Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Listen on Amazon Music

Hi-di-ho! Happy snow! (If you don't have any, we'll gladly send you some of ours!) This week Frank and Rhonda chose books on opposite ends of the genre spectrums...

Frank was up for a quick, easy read (ha) and picked up Plato. He read:

"The Meno" in Great Dialogues of Plato by Plato

Rhonda picked up a crime noir book...

Blacktop Wasteland by S.A. Cosby

A gritty, voice-driven thriller about a former getaway driver who thought he had escaped the criminal life who is pulled back in by race, poverty, and his own former life of crime. Beauregard "Bug" Montage is a man with many different titles: husband, father, friend, honest car mechanic. But before he gave it up, Bug used to be known from the hills of North Carolina to the beaches of Florida as the best Wheel Man on the East Coast. After a series of financial calamities, Bug feels he has no choice but to take one final job as the getaway driver for a daring diamond heist that could solve all his money troubles and allow him to go straight once and for all. Like "Ocean's Eleven" meets "Drive" (but with a mostly black cast of characters), Blacktop Wasteland is a searing, operatic story of sons living up (or down) to their fathers; of a heist gone sideways; of a man ground down by economic desperation; of fast cars and daring chases and identity and love. (Publisher summary)

Before you go! Next week we'll be joined by a special guest—a Young Adult librarian who will have some great recommendations to satisfy your YA fix!

And! Don't forget to read along with us. Next week our hosts will be discussing...

The Hound of the Baskervilles by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle 

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Hound of the Baskervilles gripped readers when it was first serialised and has continued to hold its place in the popular imagination to this day. Could the sudden death of Sir Charles Baskerville have been caused by the gigantic ghostly hound that is said to have haunted his family for generations? Arch-rationalist Sherlock Holmes characteristically dismisses the theory as nonsense. And, immersed in another case, he sends Dr Watson to Devon to protect the Baskerville heir and observe the suspects at close hand. With its atmospheric setting on the ancient, wild moorland and its savage apparition, The Hound of the Baskervilles is one of the greatest crime novels ever written. Rationalism is pitted against the supernatural and good against evil as Sherlock Holmes sets out to defeat a foe almost his equal. (Publisher summary)

---

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

---

How to listen to The Librarian Is In

Subscribing to The Librarian Is In on your mobile device is the easiest way to make sure you never miss an episode. Episodes will automatically download to your device, and be ready for listening every other Thursday morning

On your iPhone or iPad:
Open the purple “Podcasts” app that’s preloaded on your phone. If you’re reading this on your device, tap this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass in the app and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.”

On your Android phone or tablet:
Open the orange “Play Music” app that’s preloaded on your device. If you’re reading this on your device, click this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass icon and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.” 

Or if you have another preferred podcast player, you can find “The New York Public Library Podcast” there. (Here’s the RSS feed.)

From a desktop or laptop:
Click the “play” button above to start the show. Make sure to keep that window open on your browser if you’re doing other things, or else the audio will stop. You can always find the latest episode at nypl.org/podcast.​​ ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

---

Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In. The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] And here we are. How are you Rhonda?

[Rhonda] I'm pretty good. You know, we had, I guess this is our second snow storm of the winter. So, I don't know, it's kind of, I mean, I know it's a little treacherous out there, but I feel like it's just nice to actually see the snow.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, you know, with the snow, and all that's happening, I feel like alternately like, desolate, joyful, disgusted, over it, under it, next to it, I don't know what I'm feeling. I'm feeling a lot of things. But the snow is pretty. It really was.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It's just like more reasons to keep closing, but cest la vie!

[Rhonda] I know, but we'll get through it, it won't last long. The thing about snow, it's feeling. It never really lasts that long.

[Frank] Exactly, I mean, that's the thing. There's nothing else to say but things don't stay the same for long. We will get through all of it, and we will triumph. Period.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] We will triumph!

[Rhonda] Exactly, things are going to look up.

[Frank] Huh!

[Rhonda] That's a good reason to be hopeful, right?

[Frank] Good.

[Rhonda] We will get through everything.

[Frank] Well, I have another reason to be hopeful. We--I think you saw it, I'm sure you saw it, but we got the sweetest, most lovely, for several reasons, email, from people who listen to us. This young couple, who emailed us and said that they listened to the podcast, when they're doing their dishes--

[Rhonda] Uh huh!

[Frank] Their never-ending pile of dishes, which I could totally identify with. I've probably said this before, but like, ever since blah-blah-blah, I've been cooking everything. So I feel like I'm always doing dishes.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So when they said that in their email, I was like, I identify with--if you, listening to us gets you through doing the dishes, I'm more than happy to help. But they said two things that bring cosmic joy to my soul. One was that he was not much of a reader, but since listening to the podcast, has read more, and indeed, he read Tanasi Coates, Between the World and Me, and was reading Bodega Dreams, and we had talked about it, and most importantly, she said that she wants me to continue singing musical theater [laughter]--

[Rhonda] That's the main reason [laughing].

