Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Listen on Google Play

Hey all! This week Frank and Rhonda discuss what they've been reading:

Frank picked up Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia (and did his best not to spoil it for Rhonda who has it on her holiday reading list).

Rhonda read the memoir Haben: The Deafblind Woman Who Conquered Harvard Law by Haben Girma, a human rights lawyer and advocate.

Next week Frank and Rhonda will be reading one of the books on our 125 NYC Books We Love list. Hope you have a chance to read it, too!

Bodega Dreams by Ernesto Quiñonez

---

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

---

How to listen to The Librarian Is In

Subscribing to The Librarian Is In on your mobile device is the easiest way to make sure you never miss an episode. Episodes will automatically download to your device, and be ready for listening every other Thursday morning

On your iPhone or iPad:
Open the purple “Podcasts” app that’s preloaded on your phone. If you’re reading this on your device, tap this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass in the app and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.”

On your Android phone or tablet:
Open the orange “Play Music” app that’s preloaded on your device. If you’re reading this on your device, click this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass icon and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.” 

Or if you have another preferred podcast player, you can find “The New York Public Library Podcast” there. (Here’s the RSS feed.)

From a desktop or laptop:
Click the “play” button above to start the show. Make sure to keep that window open on your browser if you’re doing other things, or else the audio will stop. You can always find the latest episode at nypl.org/podcast.​​ ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

---

Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello and welcome to the Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] You are, how are you hun?

[Rhonda] I'm hanging in there, you know, it's so close to the end of the year, I think I'm feeling a little, a little 2020 fatigue, so.

[Frank] Why? For what reason?

[Rhonda] I don't know, you know it's just, it's just so much that's happened and it's just kind of ready to let the holidays come and just relax a little bit.

[Frank] You know I think I've had, again these are very lucky problems gotta say. Like you just said relax, like that's what I've been thinking too, but I had a strange saying the other day. I was reading the book I'm about to discuss and I really couldn't keep my eyes open. And I thought like, it wasn't the book and I had plenty of sleep and I was just like, what is wrong with me and then I was just sort of like, why am I so tired? And like really just bone fatigued.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And you know probably for a lot of reasons you just said, but what, there was something on mind about, I'm at another branch other than my own so, it's, I'm sort of in charge, sort of not. But, just got into this thing where I want to do, and given permission by the manager there to sort of do things to brighten up the space and just, you know manifest my creativity. So I, I just sort of did it, like I bolted out of my chair, marched over to my old library which is under construction, rummaged around for some material, got some broken pine branches from the neighboring garden and the gardener there. And with hammer and nail rigged up this structure with pine branches and strung it with lights and then put little painted, beautifully painted figurines of animals underneath it in the library I'm working at, Hudson Park. Basically created this thing, like very butch, macho with a hammer. And made this sort of light display, seasonally, but like measuring out wood, cutting it with a saw and then nailing it together, I was like where is this coming from.

[Rhonda] Where is this coming from?

[Frank] I'm not exactly handy. But, the short version of the long story I ever told is that, I desperately needed physical activity and I needed to sort of construct something outside of my own head. Like I'm always talking about, we're always in our own heads and that's why we should read to feed ourselves and that's absolutely important. But, after nine months I realize I hadn't moved as much as I use to, I use to always be doing projects like that. And I literally was so fatigued that not sleep was what I needed, I needed to adrenalize.

[Rhonda] Oh my gosh.

[Frank] I'm sure people listening are taking far better care of themselves and moving, and physically manifesting energy and I just didn't realize how I wasn't moving. And then I was able to read with [foreign word], but I had created this thing out of my hands, with nails and wood, and pine branches and the lights. And it was so, it was so satisfying to actually create something, create something and extend physical energy, so.

[Rhonda] It sounds invigorating, you should, you should take a picture so that we can see it.

[Frank] You know, I [inaudible], I said in the producer, a picture of it to put on the blog post. So it's, she's a [inaudible], I will do, like brushing my hair.

[Rhonda] Well I was a DIY.

[Frank] I'm a little proud of it. And then it's like, it's sort of like table, on a tabletop and at the table level are all these beautifully painted, I happen to have these painted animal figures and one kid just sort of was like, eye level to it just looking at it and I was like oh I want to create magic, yay.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] So that story really is about how I was fatigued too and it wasn't like I needed more relaxation, I needed relaxation in a sort of invigorating way.

[Rhonda]Yeah, you know. It's kind of like have a change in space, and yeah.

[Frank] So but, so I was getting depressed, like can I not read, can I not focus, cause I've talked about focus issues before and how reading helps that. And I've just had problems with it and I think it's just literally after months of not really consciously realizing I need to extend energy, I mean I'm working, it's true but not as vigorously as I'm use to in my own home branch of Jefferson Market. Anyway, I'm, you know I think also I was reluctant to take on projects at the new branch, cause I, though I had seniority and all that stuff, but there is a manager there and I would know how it feels like to invade their space. But, she's so sweet and she was just like do what you want and do stuff. And I just took that and she liked it and it just worked out.

[Rhonda] Hopeful we'll get to see it are going to appreciate it as well. Like I be like, oh they, someone put a lot of effort into doing this, to make the place welcoming, more festive.

[Frank] Yeah. It did, it looks very simple, but it took a lot of time and energy to put into it, which is good. And then it did occur to me in a very self aggrandizing way possibly that, if I had seen, if I saw something like that I'd be, it would, even if I didn't like it, the display would sure to show, oh people care here. Like they care too, they care. And it didn't occur to me until after it was done, like that it's a manifestation of caring too, like, we care enough to create something for us as well as you and the environment. You know the, the [inaudible] of the space. This is getting very highfalutin. Anyway. I was pleased and you reminded when you said how fatigued you were and stuff and how I sort of combated that, I have to move. Anyway. Then the energy and [inaudible] extended energy, take care of yourselves.

