Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Spring is almost here! Can you feel it? This week Rhonda and Frank walked their own reading paths and then shared their impressions with each other. Coincidentally, they both picked books published in 1946 and which largely take place in the 1940s. Rhonda picked up a classic novel, The Street by Ann Petry, and Frank read Man's Search for Meaning—part memoir, part psychotherapy.

 The Street by Ann Petry

The Street tells the poignant, often heartbreaking story of Lutie Johnson, a young black woman, and her spirited struggle to raise her son amid the violence, poverty, and racial dissonance of Harlem in the late 1940s. Originally published in 1946 and hailed by critics as a masterwork, The Street was Ann Petry's first novel, a beloved bestseller with more than a million copies in print. Its haunting tale still resonates today.

Man's Search For Meaningby Viktor Frankl

Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl's memoir has riveted generations of readers with its descriptions of life in Nazi death camps and its lessons for spiritual survival. Between 1942 and 1945 Frankl labored in four different camps, including Auschwitz, while his parents, brother, and pregnant wife perished. Based on his own experience and the experiences of others he treated later in his practice, Frankl argues that we cannot avoid suffering but we can choose how to cope with it, find meaning in it, and move forward with renewed purpose. Frankl's theory-known as logotherapy, from the Greek word logos ("meaning") holds that our primary drive in life is not pleasure, as Freud maintained, but the discovery and pursuit of what we personally find meaningful.

Don't forget to read along with us! Next week our hosts will be discussing:

Autobiography of Red by Anne Carson

Geryon, a young boy who is also a winged red monster, reveals the volcanic terrain of his fragile, tormented soul in an autobiography he begins at the age of five. As he grows older, Geryon escapes his abusive brother and affectionate but ineffectual mother, finding solace behind the lens of his camera and in the arms of a young man named Herakles, a cavalier drifter who leaves him at the peak of infatuation. When Herakles reappears years later, Geryon confronts again the pain of his desire and embarks on a journey that will unleash his creative imagination to its fullest extent. By turns whimsical and haunting, erudite and accessible, richly layered and deceptively simple, Autobiography of Red is a profoundly moving portrait of an artist coming to terms with the fantastic accident of who he is.

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Five, six, seven, eight, welcome to The Librarian Is In. It's in. Welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, sometimes culture and always what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda. That was excellent, Frank, and that was for all the people who love Frank singing. I think you should -- I hope they recorded that and they should play that at the beginning of every episode.

[Frank] It's past tense, all the people who used to love my singing.

[Rhonda] Everyone loves your singing, Frank.

[Frank] Oh, we can remix it [sound effect].

[Rhonda] Oh yeah. I like that.

[Frank] The Librarian Is In, the remix.

[Rhonda] Yeah. It sounds like the entrance to like -- the opening to like a old radio show.

[Frank] I love your analysis, I do. Because everything I do is sort of a throwback.

[Rhonda] I liked it.

[Frank] Oh, I can't -- you know, I can't sing on tune but somehow when I'm forced to -- well, I don't know if I sung in tune but --

[Rhonda] You did better than I could do. I could not write an impromptu opening jingle and sound that good, Frank so --

[Frank] You can't riff, baby, you can't riff?

[Rhonda] Not like that.

[Frank] I don't know. Yes, you can.

[Rhonda] I don't have the talent.

[Frank] You need to be unlocked. The secret talents of Rhonda need to be unlocked. Well, that was fun. It does give release, I suppose.

[Rhonda] Good. I feel like everyone needs that right now because it's like a year into this whole whatever we're in.

[Frank] Yeah, literally this -- yeah, March 13th is when the library closed.

[Rhonda] Oh my, gosh.

[Frank] I don't know. Yeah. It is -- yeah. I mean, we're all having different reactions, different experiences in different parts of the country. Different states have different laws and rules and --

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And then I know for me I've been very, very much home and going part time to another library than my own. I know you're in the office sometimes.

[Rhonda] Yes. Sometimes. Sometimes yes, so -- but the same. Like most of my time I am in the apartment and then sometimes I'm in the office. But still, pretty much in that quarantine --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- state, you know. I haven't been brave enough to go out and do anything yet so --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Maybe in the summer when the weather gets warmer and people are allowed to go back outside again, I don't know.