[Frank] Hit it, kids! [Singing] Another opening, another show! Three to get ready, and four to go! I'm making up the words, but that's how things go on Librarian Is In, yeah!

[Rhonda] [Laughing] That was a--yeah, that's a little Vaudeville?

[Frank] I think that's from Kiss Me, Kate!

[Rhonda] Yeah, sounds like Kiss Me, Kate.

[Frank] Which I had--what am I saying think? I actually was--

[Rhonda] I don't know for sure, I haven't seen that in so long.

[Frank] It's a good show.

[Rhonda] It is very good.

[Frank] It's a good show [singing], another opening! Another show! [Speaking] We should do like they did in Buffy, have an all-singing, I've said this, have an all-singing podcast.

[Rhonda] I don't know about that! Maybe on your end. Maybe I can talk my part, and you can sing your part?

[Frank] You could be like the Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady, and just sing, talk-singing.

[Rhonda] Talk--kind of like, how, what was Marlon Brando talk saying in Guys and Dolls?

[Frank] Right! And then I could be--yeah, I'll be the show stopper, I don't have a problem with that [laughs].

[Rhonda] Yes, you can be the show stopper, you're the one with the chops!

[Frank] [Laughs] Gosh! I've been doing this for 40 years baby!

[Rhonda] Wow!

[Frank] Broadway is in my soul! Anyway--well that was a great email, and hello to you guys.

[Rhonda] Very nice.

[Frank] You know who you are, I know you're listening, doing your dishes.

[Rhonda] They're very supportive, very sweet.

[Frank] We love you.

[Rhonda] Yes. Absolutely.

[Frank] It was, just a great email and it made me, it just--was one of those emails that gives you reason to go on.

[Rhonda] I know!

[Frank] Now that we're doing our job, people are reading, people are enjoying, I mean, that's the whole point.

[Rhonda] Exactly, that is the point. And to encourage people to read things that are kind of outside their normal zone of--you know, their comfort zone, of what they would normally explore, and you know?

[Frank] Well it's--

[Rhonda] Besides that, it's all worth it.

[Frank] [Chuckles] I certainly read something out of my comfort zone--probably a lot of people's.

[Rhonda] Hmm, really I want to hear it.

[Frank] Just--on that never-ending quest of organic decisions of what to read, and sort of in the mood for, or feeling like I needed something that might be rigorous, and that might give me sort of an--the attempt, at least, the attempt to try focus more, and really sort of understand. Because what I read was very short, only like 20-something pages. Not a short story. But a dialogue--what did I read? A dialogue of Plato.

[Rhonda] Whoa! You--went for it, you really went for it, huh Frank?

[Frank] You're like whoa!

[Rhonda] Whoa!

[Frank] It goes back to the Fifth Century B.C.

[Rhonda] Why not?

[Frank] I read that in Rogers School.

[Rhonda] Well, you know, actually--

[Frank] Years ago.

[Rhonda] Oh yeah, I never did, actually. I don't think I ever read Plato, and a colleague of ours at the Seward Park Library, a librarian is doing an online course, so anyone listening can go check it out at the Seward Park Library Events, for the New York Public Library, on Plato's dialogues, and I would attend, and I like the librarian who teaches it, and I wish I could be a teacher like him. But instead, I've just tried to hire teachers. But I thought I would do it, but it was, like I said, sort of a desire for reading something philosophical. Something that might require attention from me, and rigor. So I did. And the dialogue I read was The Meno, M-E-N-O, so I guess I should just tell you all about it right?

[Frank] Yeah!

[Rhonda] I've been dreading this, because I'm like, I literally was doing homework. I read it like three or four times. I had to go over it and over it again. There's a geometrical problem in the middle of this dialogue that I had to sort of figure out, which was so difficult. And I don't think I actually really figured it out, but I'll try. Well, actually, I was going to--before I even told you I was reading Plato, I was going to ask you a question.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] It's of course these dialogues, are like between Socrates and some Athenian person in Greece, talking about different issues, and you know, Plato writes in Socrates' voice. Socrates was Plato's teacher. And so this one basically starts off with what is virtue? So what is virtue, Rhonda? Come on--

[Frank] Wow, what is virtue?

[Rhonda] Let's go, pull it out!

[Frank] Oh god, you put me on the spot.

[Rhonda] I know [laughs].

[Frank] It's the, like a set of principles, maybe, that someone has.

[Rhonda] Principles--

[Frank] That's how I can think about it.

[Rhonda] Principles that--

[Rhonda] Or kind of like, like your moral principles, like what is like your moral standard?

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, I'm the authority. Please, if I--

[Rhonda] Yeah, that's my--off the top of my head, that's kind of what I think of when I think of virtue, kind of like living up to your own kind of--or whoever is society's set of moral standards.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, and obviously good ones, like courage, or beneficence, or temperance, or justice. Good moral standards. So you know, the question they ask in the dialogue of Meno is, can virtue, can these virtues be taught?

[Rhonda] Ah!

[Frank] Can you learn them? So, you know, Meno, who is sort of like a bit of a pompous, wealthy young Athenian, who has studied under the instructor Gorgias, or gorgeous, as I used to say--

[Rhonda] [Laughs] Gorgeous, yep.