[Rhonda] Exactly. And I can't wait to kind of, to see what this looks like.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] In my head, I want to see the end result.

[Frank] Well, don't get your hopes up too high. I'll send a picture to the producer and we can may, or you and we can put it on. It's, there are so, there's so much creativity out in the library world, omg.

[Rhonda] Oh my gosh, yes.

[Frank] You just look at Instagram and people are doing insanely creativity things and this is a tiny corner of that, but, it was selfishly wonderful to do. Just like driving a nail into a piece of wood was like, so satisfying.

[Rhonda] Yeah, I can see that.

[Frank] It just was like something [inaudible]. So, but yeah, there was reading and I did go back to my book and then, with a little more vigor. So how about you, like what have, obviously I'm hoping you've been reading.

[Rhonda] I have, I have definitely been reading, although I think I spoke about this issue that I had, it wasn't last week, I think it was, or last time, but it was the time before about kind of how I had to start a number of different books before I finally hit on one that I was like, okay this is something that am I into right now. And I don't know if that is also a result of kind of being in the pandemic and having trouble focusing, but, you know again just kind of what am I in the mood for, like what is going to keep me in a good mood, what is going to, you know am I in the mood to learn something, do I want a mystery, do I want something that I can kind of just lose myself in so. I started a few books. And then I found one, actually that had been on my list for a while to read. And I was like, oh yeah, this is what I want to read. And I'm so glad I did, so I don't know, should we just jump right in?

[Frank] Yeah, I mean picking a book is another whole thing, like I'm definitely think a lot about it too and then when I commit I commit. And if I in quote don't like it, I still go for it. Just like I thought about that too. And I'll talk about it with the book I read is in that, you don't like, I never, and probably said this before, but not liking it is never like the last word on a book for me. It's somehow the beginning or the middle of a conversation, because then it's interesting to know why. And it's not often the authors fault in quotes, it's usually how one is, I'm receiving it, or reading it, or I'm in the mood for that kind of thing. I mean you kind of [inaudible] the author for sure, but I don't like talking about books in that negative way. It's, always something to talk about, even the book discussion I do when we don't like in quotes a book, it's, the issues it brings up are just as fascinating for [inaudible] talking about the actual book itself. But.

[Rhonda] Yeah and when I start these books it's usually, I usually actually like them and I'll usually, and I'll probably go back and finish all of them. But it's the matter of being able to focus on the words.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Being able to focus on the story.

[Frank] That's such a word, focus.

[Rhonda] Yeah, or focus or I don't know what the other word is for, but just being able to kind of commit to it.

[Frank] It's, I call, I mean I don't know about you but like attention.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Like I've definitely been on my phone, or often and definitely understand the algorithmic enticements of social media, which I don't really have, but can see it. That, sort of moves you to keep swiping or clicking to get another hit and that really bothered me, because that was sucking all my attention then literally, I mean, I literally had the experience where I'd watch something on like YouTube or something and then another one would start and it would remind me, oh I want to check on something else on YouTube, like breeding this sort of keep going thing. And then I, two minutes later I'd forget what I was originally wanting to look up again. And I, it's just two seconds ago and I was like, uh just stop and I think because of this situation of being home a lot and it's, where do you, oddly enough in our own homes there's so much asking for our attention. Or, luring us with their promise of entertainment, or satisfaction, or dopamine hit, it's like sometimes just sitting quietly is difficult.

[Rhonda] And by the way that's called a YouTube hole and I have gone down YouTube holes way before the pandemic. I was the queen of YouTube holes. You know you start out like, how to do a certain recipe and then you're watching like a 1987 aerobics championship of, you know? Like that's kind of where it would happen and yeah, it's very easy to do that.

[Frank] I know. I've mentioned this the last time, I know I did, because it, I don't have any original thought from podcast, the podcasts I always say, I talked about this before and then I reintroduce it again. But I keep thinking about it, especially the book I read too this time about the concept of journey's. She uses slightly overused word, which I always try to find a new word. Why, [inaudible] thing maybe. But, just the concept of literal, physical journey's or pilgrimages. Then I've thought about a lot that looking at store fronts that are boarded up in New York in downtown. And this concept of, that existed when I was a kid, even though it was sort of dying, of mom and pop, it's like journey to one store to get one particular thing. You go to another store to get one particular thing, you got to the library to get, then one basically particular thing. And those journeys, like seem like errands, and chores, and lots of advertising exhorts as like, you don't need to do that, with a click of a button you could have it sent to you. As if like that's sort of a great thing and I guess sometimes it is, but like even that physical journey means something, at least to me more than ever. Like, maybe it's the need for physical movement again, or the need to feel like you're supporting another individual who's in somewhat the same situation as you are, like a small store. And it suddenly seem like heaven, the idea of a main street with separate stores that cater to specific needs. And everybody's sort of in it together and you know, you know what I mean?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And it's just kind of real idea of a journey, like I, like oh I've told this story too, like as a kid driving, riding my bike in the rain to get a record from the [inaudible]. I was, what?

[Rhonda] A Barbara Streisand record?

[Frank] No. Guess what it was, it was Sister Sledge.

[Rhonda] Oh okay.

[Frank] We are family. I've got all my sisters with me, hey, hey, [inaudible].

[Rhonda] It's totally worth it.

[Frank] And I never, I never forgot it because it was such a adventure. It was like, I'm in the rain and I really want this record, I've heard that song, I want to hear more songs, I'm just got to hear it, I'm 15 years old. And riding back to protecting the record from the rain.

[Rhonda] That sounds like a scene out of a TV show, or a movie.

[Frank] Does it?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Huh. Why? Because it's unfamiliar?

[Rhonda] It just, I just feel like there's a story there.

