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Happy almost New Year! Over here in NYPL podcastland, we're eagerly awaiting 2021. Frank and Rhonda closed out this year of The Librarian Is In by chatting about resolutions (or the lack of) for the new year and the novel Bodega Dreams. We hope you'll join us next year as our hosts make their way through the NYC Books We Love list. This week they read...

Bodega Dreams by Ernesto Quiñonez

Chino, a promising young latino, finds himself drawn into the dangerous world of Willy Bodega, ruler of Spanish Harlem, and torn between his loyalties to his pregnant Pentecostal wife and the promises of the barrio ringleader. (Publisher summary)

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I am and remain Frank.

[Rhonda] And I am and remain Rhonda.

[Frank] We shall persist. [Singing] We shall persist. So it's, I guess it's the new year.

[Rhonda] I know, I feel like, I don't know, it's such a good thing. I feel like this new year, probably more people are excited about the changing of the year than probably any other year in history. Everybody's just like please, 2021 come.

[Frank] Exactly. And it's, you just made me realize when you were saying that like how-- and how very human it is. We cling to sort of, you could say arbitrary markers. Like a calendar year ending. Just to sort of give us something that seems concrete to hope for. Because of course, I was going to be like do you have any resolutions, darling? I mean like, you know, what one says at the new year. Because it's sort of like start, in quotes, "over." I'm just glad that the solstice has passed, the longest day of the year. I mean the shortest day of the year. Yeah. And now it'll start-- the days will get longer and longer and longer. So I'm glad we passed that mark. Because getting dark at 4.30 does not work for me.

[Rhonda] Yeah, it's like 6 o'clock I want to go to bed. Last night, I'm like, can I go to bed now? It's still 6.30. [Inaudible] these long days, I want the sunlight.

[Frank] Exactly. And so that feels like, you know, burgeoning hope in that the days get longer, the-- even though technically we're just getting into winter, the-- it's looking towards spring, I don't know. It just seems like we passed a hurdle, more than the new year. But, do you have any resolutions or any thoughts about your own personal new year? Share personal things with us, would you?

[Rhonda] Resolutions, let me think. You know, and it's funny because usually you see online and things everybody's posting all these what their new year things are going to be. And I haven't seen any of that. Because I think people are just trying to get through this year. But I think what I want to do in the new year is just focus on gratitude. You know? They say like if you wake up every morning and you kind of like go through a list of things that you're grateful for, that can really, that's almost like, you know, meditation. How that can kind of change your attitude and perspective. So I think that might be something that I'm going to try to do, you know, start the day with a gratitude list and kind of go through all the things that are-- that I can be grateful for. So that's something I think about. What about you, Frank?

[Frank] Yeah, I know, I know, I don't want to presume, but I know that when you do go through what you're grateful for, you'll be like yeah, Frank. Frank.

[Rhonda] That's exactly.

[Frank] That will be the first thing that comes to your mind. About time you showed me some gratitude. Dear. Actually, it's not the opposite, it's probably the same thing. But it's the most probably common resolution ever. I really, I realized when I talked before about creating a display like just hammering nails and moving, I need to move more. I need to move more. I just feel like a flubby flabberooni. And I just want to-- not for anything aesthetic. I'm not looking for a beauty contest goal. But I just want to feel like I've expended physical energy a little bit more. Because I've been too sedentary I think. So it's not like read more, we could certainly do that. But it's just like its counterpart, you know, feed the mind, feed the body.

[Rhonda] Feed the body. Moving more, definitely. Yeah, that's definitely going to be part of my goal-- hopefully, well like you said, we're just getting into winter. But being able to go outside some.

[Frank] Yeah, I like jumping around, but I can't really do that in a New York apartment because the neighbors below would not appreciate it. So I think I have to figure out something else like I can do in the apartment rather than going to a gym, of course. But you know, I'll figure it out. It's figure-out-able. It's one of the figure-out-able problems, you know?

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] So, enough about us. Says the world listening. We read a book. We read a book together.

[Rhonda] "Bodega Dreams."

[Frank] By Ernesto Quinonez.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which is 20-- 20 years old? I think it was published in 2000?

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] And it's been, it's on the New York Public Library's 125 New York City Books We Love. Which is a New York City specific book list. And we're going to read from that list as we were reading from the 125 Books We Love list before. This book has been on my radar for years. I mean, it's actually catalogued as young adult, did you know that?

[Rhonda] I did not know that. And I-- I'm surprised, I mean, not that I don't think that young adults could read it. But when I read it, I guess it didn't feel like a YA book? Maybe I don't know exactly what a YA book feels-- I've read enough YA I feel like I think I should know. But. I don't know, did you feel like you were reading a young adult book?

