Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Happy New Year! Frank and Rhonda kick off 2021 by...being Frank and Rhonda. How's that, you say? An hour of musical theater references, interesting books, and great conversation! 

Frank, while helping a patron find science books through NYPL's Shelf Help service, found a book of his own he wanted to read: The Alchemy of Us by Ainissa Ramirez. 

In The Alchemy of Us, scientist and science writer Ainissa Ramirez examines eight inventions—clocks, steel rails, copper communication cables, photographic film, light bulbs, hard disks, scientific labware, and silicon chips—and reveals how they shaped the human experience. Ramirez tells the stories of the woman who sold time, the inventor who inspired Edison, and the hotheaded undertaker whose invention pointed the way to the computer. She describes, among other things, how our pursuit of precision in timepieces changed how we sleep; how the railroad helped commercialize Christmas; how the necessary brevity of the telegram influenced Hemingway's writing style; and how a young chemist exposed the use of Polaroid's cameras to create passbooks to track black citizens in apartheid South Africa. These fascinating and inspiring stories offer new perspectives on our relationships with technologies. (Publisher summary)

Rhonda wanted to read fiction, so she picked up the Pulitzer Prize winning The Nickel Boys  by Colson Whitehead.  The novel was one of the past picks of our Virtual Book Club in partnership with WNYC. You can find the book discussion on this page.)

When Elwood Curtis, a black boy growing up in 1960s Tallahassee, is unfairly sentenced to a juvenile reformatory called the Nickel Academy, he finds himself trapped in a grotesque chamber of horrors. Elwood&;s only salvation is his friendship with fellow delinquent Turner, which deepens despite Turner's conviction that Elwood is hopelessly naive, that the world is crooked, and that the only way to survive is to scheme and avoid trouble. As life at the Academy becomes ever more perilous, the tension between Elwood's ideals and Turner's skepticism leads to a decision whose repercussions will echo down the decades. (Publisher summary)

Next week Frank and Rhonda will be reading one of the books on our 125 NYC Books We Love list. Hope you have a chance to read it, too!

The Stories of John Cheever by John Cheever

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Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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How to listen to The Librarian Is In

[Music]

[Frank] Howdy neighbor and welcome to the Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda. And did you know where howdy neighbor is from? Howdy neighbor, happy harvest, may your 40 acres soon be fields of clover.

[Rhonda] Oh okay, okay, okay.

[Frank] You're a musical person.

[Rhonda] I know you said 40 acres. So, I don't know, tell me.

[Frank] Oh God, the audience is going to be like whatever. It's Judy Garland from Summer Stock, a movie called Summer Stock.

[Rhonda] Oh, I've heard of Summer Stock. I'm not familiar with the songs. So, when you said 40 acres, I thought it might have to do something with like black people. [laughter]. Well, I was like.

[Frank] Well, that's interesting. I mean that's an interesting thing because it's true. May your 40 acres soon be fields of clover. I wonder if, because 40 acres and a mule.

[Rhonda] Yeah, because that's what I thought.

[Frank] Was the prominent [inaudible]

[Rhonda] I was going to say something like, I don't know I was trying to think of like an older black musical and then I just gave up.

[Frank] I wonder if, that's an interesting thing, if that was the standard of farms and or if was a sort of I don't know sketchy reference from the song writers for a white musical basically.

[Rhonda] That's a great question. I don't know.

[Frank] See.

[Rhonda] I mean because that was the first thing that I thought of but maybe there is some kind of larger farming context to 40 acres.

[Frank] That's a very interesting thing because I could have sang it as a, just, I didn't even think about the words. And then when you commented on it I realized yes that's a specific detail that does have historical resonance and wonder what that. You see there's a whole story in the writing of that song probably. Well, if anyone out there knows about it let us know.

[Rhonda] Exactly, let us know.

[Frank] I just went with my musical instincts and should I say prodigious talents.

[Rhonda] When you say howdy neighbor and I was also thinking Mr. Rogers. I had lots of things going on.

[Frank] Wow that's such an inspiration to me Rhonda. [laughing]

[Rhonda] I know.

[Frank] Hardly. Well, I just, you know, I didn't know that was going to pop out of my mouth because I was sort of like half dead with, I don't know, just life, half dead with life when we started recording and so howdy neighbor came out which, I guess, made me happier.

[Rhonda] That does make, you know, saying howdy neighbor, greeting someone.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] I can see how that can kind of like uplift your spirits, but you know it's a new year which is a little, you know, kind of exciting. We'll see, I hope.

[Frank] I think everybody, the thing about that is that everybody is sort of very careful about saying hah it's a new year everything's going to change like being very wary about that. Just sort of be a little vigilant.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because we don't know. Even though as I said like the Spring is sort of this point and time that, because our library renovation which should be complete. My library Jefferson Market and just in my head the completion of the library in the Spring and the world and everything will burst into song and we really will be like howdy neighbor, happy harvest.

[Rhonda] I know the community is going to be so excited when Jefferson Market opens up again.