[Frank] Because I tell stories very melodramatically.

[Rhonda] Maybe that's why. I don't know. Yeah sounds like there, it's like, I don't know, that could be the beginning of a character of Frank stories.

[Frank] Little Frankie. Do you want to me start with this or?

[Rhonda] Sure.

[Frank] Or would you like to go first, I don't want to step on your flow.

[Rhonda] You know, I can start.

[Frank] Yeah, I had a feeling. I know you. I know you.

[Rhonda] Well. I actually, I went back to a memoir this week. And it's a new one that, I guess kind of new, I think maybe last year it came out. But it's by, it's called Haben. The whole title is, Haben, The Deafblind Woman Who Conquered Harvard Law. And actually I decided to read this book because Haben is, she's young like maybe in her late '20's, early '30's. And she has like a big social media presence, I follow her on Instagram, she's really kind of, you know great at being an advocate, she has Ted Talks, all these things. So I was like, okay I'm really kind of interested in what her story is. Cause she's a black woman, she grew up in Oakland, California, her family is from, she's first generation. Or she might've been born in Ethiopia, but her family's Ethiopian and Eritrean. And they fled the 1983 Eritrean War of Independence and came to the United States. And, and so like I said she's deaf-blind since childhood. And her condition is, she's described as progressive. So, when she was younger she could hear a little bit, she could see a little bit. And she still can, but I think I read somewhere that her vision is like 1%. So, she communicates with a braille keyboard, for example someone else will type and then she can read it in braille and then, and you know, and then she can converse with a person that way. And, and, you know it's interesting they don't, or at least I wasn't able to find the reason why she has this, why she was born deaf-blind, or had this condition, but she does have an older brother who, who's also deaf-blind.

[Frank] She doesn't talk about it in the memoir?

[Rhonda] She does not and her memoir is, she doesn't talk about that at the, the reasons at all. The way her memoirs kind of organized is not like an autobiography, she has, each chapter just kind of like a snapshot of a certain period in her life. You know like, in this memoir I definitely see that what she's trying to do is get it across kind of a certain number, she's telling us about her life. But she's also kind of departing some of her life lessons. Like some of the things that she's kind of learned through certain experiences. And so, the book is organized that way. So for example, the first chapter is, you know, called, takes place in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in 1995. So it doesn't start from like when she's born to now, she kind of just takes us through certain events in her life. Which I really like, because I feel like that way she kind of was able to really get across the messages that she had, that she's trying to [inaudible].

[Frank] I like, yeah I like that too, sometimes less like the sort of like, I was born and then I did this, and then I did this, and then I did this. I sometimes think you can never really capture a life that way you can almost capture it more if you specifically hone in on certain events and illuminate those, don't you think?

[Rhonda] Absolutely and this is, that's exactly what she does. And I've been reading another biography, not a autobiography but, it's hard to get through, cause it's kind of like what you're saying and this part is, you know it's written by someone else, but the biography includes like every moment of this persons life, you know, so it's kind of like you're slogging through stuff that's like, okay. Do we really need all of this? But, her book is organized, you know, like I said, just by chapter, by event that were meaningful to her. And that she thinks will be meaningful to us. And so, you know kind of talking about some of those events, you know when it's some of the interesting things about her is that she, she grew up attending just regular public schools. And they had kind of classes for a few, some of the blind students who were there. And, you know she talked about kind of this lesson, I think a thing that really comes through in this book is just, kind of like advocacy. And not in the terms of like social situations, but just kind of how do we, how are we able to kind of advocate for ourselves in our life, you know just making life better for ourselves, more meaningful for us and how that kind of extends to other people. And she talks, she starts off, you know in grade school and she's a very good student, obviously cause she ends up going to Harvard Law. But, her teacher says, you know you've missed all of these assignments. And she's kind of freaking out, like as a type a personality like myself, I can feel what she was going through and she's like, what I did, I missed these assignments, how? And she speaks to her teacher who, who teaches the blind students and she said, well, she asked the teacher, like where are you standing when you give these extra assignments? And he's like, oh I'm at my desk. Which is obviously like behind her, far away from where she sits, so she can't hear or see that he's giving these extra assignments. And she says, and so what they decide to do is, they're like okay Haben, so basically you go at the end of class and find out what the extra assignments are. And she's saying, you know that's something that has, often happens to her and kind of other people with disabilities is that, it's put on them to do the needs. So even in elementary school when she talks about kind of this isolation and like, you know the class is over and all the students are getting up and she wants to stop and she wants to ask someone, like what the assignments are. But she's nervous and then all of a sudden like all the students are gone, so she goes and she's just kind of stands by the desk. And she's not sure if anyone's there and finally he's like, you know are you here for the assignments? And she's like yes. And she kind of had to go through all of these extra steps to get the assignments and she kind of says, you know like, that happens a lot. Like the, it's put on her to kind of just get the basics of what she needs right? And, you know that's also kind of the first tale she has in there of, what she has to do to just stay on the same level as the other students in class. You know this, not just the extra work, but the extra stress of having to just do the same things that they're doing.

[Frank] How does she view that? Does she view it as an imposition, as something unfair or is she challenged and takes it on, like that she has to go the extra step to get the work done?

