Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Happy start to fall! Rhonda and Frank are ready for Spooky Season! This week they check in with each other and discuss what they've been reading...

Frank picked a book he read a while back and decided it was time to re-read:The Black Prince by Iris Murdoch. 

Rhonda is ready for fall, spooky season and all things horror. She decided to kick off the coming fall season with The Changeling by Victor LaValle. 

Resolving to commit to marriage and parenthood unlike the father who abandoned him, Apollo Kagwa, who suffers from bizarre dreams, is shocked when his wife commits an act of astounding violence before disappearing. (Publisher summary).

Dont forget to join us next week for our next book club episode. Frank and Rhonda will be reading...

The Turn of the Screw by Henry James 

More things we talked about today:

• The history of changelings
• The 1986 film Troll (not the animated kids movie)
• The 2001 film about Iris Murdoch, Iris

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Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York public libraries podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm Fr-r-rank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda. Am I supposed to roll my R's like you, Frank?

[Frank] R-r-r-r-honda! [Rhonda chuckles]. Why not?

[Rhonda] Yeah, R-r-r-honda.

[Frank] We can reinvent ourselves, as we are still separate from each other ----

[Rhonda] I know.

[Frank] -- apart from each other. I was thinking about that this morning, about like when, and if we would actually be able to talk in the same room, and it seems like it's still going to be awhile. Definitely, I guess through the end of the year, at least, I guess.

[Rhonda] I'd say at least. It makes it a while. It will come again when we can be in the same room and talking to each other, but you know we've made it work.

[Frank] Yeah, I guess. [ Chuckles ] [Inaudible] not too sure. I'm kind of proud of the way we have been able to keep this going with the pandemic.

[Frank] I am, too. I am, too. I just thought we'd [inaudible]. I'm self-conscious about talking too much because like you know, the vicissitudes of our recording apart like -- that sounded weird. And it's harder like to have that conversation where it's a give and take. Now you have to be a little more -- or I have to be a little more careful about shutting up and letting you talk [chuckle].

[Rhonda] No, I mean, you know, it's an adjustment to not be in the same place, and to kind of feed off of each other's visual cues. And, but --

[Frank] Yeah, exactly. Like a real conversation. I mean, you know like don't even ask me how I saw this, but like shows like Dancing with the Stars and other shows have come back into the studio with people separate from each other, or distance from each other. But clearly the people dancing like must've gotten tested or something and I guess they're okay. I don't know how they work it but certain things are coming back where people are in the same room.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But I understand. And I'm glad and I think it's great the library is being cautious though. We should say, of course, that you know well over half our branches are open for a sort of grab and go service, where you can place items on hold, and come pick them up, which has been great because I've been working -- not at my own branch which is still closed because we're under construction -- but at another branch of the village I've probably said it. You know, as Fall kicks in, people are coming back and it's a delight to see after not seeing people for so long.

[Rhonda] And that's wonderful, Frank, [inaudible] that has been able to happen with the branches. We, on the research side, we haven't been able to do that yet, but we've been able to provide services through like scanning some of the collection items. So we're still trying to kind of be in contact with our patrons as much as possible. But I can't wait like you said for when we're able to kind of go back to normal operations because the libraries are just so important to people for so many reasons, you know, just having that physical space. So I'm looking forward to that day.

[Frank] Absolutely. And I think it's like revealing itself to be like a very needed physical space in especially in a city like New York.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] But of the, you know, it shouldn't be a surprise, but yet it is, and maybe you don't want to be too presumptuous, and you just want to be grateful. People coming in and literally saying I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you're open. Lots of kids with parents coming in. Like maybe because I normally don't see them in my normal function like at the library because I don't work in the children's room per se but like now everyone's coming in to pick up their stuff. The kids are just like running to the shelves to see what's there for them. And I've noticed people are coming in and checking even if they didn't get an alert that their hold was there because it's something, it's a lovely sort of fun task to do during the day. And I don't know it's been nice to see people again and to see people coming back. Like it's not quiet by any -- I mean it's serene, but it's not slow or quiet by any means. So --

[Rhonda] Oh, that's great.

[Frank] Anyway --

[Rhonda] That makes me happy.

[Frank] Good, good. And I know you're busy and I'm very conscious of that because you have your very fancy highfalutin' research stuff to do while I'm down on the front line [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Well, we have our patrons who are who are, who are, we've introduced what's called EDD, electronic document delivery. So, unfortunately, people can't come into the research library just yet. We hope that'll be coming soon. But people can still, you know, we've been working with our patrons virtually doing research consultations, and scanning different parts of our collections for people. So, like you said, we're still trying to connect with our patrons but unfortunately not yet coming into the building. But we hope that'll be soon.