[Frank] It's funny, not like, we're more adults, true. We need to get more children's people on here or something. We'll work that out. But.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] I think if I didn't-- if I didn't see that it was catalogued young adult I, you know, I would have thought it wasn't. Because non-young adult people like us, like I think-- well, I'll speak for myself. I think I sometimes underestimate what a young adult person can take even though I was once one.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Like re-reading "Catcher in the Rye," I've told you this story before. Like when I re-read it, I read it at 15 and then I re-read it. And I was shocked as an adult how much cursing was in it. But at 15, I didn't even-- I, it wasn't the most notable thing about the book. It was just something I could take. But now as an adult, I was like ooh, they do curse a lot.

[Rhonda] And I think, you know, when I think of young adult books, I think of, and I could be completely wrong about this, but that the characters, like the main characters are young adults. And in this book, I mean, they're adults, I think. So. I don't know, I think that's kind of what threw me off too was that we're not reading about, you know, teenagers or tweens or even like 19 or 20 year olds. You know, these are adult characters that we're reading about. So. I don't know. That's what I think of when I think of young adult, that the characters are also young adults. Or young-- yeah.

[Frank] I feel like there was a very clear arc through the story, as we'll discuss. But Julio, or Chino, the main guy, who narrates the story, is 22. He's in college.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] He's in Hunter. I think it says it at some point he's 22. So they're young. But they are adults.

[Rhonda] He's very, you know, he's like got a baby on the way. He's young but he's living kind of like this very adult life.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, I don't know how-- well, it's not unusual.

[Rhonda] Because when I was 22, I definitely was not-- that was not on my mind. Like marriage and family, you know. It was like, I don't know.

[Frank] No, it wasn't on my mind either, certainly. And-- but I don't think it's that unusual for in the world for 22 year olds--

[Rhonda] No, not at all.

[Frank] To have a baby. But. So where to begin, "Bodega Dreams."

[Rhonda] Well we can start with where it is set. Which is Spanish Harlem. Which is important because again, it's the New York City Books We Love list. So it's in Spanish Harlem, which I guess for the non-New Yorkers is considered the east side of Harlem, where people consider the west side more the African American community until gentrification. But the east side of Harlem has always been considered Spanish Harlem because of the Spanish community there. So that's where-- and of course, the community is like a character in this book to me.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] You know, it's a very important part of-- this neighborhood is really important to the story.

[Frank] Yeah. It's east side of Manhattan from 96th Street to like 125th or so?

[Rhonda] Yeah. Farther up.

[Frank] I know that there's libraries in every community. There's a library on 96th Street and I knew the librarian there years ago. And she had talked a lot about the dividing line. And how 96th Street really divided you know, white Manhattan from Spanish Harlem. On that-- because it was on the east side, from Spanish so-called Manhattan. And that there was a very clear line. And like, you know, also like a-- I think it said in the book too, like you know, taking the 6. You know, all the white people get at 96, by 96th Street.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] You know, that trope, that common knowledge that you know that's going to happen. And--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But yes, it is definitely a community that is-- I actually love those parts of the book where they talked about where he-- Quinonez talked about the apartments and the street life. Both good and bad. Like you know, the dangers of it but also the community of it. And it also takes place in-- I think it takes place in the 90s.

[Rhonda] I think so, too. I think it's-- yeah, I was-- he doesn't say.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But you have to kind of put the clues together.

[Frank] Right, exactly.

[Rhonda] Of what, you know, was happening at the time. So I think you're right, I think it's like the late 90s.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] It takes place.

[Frank] Which, because written in 2000, I guess he was just writing about the recent past. But now it's like over 20 years ago.

[Rhonda] I know, gosh.

[Frank] But I mean they had cell phones, but they weren't like smart phones.

[Rhonda] Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that was interesting. Because that was one of the things that made me think about like when is this happening? Because these are young people and they don't have cell phones. So. Yeah. So I, yeah, so the late 90s, Spanish Harlem. And I thought the characters were really vibrant to me. I don't know, like I felt like I could see them and hear them in my head. I don't know if you felt the same way. But I just felt that they were very like alive to me.

[Frank] There was a vivaciousness, for sure. That leapt off the page. Especially with certain characters. But-- sorry. Julio, who's-- everyone seems to have a street name, too.

[Rhonda] Right, and they go by-- they mainly go by their street names.