[Rhonda] I mean she takes it as a challenge, but I think it influenced, this type of incident is kind of influenced her life's work as an advocate. You know saying that it's not difficult for institutions, for organizations, for groups to make things more accessible for people.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] You know like it doesn't have to be a barrier or a burden for the person who has the disability or for the organization. You know, he could've easily just, you know stood at the front of the class where she could understand him to get the assignments. You know, and so kind of as a advocate saying like, this doesn't have to be difficult. And it shouldn't always be on the person who needs the assistance. So, and that kind of leads into kind of the big story she has, that leads her to Harvard Law School. Which I thought this was kind of a phenomenal story in the fact that it's, that what led her to be this big advocate and to go to Harvard Law was almost something kind of, not simple to her, but what might seem small to other people who aren't dealing with her same situation. And she went to Lewis and Clark College in Oregon, yeah Portland I think it is. And she was, she says, you know, she will go into the cafeteria, to the dining hall everyday. And anyone whose ever been into, you know a college dining hall, it's just tons and tons of people, there's like stations here, stations there. And they had, they would have a menu on the wall of like what station would serve what everyday. And she couldn't read it. And so she would go into the dining hall trying to figure out like, well what can she eat. And she couldn't really see, you know obviously she couldn't see what was there, it was too loud for her to have like a conversation with someone. So she would just go into, she would just pick a line. And did this, take whatever was offered at that line and she wouldn't, or what she was going to have for lunch, or for dinner until she sat down to actually eat it. And, you know, obviously, I mean if you think about this. Like if anyone's like a picky eater, which I kind of am, to just, you know, pay all this money to go to school and sit down and eat whatever it is. Right? And when she talks about this, like if you listen to her Ted Talks, she kind of makes a joke out of it saying, you know, you know how disappointed she would be when she would go, go back to her dorm and find out that they had brownies, you know things like that. But, so what she decided to do was, she just went to the people who ran the dining halls and said, can you email me the menus everyday, because then I have the technology on my computer, I can find out what it is to eat and then I can just, I know where to go, I can pick up my meals and they're like, sure we're happy to do that for you. And of course they start doing it, but then they stop and then they fall off and then they kind of just stop doing it completely.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And then she goes back and she says, you know, you guys, the day when you do this it's really helpful for me, but you've stopped. And kind of what they do is like, well why can't we just read the menu to you when you come in and she's like well I can't hear it, there's too much noise there. And then they're kind of like, well you know what, we're really busy, you know that kind of thing. And you should kind of be grateful that we were going to do this for you in the first place. And you know we're not really required to do this and basically just saying, you know kind of sorry. And so this is when she kind of begins like her journey, she goes to the computer and she's like, really frustrated and she looks up the Americans With Disabilities Act. And she's like 19 years old and she's write them this email where she CC's the President and other people on there, and she's like, you know according to the Americans With Disability Act you're suppose to provide this for me and if you don't I'm going to sue you. And she says, you know she had no clue, like she didn't really think she was going to sue anybody, she didn't know how to sue anybody she was 19. But she was like I'm going to say this, I'm going to say the American Disability Act. And then she goes to lunch the next day and not only are they like oh we're so sorry, we're going to send you the emails, they like give her cookies, they do all this kind of stuff right? And she was like, wow, you know that worked. And then what kind of I think drives her even more, is she talks about kind of the next year she goes in and there's a student who's also blind. And she asks him, she says, do they email you the menus everyday. And he says, they do and it's really helpful and she's like, oh you know the thing that I did not only helped me, but helped someone else. And of course so that's kind of what influenced her to go to law school to become a disability rights lawyer. But, you know I guess like the bigger, another lesson there as well is just like how far, you know will any of us go, do any of us go to really advocate for the things that we need? And, I mean I kind of thought that was pretty exceptional, cause I'm like, well would I have done the same thing, or would I have just, you know continued to eat whatever it is that I picked up, I don't know.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] You know? But, and thinking about the fact that she says this all kind of like, the ADA and other disability laws, that you know obviously does, it helps everybody when you do this. So, you know just kind of.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Figuring out the idea of advocating for ourselves and how that can spread out to other people.

[Frank] It isn't just saying like personality and how it manifests too, because I feel like I've read stories of people in similar situations, that had said, they didn't even think they, they didn't even think to ask. Like they didn't even occur to them to go to that step, they just accepted the situation as it was. And also the concept of, well, that I'm not alone, like you could think, well it's just me, I'm deaf, I'm blind, I mean and so unique to most people that it's, I'm not going to cause a problem. But, she had the wherewithal to also realize that she's also helping other people.

[Rhonda] Right. Exactly.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah and, yeah that was really kind of drives her, but you know, and so the book talks a lot about her advocacy work, but it's also, it's kind of eye opening to me in a lot of other ways in terms of people who are living with certain disabilities. And she talks about, you know what happens to her when she was trying to find a summer job and kind of like, she talks about ableism. And how she would apply for a job after job, and then a lot of times she would get a job and she would show up. And she would have her cane and they was kind of say, oh, you know give an excuse for her not to have the job. And she said, you know talk about how frustrated that was and kind of what she says about that. I'm trying to find, oh okay. And she talks about the way that kind of people view blindness and how that fit into ableism. She says, blindness is just the lack of sight, but people inflate the disability to an absurd degree. They assume incompetence, intellectual challenges and an inability to contribute with alternative techniques. This is decades of cultural stories perpetuating the idea that people with disabilities are inferior to the non-disabled. Wherever I go regardless of how hard I work, I keep encountering ableism. And in one of her talks she talks about language and how, the way that people use the word blind as, you know incompetence, or not being fully aware. Saying, you know she was blind to the situation.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Or, you know different ways that people, in other terms of disabilities like, like when we say lame duck session, or yeah, things like that. And how we use language and how that kind of fits into ableism. And so you know of course that makes me think about, which is why I love kind of reading these type of things, cause that make me evaluate myself and how do I use these, do I use these terms? Probably at some point, so now I kind of know to be aware of that.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean it's an interesting question like, does she feel like, to say like, oh god I was so blind, how could I be so blind. Does she feel that should be changed?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] She does because.

[Frank] Intimates that being ignorant is, there's a negative connotation to being blind.