[Frank] I'm eager to plunge into a body of water.

[Rhonda] Ooh, that sounds so nice.

[Frank] That's what I want to do. I want to swim. I want to be in the ocean. I want to be free. I want to be free, free to be swimming.

[Rhonda] That was a song by The Monkees. Do you remember that song, I Wanna Be Free?

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] You don't? OK. I thought you would know it, Frank.

[Frank] I know, I'm sorry. I used to watch The Monkees as a kid.

[Rhonda] So did I.

[Frank] Not first run. I'm not that old, dear.

[Rhonda] No. Me either.

[Frank] Just syndicated.

[Rhonda] Yes, exactly, syndicated. I watched some reruns, although you want to know a funny story? I actually saw them in concert.

[Frank] Later, I'm sure.

[Rhonda] Oh, yeah. They were definitely up there when I -- it was like in Atlantic City. It was really fun but they were like senior citizens, I have to say, when I saw them but they still put on a pretty fun show.

[Frank] So you saw it because you went to gamble?

[Rhonda] Well, I was too young. I went with my friends.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] And they were like playing at a hotel. It was fun. It was a lot of fun.

[Frank] You went to Atlantic City. There's a story there but I won't dig.

[Rhonda] It's really not that interesting.

[Frank] All right. Well, let everyone think it is because I certainly do.

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] You went underage with your friends to Atlantic City and saw The Monkees. Let's start there.

[Rhonda] OK. Actually, let's change the subject. Let's go to books instead.

[Frank] Oh, I'm getting close to the core of Rhonda. OK, it's fine. I respect it. Yes, we are here for books and we have read books, I'm assuming. I read crazy. I read crazily. I mean, I should chill on how I always say I'm disorganized and unready and certainly people who have listened have pointed that out. But I read a lot and I couldn't decide what to discuss or what I wanted to present. I'm always feeling like I want to present a perfect little presentation that will give people incredible knowledge and insight and walk away thinking, "Wow. That was amazing." And I always feel like I'm falling short but that's my problem, my emotional issues that I will deal with on my own. Not to burden you or anyone else even though I just said it. So I read a lot, but what about you?

[Rhonda] I did not read a lot but I read something.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So yeah, shall we jump in?

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, I mentioned parenthetically I read, but I'm not going to discuss it, Brooklyn by Colm Tóibín.

[Rhonda] Oh, OK.

[Frank] Which I loved.

[Rhonda] Oh, nice.

[Frank] Basically about an immigrant experience in the 1950s and it was also made into a beautiful movie with Saoirse Ronan by the same name, Brooklyn, and I highly recommend it. I'm not getting into it here but it's a goodie. I'm glad I read him because I think he's a wonderful writer but what -- you launch.

[Rhonda] Oh, OK.

[Frank] If you want to, if you want to.

[Rhonda] So you know, this -- you know, we're coming out of Black History Month and we're also kind of getting into that centennial of the Harlem Renaissance. So Harlem was kind of on my mind, so I decided to read a book that I have always wanted to read but never really got around to it. So I read The Street by Anne Petry.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] Yes, and --

[Frank] I got to say into directing as ever, I'm sort of on the same page with you in terms of what -- like I didn't want to discuss Brooklyn even though I thought it was wonderful. I want to go backwards. I want to -- I find myself being attracted to classics or older works.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I'm not sure why. I think I want to -- I think there's so many of them I haven't read. Like you just said, I want to go back to them.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I want to go to them for the first time and see what knowledge or insight I can learn. And I'm sort of on that page if you're sort of feeling that yourself because I, of course, know The Street.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] But I haven't read that myself so --

[Rhonda] Oh, OK. Yeah, so where to start? It was -- so I have to say that I loved it but it did leave me a little depressed, you know. So if you're kind of -- if you don't want a book that will -- if you're looking for a book to kind of raise your spirits, The Street is maybe not the one that you want to read right now because I know people, a lot of people are in the fragile state. But it's a classic, it's a masterpiece, and I've -- you know, Ann Petry is just one of those really, probably a writer that should have more acclaim than she does, although that's the case with a lot of black women writers. But you know, let me jump into it. So The Street by Ann Petry, this was written in 1946 and is set at the same time in 1946 in Harlem. And so the story is set mainly around this woman named Lutie Johnson. Lutie or Lutie, I'm not exactly sure how she pronounces it. It's L-U-T-I-E.

