steady, easy. But otherwise, everything okay?

[Crystal] Yeah, everything is fine.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Business is huge?

[Crystal] Pretty much.

[Frank] I mean, we're going to -- I think we did talk about this before, but obviously gearing up for another phase in the library of service. Are you looking forward to that?

[Crystal] Yes and no. Like, yes because I look forward to seeing a lot of our patrons that we haven't seen before, especially a lot the teens who don't usually come in. Right? But also, of course, like, with any new phase, there's a lot of unknowns. And there's a lot of nervousness around that. But, you know, I think it'll be -- I do miss helping people in person, not just over the phone. So that will be really nice.

[Frank] We did talk about this the last time, of course, because it's on our minds. I remember you saying you missed the teens, which would stand out to me. Yeah. And I think I've probably said this, too. I'm curious about how we'll be needed. When you say you miss helping people, I agree and how we might be needed above and beyond our usual delivery of service. I don't know. I mean, I'm personally preoccupied with getting the branch ready and thinking about the -- which I love doing. So thinking about the spaces in the branch and maybe reorganize them in anticipation of I don't know what. I'm into this space, because I feel like if you get the space -- and I'm all about the physical space. So if you get the space organized in a way, it can be very conducive to the work people need to do or the environment they need to be in or want to be in. Or it could be fighting them. You know what I mean? Like, I think, like Feng Shui, I guess. I mean, I don't know. I don't know much about that. But just organizing the space optimally because it's such a beautiful space, too. So -- oh, somebody else had emailed us about hopefully coming -- oh, the same -- oh, no. Someone had commented and positively about us and said they can't wait to visit New York and then come to Jefferson Market. I hope we're open.

[Crystal] Jefferson Market and Woodstock. Don't forget. That's my branch.

[Frank] Yeah, whatever.

[Crystal] It's in the Bronx. I understand it's far.

[Frank] I mean, people should go up there.

[Crystal] It is. It's a really nice building. Yeah.

[Frank] I always wanted to go to -- it's Woodlawn? Yeah, Woodlawn Cemetery. A famous cemetery. I've been to the one of Brooklyn, Greenlawn. Cemeteries are interesting places. That might be a good segue to the book maybe.

[Crystal] I mean, yes. Yes and no.

[Frank] Well, Crystal and I read, everybody listening, and all you out there probably did too, because you're such good listeners, All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque. And I've said this before, too, I think that during this time this last year, I find myself wanting to go back to what are called classics or older books. I don't really know why. I don't have a comment on that except maybe the usual want to revisit or visit something I haven't visited that's considered a classic. Something that persists through time that might -- that has something to say for generations. I don't know. I mean, but I find I want to go backwards. So our 125 Books We Love list, which was published last year for the New York Public Library's 125th anniversary, this was one of them on it. And I was very surprised that you -- why should I say that? That's sort of rude. But that you wanted to read it too and that you actually had read it.

[Crystal] It's in law school curriculums, I think.

[Frank] Yeah. Well, did you read it in school?

[Crystal] I think so. Yeah.

[Frank] Because you had said, interestingly, when we announced this, that you read it because you were into reading books about war at some point.

[Crystal] Yeah, I've gone through weird phases of being into certain types of books. I still remember when I was a teenager being into books about horses. And, you know, I do enjoy -- I think with a lot of war books, there's a lot to say about humanity. And that's really powerful. And, of course, like, it's something that carries through over time.

[Frank] Well, how highfalutin of you. It's interesting. So yeah, All Quiet on the Western Front is about World War I, 1916 to 1918/19, which is also coincidentally the time of the pandemic then, which was called the Spanish flu, which didn't originate in Spain. We've discussed this. I think Spain was a neutral territory during World War I. And they were the only country reporting honestly about the pandemic. Other countries weren't because they thought it would hurt morale for the public and the soldiers during the war. So it seemed to have originated in Spain, but Spain was just reporting on. And that's why it was called the Spanish flu. So -- now I lost my thread. Oh, it's about World War I. Erich Maria Remarque was, like, 29 years old when he wrote it. He was at that age, 18 years old, when World War I happened and was -- and went right to war and fought on the front and was injured multiple times and wrote this book, one of his first, certainly the one that made him well known. And it's from -- he's German. And so he writes from the German side, from the German perspective. I remember, like, when I was 18, having to sign up for the Selective Service that I had to register when I turned 18 at the post office, which is basically registering for the draft if there was a war. Did you know that? Do you know about that? Do you boy, colleagues --

[Crystal] My colleagues. No, they have not told me about that. But that is something that I, like, learned about when I have looked into the summer youth employment program. Like, that's not something that I've had to do. Yeah.