[Rhonda] Exactly, it's like that's what she's saying, cause you're saying, you're saying it that way, you're saying in a way obviously that is a negative that is a problem. And just saying, you know that feeds into what people think about blind people. Which is interesting, she gave the statistic that 80% of blind people are unemployed. And obviously, you know and so that falls kind of into that, it that a lot of people just automatically think that that is the case. You know, and that it affects them intellectually, or in other ways. And she also says that a lot of times people infantalize people with disabilities as well. Treating them, treating them like children. So.

[Frank] Yeah. That's a good example of before, when I was saying about reading and not in quotes liking a book, it's like we all bring something to the equation like, you know like you just eluded to, you're dealing with someone who's blind and you're not. You can put it on them as to why you're behaving the way you're behaving. Like even talking louder, like [inaudible], some people talk louder to a blind person as if they're, can't hear as well, even though in this case of course she can't as well. But like it's, it's not about them, it's about your interpretation of that and your anxiety really. I mean your anxiety, and fear, and confusion that, at dealing with someone who is so different in quotes than you.

[Rhonda] Yeah, yeah exactly. And it was interesting cause she says that, even though she has like a little bit of hearing and a little bit of vision, when she talks to people she just says, I'm deaf-blind, because she says, if she tells people that she has a little bit of vision, what people will do is they say, okay how many fingers am I holding up? So and then she says, if she says that she has a little bit of hearing then they just yell in her face right? So, again, yeah exactly like what you were saying. And kind of another part that I was kind of curious about before I read the book was, you know how she communicates and kind of the isolation that she feels sometimes. Which I thought was really interesting, because, you know she talks about her first class at law school. And she kind of tell that people are around her, talking, and just getting to know each other, and she's kind of keeps saying to herself like, you're being left out, you're being left out. And she kind of repeating that to herself, because you know, people were just kind of, you know in a way, yeah I guess ignoring is the word because maybe they weren't comfortable, maybe they didn't know how to approach her. And I was watching, I don't know if you say this on Netflix Frank, of the documentary called Crip Camp.

[Frank] I don't know, but I've heard about it.

[Rhonda] Yeah, about the people started the, you know.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Helping American Disabilities Act and the director of that film said that when he went to school, to elementary school his father told him, you're going to have to be really outgoing. Because people are not going to come and talk to you. And you see that way in this book about how she has really had to make these really strong efforts to have people who are not within the disability community to communicate with her and one of the examples she's at this kind of like law school networking event, which I remember those back in my law school days. Where you are, you know everybody's got their power suits on and you know mingling with the partners of the different firms. And you know they set her up at this table with her braille keyboard. And she asked someone who's assisting her. And basically she has to ask the assistant to just go out and like bring people to her. You know, cause otherwise people probably would be, I don't know, too nervous or maybe not notice that she's there. But she has to make these efforts to like really engage with people. And to have, also to have her, the people who are assisting her will usually do things like, not just help translate, typing back and forth, but describe like the social situation, describe the scene, describe the social context. Which she can't pick up just through typing back and forth. So, you know, there's that component as well. But it, and you know the, there's so much here that I could get into, I mean of course she talked about intersectionality, because not only is she deaf-blind, but she's a black woman, she's a child of immigrants. You know, so there's, you know and the way that her family's community viewed people with disabilities, you know there's just, there's the barriers to access and then she also kind of tells some really kind of interesting stories, kind of fun stories from when she was young. For example, just how, I don't know what the word, she was in Eritrea and she knew that their family had a bull and she basically goes out and kind of just like teases the bull. And she's, you know just very adventurous, she goes, she goes rock climbing, she has friends that she love to do ice, glacier climbing in Alaska, and she's just like a very adventurous personality. And she blends that in with these stories that she does and so, you know her work now is really dedicated to digital access. And being able to, for people who are blind-deaf, or blind to be able to access internet, and act, and all that kind of stuff, which I didn't even know she was talking about how Netflix didn't have closed captioning until like 2012 and I watch everything with closed captioning, so I was very surprised by that but.

[Frank] Do you?

[Rhonda] I do and I feel like a lot of people do. And I don't know, you know.

[Frank] I don't.

[Rhonda] You don't? I don't know why, I've always felt like I'm missing something. And I do, like I, and my family's always say I listen TV very very loud, at least so maybe that's why I started doing it too. But, you know I [inaudible].

[Frank] Ear Buds. So I can hear it, yeah.

[Rhonda] That's, yeah. But, you know so she is, and so she, her kind of, her work now is on making sure that technology is accessible to people. And, you know I learned, I really, you know I said you know you can always say this about books, like I learned a lot. Oh and last thing I want to say about this. Which I thought was a really important thing, is that she talks about how, the way that people call people with disabilities inspirational.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And after she said it, I definitely, was like okay, can't say that, when I'm talking about this book and I'm trying to find, yeah here it is. About the way that she says, okay she says, I cringe inwardly, people with disabilities get called inspiring so often. Usually for the most insignificant things that the word now feels like a euphemism for pity. Sometimes when a non-disabled person uses the word to describe a person with a disability, it's a sign that they're feeling overwhelmed or uncomfortable. And so again like, there's a lot of things in here, you know so this is why it's so important to, for there to be representation, for us to be able to interact with people who are not like ourselves, because this made me kind of really evaluate the language that I use, the way that I move through the world, you know I can do this thing, but how is this accessible to someone who may be blind, or deaf-blind, or deaf? You know? So, you know she tells just great story of the different stories in her life, but it also allowed me to do some self-reflect, some self-examination. So, and she has really great Instagram page as well so.