[Frank] Hello gorgeous! And Gorgias' style is basically to inculcate his students with learning by just telling them what the answers are, like what--and even if it's a philosophical question that some might say have no answers, or difficult answers, he will give them an answer so they can pontificate and impress with their rhetoric, the assembled populous. So they can basically show off and make people feel insecure that they don't know enough [coughs], excuse me. So Socrates is a lot more probing and believes in asking questions of the person he's talking to, to get to answers, but also to reveal in the person he's talking to's interlocutor how much they don't know about a subject, and Meno is sort of right for that, because he thinks he knows everything, or wants to know something he doesn't know, and wants Socrates to just hand him a big, bombastic answer. So when Meno asked Socrates, like can you tell me if virtue can be taught? Socrates sort of says, well, you know, you're used to like you know, getting the big answers, and showing off once you get them, and cowing other people into thinking you know everything, but what we don't even know what virtue is to begin with, so how can we know if it's taught? Like I don't know what virtue is. Socrates is very self-deprecating. And Meno can't believe Socrates doesn't know what virtue is. And so Socrates says well, since you obviously know so much, what is virtue to you? And Meno basically says well virtue is different from men, because men rule the world, and they have to govern with justice, and they have to be good bosses, and it's different for women, because women have to run the household, and be submissive to their husbands, and yeah, and it's different for children, and it's different for older people, it's different for slaves, because slavery, slaves do figure in this dialogue, I apologize, it's sort of upsetting, but yes, there were slaves in ancient Greece.

[Rhonda] Yes, there were. Yep.

[Frank] So then Socrates says well, you know, that's different virtue, I mean virtue is good, there has to be something that makes them the same, like, courage is a virtue, justice is a virtue, but what is it between the two that they share? So we can say what virtue is, with a capital V. So what do they share? And I am like looking at my notes, there is then something, so then there has to be something that all virtues possess, that each make them a virtue. They have to be good in the same way. So Meno says, okay, well I guess all the virtues would share the common idea that they allow one to rule overall and Socrates is like, well, that doesn't really apply to children. It certainly doesn't apply to slaves. So Socrates then goes on to give the examples of what he's going for. And he talks about shapes, and he says, well, you have a triangle, A, square, they were really big into geometry. I think the discovery of geometry and the application of it made them think, and maybe it is true, that they could solve the mysteries of the material world through geometry, like shapes, and figures, of which all things are made. Then they could then attempt to solve the existential issues of the soul. I'm not sure I fully understand that, but I sort of could see how it could help one think, because then he says shapes. Alright you've got shapes, you've got a triangle, you've got a square, you've got a rectangle. Those are shapes, but what do they all have in common? And Meno is like "Huh?" [laughter], and then Socrates basically says, well, I would say, even though I don't know anything, because again, self-deprecating, that shapes contain a solid. So a shape surrounds something that is solid, and you could say that's true of a triangle, a square, of a rectangle. He's like alright, and then they go on to color, and he says you've got yellow, you've got brown, those are different colors, but what do they all share in common? And again he's like "Huh?" And he says, well you could say that color emanates from shapes. So objects in our world, color emanates from those shapes. So you get a little bit of this like back and forth questioning and trying to get to an answer. And/or reveal Meno's ignorance, which he's pretty much starting to do. So then he says, you know, one thing that I think is so important that's somehow missing from discourse these days, maybe, that you have to agree on your terms. Like, you have to agree on foundational terms before you can actually have an argument. You're both talking about essentially the same thing, and then go from there, otherwise it's just a free-for-all screaming fest. You know?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So, let's see. So they go on to talk about virtue, then they go back to virtue, and talk about virtue. And then Meno says something like it's difficult to define, because it seems like virtue is a part of virtue, meaning you can be courageous, but that's only one virtue, it's not all of them, so you can't actually get to the all, the multiplicity of virtue. And then, you know, Meno is like out for the count at this point [laughter], it's like I'm completely like, yeah, fuzzy, and I don't know what you're doing to me, and it's like you've stung me [laughter], and I'm paralyzed with incoherence. So that's like the first part. And then there's three parts, and then, yeah, I know, I'm probably boring everyone to death.

[Rhonda] No, I'm just thinking like that was pretty sweet for that to be just the beginning, you know?

[Frank] Yeah, you have to slow down and as you read this, because he really gets--Socrates will reiterate what he said twice, and to get--make sure Meno is agreeing with him, and on the same page, that he's following his logic. So they take it slow. Which is definitely a virtue.

[Rhonda] That's a virtue, for sure.