[Frank] I hope so. However, I realize that our beautiful second floor which is really the showplace of the library because of various permutations of the renovation and pandemic will have been closed for over two years by the time it opens in the Spring.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] I know. I should have took pictures of that room if people don't know it. It's so beautiful with stain glass windows and high ceilings and lots of books and lovely tables. But yes you know whatever it is, it is. I'm going to hopefully enter into with renewed energy and see what the next phase of library world will be which [inaudible] question to itself because I mean this is an interesting thing. You know, all the prognosticating articles and information we take in about what's happening right now about all industries and people's work and people's lives. Like how everyone says oh it's definitely changed because of this but like how it will actually manifest is to be seen and what will stay from this time, what will fall away, what will return, what won't return. And that's probably the most exhausting and frustrating part of it is that we just can't say oh well A follows B, or you know what I mean, ABC, and his happens. We don't really know because we haven't been through something like this. So, but you learn not to really think that way you just have to sort of keep your passions in line and hopefully they manifest. Actually, the book I read has somewhat to do with this or [inaudible] relating things like I always do.

[Rhonda] No, I'm intrigued. Because I mean things are definitely going to change but you know and then some things will stay the same, so.

[Frank] Wow, Rhonda, you just summed it up.

[Rhonda] I just summed it up. Some things will change, some will stay the same.

[Frank] Well, I mean you're right. I mean, I guess the specifics we will discover but yes it's an interesting, frustrating and maybe heartbreaking time for some people. So.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] I don't want to choose one adjective over another because everyone is having various experiences with this and we're not even saying the name good. Anyway, so how are you otherwise or is that a silly question?

[Rhonda] You know, the holidays is always an interesting time because it can be you know really, really nice but also can be kind of stressful. So, sometimes like right after the holidays just like a little bit of release of kind of all the stress and then the end of year. So, probably just like everyone else just taking it day by day.

[Frank] Yeah. Holidays aren't stressful for me anymore because a lot of the stressors of family and stuff don't really exist anymore so isn't this depressing. [laughter]. I mean I usually look forward to time off and I love New York during the holidays because it's empty and now it's quiet and empty in lots of other ways. So, I don't know whatever. It doesn't have to dig deep in that. It's just everyone has their emotions and holidays can be joyous certainly. So, I just watched a bunch of movies, so I don't think I even remember. You know.

[Rhonda] Well, it was an escape.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah, I guess it was. So, yeah, but I guess we've been doing some reading as well which has been challenging just focusing sometimes.

[Rhonda] Oh yeah.

[Frank] I know signing off the last time off tape or whatever we had both eluded that you were reading a fiction book, I believe, and I had said oh my God because I was reading and now have read a nonfiction book which I don't often read. I was just sort of in a mood for like real people going through life and what that was about. I just wanted to someone read about people that actually existed and facts that were hopefully divined by the author and displaced accurately or as accurately as possible or accurately as we can. And you know and read something like that. So, it was a whimsical choice that I made. So, I just [inaudible] book come across. I was actually doing a something the library has which is called the Shelf Help. Are you involved with that?

[Rhonda] Yeah. Well, the research libraries are not because we don't circulate our books but I'm definitely familiar with Shelf Help which I think is amazing, but you work on that. You should tell everyone.

[Frank] Yeah exactly. It has actually turned out to be really cool. They developed it and it's fantastic. It sort of like takes the place of browsing because we still don't have browsing yet in the branch libraries. It's just picking up [inaudible] and checking them out and skedaddling. So, you can't really browse or linger. So, Shelf Help is this thing where you can fill out a little form about books you like, the last books you read, for children as well as adults and leave it in a little tray and the librarians will, you can do it online too, and the librarians at that location will collect five books, five titles that we think you might be interested in which can be very challenging. It's sort of like one of the most, at least for me, like anxiety making because you want it to be right. And some people will write like I love romance and you know there's so many different kinds of romances. So, it's like what kind of romance. Like regency, [inaudible] romance that kind of thing. So, but then I discovered it is fun just to sort of go with something I think they might like. And some of the feedback we got is like oh yeah two of the books you picked I read already which, you know, is okay. It's really like I said browsing. So, you get five books. It doesn't mean you're forced to read all five. Please, it's very much a selection of book that we think you might like and some you might like and some you don't. And some people will check out like oh I'm going to check out four of these this other one not so interested or I've read, whatever. So, someone had requested science, new science, and that's all they said. So, I was sort of thinking about it, looking around on the shelves, thinking because I often don't read about science. Are you a science person?

[Rhonda] Well for a long time I was really interested in space. So, I was reading books by like Neil deGrasse Tyson. He wrote the book Death by Blackhole which is like a really, I mean it's still you know a little over my head, but it is a really great introduction to kind of like the planets and astrophysics. So, in terms of science I definitely had a phase where I was obsessed with like the planets and outer space and the cosmos.