[Frank] So I remember being 100% terrified when I had to just go to the post office and do it. And, of course, I diligently did it because I was told to and I had to. Then I was convinced, of course, that like the next day, war would be declared, and I would have to go to war. But it's interesting, like, what did I know of war or fighting in a war? I guess, from movies, TV, books like this. I mean, I think All Quiet on the Western Front, as far as I know -- I don't know a lot about war literature. But it seems to have set the standard for a certain kind of narrative of war.

[Crystal] Yeah, I think it did.

[Frank] I should say that it's like -- it has zero to do with policy and strategy and what each side was fighting for. It's literally an emotional and impressionistic and visceral telling of what it's like literally to be on the front line, on the ground with other soldiers. So it made me think about a lot of things actually, like you just said. It's a way to look at people. And I'm always interested in looking at what is human nature? What is something we learn from society? I mean, I could kick it off. Like, just first thought was I thought about hierarchy and what that means, like the characters. There's so many ways to approach this. Well, we should say the guy, the man, the young man, 18, speaking to is named Paul. And he talks about his experiences and his soldier colleagues -- comrades. So that's the sort of basic outline and just the experiences on the front line. So hierarchy that they make a lot of because one, a lot of different professions are in the war. So your sergeant could be your ex post man. Like, the guy who delivered your mail is now the sergeant. Or conversely, the lawyer in your town is now a grunt with you. Or, I mean -- and that collapses the hierarchy that you knew before. And then on the other side of hierarchy, there is, in this book, a distinct commentary on the pomp and circumstance of hierarchy that is so useless. Like, he talks a lot about the dress parades that they're forced to do. Like, get all dressed up with shiny buttons and walk down the street or do drills or things like that. And it's -- he said -- Paul, the narrator, via Erich Maria Remarque, says, it was almost as horrible as being on the front line. Like, he hated it, this sort of pump that didn't mean anything. But yet, he also acknowledges the necessity of hierarchy, someone to listen to, someone to be told what to do, the sort of need. And actually, he says at one point for basic training that the intense abuse they get and the humiliations and sort of cruelty even is horrible but in some ways necessary because he says without that terrible experience, it would never have prepared them for the horror of the frontline. In a way, it's like breaking a human being down, demoralizing them to the point where they're just pure instinct. And that's what they want these young 18-year-old's to be is pure instinct, animal instinct, to fight. Anyway. Somehow, I could go on and on. What a shock. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[Crystal] But I love that idea of, like, what you're saying about how that hierarchy of, like, their regular life is flattened in that way. I remember, like, you know, towards the ends, so many people just, like, all of a sudden are dying so quickly and how when one of his -- I don't remember which one of his friends dies. And he's just through like, you know, what was the use of him being a mathematician, you know, what their previous lives were and those -- they're just soldiers, men who are just dying on the fields.

[Frank] Crystal, you just gave me goosebumps because one of the -- I have my little notes in a book. One of the predominant notes I took was that line -- let's see if I can find it -- where he dies, his comrade dies, 19 years old. And he said -- and he says, what good is it now that he was a great mathematician in school? And it kicked me off because I was like, okay, there's my beloved existential quandary again that I'm obsessed with, because then I wrote to myself, like, why anything? Like, if math was so important just a year or six months before now and now it's not because he's dead on a field, that begs the question, like, why anything? Has the war revealed the pointlessness of culture, of propriety, of rigor, of, like, all the societal standards that we follow? Or would it eventually have been revealed anyway, the silliness or arbitrariness of culture? Or, you know, is the realization of existential, you know, angst always there and it's just revealed in stark relief because of war? I mean, I love, in quotes, those questions. They're so poignant. They seem to be the core of human existence, at least for me.

[Crystal] That's something that -- like, there's so many really wonderful quotes in this. Like, I highlighted a bunch in my book. You know, when he oftentimes uses the we, right, when he's talking about we as in the second company, we as in his friends in the 19-year-old range or I think maybe 20 but no more than 20. But then, like, that kind of billows out. And he's talking about we like the whole generation of young men who have been so disillusioned by this war. I also think betrayed by an older generation, which is shown by his school master. What's his name?

[Frank] Kantorek.

[Crystal] Kantorek? Kantorek, who just threw, like, essentially, I would say propaganda, convinces them to join up, all of them to join up, especially one [inaudible] Behm who joined up before he would have been drafted, which was like three months later, and then dies.