[Frank] Well, I mean I would say that that's successful if the result was that you were self-reflective. Because, that's the most, I think one could ask for is, to sort of look inside yourself and see how can I be a better citizen, a more sympathetic citizen of this world you know? And that's really the best thing to do, I mean it just shows you that, we're such in an advocate age, and activist time right now about people wanting to be seen for themselves.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And treated just like a human being, like anyone else. And you can see how difficult it is, so, it's funny if I was dealing with her and she was like, oh I'm so tired of being called inspirational, I be like well just deal with it. You're inspiring because, I was thinking it's more like, again it goes back to the self, to the perceiver, it's like I would probably think inspiring or I would feel teary eyed, because you imagine yourself, you, well see this is a self-reflection. You put in yourself like, what if I were blind or deaf and that scares you, can scare one, if you're not because you don't know what it as well as she does, so you get scared and then you feel anxious and that's really what she said people were feeling. And that's exactly what the anxiety, yeah actually she's right. Well, what was her name again?

[Rhonda] Haben Girma.

[Frank] How do you spell that?

[Rhonda] So her first name is Haben, h, a, b, e, n.

[Frank] Oh okay.

[Rhonda] And her last name is Girma, g, i, r, m, a.

[Frank] Well you gave a fun fact, or a fun fact about, when you said, would you say something didn't exist until 2012?

[Rhonda] Yeah, captions, closed captions on Netflix.

[Frank] Well in the book I read, it takes place in 1950 in Mexico. Women did not have the vote in 1950 in Mexico.

[Rhonda] That is an interesting fact that I was not aware of.

[Frank] So much, and that's before my time even. But, so much in our, in our lives, in our own lifetimes and just before until recent history have not existed in some of the things we've sort of take for granted. Even though my book has nothing to do with triumphing over adversity or advocating for one self and one rights, it was more like a fun romp. Can I launch in?

[Rhonda] Yeah [inaudible].

[Frank] Since you took up 16 hours of my time.

[Rhonda] You [inaudible] hours of my time.

[Frank] I know, I know, I was going to say like, usually I'm the big talker. On fire Rhonda, fire. No I loved it. It's books, thank you for introducing me to a book I did not know. Mine was more of a fun romp, it's a book called Mexican Gothic.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] Have you heard of it?

[Rhonda] Yes, actually that was going to be my holiday book. I can't wait.

[Frank] Oh no, that means you want to read it, that means I can't really talk, well alright.

[Rhonda] No, tell us.

[Frank] But you're not going to spoiler, you don't want, I mean obviously I'm not going to reveal.

[Rhonda] Well I just have to deal with the spoiler.

[Frank] No, no, no, no, I think I don't, I think I shouldn't reveal spoilers in this, because it's part of the fun of reading a scary book right?

[Rhonda] Oh I love it, scary.

[Frank] Yeah. I was like a kid saying I'm reading two scenarios, I need something fun, so of course I went towards scary and I heard of Mexican Gothic over the summer. It's by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. Who is Mexican, Canadian. And she wrote this book Mexican Gothic, which takes place in the early '50's in Mexico. And I just saw the word Gothic and I have a thing about that word, because I work in a Gothic building, Victorian Gothic and I like scary, and I've read early Gothic novels in the 1700's, and you know the tradition continued with Frankenstein, and Dracula, and Mary Shelley. And like what actually, you know, and on into Daphne du Maurier, and Rebecca. And then into movies and there's so much there, it's like very moody and suggestive and interesting and I, you know I love things that revolve around an old house, or an old church, or you know old crumbling, decaying buildings where usually a youthful usual heroin enters into this world and encounters sinister forces that she has to overcome, or strives to overcome. And, and this book is no different. So, it revolves around a young woman named Noemi. And she's like a Mexico City socialite, who's like partying, and drinking, and smoking, and dancing, and flirting with her boyfriend. She would go [inaudible] and you know he's just like you're mystifying and magical, and wonderful, she said, like I know, aren't I wonderful? So, she's just like this very beautiful girl who's bouncing around in college, can't really decide what to do with her life, but yet she's sort of does enjoy being beautiful and being a party girl. So, then of course, dun, dun, dun, she gets a letter from her beloved cousin, Catalina. Who got married to a very dashing mysterious figure and he took her off to his gigantic mansion castle in the outs, in the hinterlands of Mexico. And the family hadn't really heard of her, but she, Catalina writes Noemi a letter saying, just basically help me.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank] I think I'm being poisoned, I think.

[Rhonda] Oh my god.

[Frank] The walls are caving in on me, there's ghosts, just like terrifying. And so, Noemi's like, huh. Actually she doesn't get the letter, her father does. The father gets it and brings Noemi, it's not Naomi, it's Noemi, into his office and says, you have to go help your cousin Catalina. And interestingly in terms of social stuff, because horror often deals very much so with social constructs and societal impulses writ large. Like horror can actually talk a lot about issues in a very exciting dramatic way. Right? But, the [inaudible] Frankenstein is a prime example, could bring up so many issues about human life as we know it. But told in a very exaggerated horrific way that's entertaining. So, like the social roles here, like basically the father says, I need you to go and figure out what's going on over there, because Catalina sounds upset and I don't want any divorce happening. Because that will sully the name, our name. And so certainly he doesn't want to go through that, so he has a selfish reason and, but more into that is that, Noemi wants to go back to school yet again for anthropology. And her fathers like, you've already tried school, you just find a husband. And she's like I really really really want to keep pursuing these ideas and knowledge, cause I don't know what I want to do in life and it's not just getting married. Even though she loves the party life. So part of her agreeing to go help Catalina beyond her affection for Catalina is that, she has to prove to her father, cause he basically says I'll send you to college if you go figure this out and make sure there's no divorce and sullying our good name. So there's a lot of social stuff right in there. And like typical of these books, which is a lot of fun, cause they give a lot of pleasure, you have this sort of like carefree character with some psychological nuance, like wanting to go back to school, wanting to make something of her life. Going into a very alien strange environment. And finding it, finding a challenge there right? Like Rebecca there's more of a mousy character who's, you know doesn't think much of herself. And falls in love with dashing Mr. de Winter and taken to Manderley where she encounters all sorts of issues and drama. And has to grow from that. So, basically Noemi goes to this giant crumbling mansion called High Place, h, i, g, h, High Place. And there's even like a sinister older lady who is very terse and disapproving and stern and there's a.