[Frank] I wonder what that, that's interesting, like what that is. It's sort of, I think he even says it in the book-- you're not like an entity until you get like a nickname, a street name. Because Julio is referred to as Chino. He's half Puerto Rican, half Ecuadorian. And he has a cast to his face that suggests Asian. So he's called Chino. And his wife is Nancy.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But is called Blanca because that means white, and she's very religious and she goes to her Pentecostal church. And she's considered very pure. And her sister, I-- oh, her sister's Debbie. Deborah. And they call her Negra, because she's sort of the opposite of Nancy in that she's like wild and flirts and runs around and smokes and drinks and. So, I mean I sort of had--

[Rhonda] Sapo.

[Frank] Sapo, who was--

[Rhonda] I think that means "the frog," didn't he say the frog? And I think his name is Enrique?

[Frank] Yeah, because he got that--

[Rhonda] Yeah. And then of course, Willie Bodega.

[Frank] Willie Bodega. Whose name is William Irizarry. But his name is-- so everyone has a street name, which is interesting.

[Rhonda] Except for... Nazario.

[Frank] Oh yeah. Nazario.

[Rhonda] But he's kind of like, I don't know, maybe he thinks he's above the street names.

[Frank] Interesting. Is he from...? Nazario is sort of-- alright. So Willie Bodega is sort of where the title comes from. Bodega Dreams. Not so much the actual bodega, like a mini-market in lots of neighborhoods that sell just about everything you might need in the small space. It's his nickname. Because people come to him for everything they need. He's a figure of the neighborhood. Basically, I mean, sells drugs. Like makes money that way. But then obviously gives, well not out, obviously. But gives back to the community by helping local store owners in need, paying for some kids' college education. Keeps the streets like uplifted. Really. Inspired. And he's sort of this mythic figure in the neighborhood. And everybody sort of reveres him. For his helping when they need it the most.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But there is that contrast that he even-- that he sells drugs. He even has in the buildings he develops, buys in the city cheaply and redevelops and gives cheap rent to the neighborhood, has like detox/rehab centers in the buildings. But yet he also sells drugs. And at one point, Bodega says, you know, it's up to them. If they want to do drugs and they want to get clean, I can help them do both. I mean. Interesting contradiction.

[Rhonda] And there's a good quote I think that Chino-- well, Chino tells the story. It's in the first person. But he says "Bodega would go down as a representation of all the ugliness in Spanish Harlem and also all the good it was capable of being." So, and you know, also I think the thing with Willie Bodega to kind of remember as well is, you know, he has this kind of, it's Bodega Dreams. And he has this dream of turning Spanish Harlem into kind of this new-- or having this kind of new class of people in Spanish Harlem to keep Spanish Harlem from, you know, from being gentrified but also, you know, to keep people... You know, doing well in his neighborhood. But he also recognizes that in order to do that, he has to do some things that are unsavory. He kind of compares himself to like Joe, the early Kennedys who had to, you know, the rumor that they were bootleggers, to get to the status that they were. He's recognizing that he has to do some of these like-- these bad things in order to kind of turn Spanish Harlem into kind of this dream neighborhood that he's thinking of.

[Frank] Yeah, Bodega's like a PBS watching and subscribing person. And his role models are from white America. Like Joe Kennedy and others are mentioned. But with the complete acknowledgement that that white America succeeded in crime as well. And that they-- what was the line? Something like "Everyone steals."

[Rhonda] Yeah, something like, you know, all the, something like all the successful people started out as thieves or something like that.

[Frank] Right, and he says a lawyer can steal far more than a gun could.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] And he looks at-- that's the basic tenant of life. That everybody steals, it's just what you have access to. You steal what you have access to.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And so, white America had access to a lot bigger fish, so-called. And Willie Bodega steals what he can on his level. And goes by that model. Like, you know, the Joe Kennedy model. Which is, you know, I guess the truth. It's unfortunate, but yeah, it's true.

[Rhonda] And it's kind of, you know, taking into account, I guess, looking at Bodega's history, kind of like well what opportunities did he have available to him? And also I guess, I don't know if this is important. He had another kind of driving force to make all these changes as well to kind of do all these things. And that was a-- because he was a true romantic. He had a love interest.