[Frank] So then they basically go back to like, well what is a virtue? Like they haven't defined it yet. And they defined shapes and color, but they don't seem to be able to define virtue. So the first part ends with a question of like can we embark on an inquiry into something that we don't even know what that something is. Like, can we even start talking about whether you can teach virtue, if we really haven't decided what virtue is. And then Socrates has an idea, and basically asks Meno to get someone in Meno's household a slave, and he then has this dialogue with the slaves, Socrates, about this--you know, I was going to go through it just to show off, but I think it's enough. Like how--basically about you have a square, he's talking to the slave, and that square is two feet square, so each side is two feet, and then he says to the slave, like who has never been taught geometry, it's been confirmed, he says like, so what would the area of that square be? And he says four, because he's thinking well 2 plus 2 is 4. And that turns out to be right, because it's actually 2 times 2, which is also 4, and then Socrates says okay let's make it double the size, to 4 feet each side of the square, so then what would the area of that square be then, and he's like 8, because 4 plus 4, doubled, is 8. So Socrates is like "Hm," now I might have lost everybody if they don't know area, how to compute area, but for an area of 4 foot square would be 16, because 4 times 4 is 16. And he goes on to show like in that big square, if you cut it up into 4 squares and so then you have the 4 squares within it, so therefore it's 4 times the amount to equal the area, so it's 16. I'm already getting lost. But then he goes on to question the slave about how to turn that area into an 8 foot square, since the slaves had said it was 8 foot square, and goes through it. And I was very happy, like one point yesterday, I was like oh my god, I understand it. And then when I went through it last night, I was like, I don't remember how I--

[Rhonda] [Laughs] You don't remember how--

[Frank] But ultimately what the point is, he then says to Meno, what I've just done is taken the slave from not knowing a thing about geometry, and just by asking him questions, because he just asks him questions, and the slave answers, has shown him something he didn't know. And what Socrates says, is that the slave is recollecting, which is a big point of this dialogue, recollecting knowledge he already had.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Wasn't teaching him. He was probing with questions, and revealing a recollection of knowledge, that the slave already had meaning. His soul, all souls, are immortal and reincarnated in body after body, so they carry that knowledge with them, through time. So also, so he basically says he learned this before he was even human. And you know, little old Socrates just sort of had him recollect it. So whether you buy that or not, that's what they came to with that. And then the last part--you dying for more? This is my big show-stopper!

[Rhonda] No, go for it!

[Frank] So he says basically the slave did not know technically, but then was revealed, like I said. So he just asked probing questions. So then he said, Socrates said this is what he thinks is called true opinion. It wasn't knowledge, because even though I just sort of said it was knowledge revealed, in the moment at hand, it couldn't be knowledge, because it wasn't something he knew to its core. It was something that was recollected by him, and revealed. So Socrates calls it true opinion, meaning it's a true thing. His divination of this geometric problem. But he doesn't quite know it yet, because you only really have knowledge if it's reiterated, and compounded, and sort of worked on a little bit more than just having a moment of question and answer revelation. So this idea of true opinion is interesting, rather than--as opposed to knowledge, but it's sort of--gives a sort of alternate route from knowledge, in that you can, Socrates ends up with his interaction with the slave by saying to Meno, this is also an example of not to give up, or be discouraged about pursuit of knowledge when you think you don't know something, or you don't even know what you're looking for. Because through the right questions and interaction, you can learn something you didn't even know you had. So then he goes, let's get back to virtue. And then they start talking about knowledge, and is knowledge, too, they've got to say, we can't figure out virtue, but let's try to see if then we can figure out if this thing we don't know much about is teachable. And they start saying can you actually have--teach something that doesn't have any teachers? Because they look around them and realize, well, there's doctors, teaching doctors, shoe makers teaching shoe makers, but is there anyone virtuous teaching virtue? They're like, no, and they're like maybe something can't be teachable if there are no teachers or pupils of it? And then they go on to say, you know, also, if a virtuous man like some of the men they know in Athens are virtuous, but their sons are sort of like, not the greatest, and a little bit, you know, spoiled and bad about kids you could say it's those virtuous men haven't taught their kids to be virtuous, they weren't able to, or didn't do it, because they didn't turn out to be virtuous themselves. So then we go on to talk about what makes a good teachers, and they talk about the Sophus, which I mentioned before, like Gorgias, who are basically rhetoric and they learn by inculcation rather than by question and answer and let's see. Clearly not known virtuous men--huh? I can't read my writing here. [Giggles] See, I'm not really a philosophy teacher.

[Rhonda] You're doing great, though.

[Frank] Okay, alright, let me just cut to it. So I actually thought it was going to go in the direction of that true opinion revelation with the slave, in that--

[Rhonda] Right--

[Frank] You can, like, you know, someone who knows where a certain city is, because they've been there, they can give you directions. But someone who has not been to that city might also know how to get there, and give you good directions. So you don't have to have that knowledge, per se, but you can still get through. And Socrates says, though, true opinion, though is not really stable. It sort of comes and goes and is not consistent. True knowledge is something that's very stable and consistent. So I thought I was going to sort of lead off with the fact that all we've got is true opinion, which the derivation of is almost like therapy, like, if you think about the Socratic dialogue, it's like going to therapy to discover something about yourself, or something about human life, with another person, which was not talked about really in those terms in this dialogue, but so they basically, and then it sort of seemed like a little bit anti-climactic. But I wonder how powerful it might have been at the time, or through the years, and I guess it is powerful. He goes, well, I guess we can only say that virtue is a gift from the gods [chuckles].