[Frank] Yeah. It's one day at a time. I mean the last thing I can say is that the core of what's happening is really I'm finding the, is how one thinks of time. If I think too far in the future, if I get anxious and sort of like, ugh! like how could I make it until like sort of using my old goals when I was in my regular beloved branch, my old goals of like okay, I'll do this by this month. I'll do this by next week. I'll get this done. And now, when you think that way you realize I don't know if we're going to be open then, or not, or earlier, maybe earlier, maybe later, or what we'll be doing, maybe we'll be doing new services. So that makes me crazy. But then if I can manage which I realize is a lot harder, and I know I've mentioned this before is to really literally one day at a time with a little eye to the future, but basically one day at a time. It's so much more pleasurable to be in the moment as they say. And, of course, we always said that but when you actually, now this is forcing us to be, and it's a lot harder than I thought it would be, because I can't stay there but I go back and forth. But obviously this whole concept has surfaced for me. It's the concept of time. Like you can't talk in time anymore. You can't be like okay, yeah, we'll do this next month or whatever.

[Rhonda] The future's very uncertain. So like you've said, it's best to just kind of really take it one day at a time, just still plan as best that you can. But with the idea that things are constantly changing.

[Frank] [Sings] one day at a time, sweet Jesus. Do you know that? I don't know that. I know the theme song to One Day At A Time [inaudible]. [ Frank and Rhonda Laugh ]

[Rhonda] It's not that though.

[Frank] [Singing] One day at a time, one day at a time - [ Inaudible ] I think it's like some, it's not gospel, but like I remember when I was a kid like this commercial first -- not gospel -- but what is it -- spirituals or -- and it was like --

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] that song is.

[Frank] I think her name was Kristy Lane, and there was this record where she sang [singing] One Day at a Time, sweet Jesus.

[Rhonda] Oh, wait. That does kind of sound familiar.

[Frank] But I never forgot it, so -- maybe the concept of one day at a time was still something for me as a kid [chuckle].

[Rhonda] Well, now, it's coming back. [Inaudible] ideas in practice.

[Frank] Forced to live it -- with pleasure. Ah, why are we here? To talk about books? [Inaudible] let's just move on.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] So, dare I ask what you've been reading because this week --

[Rhonda] Oh, I'm excited --

[Frank] Are you?

[Rhonda] - about my book today. Yeah, I'm always excited to talk about my books. I'm excited to talk about this one.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] So, you know, I don't know -- is it officially Fall yet? I'm not sure.

[Frank] Ummm. Today is the --

[Rhonda] Well, in New York, in the Bronx, it is a beautiful Fall day. And I always kind of, and we were kind of talking about this earlier, but Fall always puts me in the mood for horror. So I've kind of already gotten into that mode. And so that's what I chose for this week. I did choose a horror genre novel. It's called The Changeling by Victor LaValle. So this book came out and I guess it's very recent -- well 2017 it came out. It's kind of a pretty hefty book, around 400 pages, but the reason I chose this book is because I read another book by the same author called the Ballad of Black Tom. And I don't know if you've heard of it. It's a kind of a, it's a novella, it's very short. You could probably read it in one sitting. It's also horror, but I was really, I loved it. So I was like okay, I've always kind of wanted to read something else by Victor Lavalle, and the title of this book, the changeling, totally got my attention because as someone who loves history, you know, the changeling comes from like European folklore. Have you ever heard of that term, Frank, the changeling baby?

[Frank] Yeah. Yes, I remember in the 70s, there was a movie called the Changeling which was about like it's about basically like children who were switched.

[Rhonda] Exactly. Exactly. So, usually it used to be faeries or some other kind of monster that would switch a human baby out for a fairy baby or troll baby or for something else. So that the people who are raising this baby were actually raising whatever this kind of supernatural creature is.

[Frank] Did you say a troll baby?

[Rhonda] [Laughs] Yeah, a troll.

[Frank] [Inaudible] like a lot of fun actually.

[Rhonda] Well, you wouldn't know. It would look like your baby.

[Frank] Ohh.

[Rhonda] It's the guise, and the term I think for is like a glamor when you, when they put the illusion on their optical illusions so that you're seeing your baby, but it's actually a -- actually I think that was a film, like a horror film in the 80s called Troll, but they disguised it as a little girl. I don't know, that's an aside, It made me think of that.

[Frank] But would they be, they would have malevolence. Eventually, they'd grow to be malevolent.

[Rhonda] Right. It would be, yeah, so they could play tricks, and you know, kind of looking back at the history of this thing, the reason why kind of this folklore came up is for a lot of reasons why a lot of those things came up is to kind of explain stuff that people didn't understand, right. So like if a baby was, had odd behavior or was acting weird, or had some kind of illness that they didn't understand, you know, people would say this isn't my baby. This is a faerie or troll or something. And, sadly, it actually, if you look at the history would kind of be excuse for a lot of infanticides like in the 1700s and 1800s, this whole idea of the changeling. And if you kind of, you know, look at the Wikipedia page, you'll see a lot of kind of interesting court cases and stuff in the 19th century about murders that were related to the idea of --

[Frank] Oh, my God!

[Rhonda] the changeling.

[Frank] So like parents could say, if parents decided they weren't an adequate reflection of themselves, then they and they were too hard to handle. They would just say this is not my baby, it's a changeling?