[Rhonda] Kind of like.

[Frank] Mrs. Danvers, right.

[Rhonda] Danvers, yeah.

[Frank] Yeah, and Catalina's husband, the son of the family, Virgil is very handsome and dashing and the stern lady's son. They're all family, Francis is sort of mild and not as cute according to [inaudible], but very sweet and helpful and you might see a romance possibly happen there, possibly.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] So she gets there and then the patriarch of the family, Howard Doyle, it's the Doyle family are British. And they basically came over to Mexico to dig for silver and then, you know created a silver mine because they've extinguished the resources in Britain. Came over to Mexico to basically exploit the land, take the silver and exploit the workers in Mexico. Certain catastrophe sort of destroyed the mine and the family is trying to recover from that catastrophe. I mean there's sort of like gentile rich, you know on the way, but still have a lot of resources. So, again like I said before, you know issues that are brought in horror, like clearly there's a sort of social commentary on exploiting like, outsiders exploiting a countries resources and people. Because, the miners in the mine, the silver mine, the Mexican miners all died. Actually during a what? Pandemic. But, actually that, what?

[Rhonda] I said we can't escape it.

[Frank] I know, I was like reading it and I was like oh my god. But it turns out I'll just tease this a bit, that it wasn't a pandemic, it was something far more insidious.

[Rhonda] Oh that, I'm intrigued.

[Frank] Let's hope our own situation is not far more insidious than it already is proven to be.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But, so, you get the setup, did I?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Okay. So, he's put into this situation, but I really, you know since you're going to read it, it actually helps me not to spoil stuff and I'm sure people listening who want to read it are like, thank you Frank, don't spoil it.

[Rhonda] But this book has had so much kind of buzz.

[Frank] Yeah. Oh but I should, I'll just give you a personal thing my journey about my experience, cause I, like I said I had that fatigue and I, then at the top of the podcast told you I went out constructed the little exhibit. And then felt better, cause I, but the first like half of it, it's about 300 pages, the first half of it was very stately, very, it almost felt like a magazine serial from like the '50's, you know something serialized that wasn't too graphic, wasn't too blatant, very sort of understated and lovely in the writing. But very broad and like oh I know that troupe, I know that method, I know that, I know the author is indicating like they're walking through a cemetery and it's very misty and you see a figure in the distance. So you've seen that scene and you've read about that scene, but yet it very, can be very satisfying because, it's just tapping into sort of fun stuff right? Even if you know the troupe it doesn't mean it's going to be unsatisfying. But there actually is a beautiful scene in the cemetery it's wonderfully written.

[Rhonda] I love that there's a cemetery in it.

[Frank] Oh yeah. Oh yeah, let's just unmarked graves anyone?

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] So there's that and then, so what was I saying? Oh yeah and then after the halfway mark coincidental to my expenditure of physical energy I went back to the book and it kicks in. To a little bit of a higher here, cause I was actually thinking, oh this would be a perfect book to recommend to somebody want something scary, but that's not graphic, it's sort of just, you know clocks ticking, and moldy books in the library kind of feel. But, now I can't recommend that to a person who doesn't want too gruesome, because it certainly gets gruesome towards the end, which I know you're going to love.

[Rhonda] I know, I'm, the more you say the more I'm ready to read this book.

[Frank] I mean, so I would.

[Rhonda] Get to it, but is there supernatural elements to it?

[Frank] Yep.

[Rhonda] Okay, yes.

[Frank] I'm like yep. I would say there's, well there's social commentary certainly about exploiting people and labor, I mean you can read between those lines, I mean. Fungus is involved.

[Rhonda] Fungus, okay.

[Frank] Bile is involved.

[Rhonda] Wait, you said bile?

[Frank] Bile, b, i, l, e.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] I mean there's a gun, there's a knife, there's a crypt, there's a room below a crypt.

[Rhonda] Oh my goodness. That sounds amazing.

[Frank] It gets Gothic. So, I hope you, it'll be interesting to see what you think. I have to say just one more thing that I enjoyed was, where, like sort of the unruliness of desire, I, like I said part of it, all deals with the exploitation of people and also it even edges into eugenics like.

[Rhonda] Oh wow.

[Frank] I haven't even talked about the patriarch of this family Howard Doyle, but I won't, I don't have to, he's sort of the avenger of a lot of this bad stuff. And he clearly has a problem with the Mexican people that he came here to exploit. Even to the end of bringing British soil to Mexico to plant his garden on British soil rather than have it be on Mexican soil. So you can see where that's going on. That's a whole thing there. But, in terms of emotions and stuff which I tend to respond vividly to is, Noemi is, well how much I want to reveal, has a dream possibly, there's a dreams figure in this too. And the dashing older son Virgil, as opposed to the sort of Mountie, not so cute blonde, timid Francis. Sort of gets, tries to get it on, what am I trying to say, with Noemi. And it's very vivid that Noemi is feeling like desire back, even though it's clear that Virgil is setup to not be a good guy. That's Catalina's husband, her cousin that she came to save. And he's trying to kiss her neck you know? So she feels desire and what, a little more complicated than that, but what I like about it is that it really was sort of going into this thing, and it does discuss that she tussles with her desire, but realizes that it's not, that desire is not all her, it's not fully her, it's part of her, but it's not all her. And what I like about that, is what I talk about before, is the theme of yes we have our desires, yes we have our biases, yes we have our impulses. But like you said about your book, with just a little bit of self-reflection, and self-consciousness you realize you can overcome that, because she knows it's wrong. And to go, to give into that desire to him, because it's not a through-line of satisfaction for her and she knows that and she can only know that by self-contemplation and knowing herself. And knowing what the high road can be. And I think human beings have a particular ability to take that high road, I mean how many stories and so called scandals liter our landscape when people did not do it because they, and we say use the language gave in to their desires.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I find that a very interesting place to be in terms of thought because, when you feel something that's very human, desire is very human, and it doesn't, her desire for Virgil, whether he's a bad guy or good guy is not a pejorative per say. We shouldn't judge that, because that's human desire, human nature. But she then goes, he's not a good guy, it's not going to turn out well, I'm not doing it, I'm not going there. And, it was a little emotional sophistication I thought for this book to take on. I don't know if I explained it well, but I found that interesting, it's a predominant part of the book, it just gives that character a little more range and human vulnerability.