[Frank] Right.

[Frank] Lutie Johnson and that's how I'm going to say it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And she's a single mother and she has an eight-year-old son named Bub. So the story is really set and kind of focused on her, but what's really interesting is that we -- different chapters, we do get to see the story from the viewpoints of different characters and there's kind of a lot of characters. It's a pretty substantial book. It's about 440 pages.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] Well, it's pretty substantial but we could just see it from a lot of like different perspectives. And Lutie is leaving a really kind of bad situation and her back stories that she was married and her husband couldn't find work. And so she goes to Connecticut to be as like a live-in domestic worker with a white family. But when she comes back like her husband has had an affair and like living with another woman and all of this stuff. And she says, "You know what? I'm going to take my son and I'm leaving." And she's going to go to Harlem and she's going to start over. And she kind of starts out like really kind of hopeful with this idea of like the American dream. Like she and her son are going to get this apartment in Harlem and she's going to work hard and she's going to save her money. And they are just going to have this new life together.

[Frank] Well, it already sounds like, the first thing I thought, I know it's classic literature but like one of those amazing '80s miniseries.

[Rhonda] Really?

[Frank] Like usually in those days it would star like Jane Seymour, Valerie Bertinelli, a white actress and it would talk about like humble beginnings, going to make it in the world in the big city.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Going to leave the man behind and then find real love. I mean, I'm making it very soap opera-ish which is very powerful. But if they made as they should have made miniseries with black lead actresses then that would have been [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Then maybe this would have been it. Yeah.

[Frank] But I have a feeling it's going to take a darker turn. But anyway, go ahead.

[Rhonda] Absolutely, yes. And you know, I did not do the research to see if there was a film or any kind of other adaptation of this. But you know what? Maybe not. I don't think there is one, but I could be wrong. So she finds this little place on 116th street and she gets -- so you get introduced to the Superintendent Jones and it's kind of like Jones as he's showing her the apartment, from the first time he sees her, he just becomes obsessed like scarily stalker, obsessed with Lutie, right? And it's just like this kind of passionate, like sexual obsession that he has with her.

[Frank] Oh my god.

[Rhonda] And he's just kind of like this person who's trapped in this like state of loneliness and frustration and he lives in the basement of this apartment building with his girlfriend, Min, who's also a pretty tragic character, although she probably ends up the best out of the book. And then he lives with his dog and he treats them both horribly. But he becomes just really, you know, really obsessed with her. And he, of course, he like tries to make advances on her a little bit and she's just like, you know, not interested. And so he thinks, you know, the best thing to do was to try to get to her through her son. So when she goes to like try to find work and different things or when the son comes home before her from school, he like will stop by the apartment and do things with the son and is trying to kind of like get to her through the son. And then there's another character, her name is Mrs. Hedges, and she is interesting because she kind of knows everything that's happening like in the building, on the block and she's one of those women. You would see her like in the old TV shows. I'm especially thinking of that show 227.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Like you always see her in the window.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And she knows like everyone who's walking by. She's kind of in everyone's business. Well, she has a really kind of tragic back -- all of these people have very tragic --

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] -- back stories as well but she was like disfigured in a fire. She runs a brothel.

[Frank] In the building?

[Rhonda] She runs a brothel in the building, you asked?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Oh OK.

[Rhonda] In the building, she runs a brothel but you see her as like someone who every -- she tries to take care of other people, and I think that's also what she thinks she's doing with the brothel as well.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] It's kind of like taking in these women who kind of didn't have any other options and she also kinds of looks out for Lutie, like she goes and tells like the Super Jones like, "You have to leave her alone," right?

[Frank] Mm-hmm. OK.

[Rhonda] So, of course, you know, Lutie is obsessed with like this -- of making it and she goes to this nightclub just to kind of like give herself a night off and she meets this man named Boots. And Boots is like a band leader. You know, it's the 1940s. He has this band that plays in Harlem. And she's like, "I can sing," and he's like, "Well, why don't you come and sing with our band?" And so she's just so excited, she's like, "This is what I've been waiting for." This is what is going to kind of change things for her and her son.

[Frank] And that's the end of the first episode before his involvement --

[Rhonda] So that's the end of the first episode of the miniseries.