[Frank] Well, let's not get there just yet.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] I mean-- that's squashing, I shouldn't do that. I mean, if you want to go there, go there. But I was going to say that premise is sort of very classic in a way. In that Chino is young in Hunter College, his wife, who is pregnant, same age, in Hunter College. Both aspirational, in school, keeping their noses clean. Is the protagonist. So he falls into-- oh, his best friend is, as you referred to before as Sapo, who is considered like not that-- I mean, almost like not that great looking, a kid calls him a frog, like you said, Sapo is Spanish for frog. And he-- but he always believed in himself and didn't let that get him down. But he is definitely a street level henchman, dealer.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] All purpose sort of take care of criminal business for Bodega. And Sapo and Chino are best friends since grade school.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] There is that sense in the community that loyalty is the most important thing above all. Like Sapo used to fight for Chino when Chino was in trouble because he wasn't as street savvy and as strong that way. So there is that loyalty of like Sapo protected me when I needed it, I will always be there for him. And so Chino sometimes like will hold onto some merchandise. That Sapo is delivering to various locations or you know, street stuff. And. Drugs, probably. And he will do that for him. But he's struggling with it, Chino. He sort of like wants to say alright, that's enough. I don't want to do that anymore. It's scary. But he gets-- which is a classic story. He gets pulled in through his loyalty to the world of Bodega. And Bodega's attracted to Chino because he's in college. And like we said before, Bodega has this aspiration for the community to be professional, educated, upwardly mobile. And he's determined to make that happen, regardless of what it takes. And that's how Chino gets brought into it.

[Rhonda] And Chino's definitely resistant at first. But I think he, you know, not just his loyalty, but I think he definitely buys into-- starts to buy into what Bodega is selling him. This dream that he has. I think, eventually, like that's kind of, you know, what makes him kind of hold onto this relationship with Bodega.

[Frank] Yeah, he slowly sees Bodega as an intellectual. And as a good guy. Which at first, when he first gets called into meet with Bodega by Sapo, I was thinking-- I didn't know where the book was going to go. I thought it was-- I was nervous because it seemed reminiscent of those mafia movies.

[Rhonda] It did.

[Frank] Or stories. Where the kingpin guy calls in the young low level guy. You know, he's going to get sucked into this world of crime and he's not going to get out of it. And I was just like, they always make you nervous. Because I feel like in that world, like violence can occur at any time. You say the wrong thing, you're in trouble. You know, you're out. And it just was nerve-racking. But then as the book goes on, you realize almost-- almost extremely so that Bodega is aspirational and like you also said, has this other eye on his personal prize, the love of his life. That had left town years before. But so-- and eventually, like Chino's able to talk very honestly and sort of like irreverently to Bodega without repercussion. Like the first time he did it, I was like oh, he's going to get knocked out or whacked or something. And it doesn't happen because Bodega is this figure. You know what it reminded me of?

[Rhonda] What?

[Frank] "The Great Gatsby," in a way.

[Rhonda] Really?

[Frank] With Bodega as the Gatsby figure. Someone who created this empire, ostensibly for the betterment of the community and certainly that's true. But really, to attract his lost love.

[Rhonda] I can-- okay, I can definitely see it, yeah. I can see that.

[Frank] Chino's like the Nick Carraway character. Huh.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Another thing, interesting point about Bodega that often comes up and it seems like this also was a driving force behind kind of the direction that Bodega took was that he was a member of the Young Lords, which I guess, a lot-- some people kind of countered as like-- a counter to the Black Panther party. But it was kind of an organization, started out as a gang for the Spanish community. But they were like about empowerment and self determination for the Puerto Rican and Latino community in the 60s. And so, you know, Bodega's also this former Young Lord. So he has this aspiration. But he also has-- he's also kind of politically minded. And politically savvy as well.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Because they-- yeah. I didn't know about the Young Lords, actually. Do you know much about them?

[Rhonda] I did know about the Young Lords but not extensively. Like I had definitely heard of them. You know? And I knew that they were contemporary to the Black Panther party. And sort of stood for the same things for the Spanish community.

[Frank] Oh, interesting. So, what was I going to say? So-- sorry, sorry I cut you off before about-- which is a core of the book. His lost love. Bodega's lost love.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which is a girl from the community who was sort of, by her mother, pushed into marriage with a much older, richer Cuban guy. Who then whisks her away to Miami. Where she is, where she has been for the last 20 or so years. And Bodega's building of this empire, built on selling of drugs and crime. But betters the community as well. Is basically to attain wealth to get her back. So he can be as rich as the guy she married. Because basically she was pushed into it and she took it because the guy was really wealthy and she couldn't resist, nor could her family. But she always loved him too, supposedly.

[Rhonda] Right, and Chino is related to Vera through marriage. So that's kind of another reason, or one of the main reasons that Bodega's interested in Chino. Because he knows that he has this connection to Vera. Or Veronica.