[Frank] You're like so -- you're hitting my points because I remember him, too. He's not a character, obviously, that lasts very long. Yeah. But he stuck out to me because Behm is this, as he's described in the book, pudgy kid who doesn't really want to do it. But the teachers -- this is in high school, basically. The last year, he was saying, you have to join, you have to join. Like you just said, propaganda. And that image of Behm gets blinded by shellfire and is wandering on the front, not knowing which -- makes me want to -- not knowing which direction he's going in. And then he gets killed.

[Crystal] Well, I think those deaths in the beginning -- like, that one is a really early kind of reveal of the depth. And then the second one is Kemmerich, who was another one of his friends, who I think his like gets amputated or his foot gets amputated. And it's kind of a prolonged process where he dies. And then there's another friend, Mueller, who, like, wants his boots. And the boots kind of get passed around. But it was interesting to read about those deaths because so much time was spent on it. It clearly has such an effect. And then, like, as the narrative progresses, it's just, like, one right after the other over and over and over again. Like, they're just falling like dominoes and feeling like you get to the point where you're almost desensitized to it. Because so many -- there's so much death in this book. Yeah.

[Frank] Yes. And the concept of death and what it is is a huge part of the book. He thinks about it all the time. I mean, like you had said before about the generations, like he said. He says the older generation in war can go back to a life they'd already started. He said we'd never started our lives. But when you said about Kemmerich, or Kemmerich whose boot -- his leg was amputated, and he dies. And they all covered his boots. But Mueller is the one that just says outright, like, I want them. Like, I'm going to wait. He's literally waiting for him to die to take -- his comrade, waiting to take the boots. And the quote is "Only the -- in war, only the facts are real and important to us. Other considerations are artificial." In a way, I took that to mean to pretend even though he is sad and feels for his comrade, to even indulge in it is pointless. Like, don't even bother going there emotionally. Just focus on what you need to survive. And much is made of their footwear that -- and how necessary it is. Like, those boots were, like, not just vanity. They weren't vanity at all. They were necessary to survive. And Mueller -- and you don't blame him.

[Crystal] No, you don't.

[Frank] You just -- and then he dies. And they pass on to the next one.

[Crystal] Yep, I think Paul gets them. And then he's like, you know, I'm going to -- after me, it's going to go to this person. I've already decided.

[Frank] He says to Jaden, I think, you'll get them next. Like, interestingly saying he's going to die. But yes, that sense of what real facts are, interestingly, and what is artificial, which is sort of what I was alluding to with the hierarchy, like artificiality. I mean, talk about facts versus real. Like, he says at another point about the Russians, like, who they're fighting against. He said, with one command, the Russians are enemy. With another single command, they would be our friends. You know, like the arbitrariness of --

[Crystal] Didn't that -- yeah, didn't that kind of happen with -- I'm terrible at history. But, like, it seemed like at the very beginning, it was Germany, Austria, Hungary and Italy, the three of them. And then Italy, because of maybe their, like, relations with Austria, Hungary, like, moved over to the other side, you know. So I mean, I think that's true.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, politics and details like that sometimes, actually directly related to what I just said, sometimes make me glaze over because I can't keep it straight. I know some people are news fanatics and history fanatics, of course. And history is fascinating, but in the way who's on what side, who does what seems almost less important than the human element to me, usually, because it seems just like -- whenever I think like, well, wait. Why did they do this battle? And then you really read into it. And usually, it's a reason that seems so mundane for such a cataclysmic event like, you know, the president of one country insulted the president of the -- or something like that. I mean, they -- and this book talks about that. You're going to say something. Go.

[Crystal] Oh, no. I was just going to agree with that, like, in terms of this is not a book that spends a lot of time, as you said really early, on politics. Like, I think it's fairly apolitical. I think that's also why it lasts so well because anybody can kind of see themselves in that situation. Like, this is not like a pro Germany propaganda type book. And also, to your point about, like, what's the point of all of this war? Like, they talk about that, like how they fight and so many people die. Like, his second company, I think it started out with, like, 150. Then it's at the very start of the book, they've gone from 150 down to 80. And they're fighting over the ration. Like, they want all the food, the 150 worth of rations for the 80 people. And then halfway through, they're down to, like, 32. And by the end, who knows? Right? But they do --

[Frank] [inaudible] seven. He says he's one of seven from 150.

[Crystal] And then one of the battles, it's sort of, like, they fought. So many people died for, like 100 yards of land or something, something really ridiculous, right? And that question of, like, was it worth it?