[Frank] -- when John Collins comes in and -- sorry.

[Rhonda] You're changing the story.

[Frank] It's sort of exciting. You're a good storyteller, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] Well, I appreciate that.

[Frank] I'm on the edge here. OK.

[Rhonda] You're on the edge. Yeah. And it takes a -- this is where it takes the turn, right?

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] So one night she comes home from singing and Jones just kind of -- the superintendent just kind of snaps and basically tries to kidnap her. So he grabs her and tries to drag her into this basement and Mrs. Hedges saves her and she says to, you know -- Mrs. Hedges has connections and she's like, "You listen, you mess with her again there's going to be consequences." And Jones is just like, "You know what?" He was bitter, he was mad and he's like, "I'm going to get even with Lutie for not letting me kidnap her basically, for not accepting my advances." And so a lot -- and then there's like at this point there's just like so many things that happened kind of like at this point in the story. Like Boots basically tells Lutie that he's not going to pay her for singing in the nightclub so she's kind of really devastated by that. And then Jones decides to like hatch this scheme to get her son into trouble as payback. So he tricks the son who's like really trusting and sweet into kind of doing some illegal things, although the son kind of has no idea that what he's doing is wrong.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Basically getting him to steal from people's mailboxes. And so the son gets arrested. I mean, he's a kid, and he's put in this children's home. And I'm trying to think if I should spoil this or not. I'm going to -- I'm not going to spoil it, actually.

[Frank] You know, I was thinking don't. I was --

[Rhonda] Yeah. I'm not going to spoil it.

[Frank] Like a great story, I want to know what happens and I think people should read it. I should read it. So yeah, I agree.

[Rhonda] It's good. It's actually -- and you know, I'm not going to spoil it but kind of what happens after the son is put in this home is just kind of a real breakdown of Lutie's kind of myth of the American dream, myth of kind of making it. She has to make some really hard decisions and it's definitely like, "Would I make that same decision if I were her?" You know, you try to put herself on her -- yourself in her shoes and try to think like, "You know, I wonder why she chose to do this exact thing," and is it because -- OK. I'm not going to go too far into it because again, I don't want to spoil it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But, you know, it's hard, you know, the way that this book turns out because you really hope Lutie can get herself out of the situation that she's in and you really are rooting for her. And you see that there are other people who are kind of looking out for her like Mrs. Hedges. But I will say that, Min, who is Jones' live-in girlfriend, she does kind of end up in a good space and I think she's kind of the only one in the story who does that because she kind of sees like, "Maybe I'm not in a healthy situation." She takes some definitive action which is a great thing. But, you know, this book again, like I said, is almost 500 pages.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] It's a real kind of just, you know -- it's a slow burn but it's good because you really get to know these characters. You really get to see them in-depth and kind of what builds up to the different choices that they make. And I was glad to read this book because the front -- you know, how on the cover of the book someone will make a little, like a comment? And one of the writers was Gloria Naylor who wrote The Women of Brewster Place.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And so, you know, if you have read Women of Brewster Place and liked it then I think you will definitely like The Street because The Street is written along kind of the same vein. I kind of see some of the same style or influences and you know, and it's just, you know, I would like to read more of Ann Petry's work. This is her first novel, 1946.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] So I'm definitely interested in reading more of her work and I will say, plug, that Ann Petry's archive is at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, most of it. There are some pieces at Yale. And that she was an actress at some point, a member of the American Negro Theater which was also started at the Schomburg Center. So there are some NYPL connections. But, you know, I definitely recommend it and I think at some point I do want to read it again. So I'm just going to leave it there, Frank.

[Frank] Well, that's a great recommendation if you want to read it again. And I just made a note to myself, this is I think going to be the next book discussion for Jefferson Market.

[Rhonda] Yes. I think that would be a good pick.