[Frank] Yeah, she sort of refashions herself, upward mobility style.

[Rhonda] Right. She makes up this story in Miami that she went to Barnard and she-- yeah. She definitely reinvents herself.

[Frank] She has the cultured voice and is conversive in art. And is at, you know, nouveau riche, I guess you could say.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Yeah. That was sort of, well that's part of a major twist really of what happens. But you know, before we get there, like, the thing about the book, too, that was more blatant than I feel like would be written now, even just 20 years later, is sort of the male/female dynamic. And also how each are portrayed. I mean, whether it actually illuminates human truths or is still just a societal imperative. And that the guys are all about very much motivated by status and power in the community. And sort of have to be a big guy. A lot is made of like what it means to be a big guy and not be a small part of the community. You have to-- always struggling with that sense of status of like am I big guy? Am I street ruler? And that kind of thing. And the women sort of exist as counterparts that are evaluated really by their looks. And that sort of-- that romantic fulfillment. I mean, you know, at one point, let's see, I have this note here that, you know, Bodega. Oh yeah, It's said that Vera, before she left to marry the rich Miami Cuban guy, wanted Bodega. And this is when they're young. Wanted him to have a vision of how to make money. She didn't care particularly if he had money at that point. But he had to have a vision to make money. And what did Bodega want from Vera? Basically because she was beautiful.

[Rhonda] So yeah! Go ahead, sorry.

[Frank] No, so just that dynamic, I mean that's sort of like, you know, gender dynamic of like the guy has to have money and security and the girl has to be pretty. And that certainly plays out with Chino and Blanca. Because Blanca sort of functions as a very religious, very pure, very moral character who Chino is constantly failing to live up to that level. And she's indulgent and supportive, but only wants to be told the truth. So, it does seem-- it does play out this possibly somewhat true dynamic between the genders? Or, you know, I don't know? But, I mean it sort of seemed a little-- it was notable to me.

[Rhonda] It definitely is notable. And I think they-- Chino even said something towards the beginning of the book. That they're, you know, Blanca was so beautiful. And she did, you know, being with her and how other people viewed her really made him feel, you know, good about himself. And you just kind of see that with Chino through with a lot of the different characters. He kind of attaches to people who make him feel a certain way about himself. And he, I think he starts the book, you know, talking about how he kind of hated himself and has this low self esteem. And then these other people, like being with Sapo and being with Blanca are people who kind of, you know, he can kind of feed off of for his self esteem. Which I thought was interesting.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, to be a big guy again.

[Rhonda] Right. Yeah, like you said.

[Frank] So yeah, so Chino does get pulled into this world with Bodega because of his family connections that Bodega needs. And also his-- fact that he's in college and Bodega wants to uplift the community that way with everyone sort of being aspirational that way. But it, you know, what you think is going to be sort of a crime, I kept waiting every other page for Chino to get pulled into a criminal act that he was going to get caught for. Somehow I started thinking he was going to go-- he was going to get pulled in and the track he was on was going to change and he was going to go to jail, basically. And it was going to be this story of like that-- ugh! That moment when he gave into the street. And then had to pay for it and then possibly got redeemed. But it then turns into, that's why it's sort of Gatsby-esque in a way, this romance in a way. Or romantic vision that Bodega had about getting Vera.

[Rhonda] Right. Yeah. And thinking about the twist at the end, I know we're not there yet. And now kind of looking back at the book. It definitely seems something was kind of amiss. Because I thought that when he had-- he sets up this whole plot so that he can meet Vera. Or Bodega donates all this money to the school to name the auditorium after her so she'll come back to New York. And then like all the sudden, like he goes and sees her and they're just immediately back in love. And I'm kind of like that was not what I expected to happen. I thought that she was going to, you know, reject him and maybe that was going to send Bodega spiraling, I don't know. But that, I think those were some clues there that I missed when I was reading it.

[Frank] Yeah, I see, like, you know, simple in that she was sort of feeling-- because you also think, in a sophisticated way, that she's going to get back there and be like who are you again?

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] But it did seem very romantic that she was just on the same page, too. Even after like 20 years.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Then you find out later there's actually another reason because of that, unfortunately. But-- oh! And in terms of style, like you know, I actually, towards the end of it, because I was trying to figure out what the book was about. And then find out by the end, of course.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] For a while there, I certainly felt like he-- Quinonez, the author, was really delving deep into a noire type feel.

[Rhonda] Ooh, yeah, I can see it.