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly. I think there was one in 1826, Anne Roche drowned her baby. And she said, you know, I was trying to drown out the faerie, and she was acquitted in the trial --

[Frank] Oh, my --

[Rhonda] -- because she said it was a changeling. And another, before I get into the book, one last case I read was actually a really popular case, 1895 named Bridget Cleary. And she was an adult, so apparently this applies to not just babies. But her family murdered her because they thought that she had been taken over by a changeling. And the theory is that actually her husband murdered her accidentally and that they use this changeling as an excuse. But that's kind of a popular story. So anyway --

[Frank] Hey!

[Rhonda] I kind of got side-tracked with the whole changeling.

[Frank] No, Rhonda [inaudible], that's why you're worshiped and revered because your research and history is fascinating.

[Rhonda] Well, thank you. I don't know about worshipped and revered [Frank laughs], but I'm glad that people enjoy my little asides about history, but that you know, that was -- what drew me to the book is I was always I've been kind of fascinated by this whole changeling history and how it's been used. So, so I was like okay this looks good.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] So I have to say about this book, it is a slow burn. Like it has a lot of details and there's like so much stuff happening before you even to kind of get to the horror and the supernatural parts of it. But anyway. So the story is about this man named Apollo Kagwa, and you kind of get his entire backstory, you know he's in New York. He, he's you know raised by a single mother because his parents who at some point were very much in love, his father decided to just abandon them. And you actually kind of really, you learn about what happens to his father later on in the story, that's just kind of one of the little nuggets of, I don't know if you want to say trickery but that comes up in this story. So he's raised by his single mother and he calls himself what's a book man. He's an antique book dealer. You know, and it's the modern age -- he doesn't have like a store. He has like an online store, but he's obsessed with books and with you know ancient books, and antique books, and he makes his living selling these books. And I love the term book man. I don't know why, not bookseller because he calls himself the book man. [Frank chuckles] And he, you know, he gets married and points to Victor Lavelle for this. His wife is a librarian at the New York public library.

[Frank] Really!

[Rhonda] Yes, in the book and her name is Emma. And so they're living in New York City and kind of have this nice life. He's self-employed, she's a librarian. And, of course, to add to their happy family, they have this baby named Brian. And so now it's the three of them. And Apollo calls himself -- and I don't know if this is an actual term, but he calls himself one of the new dads. So, basically, he's the main caretaker because he can kind of take the baby with him to like estate auctions and books sells. And he spends all this time with baby Brian, and he is constantly posting these pictures on social media of baby Brian, and he's just, you know, obsessed with this baby. Takes him everywhere. Posting all Facebook, Twitter, everything about baby Brian. Which is interesting because Emma, the mother, is the one who begins to notice these changes in the baby, and this has kind of where it turns dark. So a lot of the book -- you get this whole background, kind of this couple, and Apollo and then, the mother is the one who begins to really change. Like she's the one who's not eating. She's the one who's really upset, who's really disturbed. And it's all because she's seeing these changes in the baby which Apollo who spends the most time with the baby doesn't even really notice.

[Frank] Typical dad.

[Rhonda] I know, right [laughs]. And he just loved his baby, loves showing off his baby. But the mother is the one who becomes really disturbed and he can see the changes in her. And it's really kind of upsetting to him about these changes. And about what she's saying, you know, she begins to be the one who says like this this isn't our baby. And, at first, she kind of hints to like oh, some of these things are strange. But then she becomes firmly believe like I don't believe this is Brian. And he's like I think you just might need some help.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] So what happens that you know this is like I said this is kind of where it turns really dark is Emma feels like she has to do something about this. So she kind of knocks Apollo out physically with like knocks him over the head, ties them up and she murders the baby.

[Frank] My God!

[Rhonda] And this is I'm going to try not to give too many spoilers but this isn't really a spoiler because I feel like this is where the story kind of really starts. So she was murders the baby and she escapes. She's gone, right. So, what kind of -- so, here's kind of where Apollo's journey, and I kind of call it his odyssey begins because you know the baby sadly is dead. And he has some troubles of his own after that, but basically, he goes on this mission. His mission starts out trying to find out where Emma is, and really it's out of rage, out of anger, because he wants to murder her. Like that's what he wants to find her so he can kill her for what she's done. But along the way of trying to figure out where she's gone, he, you get taken on this journey of all of these like twists and turns, and he meets all these kinds of strange people who start out one way, and then turn out to be exactly who you don't imagine to be, imagined them to be. And kind of closer towards the end of his journey the rage is gone because he's beginning to believe more of what Emma was saying to him about like this not being her baby or their baby. And his mission becomes the kind of find Emma and finds out, to find out what really happens to this baby. And so it's interesting because, and again, like I feel like this book, I don't really want to spoil --