[Frank] I like when you said you get time to spend with the characters because you gave a great overview of it.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And I like the idea that you could get deeper into them. And a lot of what you said towards the end actually, of course, because I force segues, it resonates with me with the book I want to discuss with you, especially when you said American dream or you could say larger -- just the dreams we have as people.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] The self-conceptions we have or how we conceive ourselves in the world, and these are the actual world itself and how our conceptions relate -- our self-conceptions relate to the world, either they work well with it or they butt up against it. And then, most importantly, what you said is that as adults, our entire adult life is all about making decisions.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And those decisions can come out of what I just said about self-conception versus what the world is actually like or what the world is actually giving us which is, of course, difficult to define in itself. And whether you survive or not, like you said, Min, Min?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Without knowing what happens seems to survive where maybe Lutie doesn't.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And I read a book actually interestingly enough because I love my segues and I love my symbiosis. The book I read was first published in 1946 as well.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] Reissued many, many times as The Street has and it's nonfiction. I'm sure you've heard of it and I'm sure people listening have -- some people have read it. It's called Man's Search for Meaning.

[Rhonda] Mm, I have not read it.

[Frank] By Viktor Frankl. Have you heard of it?

[Rhonda] I have heard of it but not read it.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, it's also -- it's one of those books because of the title so many people through the generations since 1946 have been attracted to. It's like, "Oh great. I get to find out the meaning of life, finally."

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] So it -- and it's not as pleasant to begin with like your book because it -- the book is divided in two sections. And the first section is about Viktor Frankl, the author who was a Austrian neurologist and psychiatrist and philosopher in the '20s and '30s, Jewish. So I think you can see what's coming. He was taken to a concentration camp, Auschwitz among others, for about three years during the war, from '42 to '45 when liberation occurred. And the first part of Man's Search for Meaning is -- which could easily be called human being's search for meaning. But we know that in those days man was used as a catchall for all people.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So his -- the first part is his experience in the concentration camps and --

[Rhonda] Oh my, gosh.

[Frank] He based it explicit that his -- that what he's going to say is based on his experience and his point of view and an anecdotal and that he wanted to illustrate his themes by his own experience literally rather than giving an overarching history of what happened in concentration camps, what might have happened to a lot of other people. Of course, you know, history being what it is, there are some controversies now about exactly what his experience was but I won't get into that as that's a separate thing. And that's also something that should be researched thoroughly but --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] He was there and even in the most so-called not Auschwitz of camps, oh god, it cannot have been anywhere near a good experience and you know what I mean.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I don't mean to diminutize it at all. So you do get his perspective and there are a lot of tough scenes, you know, that I won't go into, some that stay with you, certainly. Because when you read it -- tell me if you feel the same when you read something like this, I mean, you're always thinking, first of all, you can't believe it ever happened and then you realize how often it has happened throughout history. Slavery, other versions of this kind of thing, and then you think how you would operate yourself, right? Do you?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Like how would you feel, like how would you behave? Because he does talk a lot about behavior, I mean, that's primarily what he talks about. I won't put you on the spot and say, how would you behave in a concentration camp?

[Rhonda] Yeah. Because I think --

[Frank] It's a terrible thing.

[Rhonda] I can be honest, you know, people really don't know until they're in certain situations, you know.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] What will happen, right? And I don't know, maybe he said the same thing. Like maybe he thought he was going to behave in one way. Oh, I guess he didn't think about it but maybe he was surprised himself while he [inaudible].

[Frank] I mean, yeah. I mean, he presents himself as -- because he was a doctor and a psychiatrist and interested in psychology before he ever came into the camps. He was already around 40 when he -- he was 40 when he was released, when liberation. So he had a life of study beforehand and I think it's clear that he brought that to bear on his experience and in some ways felt that was a leg up on the experience which could also be a controversial comment. But it's interesting what you say about you never know because I agree with you. I think whenever -- I find that a very fascinating concept and to go into an -- to find yourself in an extreme circumstance that you don't anticipate necessarily and then when you come out of it, hopefully, you can see how you reacted and analyze that and see what you are. I mean, this is self-aggrandizing but parenthetically, I was on the street in full view of the Twin Towers on 9/11 when they --

[Rhonda] Oh my god.

[Frank] -- went down. Yeah. Because in front -- you could see them from the library I work in still 20 years later. And I remember watching and I was also watching the people like, which I won't get into. It's just intense, the people on the street and their reactions. And then I heard someone next to me say, "Oh my god. It's coming down," meaning the tower, the first tower. And I turned away and looked the opposite direction so I never saw it. And I thought later, I liked it in quotes in that my thinking was that like, it seems too much like a mass grave. I couldn't look at it. In that one second, I made a decision and wasn't as conscious as most decisions can be but I could not see it out of respect and it's just some sense of, it can't be a spectacle for my viewing pleasure or my viewing, period.