[Frank] Oh, cool. I had not read a lot and actually this book is a jumping off for the author about when she was an undergrade, science projects could be very dry and almost drove her away. She actually says in the preface that science classes in college are designed to weed out the sort of not so interested because they're so challenging and dry and laborious. So, her goal was to write a book on science that everybody could read and that, of course, appeals to me because I'm like hey, don't get too technical on me.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And also, the title of the book appeals to me because it has a sociological historical aspect to it too like how science and human life interacts. Like how science impacts their day-to-day life. So, I guess I'll launch in. The title of it is, The Alchemy of Us. The Alchemy of Us, How Humans and Matter Transformed one another, by Ainissa Ramirez and like when I saw the subtitle I was like how humans and matter transformed one another. I thought that was sort of interesting. So, in my search for recommending books for someone in the library I found a book for myself. So, I read it and Ainissa Ramirez is a materials scientist which sort of lies between like physics and chemistry apparently. And it deals with the actual stuff of usually solids of what everything is sort of made of. And she was interested in actually, she became passionate because she was one of those kids who had questions when she was younger about like why is gum chewy. Like why do rubber soles on our shoes feel comfortable? Like what makes these things? Like what makes these things that impact our daily life the actual objects. So, it's processed like chemistry like I said nettles, polymers, plastics, things like that. So, it's objects and materials. We are living in a material world. She actually mentions Madonna and.

[Rhonda] [inaudible] I knew that song.

[Frank] Yeah she writes like very excessively because it's like I said science and so at one point she does say that as is as that. She said something like she is very funny. She can write very funny. She said as that sage of the 20th century said yes we are living in a material world. I was like well she shoves out Madonna as the sage of the times. I should say there's an extensive bibliography at the back of this book and there is also, there's no footnotes which might bother people but there's notes at the end which I actually like. This is an interesting [inaudible] about what we like, how we like a book formatted. I find footnotes literally at the bottom of a page distracting. Like if I.

[Rhonda] I do to. You're tempted to read them.

[Frank] Right and I'm thinking if someone wanted to include what's in the footnote that badly they would have incorporated it into the text, so you don't need it right away. It's something you can refer to later, but the footnote then sort of dumps you out of the text, puts you down at the bottom of the page and you [inaudible] and you're like okay. I'm mean some people might prefer that I think, I'm sure they do. She has her notes, not footnotes, but notes at the end about each chapter and page. So, I sort of like that. It also has the classic format of the pictures are of things she talks about are in the middle of the book.

[Rhonda] Oh, in color?

[Frank] [inaudible] I mean I grew up on books like that. Like instead of like when you're reading and then you have a picture on the next page, when you're in like the middle of the book, you suddenly encounter the 20 page picture section which sort of gave me pleasure. [

[Rhonda]] It is kind of fun to kind, because it's something you kind of look forward to of getting to that section of the book with all the photographs.

[Frank] I just thought it was well, it's MIT press, very impressive, right. So, it was just a well-made book. It's a well-made book structurally and visually. So, anyway the Alchemy of Us she has basically eight chapters or so of sort of broadly titled. Like one chapter is called Interact, another one is called Capture, another one is called Share. And within those chapters she'll discuss like the material, a metal, a mineral as something natural that turned into an invention and then how that invention impacted our lives. So, on the chapter I said on Interact it's really about clocks which starts with quartz, quartz crystals that eventually were developed. There is some science in the book. It's not like overkill science at least for a lame person. But even the simplified explanation that were sometimes like eye glazing for me I was like huh. Like the quartz vibrates at 100,000 vibrations a second and that delivers accurate time. I'm like well if you say so, [laughter]. I mean I'm shocked I even remember that, but you know that I part I was like I appreciate you Ainissa Ramirez for informing me about science but I'm going to wait for the history and the cultural contents.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But there are science people who want to know these things and it's certain a jumping off point to discover more specifically. So, the chapter on clocks with the quartz has its basic end springs, middle springs as its basic component that gave us time. And then, of course, she talks about time as well some stories we know like how time fiddles with our sleep. Did you know, I think you might have known this, somehow I knew this fact, that up until clocks really became prevalent, you know, like late 1800s, people slept in two shifts. Like they slept for a couple of hours, then woke up in the middle of the night sort of puttered around the house without really doing too much. Like did a little housework, maybe read a book and then went back to sleep. They were commonly known to sleep in two shifts. And the second part was called second sleep.

[Rhonda] I don't think I knew that. Is that because our body is supposed to kind of naturally do that?

[Frank] Well yeah. She talks about circadian rhythms and how that's sort of like a natural thing that happens before we had clocks to sort of dictate when we went to bed and when we got up. Also, in a later chapter she talks about light, light bulbs and how light sort of impinged on that too that we were able to with light stay up until 2 o'clock in the morning like I do and go to sleep rather than sort of using the sun as your guide.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Another parenthetical [inaudible]. What?

[Rhonda] Yeah like people used to just when it was dark that's when you went to bed.

[Frank] Yeah and rose with the sun. I mean up until clocks sort of ingrained themselves in life different cities in the same state different towns had different times. So, if you were traveling like by stagecoach which could take days and days through a state you would have different time zones within that state because everybody, sort of, calibrated their time by high noon. So, obviously the sun moves, so like every town would have a different time. So, like it's 11:57 which is noon in one town and then 12:04 in another town. It was like no one was on sync.

[Rhonda] What!

[Frank] And that's another thing that changed human life when everyone became in sync.