[Frank] Yeah. Good point about this book. Like we said, it doesn't take up policy and who's on what side and what they believe in. It's just literally what happens on the front line between 18-year-old's fighting each other. I mean, Paul at one point says, like, you know, why would I want to kill an Englishman? I've never met an Englishman until -- I've never even seen one until now. And he says I can assume that why would an Englishman want to kill me, a German? Because they -- why would we? Because we're told to, I guess, you know, that sort of division. But what was it? Oh, the German aspect. Like, you know, in history, the German element. My father was from Germany. My parent -- his parents immigrated over from Germany in the '20s. But there's certain things that I was reading that -- this is weird. He talks about two things. The doctors in the dressing rooms, which are like the hospital rooms, they're called. At one point, one doctor -- it's terrible -- but, like, is scraping Paul's wound. Just because he is annoyed with Paul, it says he's raking the wound just to get a rise out of him. And then at another point, he talks about a surgeon who eagerly awaits injured soldiers so he can experiment on them, like one of them with the leg issue. He --

[Crystal] Flat feet.

[Frank] -- something on their legs and uses the flat feet as an excuse. And then I was like, well, that's just Germans. You know, like, my -- it was so horrible that when I was like, wow, this is saying something about how we all behave in war. And then I was like, wait a minute. It's not all of us. It's just Germans because of the, of course, the horrible World War II. But is it? You know, it made me -- it talks about -- talk about bias or, like, what we believe, like, who's bad, who's good, because I was -- I had a hard time thinking could have American surgeons done that? Could they possibly -- could they -- could they have? Of course, they could. But it certainly made it so easy to say, oh, it's just the Germans because from what we know of the horrors of World War II, especially. Like, oh, of course, that's in them. But then don't be so sure, Frank. I'm so biased about that because, like, God knows what American -- I mean, had American surgeons had captured or English surgeons had captured Germans, I don't know.

[Crystal] I mean, I do think it does speak to the idea that war brings out the worst in humanity too, sometimes. Right? I also find that surgeon example really interesting because that surgeon was doing those experiments on people with flat feet. And there were two soldiers that came in with flat feet. And they were warning them to like, no, don't submit to this. But ultimately, they did because they were like, I rather have my foot mutilated and be here in this kind of hospital area than going back on the field because I'd rather be alive and not be able to walk than to die like that, you know. That really kind of how horrible it was.

[Frank] How it changes your perspective. Yeah. I mean, I should say just about the German thing, and I hope it's not coming off wrong. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't go on. But like, I remember -- I think I've mentioned this before, too, because I'm sort of obsessed with it. Like, my father obviously knew German. And his parents were German and emigrated the '20s. But he would never ever, ever teach us, like kids, his kids, like, he just wouldn't. It was -- and I sensed it was a sense of like, one, you're American, you know, talk English. On the other hand, I wonder if there was just a hereditary shame. I don't know. You know, what I mean, like German [inaudible].

[Crystal] Well, for the first part of that kind of issue of wanting your child to assimilate into a culture, like, that's something within, you know, my culture as a Chinese person, as Chinese immigrants is a huge thing, because people want you to sort of like fit in. So it was like you speak English. You know, you're not really speaking Chinese because they want you to succeed. And sometimes, that kind of success is also asking you to suppress your identity in a way that is, you know, can be harmful, but also very understandable. Yeah.