[Frank] The crime war, like that trope of the sort of innocent good guy pulled into this, you know, you could say it's pulled into street life. And it seems very site specific. But in a broader way, it definitely seemed like just the innocent good guy pulled into a life he wants to resist. But can't resist because of that fatal flaw. I mean Chino, in much [inaudible], gets pulled into this world. Because he suddenly really does want a bigger apartment, literally. He has a baby on the way. Bodega is renovating these buildings beautifully. And he's giving very inexpensive rent. So the idea of moving into a bigger place for less money is just too irresistible. And he takes it. And then from that point, he's sort of like, because much is made in the book about owing people. Like if you are done a solid, then you owe them. And then it never sort of ends. You're always like giving and taking and giving and taking. So you're almost always owing someone. Because your dreams might get bigger. And then they're subsidized by sort of not the most legal ways.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So he gets pulled in that way. So it seems very noire. And like, in that there was-- it was towards the end, I was like this is so noire-esque. And I definitely feel like Quinonez was informed by noire films and that sort of type. Because he says like, let's see... Bodega [inaudible]. Like, Bodega, so he's looking at Vera's rich Cuban husband, Vidal, and there's like a tussle. And he goes, "Bodega looked hard into the old man's eyes as if he wanted them to look back at him and share his strengths, come back to life. But the old man's blood was running backward in his veins and God wouldn't reconsider."

[Rhonda] Yeah, especially-- yeah, that scene especially with Vera and the confrontation with the old husband. That is something differently straight out of a noire movie.

[Frank] Yeah. And he was like God would-- and Vera's like very femme fatale. Like she has the high heels and she's very glamorous. Like it suddenly seems a movie where she's just sort of coming in and played by some like, you know, Hollywood star. And like, you know, doing her thing. And then during that scene where there's a tussle, like the climactic tussle, she's hysterical, and she's smoking furiously. And I could sort of see that noire-esque attitude.

[Rhonda] And you have Blanca as like the counterpart to the, she's always kind of like the good girl.

[Frank] Exactly. And going to-- that whole thing in church, actually, when you finally visit Blanca at her church with the anointed one, the parishioner who sees visions or Christ spoke to him and he becomes like a preacher of the word because, and they consider him anointed because Christ had chosen him to be his speaker. And that whole life of the church was sort of illuminated there I thought in a really interesting way.

[Rhonda] I think that-- and sorry to cut you off. But I think the religion part of this book really fascinated me. Because I think it was like a really, you know, the theme of like the religion and the savior. You see it throughout the entire book, right? Like you see all of these kind of savior types. Of course we see Roberto, who was anointed, and-- but you also see Bodega, who is kind of like this savior for the community. And people, and talking about, you know, how the people are going to be so loyal to him. And kind of, you know, are always looking to him. And then there's Nazario. And there's this scene where Nazario's almost kind of like this Jesus figure, there's a scene where the building that Chino lives in that Bodega owns catches on fire. And at the quote that about Nazario, and it says, "Slowly, like a mirage from the desert sandstorm, figure emerged walking towards the people. A tall, elegant man came into-- with his arms outstretched, and a face of pure empathy. It was Nazario." And then Nazario says to the people, "Remember, it was Willie Bodega who sheltered you." And so it's kind of like all of these, you know, religious savior types? But then, you know, we have Bodega's kind of like the savior type. And at the end, Nazario, as we'll get to, turns out to be like a Judas. So I was seeing all of these kind of Christian religion themes throughout the book.

[Frank] Yeah, Nazario is a Judas.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] That's interesting, I wonder, yeah I guess we-- I'm always trying to think of like the human need at the core of it. Like we need-- we certainly need people. We need people, whether we like them or not, to help us to be a part of. To somehow feel a part of. But this elevation, like the whole anointed one you referred to about Roberto. In the church. And then Nazario. And Bodega. That we need to elevate people to believe in something. And the deeds they do accentuate that deserving of our need. But it's an interesting thing. Like especially with the church. Like they needed to elevate someone to worship and to hope for. Because part of the church teaching was that, you know, Christ was coming back. And soon. And whether, you know, the preacher would say, it's tomorrow and then it doesn't happen. They're still like okay, it'll be tomorrow. And tomorrow. And tomorrow. And so they hope for the future. It was interesting about Roberto. Which is a small part of the book, but how when Chino goes to the church, he sees it as more of an outsider's eye. And then he goes to please his wife, Blanca. And Blanca's always hoping he's going to become part of the church. But he notices that, you know, a lot of Roberto's-- the anointed one's-- power is based on his youth and his good looks. And [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which I thought was interesting, like then as he would sort of be married, he would lose a little bit of his allure because his allure was driven ostensibly by his religious fervor. But in a very real way by his availability to the female congregates, who sort of like, maybe he'll be mine. And then when that tension is broken by him getting betrothed, it's sort of like, eh, maybe we should move onto another someone to worship. I mean, it's just interesting the base, so-called, aspect of our desires, and the sort of aspirational aspect of our desires and needs.