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] -- but there's just so much detail. And there are so many really interesting ways that he is able to kind of incorporate mythology into this book because there are literal monsters like actual, you know, what you would see in a horror film. But then there's also kind of like these figurative monsters like these people who are kind of wolves in sheep's clothing who he thinks are supporting him in his journey to kind of to find his wife, but are actually a part of kind of what I don't know if you would call this conspiracy or this hidden world of the supernatural that is part of the entire story of what happened to his wife and what actually has happened to his baby. And I think even though like the actual monsters don't come until the very end of the book, the actual literal monsters, you begin to kind of you still have this experience of this being a horror novel because of the actual people who are doing some kind of horrible things, but also kind of this psychological horror or psychological experience that Apollo is going through, as well, you know. Just kind of trying to get his mind around the death of his child, this horrible act of his wife, and then kind of learning like really what's under the covers. Like what's out there in the world that he never even thought could be real. And I have to say like some of the things that I really I love about this book is it's so New York. You know, even if you're not a new Yorker or you care about New York at all, I feel like this book is an excellent example of how a city or a place can actually become a character within a novel. And I don't know if you've seen that in other works of literature but really like New York becomes a part of this story. I mean he goes to all different, he goes to Riker's Island, Ward's Islands, Queens. He incorporates kind of like all of this New York history and it really becomes like an essential part of the story. And I just, I love that, you know, having this place like be so important to the story, and the history of it, and the history of the people who actually, you know, who immigrated here. And another thing that I think he does so well is kind of how he is able to weave these elements of the supernatural. And I think this is such a great story for people who want to read horror but don't want to but also want to read something that is, that they feel is really real, you know. It has that those elements in there but it doesn't overwhelm the story.

[Frank] I was going to ask you because it originally set it more like a thriller until you mentioned monsters. And I was going to say for people who don't love horror, like real horrible horror, would that be good for them because it seems to have it sort of historical thriller element to it as well -- psychological thriller element to it as well.

[Rhonda] Yeah, it definitely, I feel like it's mostly psychological horror or psychological thriller, but it does have these actual monsters in it. But it's not it's an, its important part of the story but it's not a big part like you're not going to be reading a lot about these monsters. But they're there. They're kind of in the background, you know, and a lot of it in most of the story you're all, you're kind of thinking in your head like are these real, are these not real?

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] And then it kind of happens. And you know, I guess like another interesting part of this story is one of the things, you know, you get with these fables and these fairytales, and these myths is that there's always kind of a lesson there. And I think he has like kind of these hidden lessons for us in the story especially about social media and kind of what we reveal to the world. And I don't think this is too much of a spoiler but as I mentioned before part of this idea of him being the new dad was kind of documenting this journey of fatherhood. And he's constantly putting pictures of his baby on social media, on Facebook, on Instagram, everything, and kind of some of the people that he meets along the way tell him like this is one of the reasons that his family has kind of gotten sucked into this supernatural world is because when he's constantly putting it out there, you don't know who you're letting in. And I think this is kind of a, you know, a cautionary tale for those of people who love to constantly document their lives for the public, you know.

[Frank] Ahh.

[Rhonda] Like you have it out there for your family, it's out there for your friends to see, and to like, but you also are letting into your life, to your personal life a lot of people who you don't know and people who you may not necessarily want to be a part of your life or want to see these things. And there's kind of no way to control who is absorbing this content that you're putting out there and no way to control like how they're going to use it, you know.

[Frank] Wow. It's like what I loved about Gone Girl is that Gone Girl rooted itself in like a real social time and the ramifications of that time, and then turns into another story that goes off the rails. I mean I sort of love when they root it and had sort of a, if not cautionary tale, but it's sort of like here's a dark side to what you think is just like, oh every day blah, blah, blah.

[Rhonda] Exactly. Yeah. And it's, and you know part of it is when the baby dies, someone, and he doesn't know who starts this Facebook kind of like memorial page for the baby. And he has no idea who's created this page but there's like these certain people who keep commenting you know even like long after the actual story has hit the news. And that's kind of part of the mystery is like who is so obsessed with the story and who is behind kind of documenting you know what's happening with his baby. And they don't even know, you have never met the family, have never met the baby before and he finds out kind of like who's behind it. And they're part of the story as well. But, again, like you said it's just kind of these tales of like, now that we have social, you know we just we don't really don't know who you're letting in or who you're allowing to, you know, it's kind of like you know watching the show Catfish, it's just like people can take your information. And use it to do all kinds of things. So that's part of it too.

[Frank] There's bad people out there.

[Rhonda] There're bad people out there, you know. And that's part of the horror, I think that's part of the story that he's trying to tell. There's the supernatural bad things, monsters, but they're also kind of the human version of that, as well. [Frank chuckles]. But I, you know, again like even if you're not, I feel like this is a book for people who may not necessarily even like horror or like that type of kind of supernatural or fantasy because the story is really, really detailed and really kind of, it really takes you on this odyssey. Like you don't know who people really are. You really are surprised, there're kind of turns and the twist that it takes. And even the ending, the satisfying thing is that he finds out everything he wants to know at the end which I was concerned about. I was like please don't let this be one of those kinds of open-ended [inaudible] type books, but all the questions are answered in the end, and you know it does you know it's absorbing, and I will leave it at that [inaudible].

[Frank] So in other words it's not necessarily like opening up for a sequel or a trilogy which drives me crazy sometimes.