[Rhonda] In sync.

[Frank] I don't know any Insync songs so I'm not going to sing it.

[Rhonda] This is wild. You're blowing my mind here with these facts.

[Frank] Well, let me blow it further because in terms of getting traditional time she then drills down into after she talks about the science of creating time about certain stories like the one I just told about time. And one of them is there was a woman name Ruth Belville in England because Greenwich Mean Time was the sort of center of the correct time of the world. And she had a job and her daughter after her or her mother before her. But for like you know a good 80 years she would go with her clock she named Arnold, her watch and go to Greenwich Meantime Office and synchronize her watch and then she would go back into town London, all over London, walking to different establishments who would pay her to deliver the correct time.

[Rhonda] What!

[Frank] That was her job so everybody could synchronize. She would just literally go to like Mr. Jenson's Grocery Store and then she would go to, you know, Abbey's Bar and Grill and give them the correct time. And it was important for a lot of establishments like especially the bar because there were liquor laws where you couldn't sell booze before or after a certain time and they needed to know exactly what time it was and that was her job. Because they couldn't access actual time. There wasn't a phone you could call for the correct.

[Rhonda] That's what I was going to say remember there used to be a number you could call.

[Frank] Right, which is a little bit later than 1880.

[Rhonda] Yeah, I remember that.

[Frank] So, while you stew on that and I mean there's eight chapters like I said I can't obviously go through all of them, that she gets into steel. I found the steel chapter really compelling which was about creating railroads. I mean first of all railroads in the 1800s were made of iron which I found out scientifically and she gives detail iron decays after two years or so.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] But the wheel last 18 years, like a generation. So, their goal was to find the perfect recipe for steel and scientist all over the world were trying to discover it. And it's like as far as my feeble brain can like think of like it's all about like the measurement of different mixtures. Like iron, plus carbon equals steel but you have to get the perfect recipe of it. If it's too much it'll be brittle. If it's too little it'll be gooey. You know what I mean but then they know about the molecules not then, but they knew about more like measurements and beakers and heating it and cooling it. Adding air, adding water, you know, like cooking.

[Rhonda] Right, so [inaudible]

[Frank] So, steel was a big deal and what's interesting so that gave rise to the railroads. And one of the stories she tells is that when the railroads occurred it was a big connector obviously and then the whole country could sort of partake of what other parts of the country had to offer. So, like if Ohio had a flour industry, they could supply flour to the country which might not have been as readily available in Florida. Florida would have their own export that could go to other parts of the country. So, you could like sample Creole cuisine or make it in Louisiana, you know, because the railroads can deliver all these products all over the country. And that became something more uniting between the United States which occurring after the Civil War sorely needed that kind of uniting again. And one of the first things that did do this was President Lincoln's assassination. Like the country was so grieved at least the North and wanted to be a part of his funeral but if you lived in Seattle you couldn't go to his burial place in Illinois I believe or to DC for a funeral, I mean that wasn't possible, practically. So, the trains that were starting up certainly around that time was the first time they had the President's body sort of shift cross country on this train and people would come and gather at the train tracks or in the station or if they were in a big enough city where the train stopped, and they could view his body. And it became like a giant event. People would travel for days just to get a glimpse of the train carrying his body. I mean that is a cultural thing that you can contemplate in itself about a daily life where it would take such a journey to witness such a momentous moment, you know. Now we like get pictures transmitted in our phone right away. It's like we don't even think about going to the funeral necessarily. You can and I'm sure some people would, but they wouldn't even have seen his face in pictures because photography wasn't as predominant, yet which is another chapter in the book. I just realized I was like what am I going to talk about and then I started talking about [inaudible]

[Rhonda] You had so much.

[Frank] Now I'm very upset because I want to share so many chapters, so many good stories actually. I should just say that she writes about anecdotes and stories and details of these inventor's personal lives to very much humanize inventions and the inventors with all their biases and problems. And also, the names we know like Edison or Samuel Morse there are other people, of course, at the same time were coming up with these ideas too. It wasn't just one sole inventor in a little attic room. There were people thinking about this all over the world but then one ae becomes attached to the fame of that invention. And she talks about how other people were thinking about it. Some people get the glory, some people don't. I mean there's later a whole story about the inventor of photography between two people who had a 20-year war about the patent for it.

[Rhonda] Ooh.

[Frank] It's really interesting. Oh my god just so many stories. I mean one thing I will say though, I'll just say one final one in the Alchemy of Us by Ainissa Ramirez. The photography one was sort of cool because there were facts I did not know about like Kodak developed when they started developing color pictures in the 50s, black families complained because when you get your student picture taken in color at that time black mothers particularly were like this is not a good photography of my kid you can't see their face.

[Rhonda] Right, yeah.

[Frank] It's a dark face. And she goes on to discuss how there was a color palette that was developed that all color photographers used, and it was basically a white woman's face with like blue eyes and colorful pillows and like they would take the picture and match the controls to that standard, like an eye chart in an eye doctor's office. It was the standard. Clearly biased and Kodak didn't really listen to the complaints. You know when they changed their tune? when, what else, money came into [inaudible]

[Rhonda] Right, of course.

