Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Greetings NYPL listeners! We're glad you're able to join us for another episode. This week Rhonda and Frank read And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie, suggested to them by their producer (and blog post writer extraordinaire *ahem*) from the NYPL's 125 Books We Love list. We hope you had a chance to read along. Now hit play and listen to hear them discuss cancel culture, the Saw movies, and the "dun-dun-dun" music cues we hear in mystery movies.

And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie

Did we get you hooked on Christie? Check out this blog post for more recommendations of Christie favorites from NYPL librarians.

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to "The Librarian Is In", a New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. My name is Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] Yes, you are. And here we are to discuss -- what are we here to discuss, babe??

[Rhonda] "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie.

[Frank] Which is part of the 125 Books We Love List --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -- that the New York Public Library has put out celebrating 125 years of the New York Public Library. And this book was recommended to us by our producer. So --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -- I was like, "And Then There Were None" by Agatha Christie. I've seen that book on the shelf for years. It's almost always on a summer reading list for high schoolers. I feel like I'm familiar with it. I talk about this later, but I thought -- I definitely saw the 1945 movie version of it when I was a young teen on TV. And I had some vague memories of that, which added to my reading of it. But I didn't know much about it. I just -- And I thought like a lot of classics, I feel like I know it. But I did not know it.

[Rhonda] You didn't know.

[Frank] I was -- Just in a nutshell, I had a ball with this book, frankly. And of course, there are some interesting -- very interesting things we will talk about that are interesting, pointed word. But overall, as a -- it was like I kept saying on the podcast, I was looking for and not landing on a fun book that I kept thinking should be something comedy and jokey, but I realized when I was reading, it was like, I was just having fun, and appreciating certain things about it that we can get into. So, the producers didn't feel like she did something terribly wrong. I loved it in a nutshell.

[Rhonda] It was -- Well, so I was excited about this book, because I -- when I thought -- when I think of Agatha Christie, the first thing that comes to my head is "Murder, She Wrote". And so, I'm such a huge "Murder, She Wrote" fan. So I was thinking. OK, this is going to be right up my alley, because I never really read mysteries but I enjoy mystery shows. I like "Murder, She Wrote", I like "Poirot", which I believe is Agatha Christie character.

[Frank] Yup.

[Rhonda] So again, so that's kind of what I was expecting, not knowing anything about the book. I'm thinking like there's going to be maybe a detective, and then this person is going to be trying to solve this murder. But again, it was not at all what I was expecting.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] When I read it.

[Frank] I mean I was familiar as a kid, and they are actually being revived, the movies made from her books in the '70s like "Murder on the Orient Express".

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And "Evil Under the Sun" and "Death on the Nile". They were big movies as a kid. I remember going to them. And they're now -- Kenneth Branagh is now remaking them. He did "Murder on the Orient Express" a couple years ago, he's doing "Death on the Nile", and these sort of like murder mysteries with Hercule Poirot are coming back in terms of a big movie cinema.

[Rhonda] Right, right.

[Frank] And they -- the BBC did a miniseries on "And Then There Were None" a couple of years ago, which now I'm dying to see.

[Rhonda] Oh, really?

[Frank] Yeah. So, Agatha is always around. She's always around.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And I don't -- Like I've said before too, I don't often read mysteries. And often when I do, or when I'm forced to, or asked to, I invariably enjoy them.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And this is supposed to be one of the kind of top selling books of all times, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] There with the Bible or something like that.

[Frank] Do I divine that maybe Rhonda has done a tiny bit of research about this?

[Rhonda] I may have done a little bit. And I found some interesting things out, which maybe we might want to get to a little bit later.

[Frank] Yeah. All right. You don't want me to pump you up too much about the research because it was a lesser researched novel than other books we've discussed for you. But I always know that you're going to do some digging.

[Rhonda] Yeah, a little bit.

[Frank] So how do -- I mean, this is like a spoiler-ridden discussion, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah. We can't do without spoiling the books.

[Frank] Exactly. And this was sort of a read along, so hopefully people listening are -- have read it and are just eager to hear what Rhonda and I have to say. But I was thinking like, even so, how to even discuss it? There's so many ways to start. I have -- I took notes too, just emotional impressionistic notes about it. But I mean, it's almost interesting to start with -- Well, we could start with the poem.

[Rhonda] You want to start there?

[Frank] [Laughs] Maybe not. Maybe we should -- I don't know. What do you think?

[Rhonda] So that's where my research came --

[Frank] I know. Well, do you think we should have start with that? It's sort of a -- It's huge downer to give a little bit.

[Rhonda] So, perhaps let's just save it then.

[Frank] All right.

[Rhonda] But I mean, OK, what we can say about the poem right now is that the mastermind behind what happens on this island is based off of this poem. So that's important to know.

[Frank] Right. I guess -- There you go. Focusing is Rhonda. I guess we could just start with just start telling the story, which actually has a very immediate setup. I think the crux of what's about to happen even, because I kept referring back to this list of all the participants and --

[Rhonda] Right, yeah.

[Frank] -- as the book went on, and there's a couple of questions I have for you as we go through it. And that -- Oh, here. that --

[Rhonda] And I should mention that I listened to this, which --

[Frank] And it was -- which is now, you know, that's fine. I'm not judging.

[Rhonda] No. But you know what, it was great to listen to. The person was an English or British narrator.

[Frank] There was one person?

[Rhonda] Yeah, it was one person, but he was very good at doing all these different kinds of voices. So he had these very aristocratic highbrow voices and the -- you know? And it really -- I thought, it really brought me into this world hearing this and these British accents, you know? So, I thought it was a very good book to listen to. I would think mysteries, in general, are good for audiobooks. But this was particularly a good listen if anyone is interested in and experiencing it in that way.