[Rhonda] Okay, that's how they--that was the decision that they came to after all of that discussion.

[Frank] Right, it's not in-born. It's not knowledge that can be taught, it must be a gift from the Gods. And you know, if we could figure it out, we might better understand it, but not in this dialogue which is, actually in a way refreshing, that it doesn't hand you an answer, which is sort of what Socrates was railing about in the beginning, about how just being handed a big, shiny, bombastic answer, so you can pontificate and impress your friends at a cocktail party is not what it's about. It's about really figuring it out. And hey, maybe in 28 pages, you can't figure out what virtue is. But I thought it was going to be, like I said, this sort of result in that coming to true opinion is maybe the best we can do without really not having true, true, true knowledge. And then it also begs the question of like, how many men who were unvirtuous, not great guys, would actually sit down and participate in a dialogue to help them become virtuous or realize their shortcomings. I mean, how many of us really want to sit down and realize our shortcomings? And maybe that goes back to therapy? Because like--

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] You really, it's a brave move, sometimes, to go into therapy. Or like a last resort, or some critical moment. I guess that's actually a good issue, is that, how many of us are really willing to sit down and engage in a difficult dialogue, about ourselves, or about the truths of being human, and as a final note, Socrates definitely believed that only philosophers should be rulers or kings, because they were the only ones who possessed real knowledge in that way, in that difficult loop, to learn way. And there's not--there's something about that, actually. I mean, just the discourse today in public life.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Is just like a screaming match, and it's seen--it's so

[Rhonda] Oh my god.

[Frank] It's so, you know, playground in that, like, when someone says well you did this, and this, like, well you did this, this, and this, like the democrats did this, the republicans did this, and it's like, you're not going to get anywhere, you're just going to be in your own little corner. So I read Plato's Meno.

[Rhonda] That is, yeah, I commend you, Frank. Because you know, I think you did a great job, because people spend months and years [laughs] analyzing those pages, you know?

[Frank] I know.

[Rhonda] You know, people have entire semester-long, year-long symposiums and courses on this, so I think that you are able to kind of tackle this in the time that you did. I definitely have to give that to you, Frank!

[Frank] Thank you. I mean, reading it three times, like, by the time--sometimes things crystallize very clearly and it's very exciting. Sometimes it's just as confusing as it ever was. But that's sort of great about reading language, difficult language, in that when you get it, there's no better feeling. Like, when you understand. You know? Or think you do.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Like I did have a moment yesterday where I, the geometric problem, I really figured out, and I was like O, M to the G!

[Rhonda] You had a revelation.

[Frank] Yeah, but then, not so sure, like, how geometry figures in the pursuit of knowledge, but yet, sort of understand. So, I tried to challenge myself.

[Rhonda] You, yeah, I understand, and I, you know, thinking back to that time period, and the fact that people just could sit around, and I guess people still maybe do that, but just sit around for hours and hours, just reflecting, and having these conversations, I guess, trying to dig deeper to, you know, to the answers of, of life. That we can't really ever understand, or ever get a concrete answer to, but just still trying to dig through the layers, to just get a better understanding, a deeper understanding of just why things are. But I guess that's kind of philosophy, so.

[Frank] You know--

[Rhonda] It's fascinating.

[Frank] I think I should start a salon when we re-open, and have like, fainting couches, where we can all--and I'm not even really kidding. We can all lie around, and just, for six hours, have this conversation. That would be cool.

[Rhonda] That would be interesting. I don't know if I could do that, but I would definitely like to hear about it.

[Frank] I love it, I mean, I love the idea. It sounds exhausting, but I love the idea though. Maybe a class in rhetoric.

[Rhonda] Yeah, that would be interesting.

[Frank] Yeah, or real debate.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Anywho--what were you reading darling?

[Rhonda] Oh, okay so pretty much the exact opposite [laughter], what you went to.

[Frank] Like Crazy Cat comics, I know.

[Rhonda] No, that sounds good though.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But I actually kind of went with the gritty crime novel.

[Frank] Ooh.

[Rhonda] That just came out, 2020 I want to say, and I'll have to say that, you know you hear that term kind of, there's no such thing as bad press, or no such thing as bad PR.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] That's kind of how I found this book. It was, I believe, the cover of Booklist put the cover of this--the cover art--of this novel on the cover of their issue of Book List. And it was, the cover of the novel is these cars and in the rear-view mirror, you can kind of see this black man coming, and then they're like, crime novels. And it kind of got, you know, it became kind of a controversy, because people were saying, well, why do you have to have the black man on the cover, if he's talking about crime novels. But no one really realized that was the cover of this novel, which is called Blacktop Wasteland, by a black author called S.A. Cosby. And he even had to kind of jump in and say, well, this is the cover of my novel, and I really don't have a problem with it, but it kind of became a thing. But that's how I learned of this book. Because of that controversy. And it starts out, it is a crime drama, you would call it. And we are a modern-day--the main character that we are seeing the story through is named Beauregard Montage, and we are set in kind of a small town in Virginia. And he is also known in certain circles as Bug. And the--

[Frank] Bug?