[Rhonda] Exactly. Yes. It's all tied up in the end.

[Frank] Oo, you know, Rhonda, you sell that book as if you were working on commission.

[Rhonda] Nice.

[Frank] I mean you would have like gone home with a nice little bonus from the manager of the dress shop that you're working -- [ Laughing ] [ Cough ] Excuse me. That was really fascinating. I'm -- I can't -- wow. Victor Lavalle?

[Rhonda] Yes. Victor Lavelle. [Inaudible] and he's been writing quite a bit of horror. That's his thing [inaudible].

[Frank] Alright. We're going to kick off a season of horror I have a feeling.

[Rhonda] I think, yeah, that might be, that might be something.

[Frank] And we should, we'll announce it at the end of this one, the next book we're reading from the 125 Books We Love List which also has possibly scary element to it. So, you know, you were talking before, because like I'm always making these connections or trying to, when you said mythology which is, of course, you know perked my ears up because I love mythology. And when you said how fairytales or mythology will have an overarching sort of moral or lesson, or something to reveal as told through the characters foibles and the story, right.

[Rhonda] Mm-hm.

[Frank] And that made me think of something I had thought about the book I read which is that, you know, even with literary fiction, I realized maybe I or most lot of us or even authors do write a book that has, that build's incrementally to some sort of conclusion or a world view that the author wants to tell us about, and that we as readers want to find out about, and then learn something about the world in which we live. And the characters though, while endeavoring to be real, are really in the service of this. And the book I read sort of doesn't do that [Rhonda chuckles], it sort of flips it around and made it, it's harder to read. And also it's very sophisticated and academic. Basically I was decided and I don't know why I sort of find books on this peregrinations of journey of life. And I never know you know what I'm going to feel like. And I don't even remember a couple of weeks ago why I felt like going here but I revisited Iris Murdoch and she was a British author of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Also an Oxford philosophy professor. Her book have always been on my radar as these sort of very chewy fiction stories, novels with the sort of interesting characters but obviously with a lot of philosophy and rumination on the big questions of life and art, and that kind of thing. And I remember in the eighties trying to read her and I was like I can't do it because I don't know anything. And I can't, I'm very intimidated because I'm not understanding what I'm reading. So I decided to read a book of Iris Murdoch's called the Black Prince.

[Rhonda] Oo.

[Frank] And yeah. Written in 1973. And I thought, let's give her a shot and see if I matured a little bit now that I'm elderly [Rhonda chuckles]. And it was tough. It was [Frank chuckles] --

[Rhonda] It was a challenge.

[Frank] I can't, what?

[Rhonda] It was a challenge.

[Frank] Oh yeah. I can't profess to say I understand a lot but at least I, at least I wasn't intimidated. I said you know I'm not going to, I'm too old to be intimidated now. If I don't get it, I don't get it. Keep going and see what you do. And as with a book like this I think [inaudible] satisfying experience often comes after you finish it, and you ruminate on what you just read. And go back to it because then when you're reading it, you're sort of like, ah, I don't understand this whole passage about what art means, but I'm getting the fact that oh, this one a person is in love with that person and they're having a hot affair, that I'm sort of getting through. And then when it's done, you start ruminating over what you actually read, which is actually the point of philosophy is sort of ruminate over questions very specifically on why something is the way it is. And we feel the way we feel. So, The Black Prince by Iris Murdoch does have a very complex melodramatic story which basically has at its center a narrator, a man named Bradley Pearson, who's in his late fifties and he's a recently retired like tax inspector or tax collector or something civil service and but has written a book in the past that was well received but not popular, and has a burning ambition and belief in his own creativity that he will write a great book. His aspiration and mission is to write this great book that he knows is in him somewhere, and retiring was a way of creating time to do that. And so just as we meet him and he's contemplating all the time he has, and renting a seaside cottage in England that he's going to go and be alone and write, and have none of the intrusions of life, and be able to focus on his art, a whole bunch of characters come in to sort of stop him from actually getting there. One of them that shows up at his door is his ex-brother-in-law, his ex-wife's brother who comes to say that his, Bradley's ex-wife is now come back to town after the death of her second husband, and wants to see him again. And Bradley's like I don't -- I, that was a bad marriage. I don't want ever want to see her again. And I don't even want to see you, brother-in-law. But in fact, there is he is. And then he gets a call from a close friend who's also a couple of years younger but is a very popular like one-book-a-year writer that Bradley fancies he was the mentor to. But clearly this friend Arnold is now a super popular author. Arnold calls him to say Bradley, please come to my house because I think I've killed my wife.

[Rhonda] Uh!

[Frank] [Inaudible] another done.

[Rhonda] Right. And so he's like what! What, wait, what!? What do you mean, Rachel? You killed, what -- Rachel? And then he goes --

[Rhonda] What?