[Rhonda] And also, I think Bodega kind of understood how important it was for him to kind of be seen as not quite, not not human, but not real. Like he always had Nazario go as his representation, because he wanted people to kind of see him as maybe like this mythical savior or someone who was above, you know, being human. Who could be there and help them kind of no matter what. And so he says, you know, it's very important kind of for people to not really know who I am or to see me or to know what I look like.

[Frank] He sort of knew a certain aspect of the mechanics of leadership. Like, a certain kind of leader when you are sort of a mystery. Like you know, we sometimes revere people who are mysterious yet seem to do good. Interesting. Yeah, see, he knew that and exploited it for sure. But what about Nazario. His sort of right hand man, Bodega, like do you want to launch into that finale twist?

[Rhonda] Sure! So you know, we have Bodega, who-- I mean, sorry, we have Nazario who his like you said kind of front man, his lawyer. He's always, you know, put together. Knows the right thing to do and say. And it turns out that he is the Judas. He has betrayed Willie Bodega by having this whole plot that he and Vera were the ones who were actually in love. They had planned the whole murder of Vera's husband. And then of Willie Bodega so that they could eventually run away together. And--

[Frank] She would get her husband's money and Nazario would get the empire that Bodega had built. Because they were also going to pin, and they did pin, the murders on Bodega.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Because then Nazario kills Bodega.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Which everyone shouldn't be shocked by because you were all supposed to read it. And you know, listening, that that's what happens.

[Rhonda] And I don't know, like, I think I was kind of a little disappointed in how it ended.

[Frank] I mean, it was very noire twisty. You know, double crossed. Like the final double cross, you know?

[Rhonda] And also how they caught Nazario. I thought that was just like way too easy for someone who's supposed to be so calculated and brilliant. And he just like blabs the whole plot. And then he's-- and then it's over. And I'm like wait, it can't be that easy to catch this person, you know? I don't know, that was the one thing where I was kind of like really? I don't know how I feel about that.

[Frank] Yeah, because Chino, who's the only one that knows that he's the only one that knows. And so he might be the next victim. Because like he's the only one left. But he fulfilled his purpose, so he might be sort of eliminated. And so, but, not out of fear for that, but out of doing the right thing for Bodega, goes to the police and tells everything. That's how it changes. Yeah, right. I mean it was very simplified from probably what reality would be like in terms of the violence that might occur and the, you know, interconnected street life that might have repercussions. But the difference, though, between the ending and a noire ending is that, you know, in the noire version, it would have ended up with the right people in jail. Like Vera going to jail and Nazario. But Chino would have been demoralized and bitter and cynical about the experience. And sort of walk away like, you know, the streets, they get you every time. And like yeah, the people paid the price, but you know, where's that leave us? Like sort of an existential hopelessness. But in this book, it ends differently. It almost becomes a peon to the hopefulness of street life. That the streets are both beautiful and rough. But it's the people in them that will never stop hoping for a better life.

[Rhonda] Yeah, and the right people end up in jail but it kind of all wraps up with a nice tidy bow in the end, you know. Like Chino has finally kind of done something kind of on his own. You know. You know, stood up for the neighborhood, stood up for Bodega's dreams, you know, his wife and he are beginning to kind of, you know, bring things together because of, you know, the-- it got a little shaky throughout the book. So yeah. It didn't end like the noire. But at least the right people ended up in prison. But I was kind of disappointed about how it kind of shook out. But I did love the book overall.

[Frank] Disappointed meaning, meaning what?

[Rhonda] I was disappointed in how... I was disappointed in the way that Nazario's character, you know, was caught. Because I thought, I'm thinking, like you said, if this is kind of [inaudible] differently, then Nazario and Vera would probably just never get caught. He would have had everything planned out. And then, you know, this would be weighing on Chino's mind and it would kind of bring it a little bit more, like you said, not so tidy. But it just kind of, you know, they just kind of really wrapped it up at the end. Really quickly. I don't know.

[Frank] I think, no, I hear you. I think, but like the last couple of pages definitely, like I said before, an elegy or like a hopefulness of the neighborhood. And I think, because that's really where he was going. It wasn't so much like, you know, people's lives, they're this and that. But what matters is the community. I think. You know, because it ends with the line "It seems like a good place to start." Meaning, I wonder what the politics of Spanish Harlem were 20 years ago. Hm?