[Rhonda] Bug, like b-u-g, bug.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] Like, that's his other kind of name, his other personality, I guess. And we start out learning about Beauregard through this illegal drag race. So you kind of are introduced right away to like his knowledge, and his love of cars, especially cars that you, and I probably don't have the right terminology because I'm not a car person, but outfitting cars, so that they can go really, really fast, like drag race, like just basically, you know, doing everything you can to your car, just making it go from like zero to 100 miles in 60 seconds, right?

[Frank] This takes place in current times?

[Rhonda] Current times. Right.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] So, you're introduced to him, he's at this illegal drag race, he has this car called the Duster, and he's going to race it, and he knows basically that his Duster can beat everyone. And he does, but what turns out is that it was kind of a setup, so that whoever won, will basically still lose, and it's a whole story about how people kind of got, he got set up to get his money stolen. But he finds the guy who stole his money and kind of beats the living daylights out of him.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] So, through that short, you know, opening, this is what we know of Beauregard. You know? He's racing. He has no fear of kind of like, violence, and then we kind of get into this, it's a slow build-up, after that, of kind of what happens. And what we learn about Beauregard is that he has, and it's a story that you've seen in other places, right? someone who used to live, just kind of fast life of crime, trying to kind of get on the straight and narrow. So the Beauregard that we see, he is a small business owner. He owns a mechanic shop. He is a husband. He has three children. And he is kind of trying to live on the straight and narrow, where before all of this, he was basically a getaway driver. People knew him and the, you know, Robbery world, as the fastest, best getaway driver that you could have.

[Frank] Did he go to jail or anything?

[Rhonda] Oh, gosh. I feel like, no, I don't think he did.

[Frank] So he--

[Rhonda] I don't think he was caught previously. I'm trying to [inaudible]--

[Frank] So he just decided to get his act together and become more virtuous?

[Rhonda] There you go.

[Frank] Without like, the penalty of jail as a deciding factor. He did it on his own, I assume?

[Rhonda] Yeah, well, and the deciding factor, I think, has to do with, there's kind of another storyline there, which is just kind of generational of his father. He learned--he inherited the car, the Duster, from his father. His father was the greatest getaway driver. And his father basically, at around age 13, skipped town on him and his family. And kind of Beauregard saw it as, you know, he wanted to maintain this fast crime life that he was living, and so he abandoned his family, and Beauregard was like, well I don't want to be that person.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] Well Beauregard said, you know, I'm going to, you know, stop this life. I'm going to do what I have to do to stay straight and narrow. But of course, you know, there's something that messes this up for him. And basically it's money, right? So kind of what we learn, and this part, you know, he really does kind of give us a lot of build-up to the decisions that the author, to the decisions that Beauregard makes in terms of, you know, his mechanics shop is basically going under because there's one of those really, really big chain, chain mechanic shops that are open near him, and it's kind of, you know, messing up his business, and his oldest daughter doesn't have money for college. And his mother is in a nursing home and just lost her Medicaid. So you know, he's having to deal with all of these financial difficulties. And of course, someone out of his past comes back to him, and says listen, I got a job for you.

[Frank] Alright.

[Rhonda] And you know--

[Frank] This is so classic, I'm sorry to interrupt.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] But so classic Noir.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm!

[Frank] Very like, you know, a dicey past, he's trying to put it behind him, on the straight and narrow, all these like, I could see the extreme close-up of like the furrowed brow, and like a bottle next to him, just trying to like, fight it off, fight it off, fight it off, because he needs the money, needs the money. And then suddenly, that, when you said "out of the past," it was like that Noir-ish out of the past comes the "Hey! I got an offer you can't refuse!"

[Rhonda] Exactly. It's exactly what it's like. And this guy who comes out of the past, named Ronnie, and it's like, Ronnie is such a character. And one of the things that's kind of funny about Ronnie is he is obsessed with Elvis, and his arms, both of his arms, are completely covered with Elvis tattoos. From all stages of his life. So he has like young Elvis, fat Elvis, Vegas Elvis, and I don't know, I thought that was pretty funny. But this guy, Ronnie, who comes out of the past, has this job and it's a bank robbery of course. And he needs the best driver. He wants Beauregard, but of course, like you said, the classic kind of, you know, storyline with this is Beauregard is thinking, you know, this is just--I do have to do this one job, right?

[Frank] Yeah, yeah. Ah!

[Rhonda] You know what--

[Frank] It's just, one more and then I'll be set.

[Rhonda] Exactly. He's like if I just do this one last job, I can all of my financial problems will be set, and I can go back to just being you know, on the straight and narrow so he, of course he decides, he says I'm going to do this one last job. Right?

[Frank] Dun-dun-dun!