[Frank] Furniture makers who produced dark wood furniture and chocolatiers who produced chocolate complained that they couldn't get definition in their darker colors and then Kodak was like oh okay we'll figure it out. Thanks.

[Rhonda] Interesting.

[Frank] And then that segued into a great chapter and then I'm going to shut-up about Polaroid who piggy-backing on this, you know their instant photography, the Polaroid pictures, developed a button that you could push that would be a brightener to darker features of any sort, face, object, whatever. And that brightener button on Polaroid which would give instant pictures usually they had a function called Polaroid ID which would deliver two pictures was appropriated or used by South Africa to track black people's locations in South Africa. One picture was given to them in a passbook which was a book they had to show wherever they were to prove who they were and what their deal was and another was on file with the government. And when two Polaroid workers, two black workers, a chemist and a photographer found out about this, they organized a coalition to battle Polaroid to stop selling to South Africa. They lost their jobs eventually, but they eventually won after seven years of fighting where Polaroid divested from South Africa.

[Rhonda] That's amazing. That is a story I didn't know.

[Frank] Mic drop, thank you.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] So, the book the Alchemy of Us has a lot of stories like that about different inventions and then that whole story about Polaroid starts with like the object, the materials, that she is the material scientist is interested of filaments and minerals that went into the creation of the photographic image. So, you get science, you get social, you get history and then you got some great anecdotes for your next cocktail party in 2023.

[Rhonda] [laughter] exactly and it'll be that long. And it's interesting because you still hear those stories about, kind of like what you were saying with the photograph and not recognizing the black people, you still hear those stories. I remember they were saying recently like one of the self-driving cars that could kind of stop when they saw or detected a person, like it wasn't detecting black people, you know, so that was a problem obviously. And then there are other kind of technology issues that I've heard that are similar to that. So, that's still happening but it's also really interesting, you know, just thinking about the science behind all the things that we use, and we access, and you know we just like myself it's just here and I enjoy it, my phone, my food that is not in season. You know, you don't really think about often what goes into these things, what goes into creating these things, bringing these things to us, so. It's always good to have a good science writer who can make it accessible.

[Frank] Yeah, she's really good. She has a great style, very slightly formal which feels very respectful but there's a sort of warmth to it when she tells the stories. It's I great, I think it would be great for young adults to as an introduction to scientific discovery. But just one thing about what you were saying is like it's true when you take something like photography in our dumb heads that don't know the science behind it, we would think you take a picture you get an accurate representation of whatever you took a picture of, right.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But we don't know necessarily that that picture had a lot of science into it that actually deliberately chooses some things to highlight and some things to don't. So, a picture is not just a mirror image of what you're looking at, it actually could be biased. Something you think that is not possibly to be biased is because of the science that went into it. Like you just said about the cars. I mean that's sort of a fascinating thing about we think oh well that's straightforward but it's not and that's what this book sort of digs into that not everything is just straightforward. I mean there's so many stories, a battle that was in the 1800s that killed so many people during the War of 1812. And at the time this battle was going on they had already signed in Europe the end of the War of 1812. So, that leads into the telegraph discussion. If there was the capability of quick communication they wouldn't have had that battle because the war was over. [inaudible] they didn't know. It took three weeks for a message to get from one place to another because it was horseback, went over the ocean because they were in Europe. So, a whole group of soldiers were killed needlessly because the war had already ended but they didn't know. I mean wow can you imagine that today like you know how quick information goes.

[Rhonda] Yeah how fast things. I mean that could be just the way that communication has changed. I feel like we could talk about that.

[Frank] Forever.

[Rhonda] For days.

[Frank] Oh, I mean don't get me started she has a chapter on the Internet.

[Rhonda] You may have to do a part 2 on this Frank.

[Frank] Aww, thank you. You want me back. You really like me.

[Rhonda] Got that reference.

[Frank] [laughter] Ms. Sally Field.

[Rhonda] Sally Field Oscar.

[Frank] She was [inaudible]. I always hated that people made fun of her because she did come from the flying nun to an Oscar but anyways that's another story for another day.

[Rhonda] [laughter]. Story for another day.

[Frank] Rhonda you did read a book too I suppose.

[Rhonda] I did, I did. And I did read fiction. However, the fiction was based on actual events.

[Frank] Ah Rhonda.

[Rhonda] So, I know I kind of cheated, not really though but.

[Frank] [inaudible] research librarian, [inaudible].

[Rhonda] But I read The Nickel Boys by Colson Whitehead which was the 2019 Pulitzer Prize Winner for fiction. And, you know, it's not the, let me say prefaced this with two things. Number one, there is a really, really big twist at the end and I am going to do my best to try not to spoil the book, but I want to give fair warning that I might by accident. So, if you are planning to read The Nickel Boys and you don't want to hear the twist at the end then you may want to come back and listen to this part after you have read the book. And the second preface that I wanted to say was I just forgot, so I'm just going to go ahead and [laughter]. I had it at the top of my head. I forgot what I was going to say. So uhm.

[Frank] You forgot. It's Colson Whitehead, The Nickel Boys. Alright, now I want to know what you forgot.