[Frank] he goes to the house and Rachel is not dead. But they had a fight and, they were smacking each other around, and Rachel's lying down sort of crying and unhappy. And Bradley [chuckle] who was about to leave for his seaside cottage to write his novel is now enmeshed in this. And then, I even wrote a diagram, about these characters and who loves who, and who's involved with who, because I wanted to sort of see it visually. So I just said --

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank]-- he knows his ex-wife, whose name is Christian, Chris is coming to town, the brother-in-law told him. The brother-in-law's name is Francis. Arnold, his friend, calls him to say come over, I might've killed my wife, Rachel. He goes, and then Arnold and Rachel have a 20-year-old daughter named Julian. Just interesting that his ex-wife is named Christian, and the daughter of his friends Arnold and Rachel have a daughter named Julian, which were male names, possibly.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And Julian's 20, and sort of finding what she wants to do and not knowing what career she wants to pursue. Has tried different college courses, has tried different technical schools, and she's introduced into it. And then Bradley [chuckle], Bradley's sister Priscilla shows up at his doorstep because her husband has left her, and she or she's really left her husband because she's miserable with him, but then it turns out her husband has had, has and has had a mistress for a long time who's a lot younger than her [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Oh, goodness.

[Frank] So, there's that. So Priscilla wants to live there. The brother, ex-brother-in-law, Francis, is sort of hovering in the house. He's got the couple, Arnold and Rachel, he's trying to deal with, and then he sort of starts developing a relationship. even with Julian, the 20-year-old daughter of Arnold and Rachel. And that's sort of the entangled characters we now are presented with. And at the core of it is Arnold's, um, not Arnold, sorry, Bradley's desire to write this book, and be an artist and create the art he wants to create. Yet he's constantly distracted. And of course you're reading it. You're cynically thinking, you know, you're constantly distracted cause you're pretentious and you don't really want to write it. You wouldn't be so distracted. But yet there it is. And he does ruminate on what art is and how to make it happen. Or how to be a real artist. And so that's the story but --and, well, I should say there is a murder, there is a suicide [inaudible comment] and I sort of said, indicated there was an attempted murder as Arnold had called Bradley, and he said I think I killed my wife because they were fighting. And there is a pa-ha-ha-ha-ssionate love affair.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] Basically. I'll just say, well, yeah, it's not revealing -- it's sort of comes almost halfway but is the sort of cornerstone of the book which is this passionate love affair between 58-year-old Bradley and 20-year-old Julian. So take that! [Chuckle] Which also, you know, at some point in that, I was like maybe because I'm closer to the Bradley's age certainly than I am to Julian's, I was like well what is this thing about age difference between people? It's almost like we used to talk about people of different races being in love or same sex being in love. It's like so why, why, so what? But yet it causes a huge amount of problem as you can imagine. Thirty-eight years difference is I guess nothing to quibble about.

[Rhonda] Right. That's a big lifetime.

[Frank] I mean, he's older than Julian's parents, Bradley is, so -- so the notes that I took, and which I never have taken so many notes like five pages of them which were -- like I said, the book as I started talking about, it's not just, is not just this story of people, but the people are, and the people are not used to sort of, the characters are not used to highlight a greater like overarching worldview. There are multifarious and many worldviews or conclusions or discussions you can glean from this. And that I think is core for me of why I found it hard to read 30 years ago. And why it's still hard to read because you feel like you're missing all these, all these points of view and well discussed issues of philosophy of art and living, fly by you and you feel like I'm not getting it because they're so incredibly different from each other. They're not, they're not all in service of one overarching like life is terrible, and it's life is wonderful, or become this. And it's very multiple. It's a multiplicity of very well thought out ideas. And I think that stops us. I mean Iris Murdoch herself even -- there's -- well actually I saw a quote from the book. Let me see it because I wrote in my notes -- yes, Iris Murdoch, in another book, in a nonfiction book about literature says "what we learned from contemplating the characters of Shakespeare or Tolstoy is something about the real quality of human nature when it is envisaged in the artists' dust and compassionate vision. With a clarity which does not belong to the self-centered rush of ordinary life. The greatest art shows us the world with a clarity which startles and delights us simply because we are not used to looking at the real world at all."

[Rhonda] Mm.

[Frank] So what I got from that was that especially that part with the artist shows us a worldview that with a clarity that does not belong to our usual self-centered rush of ordinary life. And the word self-centered rush got me because it feels like that I was reading it like I felt like I had to really slow down and put the brakes on as I was reading this book because it was just too much. Like I realized, we talk about page numbers and how much in a page. I mean the book is 400 pages so it's is so-called long. But sometimes the 400 page book can be a swift, thrilling ride. And other times it could take a long time because there's so much here and I'm absolutely not doing it justice. And part of my anxiety, like I said before we started, going on a hair was like I'm nervous because I don't know if I can ever do a book justice. And I now realize I don't have to go into detail about the different arguments or elucidations that Iris Murdoch goes on about arts and the creation of art. It's enough to tell a potential reader that that's going to happen. And it intrigues you which it does intrigue me about like why we create art, and what makes an artist, then you'll want to read it. And I do definitely want to read more. But let me see if I can just at least point out one -- like quote. Well, maybe not. I mean or a note that I wrote. And then or actually I'll say more about the plot because how it works is that the bulk of the novel is Bradley Pearson's first person narrative of his life almost actually is as if it is the book he eventually wrote that, that I alluded to the fact that he was trying to write this book. In the novel itself is actually has a forward by the editor of so-called Bradley's novel, and then has postscripts after Bradley's narrative from the characters that we have met in the novel like Julian, the 20-year-old girl he has a romance with, and Rachel, the wife of his friend Arnold, who's the successful writer [inaudible].