[Frank] I mean, I'm creeping very, very slowly into the late 20th century. So one day, I'll listen to something. I mean, I -- literally, this is for another time, just streamed my first ever like series, so.

[Rhonda] Great. OK. That's -- Yes, this is for -- that's for another time.

[Frank] Yeah. But I actually was going to ask you, that's actually a good point, because I was thinking a lot about -- All right, Frank, focus. The first thing I was going to say was that on page 28, you get the poem, which has been variously called various names, but in this book it's called "Ten Little Soldiers".

[Rhonda] Correct.

[Frank] And then on page 38 is sort of the kickoff to what's going to happen for the rest of the book. So you get -- my point is you're getting the sort of kick off of the whole story pretty much right away. So, before we get to that, I was going to end your audiobook mention is that the narrator of this book, I was going to ask you, what you thought of and what was the sort of narrator of this book, until of course, the very end? It's sort of like an interesting narrative voice, in that it's, I guess, omniscient, right?

[Rhonda] I -- Mostly. But then you have these moments of we're seeing what's happening through some of the characters' specific point of view, right? Like we see when people are -- Again, like you said, there's so many characters who was I think it was the elderly woman, Emily Brent, you know, talking about her writing in her diary. And specifically, excuse me, when we think -- when we see them or read them or hear them talking about the incident of why they are there, you know?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So we're seeing it from what happened from their point of view. And which I thought was really interesting because one of the things that I kept kind of coming back to when thinking about this book was, is -- kind of the point of this whole kind of exercise before we find out what happens in the end, to make these people aware of the wrongness of what they did. And we kind of get these different incidents from their different points of view. But I don't ever see that there's this kind of redemption for these characters, you know? I feel like this was kind of justice or revenge. But seeing the different stories from the different points of view, I kind of -- everyone's still, even up to their death, kind of really justifies what they've done. I don't know. What do you think?

[Frank] What do you mean justifies what they've done?

[Rhonda] Justifies what they've done in the terms of, you know, the mastermind says, OK, this person did this crime and they deserve to be punished for it. But then the person is saying, you know, there was a very good reason for what I did, you know?

[Frank] Sometimes for some of the characters, which we'll, again, get into, like we're teasing this like it's a mystery itself. But the narrator, again, that is omniscient and you do get -- you are privy to each individual characters' thoughts, with this -- this is what I found intriguing about it, which almost is like the progenitor of all mysteries is there's -- you're privy to their thoughts, and you get the narrative flow, but you also get moments of comment from this omniscient narrator who you never really know who it is. It's just this voice that says things about, like almost judgment. Like for one character who's declaiming something, the narrator will end the chapter saying, "Oh, if that were only true, but he'll find out it's not." Dun, dun, dun.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I mean, I think this book was like the first dun, dun, dun book because there are so many dun, dun, dun moments. Like it's hilarious in some weird in some way.

[Rhonda] Yeah. I know. In those moments, I actually feel like I could hear the music, like this is where the music will go in the film.

[Frank] Oh, yeah. I mean -- And before we start the plot, like there's -- Agatha Christie definitely writes, which I thought would bother me but actually didn't, and this might go along with the craving for a lighter, fun book in that she describes and sets up scenarios with a lot of ellipsis, like basically with a lot of dot, dot, dots. Almost the dun, dun, dun. Like she'll say -- she'll open a chapter with like, the waves crashing on the floor -- the waves crashing on the shore, dot, dot, dot. The house dark and gloomy, dot, dot, dot. Eight people sitting around a dinner table, dot, dot, dot. And then you get into some action. And normally, I'd be like, I want writerly work here, and I normally do. But in this context of this mystery, I was like she -- somehow, that that shortened dun, dun, dun set everything up rather vividly for me. Maybe the concept of the story is so, in some ways familiar, like the sort of gather a group of people in an old dark house is so familiar that we can fill in those blanks ourselves.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But I found it very persuasive and a sort of appreciated brief sort of like broad stroke description of what we're about -- what scenario we're in, in that chapter. So, the story, do you want to kick it off?

[Rhonda] So, yeah, let's talk. The best way to start this, so there are 10 characters, and each one of them -- and we start the story with each one of them traveling to this island. And kind of what we find out during their travel is that each one of them has received some kind of a letter from someone that they know personally inviting them to this island for some specific reason. And when they all finally get to the island, they realized that there's no host, and that they've all been kind of tricked to be here. And so, I don't know if you want to take it from there.

[Frank] Well, yeah. And let's see, tricked. The letter they all get -- What?

[Rhonda] I said, would you use -- would you say tricked or?

[Frank] Well, certainly was a trick.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] The letters weren't real. But do they know that yet? Yeah. But they start guessing something's up because the host doesn't materialize. And some of them get letters from people they know, which turned out to be fake letters.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And some of them get letters from this unknown host for a job or for some reason to come to this island for self-serving reasons really for these people to come.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] So they are gathered, and then a voice booms out ultimately from gramophone record, booms out, and basically names each one of the 10 people present and a cry -- a murder they've committed.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Or helped happened, a murder they helped happened. But every -- all 10 of them had killed someone, or had been involved in the killing of someone. So, that's laid out by page 38. And then they go from there.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And so, basically, I guess to make a long story short is that each of the 10 people over the course of this period that they're on this island began to die one by one.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And they -- the host who they realized as someone named U N -- writes or describes himself as U N Owen and never ever shows up. So they're on this island all by themselves. The only way to contact -- get contact with the outside world is by a boat. There's no telephone or anything like that. And since it's just the 10 of them, they kind of make the assumption that it has to be one of them who is in charge of all of this. And they begin to try to figure this out as each one begins to disappear.