[Rhonda] Yes I know I want to know what I forgot too. That was the first part that I was going to say was that that was the most important things that people, you know, should step away if they don't want it to be spoiled.

[Frank] What about if I don't want to hear it. I haven't read it yet.

[Rhonda] Okay, I'll do my best.

[Frank] You can talk to yourself. No actually it's okay. I think it's funny I forgot.

[Rhonda] That's an occupational hazard for you though Frank.

[Frank] Exactly I can take it. Dish it out. I can take it.

[Rhonda] You can't be insulated from the spoils.

[Frank] I respect you. If it happens, it happens.

[Rhonda] It happens but I'm going to do my best. So, the true, so I'm trying to think if I should start with. I'm just going to jump into the story and get to the kind of factual part later. But it takes place in 1960's Florida. So, we're in the South in the middle of the Civil Rights Movement and we start with the character of a teenage black boy name Elwood. And Elwood, you know, he lives, it's just him and his grandmother. His grandmother is a domestic worker in a hotel, and he is this character that you kind of get to realize early on as someone who is just really, really hopeful, optimistic to a fault. And his idol is Martin Luther King Junior, and his grandmother gives him this album of Martin Luther King Junior's speeches and he listens to them all the time. And he, you know, he is very aware in the Civil Rights Movement. He wants to go on marches, but he sees as it as like hopeful, like we can change things, we can make this world better. And you kind of get these little moments early on that should kind of crush his hopes and bring him kind of more towards a realistic point of view but he just remains hopeful. And one incident is he gets a job in the same hotel that his grandmother works in as a dishwasher. And he is the youngest person, because he is a teenager, and all the other dishwashers are also black men. And they say to him you know someone in one of these hotel rooms have let an entire set of encyclopedias. And he's really smart and really bright and loves to learn and he is fascinated. And this one guy says I really want these encyclopedia's and he's like I want them. And they said well why don't we have this dishwashing contest and whoever wins get the set of encyclopedias. So, they have this contest and it's like down to the last plate and he wins and he's so excited. He takes them home and he looks at the first one and it's amazing but then he realizes that it's like a dummy set. So, the only one that is real is the first one in the set and all the rest of them are just covers with nothing inside, just blank pages.

[Frank] Oh my god.

[Rhonda] So, you know, we kind of get this first sense of his hopes being crushed and then another moment is he also has a job as a stock boy in this store and he sees some of his kids in his neighborhood stealing. And usually, you know, the thing is just kind of look the other way, but he makes this big deal of stopping them and they kind of like beat him up and destroy his bike for being a snitch. So, he's always trying to do the right thing and it's just kind of he suffers for it. So, you know, we kind of get to know Elwood in this way as this kind of hopeful boy who always wants to do the right thing. Really just like a good kid and his teacher recognizes how bright he is and how what a good kid he is. And they say you know you can take college classes and you should go, and you should take classes at the local university and he's just so excited. And so, he goes to his first day and he's, you know, super excited and he is on his way and he's going to walk. And it's a long way home and this car stops and it's like, you know, a man in this really nice car and he says do you need a ride. He's like thank you so much that would be great. And it turns out.

[Frank] I'm sorry is that like explained as a common thing just to get into a stranger's car.

[Rhonda] I mean maybe in the 60s in the South they trusted people more. Of course, now we would say don't ever like just jump into a stranger's car, but I guess, you know, maybe at that time in that place it was.

[Frank] It wasn't like it was an aberration because suddenly it seems like uh oh this is the turning point.

[Rhonda] And this is the turning point.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] This is the uh oh part. This is the cautionary tell of do not get into a stranger's car.

[Frank] Oh no, okay.

[Rhonda] The guy is like a, you know, just normal guy and they're talking about, you know, going to school and the car gets pulled over. And it turns out that the car is stolen. And so, Elwood who did nothing but just take a ride get sentenced to juvenile institution, I believe, for like two years or something like that. And this is where the story takes place. So, he gets sent to Nickel Academy which is a reform school and kind of what happens at this reform school is pretty horrifying. That is what I was going to say. The thing that I was going to preface this with was if you are, this book has a lot of triggers in it, like there's a lot of kind of really violent moments and it's definitely not something you want to read if you are in the least way kind of depressed or anything like that. There's a lot of trauma in this book. So, he gets sent to this place called Nickel. And, you know, when he first gets there it's segregated right because it's the South, it's the 60s and there's a school part for the white kids and there's a school part for the black kids and there's a Puerto Rican kid who kinds of keeps going. They don't know where to put him, so they send him back and forth. But so, they're in this school and you know at first, of course, as always he kind of hopeful. And he's like okay you know you can get out early. You just have to get these like points, you know. If they recognize you doing the right thing, if you spend a certain amount of time staying out of trouble, you can kind of get these points to get out of the school and also you know you can go to class. But Elwood, you know, kind of begins to learn very quickly, you know, how horrible, I guess, this place is. And the first thing that happens is, you know, he goes to class and basically it's not really school at all. They're not teaching them anything and, you know, basically just people are goofing off and then another thing is that he sees this boy getting beat up in the bathroom. And he tries to stop the fight and, you know, one of the people who works there comes in and sees he three boys and all of them automatically get into trouble. And here's like the big turning point kind of when you see how horrible this place is, is that he gets put into, I forget what they called it. I believed they called it the white house. I don't have the name but it's basically this place where no one ever wants to get sent because the way that he is basically tortured for breaking up this fight is just kind of like mind blowing.