[Rhonda] And that had to be kind of like a quick just split-second decision.

[Frank] Exactly. And so that, you know, plays into this experience because Viktor Frankl talks about his observations of other people and as a psychiatrist wants to sort of give them, you know, a process about how he observes other people. Like when you come into the camps, your first reaction is shock, is a sense of shock. You don't know where -- when you finally realize that you're in prison and you're there and the situation is terrible, you go into a sense of shock. And he says that after that you move into a sense of apathy, of giving up. And that's sort of a crucial time because ultimately, and the book is, called Man's Search for Meaning, a sense of hope is imperative to him that needs to remain to get through. And he talks about other things about, which is interesting about how even on arriving in the camp a lot of the inmate prisoners would change their identity even, almost like to their benefit. And that's another thing that it became a matter pretty quickly of just about survival of yourself and possibly those close to you if they were with you. Viktor Frankl's wife and parents and sister were in other camps. He did not know throughout the rest of the war, the three years he was in the camp what had happened to them. So some people obviously were separated. So he goes through these processes and how people are adjusting to it. Even quoting Dostoevsky at one point like, man can get used to anything and, you know, a reality that's even imposed on you becomes a reality that you then navigate with it, if you can't escape it. I mean, just that aspect of loss of freedom is obviously so incredibly deep and important. Just the idea of losing your freedom for reasons that don't make sense to you or don't morally mean anything to you, you know.

[Rhonda] You're right.

[Frank] So those stages I said, it was shock and apathy and he eventually discusses also the psychology of the liberated, if one is liberated, how does one navigate the world? And also in terms of immediate sense of freedom and almost indulging in primal instincts, like feeding a lot or sleeping a lot or wanting to recompensate for that. And in some instances he talks about men he was with that were out for blood and one guy --

[Rhonda] Mm.

[Frank] -- said to him when they were liberated, he says, "You know, I'm going to shed as much blood as I possibly can," and he was shocked, Viktor Frankl was shocked by that. And then after that wears off is a sense of, "Oh, nobody really cares." Like Viktor Frankl found out his whole family was dead and came back with nobody waiting for him and partly what got him through was the vision of his wife waiting for him. Even if he knew intellectually she might not be, it was something that made him get through. And so when he got home and people would say to him who hadn't been on the camps, "Oh yes, we had it tough too. It was the war and also, we did know really what was going on in there." And so that feeling of like, "I just went through a horrific situation and nobody seems to either care or their feelings are just as important as mine." And so for the concentration camp victim it's like what was it all for? And so there's that sense of meaninglessness that some people never recover from as you can imagine. And so back to the title, Man's Search for Meaning, he believes that man's will to meaning is the most motivating force in a human being's life as opposed to the will to pleasure that Freud talked about.

[Rhonda] Mm.

[Frank] Or the will to power and resources, that those were, of course, implicit in the human being psyche but they weren't the most important thing that we must have meaning in our lives in order to survive. We must find some meaning in our lives. So in the second part of the book, the last part, there's two sections. Frankl goes into his theory of what he calls logotherapy. When he gets out of the camp and the war ends he goes back to Austria and becomes -- you know, continues his studies and his practice and he writes the book that I read, Man's Search for Meaning. And he also then, in the second part, explicates his theory of logotherapy which is logo in Greek literally means meaning, so it's meaning therapy. And so how does he help people with this therapy? I mean, first of all, he says things like suffering which, of course, is what he went through in the camps and ceases to be suffering the moment it finds a meaning. And he gives a very small example of not even a therapy patient but someone he had spoken to came to therapy who didn't actually continue to need it. This man who is a General came to Viktor Frankl because his wife had died and he loved his wife very much and could not see his way past the grief.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And Viktor Frankl, as he says, assessed the situation and said to the General, "Well, what about if you predeceased her, how would she have felt?" And he said, "It would have devastated her. She would have suffered incredibly," and Viktor Frankl said, "So therefore, her predeceasing you saved her that suffering. Basically, you gave that to her. She did not have to suffer because she predeceased you." And something hit the General that made him feel like that has meaning to me. That yes, that's something I can hold on to. That is something I can hold on to. That she's not suffering and I can now feel like I -- there's meaning in my suffering because she won't have it. So that resonated and then Frankl talks about, you know, some more psychological terms and psychiatry, like what forced intention is. Meaning, when we're determined to feel something, it prohibits that actual feeling of something. So like we're determined to be happy, we're determined to be the best, you know, partner in the world or best homemaker and you know, by obsessing on that it actually prohibits that from actually having your feeling of happiness or satisfaction of it. Also hyper reflection which I think we can all relate to, I certainly can, which is thinking way too much about something. But, you know, within that it's like when is too much? You know, how do you know when you're being hyper reflective on something? That to me is an issue. And some solutions he presented was like paradoxical intention and like, for example, one of his patients was prone to excessive sweating and Frankl said to him, "Well, the next time you go into a situation, just say to yourself I'm going to sweat buckets. I'm going to sweat like I've never sweat before." And, of course, as we can imagine the guy didn't sweat anywhere near as much because he relieves himself of the tension of the sweating. So you could also see in here like it sounds familiar and these concepts probably sound familiar, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah. I mean --