[Frank] Die.

[Rhonda] Or die.

[Frank] Yeah, most of them died.

[Rhonda] Died, yeah.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Most of them died, yes.

[Frank] Well, they all -- Well, yes. And you get an evolution of like the first person to die and then they're wondering, was it a suicide? Did they kill themselves? Like what's happening here? So it takes a couple of deaths before the remaining participants to realize someone's killing them off one by one. And they also do a lot of investigating very shortly, it seems, about that there's no one else on the island but the 10 of them. So ultimately, or eventually, they realized that the killer is one of them. So, that happens, you know, before the fifth person gets knocked off. But it's -- All right. So the people, like so you get these 10 people, they've all killed someone or at least this voice on the gramophone says they have, and asks them to, via the record, do you have anything to say in your defense? And all of them at some point start saying how they were not guilty.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Or how it was a reasonable situation that they were in and they're not a killer. With an exception, actually, which I found very poignant, actually. But the first one you get is this described -- Agatha Christie described him as gorgeous and driving like a beautiful sports car, and he's like a movie star, and he's godlike, and he's young and handsome, and the girls are like, woo. And he's driving into this situation. And he is the first to go by drinking his drink and choking on it.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Which they think later is cyanide. And I thought that was an interesting choice because what I thought Agatha Christie was doing was that she's -- this one guy is introduced out of all of them as handsome movie star-ish. So you -- And I wonder if you were doing the same thing. I definitely, with all the characters, were trying to find where I could be sympathetic, who I can be sympathetic with. In other words, who might be the survivor? Or, looking for where is the romance going to happen? And so, with this first guy, Anthony Marston, I was like, oh, well, he's a very romantic figure and -- but he's the first to die. And I thought Agatha Christie was telling us, you're not going to get romance here. You're not going to get any kind of romantic entanglement. That's not what this is about. And I thought that was sort of interesting to do, and a little like coldhearted and sort of devilish, which I thought was sort of nice in a way.

[Rhonda] I didn't -- I was not expecting any type of romance. Or, actually, I wasn't even expecting anyone that I could sympathize with.

[Frank] Really?

[Rhonda] Yeah, not at all. And I think maybe it's kind of going back to my experience watching these old shows, you know? I kind of thought, like, you know, all of them have done something here, you know? And I thought that it was interesting that Anthony was the first person to kind of go because, you know, the way that he is introduced to the story is he's just like flying down the road. He just kind of flies into the story. And then he flies right out, you know? He's just such a quick little --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- spark on this. And you know, him being young, and this is, again, kind of jumping ahead maybe, .and being young and reckless, and not really aware, having a lot less life experience than the other people. You know, he goes without the most drama, without the most kind of stress or anxiety, but kind of giving him a little bit of a pass, saying, OK, there's a -- you know, he -- what he did was really bad, but he's still really young, and he still deserves to die, but maybe not as bad as the other people. So --

[Frank] Well, you see, I don't -- Day that one more time.

[Rhonda] Yeah, no, I was just saying, so I thought that was kind of what I thought was interesting with him being the first person to go in the story.

[Frank] Yeah. I should say parenthetically, because we're remote and discussing this, like it's so difficult for me sometimes, because I'm a talker, that when one talks, the other one fades out, and blah, blah, blah. So it's like we're not really face to face having this conversation. So, I'm sorry. I'm very conscious of trying to not overstep. But --

[Rhonda] Yeah, it's a new way of doing things.

[Frank] I know. I hope we get back together soon. But there's -- All right. There's a lot -- God, we could -- I never think I can talk a lot, speaking of talking a lot, until I get into it and I realize there is a lot.

[Rhonda] There is a lot in here.

[Frank] Anthony, as the first one, I actually don't agree that he was less deserving of being killed than the others. Even though, I did read, research wise, that Agatha Christie organized the murders by severe -- Well, no, she organized them by severity from most severe to least I think. She killed off the first one as the most severe because he kills two children in the --

[Rhonda] So, OK.

[Frank] Because of its car.

[Rhonda] The -- What I was thinking was the intent. Because, I mean, obviously, recklessly drunk driving and killing two children is horrible. But I think she was going from least to greatest in terms of the actual intention behind the act. So Anthony, obviously, he didn't really have a lot of remorse. But there was no premeditation. As opposed to the last person who dies where there was a pretty good amount of plan -- well, I don't know planning.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] That there will be intention to cause this person's death.

[Frank] Oh, so -- Well, your familiarity with mysteries then, at least watching them, is interesting because you weren't looking for a hero or anyone sort of good. Like you were very suspicious of everybody, I guess.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Yeah. I was sort of looking for a place like -- I mean, almost in a way not because I particularly needed it or that could be up for analysis, but almost because I expected it that there would be someone eventually who'd be heroic. And I have to say, I was -- I had the movie that I had seen as a young teenager in my mind. So I had a vague, vague memory of the outline of it. So I was cleaving to certain characters thinking they were going to emerge as, you know, the winner or the survivor, and I was proven very wrong, dun, dun, and dun.

[Rhonda] So the movie had a kind of different outcome?

[Frank] Oh, yeah. Well, I get -- Hollywood -- It's British, though, actually. But the movie from 1945 was remade at least twice and remade in the same way completely diverts from the end to give a couple -- a female and a male character a romance. And maybe that's why. And the actual killer is thwarted in the movie, and the female character and a male character end up -- And also the female and male character both confessed that they weren't guilty of their commit -- of their accused crime.

[Rhonda] So they really changed [inaudible] up here.

[Frank] Say that again.