[Frank] And this is based on a true institution.

[Rhonda] This is based on a true institution. And so, for breaking up this fight, he is just physically destroyed, like on the brink of death. And Colson Whitehead, it's interesting because he doesn't describe the, he does, you know, he gives you an idea of what's being done to him but you don't get a lot of detail about the violence but the way that you kind of you get the reaction of Elwood and the other kind of little details he puts in, you get the sense of how violent this act is without actual kind of gory details which I thought was, you know, just really skillful of him.

[Frank] Even more impactful because it's the unknown but you get his reaction, not sort of what actually they're doing to him. Is that what you're saying?

[Rhonda] Yeah exactly. Like you don't get gory details.

[Frank] Your imagination makes it worse probably.

[Rhonda] Exactly yeah exactly.

[Frank] Which is what he wanted to do obviously.

[Rhonda] Right. And it's interesting because Elwood even with that, you know, he still holds on to these beliefs. And other things kind of happen in the school. So, he has this friend who kind of becomes his best friend whose name is Turner. And Turner is almost the exact opposite of Elwood. Turner is a survivalist. He is a realist. He is just saying you know basically you know you do what you have to do to get through this without getting hurt, right. Like you stay out of people's business. You don't try to stop fights. You don't try to help other people. You just do what you have to do to survive. And they kind of become best friends and through each of their viewpoints you kind of see what Nickel is like. And kind of another story that happens here is that every year they had this huge boxing match at Nickel between two boys who are in the school and this one that they speak about is a black one and there's a white one. And Elwood and Turner overhear that the people want to fix the fight. They want to make sure that the white student wins over the black student. And they tell the black student you know you're supposed to throw the fight in a certain round, like the third round. And so, the kid, you know, goes in and he's agreed to do that but for some reason, you know, he's just, his body was kind of stronger than his mind and he ends actually winning the fight even though he didn't mean to. And they kill him. They murder this kid for not throwing this fight. And again, they do it in a really, really horrific way. And so, Elwood is kind of seeing all this and he again thinks like oh I can really change things. Maybe if I get the truth out, so he kind of starts writing these letters to like newspapers, like anonymously. Different things like that and he tries to get his grandmother to get word out for him. But she's smart, she is like no you need to stay out of this. And so, Elwood and Turner get this job of going around the neighborhood and basically selling things that should be going to the Nickel Boys, to people in the community and the Nickel Academy leases out their labor. So, they're going around and Elwood kind of tells Turner like I want to get the word out about like how bad this place is. Turner is saying, you know, no you should just again just do what you got to do to get out of here. So, the inspectors come to the school as they do every year and Elwood has written all of these things up. All of these notes of everything wrong that he has seen and says I'm going to give it to these people. And Turner is saying don't. No, no, no don't do it.

[Frank] Why wouldn't Turner want him to do it?

[Rhonda] Because Turner knows that there, even if they don't find out exactly whose told that there's going to be punishment.

[Frank] So, he's basically like the institution will always win, you just have to survive, and Elwood is like thinking again optimistically that we can make change.

[Rhonda] Exactly. And Turner is like if they find out that it's you specifically, he's going to kind of have the same fate as the kid in the boxing match. Like they have actively murdered children in this school.

[Frank] Oh my god.

[Rhonda] Like that's not unknown and he's saying that is what is going to happen to you. And so, what's interesting is kind of like in the middle of this story we switch time periods. So, then we see Elwood as an adult, and he's moved to New York. Obviously he's traumatized. He's kind of jaded. We know longer see this young man who really wants to go to college and really wants to have this like great life. He is able to kind of build up his own, I don't know, business and have a relationship but you just see him as a traumatized man. And, you know, you begin to kind of see both sides like what it was like for him as a child and what it was like for him as an adult. And then this is kind of where the twist comes in and I'm trying to figure out like ah do I say, do I not say it. I don't know.

[Frank] Well, let's take a poll. Everybody out there should we say it or not. You might as well say it. I don't know I mean I want to know. Does it have to do with Turner?

[Rhonda] It does.

[Frank] Oh, I sort of like Turner.

[Rhonda] Well, okay I'm going to say it everyone. Alright, so I'm giving you fair warning I'm going to say what happens.

[Frank] [inaudible].

[Rhonda] So, what happens is that Elwood and Turner, Turner kind of again changed his mind for some reason and agrees to help Elwood tell the people about what's happening. So, he takes all of Elwood's writings and he hands them over and he hands them over. And when the people in the institution find out obviously they know that there's going to be trouble and they find out that's it's Turner and Elwood. And Turner said you and I have to escape. So, they make this big escape from Nickel. They basically almost like, you know, like where you think about the runaway slaves, like an underground railroad, like literally it's like that. Like, you know, they have this plan, and they leave and they have bikes. You know it's a whole plan, but the people catch up with them. And they have shot guns and one of these boys does not make it. Well, I guess I should just say it. So, it's so hard to speak about this. But anyway, sadly it's Elwood and you don't think it's going to be Elwood.