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] forward, you said?

[Frank] Huh?

[Rhonda] It's a fictional forward.

[Frank] Yeah, they're all part of the fictional narrative of the novel.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] Right? So in other words, what you get is you get you know 300 pages of Bradley's story by Bradley. And then you get these postscripts from these characters that have appeared in the narrative Bradley wrote that really disagree with what Bradley's perspective was, which I guess the point I'm bringing up is that it throws into contrast like who's telling the truth here. Like what is the truth.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] So the whole story may basically use told first person by Bradley, but then at the end, you kind of get the different perspectives that you're missing when you're reading the main part of the book.

[Frank] Right. And you know, I know Iris Murdoch is still widely read is obviously in print. And a lot, I read some comments on Good Reads. And there were some very favorable comments and very sort of like, huh? comments. [Rhonda chuckles]. And it made me think further about the book. And I will say well, I obviously didn't reveal any spoilers about murder and suicide, and really what these contrasting point of views are. I but I did start thinking about Bradley's -- because he just seemed like a buffoon in some way --

[Rhonda] Mm! Okay. I would [inaudible].

[Frank] Even from his own telling of it. And certainly some of the postscripts indicate that. Yeah, he was a pretty nutty guy. But the more I think about it this is what I said before about finishing a complicated book is it pays, or feels, it pays off after you finished reading because then you could start actually thinking of it entire, in its entirety. That Bradley had a mission, or even a pilgrimage, his self-conscious like struggle to honestly delineate himself and others in his life. If you're truly honest or strive to be, you can't help but be a buffoon. Because we are all in a way if we're truly trying to be truthful about ourselves, we'll have eventually comic aspects to you know objectively comic aspects to ourselves like other people could view us that way. If we're truly honest, none of us are these like pristine material intellects that sort of hover through life without being you know slipping on a banana peel once in a while. And I realized that because I was like not trusting the narrative fully about like what to believe again that idea of truth because of Bradley's buffoonery and comic aspect but yet his trenchant serious poignant aspect, because the author was not giving me cues to say this guy is worth liking. This guy is worth appreciating. She was trying to simply say here's a person with all of the I mean it's not as trite as that like all of the array of our human colors. It was basically saying sometimes you're not going to like him. You're not going to approve or you're not -- and then it forces you to look at yourself and say well, am I always approvable? Am I always likable? Am I sometimes a dum-dum? I was going to something else but it's a family podcast. Anyway. So there's a lot in here. And I would recommend Iris Murdoch, and I'm glad I did, even though I feel like you know half of it flew by me. I'm just looking at my notes about quotes I pulled out, just remind me how great she can be yet but how really it takes time to sort of contemplate. I mean like well I'm going to finally flip out on this quote. We are, let's see, where is it? Like fussing through my papers like a like an absent-minded professor [Rhonda chuckles]. Where's this quote, my dear, oh there so many of this scene I wanted to -- [inaudible comment] I'm sorry. I don't even know where it is. [Frank makes silly sounds] Oh, forget it. Actually forget it. I can't find it [chuckle]. It's difficult because it's a lot of it also -- I mean, she's a novel writer, sorry, but has her background in philosophy, and any branch of specific, very specific branch of knowledge can have its own language. And so learning even what she might mean by the word form, like when she says this the word, oh, art takes various forms. We think we know what that means, that it's different shapes, different -- but yet you sense there's a deeper other meaning to it that might be known only within that academic sphere. And that makes it a challenge.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And I think what's interesting about reading books by people who are kind of known philosophers, almost going back to kind of like the experience we had with the Argonauts is -- I don't know if you felt this was kind of like when you go into it, you feel like should I have some kind of extra knowledge that I need to bring to this book with me to understand it. Do I need to kind of understand you know who are these people studying? Who are the names, who are the people they might you know their ideas might be referencing. But I guess with the novel kind of what you're speaking about is really just being able to kind of maybe identify the questions that the author is bringing up, to kind of you know what is she asking us to think about? You know, so --

[Frank] Exactly. And yes exactly. And I know that as studying of authors like this that reviewers or you know academic discussions of authors will bring in outside quotes and nonfiction details of that author. Like Iris Murdock has been discussed that way, as if you need to bring in other sources to understand the novel, the fiction work. And I don't really subscribe to that. I don't feel like you should have to. I feel like, and I don't think Iris Murdoch even intends -- or any author intends -- us to do that. They, I would think strive to write a self-contained work that has all the information in there. Actually I didn't -- this isn't the quote I was looking for before but I just saw it and it's more accessible, but yet when you think about it, not. She says, "Art is the only available method of the telling of certain groups. And the artist is learning a special language in which to reveal truth." That seems very straightforward. But then you think about it you realize a special language, like what does that mean? And you have to think about it. And [inaudible] use your brain --

[Rhonda] Have to use your brain. This is one of those books that left you really kind of still working on it even after you closed it. You're still -- yeah.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] For sure. And I like her, and it, you know for being written almost 50 years ago beyond the mention of newspapers and telephone books, you know it doesn't date at all.