[Rhonda] That's a good question.

[Frank] Like the hopefulness that Quinonez, who's from-- the author is from Spanish Harlem. And became a professor at Columbia. Like, his hopes for the neighborhood. I can't remember. I mean, because then certainly it's before 9/11.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I wonder. It just was hopeful, right? I mean that's, which is alone a difference.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And I think the very end was also really interesting. Where, you know, a young, a grandfather and a young man who just-- or his grandson who just were new to the United States, came and stopped him and said "We're looking for Willie Bodega." And he tells them he doesn't exist. But then he brings them into his home. So I'm wondering like is he going to be the one to kind of start doing things for the neighborhood now? Is it going to be the next step for him? So I thought that was a really interesting way for the book to kind of end.

[Frank] Yeah, I did think that he was going to ascend to Bodega's status. Like, that neighborhood, like they said at one point, he's walking and oh-- right. Because he's walking back from Bodega's funeral. And newly arrived Puerto Rican immigrants stop him and says "Please help me find Bodega. Because I was promised by my cousin that this guy would help me find a place to live and a job." And Chino's like "Bodega doesn't exist anymore." And then the guy's like "No, no, no, he must, he must, my cousin wouldn't lie." And then Chino says, "Well, hm, yeah, come with me." And he basically takes the immigrant and his son into his house. And I thought like he was going to-- well he might ascend to that level of Bodega mythic-ness. Because it does end like in a beautiful way where the author says, "The way a picture that's been hanging on a wall for years leaves a shadow of light behind, Bodega had kicked the door down and left a green light of hope for everyone. It represented the limitless possibilities in us all, by living his life, striving for those dreams that seemed to elude the neighborhood year after year. But in that transitory moment when at last the pearl was about to be handed to him, like Orpheus or Lot's wife, he had to look back to find Vera. No matter, Spanish Harlem would run faster, fly higher." Again, there, like his downfall, love of this femme fatale, that he'd already, regardless of the motivation, had planted the seeds of aspiration in the community and that Chino felt, and the author feels, were going to blossom.

[Rhonda] Well, yeah.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Nice note to end on.

[Frank] There's some great like... Some great writing in the book, I think. Because like there's--

[Rhonda] Oh, definitely.

[Frank] I feel like his metaphors were sort of cool. I was just trying to think of one, a couple. They're extreme, but they're sort of notable. Like he said "The refrigerator buzzed like--", something like the refrigerator was making a noise-- the refrigerator buzzed like a thousand Buddhists on crack.

[Rhonda] I didn't--

[Frank] The refrigerator hummed like a thousand Buddhists on crack. And I was like what? That's, okay, that's creative.

[Rhonda] I mean, it definitely kept my interest throughout the book. Like there wasn't a moment where I was kind of like, you know, my mind was trailing off. It was definitely, I definitely was entertained and enjoyed the writing. Yeah.

[Frank] It would be fun to talk about a YA book, so called YA book, but--

[Rhonda] We should find one from the list.

[Frank] Like many YA books adults obviously enjoy as well. No, to talk about a so-called YA book with an actual teenager.

[Rhonda] Ah. I don't know any teenagers.

[Frank] No, I don't either. So.

[Rhonda] Hm, I don't know any teenagers.

[Frank] That would be cool as a possible guest, I don't know. I don't know.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So, any final thoughts, my dear?

[Rhonda] You know, that was a fun book to end the year on.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And--

[Frank] Definitely in the line of "The Great Gatsby," I think. But--

[Rhonda] I see your point now that you kind of made the--

[Frank] Mythical figure. Well I'm glad you suggested it, thank you. So, that was from the New York Public Library's 125 New York City Books We Love. And the next time we all get together will be in the new year.

[Rhonda] Yay!

[Frank] And we'll be discussing whatever we have read. And whatever we want to have read. But we'll keep reading book from the various lists the New York Public Library has in the future as well. So, Happy New Year, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] And Happy New Year to you, Frank.

[Frank] Thank you. What?

[Rhonda] I said and to everyone else out there who's listening. Happy New Year.

[Frank] Yeah. I can actually talk to you in person. One of these days. In 2021.

[Rhonda] Well, let's hope.

[Frank] Yeah, let's hope. All we've got is hope, baby.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] All we've got is hope. Well, we've got more than hope. But hope is where it's at. So anyway, thanks everyone for listening. And see you guys soon.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Ferrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.