[Rhonda] They really did kind of take some artistic license with the story.

[Frank] Exactly, to give a romance, and to also say that there are two good people in this story. So, I mean the -- Well, all right, let's just launch into the characters. Like in the movie, like the character of Lombard, who's sort of this mercenary killer for hire, you know, slightly shady underworld guy, charismatic energetic, he's the only one on the island who has a gun. He -- In the movie is, he says that his brother or his cousin or something was this guy and that person killed himself and he stepped in to come on this trip to the island because it sounded fun. So he was really not guilty. So that's why he couldn't "survive" because the morality of Hollywood says like, you know, if you didn't do it, you can live. But in the book, which is more important, he's just as -- he is this mercenary guy who is out to get people if -- for the right money. And that's how he's lured to the island. He's basically broke and he said, come to this -- The letter says, come to this island and I have a job for you. I'm not going to tell you what it is, just come. And he's sort of like, yeah, these sounds intriguing. And you -- Or I sort of wanted to make him to be the romantic lead because the movie, I vaguely remembered it, maybe that's why because I saw the movie, I kept pushing it on him. But he's not that. But I have to say that that character that I just described, Lombard, and one of the two or three female characters, Vera who's also set up as young, vivacious, attractive in a school mistress see as someone sort of way. So I was thinking, oh, Lombard and Vera this younger woman are going to be the romance duo.

[Rhonda] But it's the exact opposite at the end.

[Frank] That's right, you're right.

[Rhonda] Exact opposite.

[Frank] I have to interject, which we're going to actually sum up later with this -- a scene that -- between Lombard and Emily Brent and Vera. Emily Brent is the older lady, very religious, very moral on her moral high ground like to the nth degree. But I -- that injected -- And I don't think Agatha Christie meant it that way I took it, injected a question of morality that I found very disturbing, and I don't think she intended it that way. It's just in today's mindset to read it was very illuminating. And that is, let me see if I can find the page. Sorry. I have all my note. Where the heck is this? Oh, dear. Where is it? Well, I could say it. They're talking -- Vera and Lombard are talking about their crimes and they're sort of --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Vera is saying like, you know, I didn't -- She's accused of killing a young boy, or letting a young boy drown that she was in the care of. She was a governess of. And it turns out she basically did let him drown, because he was stood in the way of his brother -- her lover's inheritance of money. And she wanted the kid to die so the lover/brother of the little boy, young boy, would inherit this money. Somebody who was standing in the way of succession.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And so she did that. But of course, her lover, you know, knows, he just knows, and doesn't like her for it because he was fond of his brother.

[Rhonda] Right. It was the nephew, right, that she murdered --

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] -- or that drowned?

[Frank] Say that again?

[Rhonda] It was his nephew, I thought.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] Yeah, I lost that. I couldn't remember the relationship. So they're talking about that, but she sort of -- Vera sort of saying she didn't do it intentionally. It was an accident, even though she gets increasingly haunted about it. And then she asked Lombard, what about you? And he was accused of letting like 21 East African tribesmen die on an expedition to save his own butt basically.

[Rhonda] Right. He just kind of abandoned them with no food, no anything and --

[Frank] Right. And he somewhat shockingly in this scene says "Yup, guilty as charged. I did it." And Vera, this is where I really got shocked, though, Vera says without any commentary from the author, "Well, they were only tribesmen."

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Did you catch that?

[Rhonda] I did. And then, that's kind of when Emily comes in, right? And she says --

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] "Well, they're still our brothers," or something along those lines.

[Frank] She says, "Well, black or white, they're still our brothers". And then, she tells her story which is she had a servant girl who got pregnant and Emily cast her out because of her immoral getting pregnant -- immorality of getting pregnant without being married, and that girl jumps into the river and kills herself.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And so, is therefore, because of Emily's hardness and rigor -- immoral and "rigor" is responsible for this girl's death. And then Vera looks at Emily and thinks, you're a terrible, terrible person. And I found that very fascinating because of the morality of all three of those characters and the sort of convoluted aspect of it. Like Vera can say, oh, well, they were only tribesmen without any comment from the author indicating that the author thinks what Vera says was bad.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And -- But I wonder though if the author was responding through Emily, I don't know. That's what I was kind of trying to figure out. Like, was this the -- And also to -- and to that point, I feel like it does kind of fit in with the notion of, you know, the least worst to the worst. Because Emily, I'm sorry, Vera and Lombard are the very last two left on the island. And it seems like they are the ones who have the least amount of moral conscience to them. So they're the ones who kind of have to suffer the most through this. So I feel like it kind of fits in with that concept as well.

[Frank] Well, it's interesting because, you know, mostly the women, even though that's not completely true, are the ones that seemed to get increasingly haunted about their accused crimes, whereas the men not so much. But the men -- some of the men do, but Lombard, to your point, never really second guesses himself.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] He's like a, as described, a panther with wolf-like teeth.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And I think his tragedy -- well "tragedy", in quotes, is that he doesn't win. And I think that's the shocker. In his last moments, he realized, oh, darn.

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly. And you're right. He never ever feels any type of remorse. And he never kind of covers up what he does. Like you said, he's just like, this is I did. I left them to die. They're natives. They think differently about death than we do, you know?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So --

[Frank] They're not as important.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Yeah. I guess I was the -- maybe -- I can't divorce that because of the movie and maybe because of my own naiveté in terms of mysteries, I was trying to develop a romance or a hero in this book. But clearly, Agatha Christie was like, I'm going to devise a mystery were everyone dies [laughter]. And she does.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And in the overarching, which is interesting, story of their justifiable demise, because they've all killed others, and they've all killed others outside of the realm of law. In other words --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- the deaths they were responsible for could not be proven in a court of law.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So, oh, well, there's a couple -- We could go on with more deaths, or we could say, did you ever, since technically everyone listening has read it or not, but did you ever start guessing who was going to be next? And I guess guessing who was going to be next because of the poem, "The Ten Little Indians" poem, or " Ten Little Soldiers" poem in this book.