[Frank] Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry because you pick up in the future with Elwood.

[Rhonda] Exactly. So, what happens is Turner whose always kind of living in fear from having escaped decides to take on Elwood's identity.

[Frank] Oh interesting.

[Rhonda] And he lives his life in the future, and you don't really find out that Elwood doesn't make it until the very end because once you switch over to Elwood as an adult or Turner as an adult it kind of goes back and forth in time.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] And you don't really find this out until the end. But he kind of does this and you think he just does it to protect himself, but you also feel like he does this to really kind of honor him and that he did really admire the way that Elwood thought. And what happens is in the very end he does decide to go back and kind of testify against the people in the school because the story is starting to kind of come out about how they treated people. And I'm going to try to wrap all this up. But, you know, it's just so many things in this to think about. One of the things I thought was just like how the community really actually participated and was complicit in this school. How they used their labor. How they, you know, coming to these fights and basically it was really just kind of the whole community that I believe was kind of implicit in this. And also, you know just the trauma that they have in this. And there was some criticism that I read about of kind of the women's role in this book. So, I thought that was interesting. And, of course, like you have the prison industrial complex part of it and how innocent people are often, especially young innocent black boys, are kind of you know have been put in these situations. But you know the final thing is, this was based on a real story which was the Dozier School in Florida. And a group of archaeologists who are working on the site of the school found basically a mass grave of boys and that's kind of when a group of the survivors of former students came out and began to really speak about their experiences at this school and the torture and the kind of slave labor work and what was happening. And Colson Whitehead had heard about this story he interviewed some of the survivors and this is what he has based his book on. And a lot of it is kind of really accurate to what happened to them. It really was just like a horrible, horrible place and, you know, there really has not been a lot of accountability yet of what has happened to these people. But you know again these men are kind of walking around with all of this trauma. And the story, the book the Nickel Boys actually is not long. You can almost call it a novella but there's just so much really just packed into it. And, again, I feel like we could spend an hour kind of just going through each of the issues that this short novel brings up. But I spoiled it.

[Frank] I know. Well, I sort of, I don't regret it. There's no regrets here.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] I know you can't resist.

[Rhonda] I know this story is hard to talk about without the spoiler.

[Frank] Colson Whitehead because I read his other books, his writing is so good that if you know that twists to read it still is a different experience. Like my fist has been in my mouth with my eyes wide for the last five minutes. They have been like what's it going to be like so many things, like I mean just even the core issue, like friendships between boys and two men is so affecting to me. Like I was thinking of A Little Life. I was thinking of I can't think of the other title of another book I read by a French author. Lie with Me. Just you know having that deep friendship I mean I felt like tearful when you're talking about the switch and how you set up Turner and what Turner was like. There's sort of that a trope of like you know the innocent and the sort of street savvy and how they become close and bond is just so poignant.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Beautiful book.

[Rhonda] It's sad.

[Frank] Very sad.

[Rhonda] But yeah.

[Frank] Wow. You're good honey. I want you to read bedtime stories to me.

[Rhonda] Sure anytime.

[Frank] Not painful ones but.

[Rhonda] Just give me call.

[Frank] I know right. I'm like Rhonda. You're like what's upon time there was a little Prince named Frankie [laughter]

[Rhonda] Frankie. Okay you got it.

[Frank] An elderly person trying to like acting like a little boy.

[Rhonda] We should tell them what we're reading next.

[Frank] Yeah well thanks for that Rhonda. So, two interesting books this episode I think. Oh, so for the next book we're going to go back to the New York Public Library's books of 125 New York City books we love. And this one is a classic of short stories. The stories with John Cheever which I really don't know a lot about. So, we'll newly discover a new story. Then on January 28th we will discuss the stories of John Cheever. Rhonda you'll read a couple. I'll read a couple. We'll see if they read the same. We'll see what conclusions we can come to. We'll see what kind of experience the stories of John Cheever is.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So, I know a little bit about him but not much. So, I'm looking forward to that. Hopefully, everybody out there is too, read the stories of John Cheever and we'll keep working on our New York Public Library list about books we love and see where we go from there. So, it's been a pleasure Rhonda.

[Rhonda] As always, exactly.

[Frank] Oh thanks. Hopefully again even reading the book I read about how materials change I was like just the being in person aspect it's been so long seen I've seen you or talked to you in person or anybody really without a mask. It's just [inaudible] things. I mean it just feels so different. But anyway, hey one step at a time, one day at a time. [sigh]. What an emotional rollercoaster, okay.

[Rhonda] It was.

[Frank] Thank you. So, thanks everybody for listening to the Librarian Is In. Hope you got some good recommendations. I can't stop talking. I'm going to shut up. Bye everybody.

[Rhonda] See you next time.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to the Librarian Is In. A podcast for the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and a leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play or send us an email at podcast@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your host are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.