[Frank] Absolutely. Like, during World War II, like, there had to have been anti German sentiment. Like, my father's parents were German. And he was, like, a tween in the World War II. And then, you know, Japanese, we know all about that. Like, the internment camps and things like that. Anyway, that's World War II. But that's -- it is interesting. And it does -- it does bring up, like I said, about the Russians. Like in one command, we could be friends, we're friends with them. And another command, we're enemies. It's sort of like this nationality division that can be quite arbitrary. But who's your ally? Who's not? And that's made very clear in the book because, I mean, the fighting scenes in this book alone, unbelievable. I mean -- and it leads to another point about personality. And I talk about that a lot too, about, like, our personality genetically or and, you know, manipulated by culture, like all the combination of things that make us who we are. These kids on the front line sometimes are left to their own devices completely. Like, there's that scene where Paul is -- they're under attack. There's gas. I mean, it makes it very clear. When you think of war, you think of, like, you know, you're behind a trench. And you've got a gun. And it's about shootouts. But no, there's this noxious gas that can kill you. There's shrapnel, which seems horrifying. Splinters, I think, they call it in this. It's -- death could come from any direction. And that is made very clear about how they both rely on their instincts, that indefinable soldier something that sometimes makes you hit the ground before you even hear a bomb coming. But there's that scene where he's on the ground, on the earth, his ear to the ground to listen for bombs, to listen for approach. And he's sort of, like, you know, what's the word? Like, not -- he's sort of on the ground prone, but, like, manipulating himself through the dirt to move, like, on his elbows. And he loses his way. And he doesn't know which way to go, like, literally on the ground, like slithering -- I can't think of a better word -- to find which way to go back to his own trench. He could be going towards the closer to the front and then across the line to the other side. Or he could go back to his own. And he literally had -- he's on his own in the middle of this battle. You know, like, it's like, here, 18-year-old. You'll get six weeks of training. Deal with it. I mean, there's another horrible scene where -- and this is about the cruelty again, which I wonder about. I don't mean to keep bringing it back to that but obviously is a part of the book where a whole bunch of new recruits -- the other side, obviously, the Allies, the English has so many, it seems from the German perspective, so many new recruits. Like, they're all, like, from America. And they're coming and coming and coming in. And they're way outnumbered. He says Germany has better skills, but they're way, way, way outnumbered by the new recruits. And at one point, the German side sends a whole bunch of their new recruits into battle where they're barely training them. And he says -- Paul says in the book. They had no idea what taking cover meant. They didn't even know. They're just pushed onto the front line and managed that way.

[Crystal] Yeah. There is a scene where -- I mean, there's a couple times where gas was used and one scene where he finds people who have died from gas because they didn't realize that the gas will stay in the lower area. So when they saw that people had taken off their gas masks, they took their eyes off. And then their lungs were burned by the gas.

[Frank] Right. They just followed, right?

[Crystal] And I also found out to be really interesting, too, because here, again, are these like 19/20-year-old's. And they're teaching a lot of these new recruits. And they have, like, so much information to give. But, like, they had to learn in such horrible ways, like, the way they talked about hearing the bombs. Like, by the noises, you could tell what kind of bombs are coming, like, if it's a daisy cutter, if it's a mortar shell. And I'm just, like, if I was there -- I'm terrible at hearing things. Like, I would not -- I'd be gone.

[Frank] Right? Like, your skills come into play, like what you have, what you don't. Like, we talked about Behm and him wandering around and getting killed. And, you know, Paul, seems to make it through. There is -- what did I write? I think I've definitely alluded to this before, about like his sort of acknowledgment, that instinct and chance are like the only things they really have. And he says it sort of derogatorily, but I don't take it that way, really, because he says when we get to the frontline, we literally transform to human animals. I mean, animals, I'd say, period. And I don't mean that pejoratively. I mean, what we would say an animalistic reaction of instinct. And I guess as humans, we can acknowledge that chance exists. I don't know if animals can, maybe, versus the societal expectation and what it means to be a citizen. It's like you've lost that completely about what your class is, like, what your position in society is. And you're just relying on your human instinct. And that's personality. It could be anywhere on the class spectrum about survival.

[Crystal] I mean, I think that animal metaphor is also there with the horses, like, after one battle. And it's tough. You know, like you -- I personally get a little desensitized when it comes to a lot of the human descriptions. But with the horses, because you feel like they're, you know, very innocent. They didn't sign up for this. But in many ways, these men didn't, you know. Like, they didn't know what they were getting into. And so there are these descriptions of these horses who are like horribly injured, screaming in pain and then the soldiers having to kind of put them out of their misery. And they do that to other soldiers as well who are in painful death situations. Yeah.