[Rhonda] That's interesting, and I kind of love the underlying kind of concept or premise of this book about this man just trying to you know he's done his duties to society. He has worked all his life. He's going to retire. He's going to settle down in this cottage and write this novel. And then just throwing in kind of all these different elements and ideas. And it's supposed to be so simple. But then here comes all of these different things. I don't know. I thought that was really, I like that idea as a premise.

[Frank] Right. And it's almost farcical in that like there's all these barriers and it makes you work to his creation of this work that he says he wanted to do. It makes you think does he really want to do it? Or does he want to be distracted, or is he truly distracted? And that's actually the whole meat of the book. Is this rumination on like what is art, and what is an artist. And what is the optimal environment for an artist to create this great work. So yeah. This is a lot in there. I mean it certainly can get like dra-ha-matic [phonetic spelling] for [Rhonda laughs]. I mean the characters are just like very specifically drawn to details of like physical details of emotional details that are very precise. And that's and a whole other thing about Iris Murdoch's I think belief that truth is revealed through particularities. Not through generalities that you really have to go very specifically deep into a particularity to reveal the truth and not a fantastical projection of the author or the reader but almost an objective observance of nature. If you can, if one can do that -- that's what's frustrating with philosophy but fascinating is that you can present something like I just presented, like only truth can be found through the particularity of something and an objective view of it. But how does one be objective? Like we're subjective preachers. How do we -- how, how?

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] And that's the question, and that's what philosophers try to discuss. They'll pick one statement like that and write 6,000 page books on it because it's that difficult. Oh, I feel so smart, that's deep! [Frank laughs].

[Rhonda] That is deep. And I looked, I just did a quick look for her on the internet. Dame Iris Murdoch. So she's -

[Frank] She was a dame.

[Rhonda] She was a dame.

[Frank] Ain't nothing like a dame. She was made a dame [Inaudible].

[Rhonda] I know and I love her photo. She looks very intense. Like she's, like she's thinking. [Chuckle]. Oh, but she has all of these ideas going through her head.

[Frank] Like you know, yeah. There was a -- it makes me want to see it because I never saw it -- about 20 years ago, there was a movie about her life because she died in the late nineties, I believe.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] With Kate Winslet as the young Iris Murdoch and Judy Dench as the older Iris Murdoch.

[Rhonda] That sounds about right.

[Frank] And I don't know a lot about her life. You know, she was an interesting, an interesting person and beyond that, and clearly enough to write a movie about her starring two amazing actresses, so.

[Rhonda] Exactly. That. Wow.

[Frank] Yeah. I definitely want to, I wanted to see it over Labor Day weekend, but I didn't, but it's on my list to see. It's called Iris.

[Rhonda] Ah, Iris. Okay. Yes, in 2001, interesting. I'd like to -- wow. Okay.

[Frank] Yeah. Yeah. I'll let people look her up if they're intrigued. Well, that was quite a twosome.

[Rhonda] It was! It was two very, very different pieces of work. [ Inaudible ]

[Frank] We are, Rhonda -

[Rhonda] Just like -

[Frank] [Inaudible] oh, you're a piece of work, Rhonda. [Inaudible] like a Ralph Kramden and Alice. and like ah, you're a piece of work, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] [Chuckle] I love your references. [Frank laughs] you have good ones.

[Frank] Oh, you're sweet. Oh, so, oh, we should probably announce, let's see, the next book we're going to read from New York public libraries 125 Book We Love list is Turn of the Screw by Henry James.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] It's a classic.

[Rhonda] I'm excited.

[Frank] And that will be --

[Rhonda] October 8th.

[Frank] Thank you. October 8th, to continue a possibly creepy scary theme into October. That might not end. I think we're challenging our listeners with all these scary books. But that's good.

[Rhonda] It's great! I'm looking forward to it.

[Frank] I am looking forward to it as well. And then discussing it with you. I certainly - I've never read it. So it'll be new [inaudible] I love when we read the same book because then I get to look forward to see like what will Rhonda say about this [Rhonda chuckles], what that piece of work will say!

[Rhonda] Where will that piece of work [inaudible]

[Frank] You're a piece of work, you Rhonda you. Well, my darling. Okay. So are we good? You good?

[Rhonda] We're good. Yeah. [Inaudible] to see if anyone else has read either of these books that we discussed today. So --

[Frank] Absolutely.

[Rhonda] Excited, yes, so Turn of the Screw, Henry James for the next time.

[Frank] Read along with us, and thank you so much for listening, everybody.

[Rhonda] Yes!

Narrator: Thanks for listening to the Librarian Is In, a podcast for the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York public library and our 125th anniversary please visit NYPL.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.