[Rhonda] I did not actually. And you know, it's funny because I thought going into this mystery that a lot of my kind of mental energy would be towards figuring out kind of who was all behind this.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But I think I stayed very present in the story because I was very much kind of with them in terms of their idea of how they were going to survive, you know, what --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -- how -- what was their plan to make sure that no one got, you know, next. And I was kind of thinking, you know, well, what would I do if I were in this situation to kind of keep myself safe or to stay sane? And so, I was very much in the moment with them in terms of what are we going to do to try to figure out, like how are we going to keep ourselves safe? And then I was kind of feeling, OK, so how is the killer of whoever going to kind of break through their plan and kind of chip them off one by one? So I don't -- So -- But you, well, did you try to kind of figure out who was going to be next?

[Frank] Well, I was a little bit of what you just said. But, you know, this is the difference between you and me. I also was very much went back constantly to the "Ten Little Soldier Boys".

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] "Ten Little Indians" poem, which is we should say on -- in everyone's room on the wall. So it was always there to refer, plus there were ten soldier figurines, and as each person died, one of the soldier figurines would be missing, or crashed, or snapped. So, I would go back to the poem to see like what the next death might look like. And like the first one, it's like, "Ten little soldier boys went out to dine. One choked his little self, and then there were nine." And that's Anthony Marston who choked on the drink. "Nine little soldier boys sat up very late. One overslept himself, and then they were eight." The second one, the maid or the cook dies in her sleep by poison.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] "Eight little soldier boys traveling in Devon," which is where they are in Britain. "One said he'd stay there, and then there were seven." That's where I sort of said, oh, I know who's going to die, because another character General MacArthur, whose accused crime was he sent a young man to his death on a suicide mission in war, because he found out that that man was having an affair with his wife.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And he intentionally sent this guy on a mission that would end up in his death. And it was known that it was a deathly expedition in this war. But General MacArthur, interestingly enough, sent this guy to his death intentionally. So he was directly responsible for it. And the reason why I figured he was next, the third one, is because he starts getting very haunted by missing his wife who he did love, and feeling incredibly guilty and exhausted, and existential about what he did. He's almost like, we're not getting off. But there were two people that died before him. And he thinks, we're not getting off this island. He gets very existential. Like this is it. This is the end of it for us. This is the end of the line. So in other words, he's staying, he's not going anywhere. And so, when I was reading the poem, "Eight little soldier boy is traveling in Devon, one said he'd stay, and then there were seven," I was like, that's General MacArthur, he's going to get it.

[Rhonda] Because he was having those moments of contemplation when he was, you know, sitting out by the ocean, and that was him, right?

[Frank] Yeah. And he was like, I'm not moving, he wasn't going to move from his spot. He wasn't going to come to eat. He was just going to sit and stare at the ocean and wait for death, basically, which is then gets him by being clubbed over the head with a life preserver or something. So, that's when I sort of was like, whoa, but then I didn't really get any of the other ones [laughs].

[Rhonda] Yeah. I think the only one that kind of got, which is, I thought it was kind of the easier one was the, "Five little soldier boys going in for law," and I'm like, oh, maybe that's the justice, you know? Because that's the only one that had to do with, you know, the hanging judge. But, you know, of course there was that -- a twist there.

[Frank] Well, and I guess we could say that's like right in the middle of them, I guess, is the fifth.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And then there were four. So that's the turning point. And that's the character of Wargrave, who is the retired judge who sets himself up as being a little bit in charge of like the whole thing once they all start getting wind of the fact that they're all going to be killed rather than it just being an accident or suicide.

[Rhonda] And -- Yeah. Interestingly enough, when -- at the moment, when I did try to think, you know, who could it be, I actually did expect him the least for some reason. And maybe because she did a good job of him taking the -- taking charge of the whole situation, and you know, organize, you know, everyone have to tell their story or everyone, you know, this is how we're going to lock up all the drugs and things like that, you know? So I suspected him the lease actually. So, she got me.

[Frank] Well, we should say he's basically the killer [laughs].

[Rhonda] Yeah, I know.

[Frank] Yeah, Frank, I know. I was there.

[Rhonda] Not to say we spoiled it. There it is.

[Frank] There it is.

[Rhonda] There it is.

[Frank] He fakes his death. He's basically a deranged person. And he, you know, by the end as an epilogue where all is revealed, and he's basically saying, I was a judge my whole life and I wanted to kill people because it's exciting, and I wanted also -- And he's terminally ill, so he was going to kill himself as part of this. So he was going to have the perfect unsolvable crime basically, which, as the book concludes, he realizes, just may very well be. Even though in the last part, the judge says, well, there might be certain ways they could figure it out, but it's pretty much an airtight thing, which Agatha Christie sums that up as pretty airtight. But as with most mysteries, and I guess, tell me if you have this when you read or watch mysteries, or watch your mysteries, like when you go back, of course, you can pick out all the clues. And I was trying to figure that out when I was going back when I -- So I went back. And then, in terms of the poem, when you look at it, it's like, all right, one choked, one overslept, one said he'd stay, one chopped himself, and one got stung by a bumblebee, one got swallowed by a red herring, one was hugged by a bear, one got burned up in the sun, and one hanged himself. The only one that's not an act of death is one went to law.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] That one is, "Five little soldiers -- soldier boys going in for law, one got in Chancery, and then there were four." And Chancery, I looked up was, is a court of like real estate, of like land ownership, but by the end of its tenure in the 1870s was very corrupt. So it's like not going to a death, where all the other ones are describing a death. The two that you can argue are not quite death are one overslept himself and one said he'd stay. And those both are almost passive acceptance of fate.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's like oversleeping and staying are basically just passive ways of saying, I'll die, I'll be taken. The other ones are active death. So if you look back, you could say that's the only one that doesn't actually have a death described.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And then also she tries --

[Frank] Wait, wait, wait, you're not impressed? You're not impressed?