[Frank] He says -- he says the vilest -- I wrote that quote down -- the vilest base -- it's the vilest baseness to use horses and war. And it is true. Like, much is made of that hellish surreal landscape of the horses running around injured, terrified. And it does come to a point, like you said, where another soldier says to Paul, like, you know, I don't know -- I don't know if I'm going to make it. And Paul basically says, do you want me to kill you, basically? And the other soldiers says yes. But he doesn't do it. But it begs the question of, like, would you -- I mean, when I was reading it, I was thinking, just do it. Just -- of course, do it. And it seems so obvious when you have a feeling. But then I thought, that's not necessarily what everyone would feel. Some people would be you must survive at all costs. And Lord knows, chance comes in. And the guy gets picked up by one of the stretcher bearers who have their job in the war and taken and sent home and survives. And yet, I would have been like -- I say that. I don't know. I mean, I'm just putting that out. I remember thinking in that heat of the moment, I was like, well, of course, put him out of suffering. I mean, the word is used to end his suffering. It would just seem so horrible to witness suffering, which Paul does a lot. But someone else wouldn't necessarily contemplate it that way. Right? I don't know. That's a tough one. That's such a tough moral question. And they had to make quick decisions all the time. I mean, Paul encounters a French soldier, which is their enemy. And he -- I think it's at the end of that scene where he's crawling -- that's the word -- on the ground with his gun and not -- and lost. And he encounters a French soldier. And he realizes I have to kill him quickly. And he stabs him. And the soldier takes a long time, like more than a day to actually die. And they're in the trench together. And Paul has a lot of time to ruminate over what he's done and what it means to have done what he did and how he's just a person, the French soldier. And he, after he's dead, takes his wallet. And he's still in the trench for a while because he's trapped and looks at the pictures that he had in there and the letters from his own family.

[Crystal] I mean, and it seemed like, too, I mean, it's -- you know, I don't know how intentional it was for him to kill that person because it seemed like he acted instinctively and maybe, like, stabbed out and then killed this person and then tried to sue that French soldier who was in the midst of dying and having to be in -- I was thinking it was like a trench area with him and watching him die. Like, how difficult that was for him. And then him -- when he went and finally found his way back to his, I don't know, his location. I'm terrible at these war terminology. And feeling so shaken by the experience and his friends pointing out, like, the other soldiers who were sniping people and just being like this is what it is. This is our job. This is what we're doing. And him having to kind of reconcile that. It's pretty upsetting.

[Frank] Yeah. And either you think the more we talk and the more I get -- we talk about, I realized, like, why read this book? Like, why write it? Yeah. Go.

[Crystal] Well, I will say we haven't talked about such really bleak things. In this, there are moments of humor, which is kind of interesting. But I think really kind of speaks to the humanity of, again, these really young boys who are sometimes doing kind of silly things, like when they're at that village and they're cooking and there's, like, shells falling around. And Paul is like, you know, I got to make these pancakes. Like, I got to have these pancakes. And it's like they're running over with the food. And they have a feast. And then, of course, they have, like, horrible diarrhea and stuff. But there are funny moments in this. And I think that kind of intercuts the bleakness. So it doesn't feel so dragging and heavy, you know.

[Frank] Well, it shows, like, also the pleasures to be had. I mean, well, you did mention diarrhea. So maybe that opened the door for me because one of the earliest scenes I thought -- I don't know how to describe this.

[Crystal] Such a visual.

[Frank] Yeah, it's such a great visual because I love it. Not the diarrhea part, but, like, the, I guess, the human -- basic human nature in which we all live every day. We just don't talk about it. And there's the society. He talks about, of course, the -- about basically going to the latrine and doing what you do there. And he said at first everyone is embarrassed, and you want to go on your own. And then he said -- which I love this image. He said when you're well into the war, they're all sitting on their own pots, talking, playing cards --

[Crystal] Side by side. Yeah.

[Frank] -- side by side, reading the newspaper, joking around. And they're just like, here we are. And I -- there is a quote with another great character, Kaczynski, who's like the senior member of their second platoon. Oh, I just forgot what I was going to say. Oh, Kaczynski says, war -- where is it? War can be reduced to stomachs and intestines. Here, it says -- I wrote in my notes. Pooping is a thing of pleasure, an activity restored to innocence and beauty, meaning nature. It's natural. It says -- he said, the language -- this is what Kaczynski says. The language of war is the language of the stomach and intestines. And I love how it brings -- which is really sort of true for all of us at all times. Like, really. We have to be honest. I have to pee now, actually.