[Frank] Because Viktor Frankl which I did not know is sort of like, this foundation of positive psychology that became self-help and popular psychology in our time sort of laid the groundwork for these. I mean, before Freud was predominant and Freud continued to be but there are other ways of looking at psychology. But Frankl actually was one of the sort of foundations of this psychology that we're sort of familiar with today.

[Rhonda] So it came out of his reflecting on his experience in the concentration camp?

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] That's how he developed these different theories or these different methods.

[Frank] Right, exactly. By his observations of other people's behavior as well as his own.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Being self-reflective. And he comes to, you know, several conclusions from his experience that led him to his development of logotherapy which is an interesting flip on what we might normally think. And he says, it's we ourselves who must answer the questions that life asks of us. And to these questions, we can respond only by being responsible for our existence. So it's not like us asking life, why am I not happy and what is life? Like who are we or what are we asking? But like that question of like -- dear, it's stifling hot in here. Pardon me. Is that concept of why am I not happy? But flipping it and saying, "Well, life is asking something of me so how can I respond to that and be responsible to my own existence?" In a way, I was thinking when I was reading that like instead -- because happy is such a fuzzy term to me. It's like happiness is like a collection of other emotions or feelings.

[Rhonda] Yeah, what it could really mean to be happy.

[Frank] Right. So I imagine flip -- interpolating the word happiness or happy with responsibility. So, you know, "Oh, Rhonda, I'm just not happy with my life. I don't know what I'm doing with my career and my life," or I say, "Rhonda, I'm not being responsible to my life. I don't know how to be responsible with my personal life and my career." Doesn't that sort of say something else?

[Rhonda] Yeah. It definitely does.

[Frank] It's sort of [inaudible] action.

[Rhonda] Right. I don't know and it also kind of makes me think of, you know, these other philosophies and how other -- like the Buddhist version of happiness is kind of just disconnecting yourself from desire. You know, I don't know, just there's a lot there.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, it seems to indicate, when you say I'm not happy it seems to be like you can just sit in that emotion of unhappiness.

[Rhonda] Right, of course.

[Frank] And I'm saying I'm not responsible or I don't feel responsible to my life indicates action required and again, personally, which I find very illuminating, personal specific experiences is -- I'm very prone to self-reflection and to contemplate on happiness. I think we all are on some degree, of course.

[Rhonda] Especially now that people have been isolated so much more.

[Frank] Right. But this was something I learned before all this in that I have a very odd relationship to food sometimes like about eating and making sure I eat and stuff that like. So sometimes like I don't have -- of course, in my apartment I got very little food. These days I have much more because of necessity, but normally I just like, "All right, I got to go out and eat," and I would sit and say, "What do I want, like what do I want to eat? Do I want Chinese or Mexican? What do I want to eat? And then I would just sit -- I could sit for an hour, you know, just --

[Rhonda] Thinking about what you want to eat.

[Frank] Right and between other distractions but -- and then I'm really hungry and I get -- then you get really miserable because you're just like, "Oh, I'm so hungry and I can't think." What I learned eventually through sheer frustration I once just said, just get out. Just put your coat on and get out.

[Rhonda] You just go, yeah.