[Rhonda] Huh?

[Frank] You're not impressed with that?

[Rhonda] That is very impressive, Frank.

[Frank] Thank you. You go, Peter.

[Rhonda] No, no, I agree with you. But you -- And then you're asking if I went back to try to pick up the clues. And I did not go back to the actual nursery rhyme. But I -- But in the end, Agatha Christie does say, here are the clues. And I did -- And even when she said here are the clues, I don't think I still would have picked that up when I went back. And she said --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -- you know, there were three things that said this is who it was.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And I'm trying to -- And now I can't remember exactly because I don't have the audio book in front of me. But --

[Frank] Yeah. I have the book. But to be honest, so the end -- it ends with basically Vera and Lombard. She shoots -- She gets Lombard's gun, shoots him, and then she hangs herself. The last one obviously has to commit suicide because there's no one else around to kill her. But she does it. And the judge is watching from the shadows and banks on her guilt, and increasing hauntedness about her own murder that she committed to kill herself, because he sets up a noose and a chair and everything. So she's like a little bit haunted and deranged, and she's the one that sort of feels even a supernatural element to the whole event. What the heck was I going to say?

[Rhonda] We were talking about clues.

[Frank] Yeah, about clues. And so, then the last part is basically the judge writing out how he did it, putting them at this message in a bottle and, you know, letting it fly free into the world. He wants -- he can't resist, and he says it, showing off that he did this perfect crime. And whoever finds this note will then discover that. But -- And the three clues he says that if the police look for would be clues that would lead to the solving of it. But I never found any of those clues that provable because, one, was the red herring that we should say Armstrong, the doctor, who his crime was that he was a drunk and he killed a patient on the operating table and then got sober and lived the rest of his life pretty straight. But he -- Because he was so shocked. But he's pretty emotionally fungible, and so he was the red herring and that he became an accomplice with the judge, as you find out later. And then the judge killed him, like pushing him off the cliff into the ocean. But what I did find by random, that's what made me think if you look back, a clue that I was very proud of, is that right after the judge, which we find out later, but we don't know at the time, faked his own death, there's four left, there's Armstrong, the doctor, there's Vera, there's Lombard, there's Blore, who is an ex-police officer who forges himself to get someone else committed to prison for his own nefarious reasons, and that person kills himself to. So there's four of them. And the -- when there's four, the chapter ends with -- This is why I was fascinated with the narrative voice. The chapter ends four frightened people standing at their doors, something like that, like four frightened people just about to go to bed for the night and all suspicious of each other. But the narrator says four frightened people. There were only four people. If the narrative knows everything, one of those four, if the killer was among those four, would not have been frightened.

[Rhonda] But the -- But it says four frightened people.

[Frank] Right. Right.

[Rhonda] Interesting.

[Frank] Don't -- I don't -- I mean, it's a little like --Well, and I think it's interesting because I picked up on that, or I was flipping through the pages and I saw that I thought, the narrator who doesn't know everything and gives you information describes them as four frightened people. And if the killer was among those four, which the killer is not, because the killer's death was fake, just the previous death, one of them wouldn't be frightened because they're the killer. They'd be excited or into it, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah, that is actually -- That's a good call on that one. I did not catch that.

[Frank] I mean, I only caught it when I went back. So, oh my Lord. So, yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah, there's -- that's interesting. It would be interesting to kind of go back and reread this looking for these clues that may have come up, because I'm sure there's more than the ones that he kind of -- or that Agatha Christie kind of points out for us in the end.

[Frank] Exactly. Did you actually read a book I've discussed in the podcast a while ago called "The Bunker Diary" by Kevin Brooks?

[Rhonda] No.

[Frank] It's a YA book, but it's -- Actually, it's horrible. It's so horrifying. It's so good but it's horrifying in its execution. It's basically the reason why I've mentioned is I was thinking of books or movies that sort of riff off on "And Then There Were None" where one by one people died. I mean, like the slasher movies, like one by one people die. But usually there's a heroine, usually a heroine, like last girl.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] "Bunker Diary", I don't want to reveal anything but it's intense.

[Rhonda] So it's a YA book and it's similar in terms of a group of people together dying one by one?

[Frank] Right, exactly, in a bunker under -- and they don't know why they're there. There's a disembodied voice and it's very painful, but beautifully written, anyway.

[Rhonda] I'm intrigued.

[Frank] I thought of that. I also thought of the movie "Alien".

[Rhonda] You know what movie I thought of?