[Crystal] But, you know, like, when even -- I mean, there is that scene where he goes home on leave for a week or 14 days or something like that. And he sees his mom who is ill with cancer. And I think also, like, Remarques mother also passed away. And she, like, makes that jam for him. And he takes it back with him. And it's like -- also kind of feels like it relates to the stomach and intestines because there's this connection to home like through foods. And the food that she made for him and how he uses that and he shares it with his comrades. Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah. There's so much, so much because he -- one of the scenes I loved most was when he goes back home. And you look forward to going back home so badly, obviously. And then when he gets there, the predominant feeling is he can't really relax because he doesn't -- the juxtaposition of what he's been through versus his childhood books and room and parents is almost too hard to bear. Like -- and also, he feels alien from it. He doesn't feel like he's part of that anymore. It's not nice, but his father essentially wants to take him around to the pub and have -- show him off and basically have, like, here's my soldier son. There's even a scene, I think, with a red cross nurse who's -- Paul characterizes it as being so thrilled to be able to help an actual soldier like almost for her own status than anything else. And he has that alienation. And that's why -- which is so beautiful. The comradeship between the young 18-year-old's is so strong. And he says it's like -- he said more than fear, more than mother, his comrades meant everything. I mean, that's -- I've read about that, obviously, since that men who've been to war, like when they come back, like they seek out their comrades because it's almost the only people who can understand what they've been through. And people who love the most and they love, you know, are harder sometimes to be with because they can't know. And then you -- when you read this book, you see the terrible things we say to soldiers, especially at that age, like, it seems so nice to say, but, like, when the mother says -- I think the mother says something like it's all right. You know, you're back and I'm glad or something like that. And he's just like, what do you mean it's all right to himself. She's just trying to be comforting and welcoming. But some things we say to people that we just can't even scratch their experience. But what do you say, you know? What do you say? Just maybe be quiet and hug them.

[Crystal] Yeah, he talks about that, one of the quotes, which was after his father wanted him to talk about a lot of things. And he didn't want to. He says that he found it stupid and distressing. He didn't want to, like, talk with such things. And he writes, I would -- I realize he does not know what a man -- that a man cannot talk of such things. I would do it willingly. But it is too dangerous for me to put these things into words. I'm afraid they might then become gigantic and I be no longer able to master them. What would become of us of everything that happens out there were quite clear to us? And, you know, thinking about his, like, experience at home, how, deeply he seems to repress all of those things and not wanting to name them so that they don't take shape. And maybe that is why he is able to connect with these other men because it's, like, you don't have to name it because you've all lived it. And how horrifying that must be too.

[Frank] Crystal, like, I think we are merging into one today because that was one of my predominant quotes, too. And that's what I was saying -- we deviated, but when I said why read a book like this or even why write it. And you just hit on that quote that I wanted to refer to, which is words put into language, obviously, the most horrible experience. I think Erich Remarque wanted to memorialize and write about what it was like. He was obsessed with it and rightly so. But on the other hand, words also give image to things that are just too horrible to contemplate. Like, on one hand, like you just -- the quote you said, like to give words to what actually was happening was so terrifying to Paul. But then Remarque is actually giving words to what actually happened. And he went through that terror to convey this story. He just had to. He clearly was affected lifelong, obviously, by this experience, Erich Maria Remarque. I think he took the name, middle name, Maria, from his mother, actually.

[Crystal] Yeah, I think so.

[Frank] Yeah. Oh, my Lord --

[Crystal] Which is really beautiful, too.

[Frank] Yeah. I'm so glad you were eager to read and reread it again. I'm glad I did. It's a book I never picked up, never was assigned. And I would have been like, oh, a war book. It's for boys. Now it just seems like it's for humans.

[Crystal] And I -- when I read this, I think it was like 10 years ago or so. It still stands up, you know. Like that was one thing in the last episode I was kind of worried about is can it stand the test of my personal time period? And it does. I'm like I still think it's a great book. And really, I'm glad to have regretted.

[Frank] I like revisiting these classics. I know I've said this before, but, like, you know, maybe you should pick the next book we read, if we still pick from the list. It's something with more [inaudible].

[Crystal] I didn't mean to do my evil laugh when you said that. I got too excited.

[Frank] Well, I mean, our listeners know what they're getting. They're know they're going to get musical comedy but with existential angst. I mean, that's why, like, some people have written to me recommending books. And they're all like very sort of, like, poignant why are we alive, how do I get through the day books. And I'm like, thank you. And then I burst into song, but not in this episode, apparently. Oh, Crystal, what a pleasure. I guess -- wow. We've been talking for a while. Thanks for enduring with us out there. Do you have any -- you look like you're looking at your notes. Do you have a quote or comment that you want to make again?

[Crystal] I mean, there's so many good quotes in this. So I won't even go into this. I will say if people are looking for things that are similar to this topic -- I do remember a while ago really liking that Band of Brothers miniseries. I know that's for World War II. But that and The Pacific, I feel like those visually capture a lot of the horrors, if you're up for that, because sometimes, it's really hard to kind of visualize some of the things, although he is very descriptive in this book. So that would be a watch alike. And I was going to say the only other book, because I was thinking about this too that I've read that also deals with World War I is -- have you ever read the Good Soldier Svejk?

[Frank] No. The Svejk is the author, or is that the title?