[Frank] And the minute I got out, I realized, "Oh yeah, that's right. There's that little supermarket, I can get blah, blah, blah." So I what learned and I really did way before I read this book, was that action, when you don't know what you're doing, taking any action at all seems to breed action, that you then have another action and it really works every time. Like sometimes I'm just like, "Oh, what do I want?" I'm like, "All right. Just go out," and it even feels in my brain you're going to go out on the street, you're going to stand there like a weirdo not knowing which way to turn. But when I get on the street, I find a solution appears. So like action can breed action. It's just interesting so --

[Rhonda] But isn't that kind of just like the whole philosophy of just procrastination and kind of --

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] -- all the things written about procrastination, you know, the fact that we don't do something or we don't make a decision is almost based out of fear --

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] -- of doing it wrong.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Doing it incorrectly, not making the right choices so we just don't do it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] You know so --

[Frank] Right. And because -- you know, I have such an -- I do have and I think we all do again, everyone has a different degree in it, this need for meaning, like even to the fact of what I'm going to eat has to have some meaning to it. Like it's got to be the right thing, like you just said. So yeah, I mean, you can see the familiarity of these concepts in our current like psychological landscape or least in some self-help books, psychology books. Frankl was sort of one of the first to sort of lay this foundation popularly. You know, like I broke my leg but my leg didn't break me kind of thing. You know?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I'm not going to let that define me kind of thing. So there's a lot, of course, in here and there's a lot more one can read about it but what is interesting and sort of -- what's the word? Not fascinated but just something that brings you really in is his experiences in an extreme situation of history which is the concentration camps during World War II and what he learned and then developed from that experience is interesting alone. Whether you agree on what he came up with or not on how to live one's life or help one's self, it's still fascinating read that way. And, you know, I did dig a little bit into research and, of course, like in anyone's life there are some discrepancies. People felt they discovered of his own life that could be controversial. I mean, I think that's very familiar to us because of the availability of so much information or at least -- well, information whether it's true or not on the internet, but that's another story. And I just mentioned it just because it's something that surfaced for me that [inaudible] for me. But I still felt it was an interesting read and definitely helpful. I mean, I did go -- to be honest, I went to a discussion of this with a colleague of mine and I found the discussion really interesting. Normally, when you have a book discussion going into your personal life, like if we discussed the fiction book, Brooklyn by Colm Tóibín, going into your own personal life, in certain book discussion rules doesn't apply, like you talk about the text and only the text. With a book that's psychology or so-called self-help, you know, it's almost unavoidable to relate it, like I just did and that's really why I did, at least I think. And that's when it's sort of permitted, like you can talk about your life. And I thought it was very interesting, everybody was respectful to each other and brought up different situations that really illuminated the book's content and I thought that was really interesting, like some of the stories I brought up about 9/11 or figuring out what to eat. I mean, there were others as well that were fascinating. So it's a great book discussion, that's for sure.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Oh, I can see how that could, how so much could come out of that and just him, you know, being able to reflect on his own experience that way and I'm sure, you know, a lot of it is because of, you know, his background in psychiatry. But just being able to reflect and write and deal with that situation in that way is fascinating in itself.

[Frank] Yeah. You know what I have to say to that?

[Rhonda] What?

[Frank] Hit it, John. You've been listening to The Librarian Is In because it's in. We're always in. We're never out. We're always in. We're never out, always, always in. Yeah!

[Rhonda] We need more [inaudible].

[Frank] Do you have any final comments? You can't possibly after that.

[Rhonda] Well, no, but we may have to let them know what our next book [inaudible].

[Frank] Focusing. Thank you. Focusing Frank, the Rhonda Evans Story. Yes. The next book we're going to read which is a book that is on the New York Public Library's 125 Books We Love list, is a book I have talked about before but now Rhonda and I are going to read it together again. I'm going to read it again. She's going to read it for the first time called The Autobiography of Red by Anne Carson and it's a fiction book. It's catalogued at poetry in the library because Anne Carson is a poet and it is poetically organized but it is one story. And I can't wait to hear what Rhonda thinks of it and you guys as well. So read along with us, won't you? The Autobiography of Red by Anne Carson is next, next time we meet, babies. So bye.

[Rhonda] Bye.

[Speaker] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast or Google Play or send us an email at podcasts@NYPL.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit NYPL. org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.