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] "Saw", "The Saw". I did like that because, you know -- and I feel like it is very similar in the sense that there's the mastermind that we have who was dying. I'm giving away "The Saw" movies now, if you haven't seen them. You know, you have that one mastermind who was dying. And he -- But the differences, the mastermind in "Saw", whose name is Jigsaw, is his goal is not just to have put punishment on these people for the crimes that they did, but to also make them see that what they did was wrong, and to kind of try to make them understand why it was wrong and turn their lives around. Where in this situation, it was just kind of pure, this is your punishment for this. Like, I'm the judge, I am the jury, I'm the executioner. And that was -- And I was thinking about that throughout this kind of there is no kind of, as I mentioned in the beginning, the difference between that in the saw movie is that there -- To me I didn't really see any moments of redemption. Now, there were people who are haunted, like you said, like Vera and maybe Emily, who were kind of, you know, a little bit haunted by what they did, but still not really saying, you know, what I did was not right, or I deserve to be punished for what I did, you know? And so I thought about the "Saw" movies.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, it was startling about "And Then There Were None". I only saw the first "Saw" movie I think. I unbelievably haven't seen a whole series. But that there was this punitive judge who select to do is his perfect murder, selected people who were guilty but not in a court of law but guilty morally. And that pretty much everybody was, you know, not a nice person.

[Rhonda] Yeah, you know? And they kind of made these various very, you know, harsh decisions on their own or they didn't make the decisions but never felt any kind of guilt or felt that they were above the people or above the law. So, I think that's interesting I kind of wonder what kind of commentary on society maybe Agatha Christie was making when she was writing this, like was there any? You know, it's hard to know.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean speaking of commentary, it's like with the -- Vera's comment about they were only tribe's people, there's a couple of anti-Semitic remarks in this book for sure. And I -- You know, of course as you're reading it from today, I'm like wondering, is she doing this to highlight a not nice person saying this, or is this what the author really feels, Christie, and never apologize for, it's just there, which leads us to, if I can.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Let's do it.

[Frank] Let's -- You're like, let's do it.

[Rhonda] Let's get into this.

[Frank] She's rolling up her sleeves. Do you want to -- I mean let the --

[Rhonda] You are.

[Frank] -- before that the book is called "And Then There Were None"?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Originally, it was published under a different title based on this old children's nursery rhyme or performance.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It was being called "Ten Little Indians", "Ten Little Soldier Boys", "Ten Little Teddy Bear" as I read.

[Rhonda] I did -- Yeah, I did read it, yeah. And then there was --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So from the little bit of kind of research that I did, was in the -- you have already also seen this is that, like you said, it started out -- So the one that we know, the book that we have, "And Then There Were None" comes from "Ten Little Soldiers". And then apparently, in the late 1860s, this was a song and kind of the US, the American version that we had was "Ten Little Indians", but then the British version was " Ten Little N Words".

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And so, the original book, the first edition UK I think was in like 1939 was called "Ten Little N Words".

[Frank] Yup.

[Rhonda] And the cover has kind of you know, it's ten little figures, that I guess the US we would call like kind of these like Sambo characters. But I think in the UK, they call them golliwogs. And then there's kind of like a white hand that's reaching down and like picking up one of these little figures. And I believe the island, which I think was called The N Word Island, and that and the original title was used in the poem. I believe their original film, UK film, was actually called this title.

[Frank] Yeah. I read that too, which shocked me.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Shocked me. I mean, it was a minstrel song.

[Rhonda] Right, right.

[Frank] "The Little N Words". At was like a minstrel song, black face, the worst in the 1860s and before the Civil War, and then even until after. And I did even go down a little bit of a rabbit hole about how it was sort of before the war, it was like this sort of like ha, ha, look how stupid and just derision. And then after the war with the freed slaves, it became more of a warning to white people of like, look, watch out. Disgusting. But, yeah, it was shocking to me that the book, Agatha Christie published this book in Britain under that title, "Ten Little N Words", and how it was too shocking, even a 1939 for American they changed it --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- to say Indians.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which then became also its own issue, because I did hear -- read that, hear, read the Native American population we're like, not good. And then they changed --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- into "And Then There Were None", which is the last line in this nursery rhyme.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And it's kind of -- You know, looking back, so I did not realize, I did not learn of this until after I read the entire book.

[Frank] Me too.

[Rhonda] So I wasn't --

[Frank] It didn't, you know, impinged on my reading of it, until I read about it after.

[Rhonda] Exactly. Because I felt like I -- Because I did enjoy the book, like I enjoyed reading the books. So I'm glad actually that I learned about these afterwards, because I definitely don't think I would have enjoyed the book as much kind of knowing what this original history was. But I mean, you know, it's an interesting discussion, because it's kind of, you know, this book is almost 90 years old. So it's kind of like, well, what do we do with this, right, you know, thinking about kind of when it was written, you know, who was it written by. The time and place of these things always does come into play. So, yeah.

[Frank] That's interesting, because I was thinking of cancel culture, like I was thinking --

[Rhonda] That's what I was thinking too.

[Frank] Just about that when I was -- because I'd read the book without knowing this. And I was like, "Oh, I love this book." And I, I do appreciate its mystery and its technique. It's wonderful that way. But, of course, there's the anti-Semitic remarks and the racist remark, racist history. But I was thinking of the cancel culture because of like, do we cancel this book and, you know? A little bit on Goodreads, people like, it shouldn't be assigned anymore in school. And yet the other hand, one always can think it's good to talk about these things alongside going through a good mystery. But then I also thought like in a meta way that this book itself is about cancel culture because the judge is canceling all these people he's deemed to be immoral and wrong.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And he's basically going to the extreme of cancel culture by basically killing off people who were societally considered innocent, but he, the judge, and we as the reader know, they are not. So, that's sort of the ultimate extreme cancel culture moment in the way by going around and killing these people on his own vigilante, psychopathic way.