[Rhonda] Yeah and since we always see that in horror. So that's a nice little [inaudible], I don't think, yeah.

[Frank] Yeah, oh yeah. So, that intrigued you I'll leave it there and not spoil anything, cause it's basically half the book and then it gets more dramatic.

[Rhonda] I can't wait, I mean you definitely have peaked my interest, like I was excited to read it, but now I'm very intrigued.

[Frank] Oh you know what's going to put you over the top? Is that, the book you talked about a while ago, The Changeling by Victor LaValle.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] On the cover he blurbs it as masterful, a gloriously moody adventure, spooky, smart and rye.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] So your beloved Victor LaValle gave it a thumbs up.

[Rhonda] Thumbs up, excellent.

[Frank] Alright. So Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia. So, oh everybody out there. So, the year is coming to an end and as you know Rhonda and I've discussed books from the New York Public Library's 125 Books We Love, celebrating the 125th anniversary of the library. And as the year comes to a close, I think we might move into exploring upper lists the New York Public Library has. And to that end, we are going to, Rhonda and I read a book together and discuss it in our next episode. From the 125 New York City books we love, that's the name of the list right?

[Rhonda] Yes, yep.

[Frank] Yeah, NYC books we love. Which is on our website nycl.org, so it's sort of a homage to New York. And the book we chose to read is Bodega Dreams by Ernesto Quanonez. So that's the book Rhonda and I are going to read and discuss. Hopefully you guys out there will read along with us. That episode will be, oh the 31st right?

[Rhonda] Oh the New Year's Eve episode.

[Frank] Yeah, it'll be released 31st, so you can come listen us to discuss Bodega Dreams with a glass of champagne. Cause we'll be bombed probably right?

[Rhonda] Probably.

[Frank] No, probably. I have kids over here. Oh man. Alright, so anything making you particularly happy these days? Anything giving you holiday cheer?

[Rhonda] I know, like I shouldn't be hesitating on this.

[Frank] Well I can tell you something that I recommend on the cultural landscape that's given me life lately. And it's the song that I've seen the video for, I haven't seen the special from of Oh Santa sung by Mariah Carey, Jennifer Hudson and Ariana Grande. It so much fun and it's like a fun trio between the three of them singing the song that Mariah Carey wrote called Oh Santa and it's very fun and I've been watching it like every 25 minutes of just being like, he, he, he, yay.

[Rhonda] You know I've heard pieces of it, I need to go back and actually watch.

[Frank] Oh Santa, oh Santa, that's Jennifer Hudson if you didn't know.

[Rhonda] That's her part?

[Frank] Yeah I played an actual clip of her signing, could you tell?

[Rhonda] Oh yeah actually. Just like her.

[Frank] It's a lot of fun.

[Rhonda] Just like her.

[Frank] Just like her. So I think that's joyful, I mean Mariah Carey is like the queen of Christmas right?

[Rhonda] Yeah, I mean All I Want For a Christmas, that's a classic.

[Frank] It is.

[Rhonda] There's a modern day classic.

[Frank] How many modern day classics are there?

[Rhonda] Not many, not true classics.

[Frank] I know, like that one. So that's [inaudible].

[Rhonda] All the Christmas music, holiday music, you know pull out my James Taylor Christmas album, one of my favorites.

[Frank] Oh, I didn't know he had one.

[Rhonda] Oh, it's beautiful. Beautiful. Has like Natalie Cole, and some other people on there.

[Frank] James Taylor, nice.

[Rhonda] Like sit by the fire and listen to James Taylor's sing Christmas songs.

[Frank] Awe, I didn't know, that's so nice.

[Rhonda] Yes. You know what, I'm going to have start listen to that, it's time to pull it out.

[Frank] Time to get it going.

[Rhonda] Get it going.

[Frank] Yeah Oh Santa's very upbeat, makes you want to dance. So, physical energy, but yeah contemplative holiday stuff. Meet me in St. Louis, Judy Garland.

[Rhonda] Oh my god.

[Frank] Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, that stuff.

[Rhonda] And you know as we talked about last episode, there's also the Streisand Christmas album.

[Frank] Yep. Oh I wasn't even going to mention it, I just didn't want to go down that road where we both [inaudible].

[Rhonda] I know, but I love her version of Jingle Bells.

[Frank] Oh yeah, it's the fast one right? Jingle bell, jingle bell, jingle all the way, the one?

[Rhonda] Yeah, that one is super fast Jingle Bells.

[Frank] Of course.

[Rhonda] She has two Christmas albums actually.

[Frank] We better not do this, because we're going to be on for another 49 minutes.

[Rhonda] I know.

[Frank] Because it basically becomes like who knows more, Rhonda or Frank and you.

[Rhonda] I know about Barbara Streisand.

[Frank] You know all the references and I do to. But, I think that's fine. Thank you everybody out there and stay safe and well and see you next time.

[Rhonda] See you next time.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to the Librarian is in, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Ferrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.