[Rhonda] Dun-dun-dun! So, you know, they're planning this, not a bank robbery, I'm sorry. It's a robbery of a jewelry store. Because if Ronnie has the insight that there's this safe, in the jewelry store, with all of these diamonds, and they're going to sell it and, you know, so he wants Ronnie, and, sorry, he wants Beauregard, and Beauregard is, you know, he doesn't want to do it, but he's like, I've got to do this one last job, and then I'm good. So you see, so what happens here is that Beauregard is the best, because he plans. So he goes, and he's like, doing all the recon, he's plotting the--he's plotting the getaway route, and all this kind of stuff, and while he's doing that, and this is kind of where a little bit of return happens, he's near the jewelry shop and then he sees this young couple kind of abandoned, their car has broken down. And the young husband is like trying to flag everyone down, and like please help me, please help me, and Beauregard sees that the wife in the car is like in labor, like about to pop. And you know, he's like, this isn't my business, I should just let it go, I should just, you know, it's not my business, but he can't stop himself from helping. So we have this part of Beauregard. And of course, he gets--he takes, he gets in the car of the young couple and does his fast driving. And gets them to the hospital just in time. So this plays later into what happens.

[Frank] So he tries to do a--he does a good deed.

[Rhonda] He does a good deed. And then we're going to, you know, fast-forwarding a little bit to the actual heist, because the heist is actually early in the book. And it's really just a small part of the story.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] It's got their--so he's the getaway driver. So the actual, the crew that he's working with--Ronnie, and Ronnie's like, brother, and Ronnie's friend, are the ones who are actually in the jewelry shop doing the heist. And one of the friends gets a little trigger happy and kills someone in the midst of doing this robbery. And of course, who is it? It's the young husband, who is in the shop trying to find something for his wife.

[Frank] So of course, this kind of messes with Beauregard's head, right? He's kind of like, was this all worth it? You know, this is his fault, even though he wasn't in there. And this is just kind of like, again, brings up all of these thoughts and emotions about, you know, what kind of life he should really be living. But basically they pull it off. They get their little bit of money. But it turns out that the people who actually own these diamonds was like a really big crime syndicate. So, so again, consequences, right? So they are after them because they want their diamonds back. But the diamonds have been sold, so they basically say, the crime boss says, listen, I saw how you drove that car.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] You want to get out of this? You have to do another thing for me. So of course, he's getting pulled in even deeper.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And it ends up being this big kind of like double-cross, right? Because he thinks that he's going to get out of this free and clear. But of course, they have other plans, they want to, you know, they want to murder him and it ends up, you know, he ends up getting someone else he loves, a cousin of his, who is involved in this, killed as well. I'm sorry, I'm spoiling it. So, everything kind of goes wrong for him. And the only way that he can really dig himself out of this is to kind of, again, double-cross the crime syndicate, so that the other crime syndicate can--you know, it's this big thing. Like mob bosses, and like, turning one against the other. And you know, trying to find his way, to dig his way out of this. So there's a lot of kind of going back and forth, and plotting, and criss-crossing, as they say.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Eventually is able to kind of get himself out of this, but not without a lot of consequences.

[Frank] Alright, like, you didn't really reveal the end, right?

[Rhonda] I didn't reveal the end.

[Frank] Maybe we shouldn't for once, like, be polite about it. But it seems like, it's like a Neo-Noir.

[Rhonda] It definitely is. Yeah.

[Frank] I mean those just never come to good.

[Rhonda] Never come to good ends.

[Frank] I mean--see, I want to know, like how the family was, like his family. How they--

[Rhonda] I wont' reveal that part, because it's--

[Frank] Alright, alright, that's fair.

[Rhonda] But I will say what they do bring up, and of course, I guess this is part of all these Noir stories, is you know, he has these two identities. He has Beauregard, and he has Bug. And you know, what he reveals is that he actually really enjoys being Bug. Like, he really, you know, it was because of the money, but he actually just kind of wanted to do it, you know, he wanted to drive the getaway car. He likes the rush. He likes the adrenalin it gives him. He just really enjoys aspects of that lifestyle. And again, kind of thinking about what you were talking about with Plato, and the discussion of like virtue, and who we are. He kind of has this internal discussion, like can I be Bug? And can I be Beauregard? Can I be both? And he's like, or do I really have to make a decision? And if I have to, can I be Beauregard, and not think about, and not want to be Bug, the criminal, again? And I don't know if I want to reveal what his--you know what? I'm not going to say.

[Frank] Good [laughing].

[Rhonda] I'm not going to say what his decision is.

[Frank] You know what? I think that's fine. I mean--

[Rhonda] Yeah. I want people to read it and see what they think for themselves. But that's the dilemma that he has. And he does make a decision. And I'm not going to say what that decision is, I'm going to leave people hanging. But that's like what you get with him, huh?

[Frank] No, I'm--in excitement, I knocked on a lamp. But it's interesting, it is interesting how connections can be made between a Socratic dialogue. He, that he basically has with himself, about whether to be a good, I mean, I wonder how Plato would characterize it, a good or bad person? Would he say good or bad? Because actually there's an interesting thing about the dialogue too that I didn't mention. But Socrates calls knowledge, or derived knowledge, or like, successfully discussed hypotheses as either valid or invalid, not right or wrong.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Which is an interesting question, especially as related to Bug, like, you know, this concept of right or wrong might be too literal sometimes. Like it's almost like valid and invalid. Like is this a sustainable thing? Like is this a sustainable choice in a way? I got, you know, that rush, that sort of excitement, that sort of car-related frenzy he's got. Like, is that worth, I mean, is that worth possible sacrifice to other aspects of his life. And like you said, you know, what are the consequences? Like can we make this choice? And what are the potential consequences?