[Rhonda] I think that's an interesting way to look at it. You know, no, I understand what you're saying about cancel culture in terms of what the mastermind, the killer was doing. And I also think of cancel culture more in terms of this kind of collective community cancellation of something, which I think doesn't exist in the book, because these are people who kind of got away with what they were doing. And so, then I was thinking, you know, like you said, should this book, because of the title, because of the history be canceled? And you know, it's -- I don't know what the answer is to that question, because on one hand, as a writer, Agatha Christie, you know, made a very conscious decision to use that poem or song, and to use that title, and to call the island that, you know, and we don't know, or at least I don't know, kind of what her personal beliefs were. But then, there's, on the other hand, you know, we're putting it in the time period of the 1930s, in the -- in colonial England, this very aristocratic woman, what was her, you know, if we put it in the time and the place, like is it still cancelable, you know? So I feel like, you know, looking -- with any type of literature, because there's so many authors who are great that have had problematic languages or beliefs. And do we just account for the time and the place, and the historical context, or is it just not acceptable? And I think that's an interesting conversation to have.

[Frank] It's -- Absolutely. And it's one that's being had right now. I mean, you know, I always like to think that we are strengthened by discussing things that are seems so wrong, and being able to do that, and become -- and have understanding. But that's not the result for everybody when faced with a controversial subject. And so, the -- like taking down confederate statues, things like that, like nothing lasts forever, and maybe it's time certain things go away and --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- take its place, because ultimately nothing does last really forever or stays quite the same. So, in the overarching view, it's like, OK, let the statue go, let it be replaced by something else. Why not?

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It causes more pain and joy. And it's like you were saying, like it's a conversation. And I was thinking, it's when the aggregate or a very strong aggregate says no, and then things change, so.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And then, you know, with the example of statues, you know, the statue is gone, but the knowledge and the history is not gone. And again, I think that's another really interesting point to have when it comes to literature in books, because by changing the title and the -- and parts of the name of the island, is it changing the book? You know what I'm saying? Because taking down the statute, it's really not changing the history. But did -- But do these changes of title and other little points, are they changing Agatha Christie's original works and her original intentions? Again, like that conversation, who knows the answer to that except for her, but.

[Frank] I remember thinking because obviously the title and the poem, which is intrinsic to the book, were changed for the American edition and has continued to stay changed, what does that mean? And I remember when I was reading those anti-Semitic remarks, I was actually, to be honest, like grateful they were there. Because I was like -- suddenly the idea of censorship frightened me. And like someone assuming, oh, we have to cut out these anti-Semitic remarks because they're just not appropriate anymore, I was glad they were there because they reminded me of the hate that exists and --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- strengthens, like I said before constraints in one -- in the fight of that, especially since this was written the year we went to -- that Britain went to war with Nazi Germany. And what was coming. I mean, it makes it particularly pointed and infuriating when you read that. And I don't mind being reminded of that. Yet, some people could read it and be like, yup, I agree with that. And that's where people get nervous with the danger.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Oh, wow, we really did talk about books culture in --

[Rhonda] We -- Yeah, we did, we did. And again, like this is just a really interesting conversation. And again, I'll even rock the boat a little bit here. Kind of given the decision to have this on our 125 books We Love Lists, I would love to know if this was part of the conversation. You know, that's something that I would be interested to learn about. And if it was, you know, what was the deciding factor to say that this has changed enough, that it's still -- that this is acceptable now? I don't know. It's something that I think there's no answer to specifically, but it's just a really interesting conversation in general about literature in its historical context and how we interact with it today. I think it's a good discussion.

[Frank] Absolutely, absolutely. And I felt -- I thought the same thing to about like I wonder what -- because there was a conversation of what books got on the list, and I was just like, you know, glad it's there to sort of refer to. I mean, I thought going into this title, it was going to be the most benign, cozy sort of like murder mystery like, OK, and look where it took us.

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly. And it's --

[Frank] That's amazing.

[Rhonda] And it is very dark, you know? It's just kind of this these people sentenced -- unknowingly sentenced to death on this island all kind of dying, many of them in these kind of horrific ways. And not just the violence of the deaths, but the psychological kind of torture of, you know, possibly being next. So, like you said, it was completely you know, not Miss Marple, who I believe is like her kind of like elderly woman who knits and solves mysteries in her knitting chair. I thought this -- It was -- I enjoyed the book, but I also thought it was like really dark, which I like. I like those kind of dark psychological thrillers and horrors, but there's a lot that came out of this book that I was not expecting when I listened -- when I started listening to it.

[Frank] Absolutely. As part of the narrative and also the history of it both. I am 100% thrilled that I read it actually. I'm really glad I read it because it was not an experience I was expecting. And it was an intense, very invigorating, challenging experience. And now the mystery, in a way, I always think of this too, like when I read a book that's been on the periphery of my consciousness my whole life, I finally read it. It's like you finally cracked the mystery of what that book actually is. And now, like before, I dismissed it as just like something dusty and quaint, and it -- there's so much going on here. I'm very grateful to our producer for suggesting it.

[Rhonda] Yes, thank you.

[Frank] Yeah. So, next time we read what we want and bring in those titles and discuss them.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] There will be more from our 125 list, our Books We Love List in the -- down the road. Any final thoughts, Rhonda? Have we shot our shot here?

[Rhonda] I think we put a lot out there for people to talk about.

[Frank] Oh, have we?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] How wonderful we are.

[Rhonda] I think we have.

[Frank] It would be fine like get 10 librarians on an island and see what their crimes are.

[Rhonda] That would be -- You should write that book, Frank.

[Frank] Yeah, I'll get on that.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] I don't think I'm anywhere near as talented. But thank you, Rhonda. It was a pleasure. I can't wait to see you again. I miss seeing you and talking to you in person.

[Rhonda] I know.

[Frank] But soon. And thank you, everybody, for listening, and please stay with us for our next installment of "The Librarian Is In". Bye.

[Rhonda] Bye.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to "The Librarian Is In", a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcasts or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. for more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.