[Crystal] No, it's by -- that's the title. And the author is Jaroslav Hasek. He's a Czechoslovakia -- from Czechoslovakia. Yeah. It's kind of like a comedic, dark comedy satire. It's really interesting. But those are the only two World War I books I've ever read.

[Frank] Look at you, though, being a good librarian. I mean, we do say -- or I do. I say every beginning, it's like books, culture and what to read next and also what to watch next. Thank you for bringing something in from the culture because we're thirsty for culture around here. And I don't seem to bring it. So thank you, dear. What was I going to say? Nothing. Was I? So thank you, everybody. So next time, we're going to read on our own.

[Crystal] Yes. I turned my camera off.

[Frank] Why? What are you doing? Oh.

[Crystal] Have you forgotten, Frank?

[Frank] She's ASMRing me. Wait. Do that again.

[Crystal] I'm so mad because I cut my nails. And I forgot.

[Frank] Oh. I thought it was nails. But you know what I thought it was? Nails on your teeth. Nails on some surface. Cup. Oh, my God.

[Crystal] Are you hearing this?

[Frank] That's an annoying sound. It sounds a little bit like -- what are those musical instruments? Like, they have ridges and you hit like --

[Crystal] Oh. The [inaudible] ridges.

[Frank] Right. Right. It sounds like it. What's that musical instrument? You take the stick, and you rub it over the ridges.

[Crystal] Xylophone?

[Frank] No. Oh, my God. I had sleep last night. But yet my brain doesn't work like --

[Crystal] Okay. Take a guess. Oh, I should whisper. Take a guess. Sorry. I keep forgetting to whisper.

[Frank] What you're actually rubbing on?

[Crystal] No. Tapping. I'm not rubbing on anything. I'm tapping.

[Frank] But you said it has ridges.

[Crystal] It does have ridges.

[Frank] What is that instrument? All right. Do it one more time.

[Crystal] Okay. There's many parts to this. Can you hear this?

[Frank] Is it --

[Crystal] Are you trying to Google this? I hear you taping.

[Frank] I'm actually googling that instrument. Like a shaker? I don't know. Oh, here. All right. I think it's a -- it's like a jar. Like a jar.

[Crystal] Close.

[Frank] Because where the top would screw on would be where the ridges are. And then it sounds glass. A spool? I don't know.

[Crystal] I feel like you're not going to guess this.

[Frank] Actually, I'm looking at it. But it's like the instrument I'm trying to think of is a scraper. Oh, I don't know.

[Crystal] I think my guess as a xylophone was better than the scraper.

[Frank] All right. I don't know. What? What is it? Oh, my God. How would I know that? All right.

[Crystal] I just turned on the camera. It's a cactus and a terracotta part -- cart. That was the star.

[Frank] That's interesting. So in your experience, if you have, I guess you must, I guess certain people, we talked about skills before about, like, hearing and things like that if -- she's playing with the cactus.

[Crystal] Cactus would spin out wood stock for, like, three years. It's doing all right.

[Frank] But can one actually -- I think I'm answering my own question. One technically could figure out that's terracotta. Like, in other words, your nails on the surface, some people would be able to say what the surface is made of. Correct? Yes. I'm sure somebody could. It sounded like glass to me, but I'm not that good. That good.

[Crystal] Could you hear the little -- this is a zebra cactus or zebra succulents. Did you hear the little leaves? I think that was the part that you didn't like, the leaves brushing against the mic.

[Frank] Yes. That was that scrapey thing which I didn't like. Wow, you really -- see now, Crystal put her camera back on so I can see what she's actually doing in ASMR activity. It looks crazy. But it's -- well, this -- again --

[Crystal] We all have to have our hobbies. This is my hobby. Tormenting Frank.

[Frank] Does it suit you, I guess? Tormenting me.

[Crystal] Yeah, I think the tormenting of Frank is the --

[Frank] More important than -- oh, boy.

[Crystal] Winding up Frank is what relaxes me.

[Frank] Now I'm anxious. I'm not going to sing. I'm not going to sing because we've been here too long. And I hear the clock ringing in the Tower of Jefferson Market. It's now time to leave. Goodbye, Crystal. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Goodbye.

[Crystal] Goodbye.

[Frank] No, I can't be so harsh, even though I feel edgy, more edgy about the ASMR than I did talking about war, oddly. Thank you, everybody. And we'll see you next time. Say goodbye, Crystal.

[Crystal] Oh, goodbye.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast or Google Play or send us an email ai podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your host Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.

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