[Rhonda] That takes a lot of thought. It looks like he puts the thought in there. He does put the thought in there, definitely, and then there is also this, again, this kind of generational aspect of it. Because he begins to kind of see his oldest son pick up some of these habits or some of these interests that he has, that have kind of led him to this life of crime. And of course, he got it from his father. And he's like, well, am I--like, if I stick around, would I be this bad influence? But if I left, would it be the same situation that I'm dealing with, with his own father? And so this kind of aspect of, you know, what kind of parent should be he, and the impact that he's having on his children, and yeah, and again, like that's another aspect I don't really want to spoil for people, is how this family kind of gets folded into all of this. But like you said, I like the way that he was, the author was really kind of dealing with Beauregard, or Bug's internal dialogue in this novel. Well, you know, it's a lot to think about, but there's also like action, and you know--

[Frank] Fun.

[Rhonda] Fun in it, as well.

[Frank] I mean it is that question like, I guess we can go back to philosophical inquiry, into Plato, and all that. That he had the example of his father, but we also, as I said in my spiel, you can't necessarily teach virtuousness.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So you can teach being bad? And because of something in Bug stops him at some point, and becomes a good guy, so-called, in society by running his business and all that stuff. So what made him do that? Like what--was it something he learned? Or something that was innate in him? You know, that is interesting to think about. And then of course the sort of temptations of, or the real pressures of his life and then the temptations of easy money--so called easy money.

[Rhonda] Right, right.

[Frank] That gives me a [inaudible]--

[Rhonda] Yeah. So--

[Frank] I wonder, who is the author?

[Rhonda] His name is S.A. Cosby.

[Frank] And it's Blacktop what?

[Rhonda] Blacktop Wasteland.

[Frank] Oh wow.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] That's not a good omen, the word wasteland.

[Rhonda] I know, right? But it's--I'd be interested to hear, you know, what other people thought who have read this book.

[Frank] So was the cover like pulpy--like a sort of

[Rhonda] Yes, I think so.

[Frank] Yeah. Was it an illustration or a picture?

[Rhonda] It's a photograph, picture.

[Frank] Oh, interesting. Well, that was quite a gamut.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Maybe everything is philosophy. Hm.

[Rhonda] Yeah. There's core.

[Frank] Existential. And I guess any author, like--I was going to say any author worth his or her salt, I don't want to put that judgment on it, but like, does contemplate why we do the things we do. Why we are the way we are.

[Rhonda] Yeah, and one last thing, I did listen to it on audible, and at the very end, there was kind of a treat, because there was a short interview with the author, and two of the things that really stood out was that, one was the setting. So he really wanted to talk about the south, so you know, we talk about New York, and that, this world's so much, but like, he said he really would like to focus on this small rural, like, communities in the South. So I also thought that was interesting. And also he discussed his own love for like drag racing and cars, so that definitely came through in the novel, just like knowledge, and his, you know--so I'll leave it at that.

[Frank] This, I mean, the more you say, the more is not revealed in terms of plot, but that there is a lot more going on than one thinks. I mean, that's the whole thing about book talks. It's like there is so much that is there, that the reader has to go find out for themselves. So thank you Rhonda. That was very enjoyable.

[Rhonda] [Laughs] Good!

[Frank] [Laughs] And I think we can continue with the, well, we can go old school rather than Neo-Mystery. I think we are going to read, we are going to read Arthur Conan-Doyle's The Hound of the Baskervilles.

[Rhonda] Yes!

[Frank] Is it the hound, or the hounds?

[Rhonda] Yes, the Hound of the Baskervilles.

[Frank] Which is on what? What else? The New York Public Library's 125 Books We Love, even though we're now really into year 126.

[Rhonda] That is true.

[Frank] This is a 2020 thing. But why not? Why not, you know, pull from that list, since there's so many good things there. And I--I vaguely remember reading the Case of the Speckled Band, a short story, a Sherlock Holmes short story, in high school.

[Rhonda] I am ashamed to say I have not read any Sherlock Holmes. So this will be my first. And I think one of the most popular out of the collection, right?

[Frank] So clearly a bunch of librarians thought so, who voted for this, to be on the list. Okay, so we're going to read the Hound of the Baskervilles, by Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle. And we'll discuss that together, and we also have, we'll have a special guest, young adult librarian, who is going to give us some young adult titles that he read. So we're going to get a little YA action, as well. What do you think, Rhonda?

[Rhonda] I'm excited.

[Frank] Good.

[Rhonda] Yeah, definitely.

[Frank] So, go out in the snow and frolic.

[Rhonda] Alright [laughter].

[Frank] And I'll see you soon my dear.

[Rhonda] Alright, bye!

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian is In. A Podcast for the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit NYPL.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius, and Rhonda Evans.