Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Riddle us this— what do *NSYNC, the Backstreet Boys, Beowulf, and the Alien movies have in common? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Except (!) they all got mentioned on this week's episode! Intrigued? Read on...

Frank read the graphic novel version of Beowulf by by Santiago García and David Rubín.

 

 

 

Rhonda chose a short collection of stories called The World Doesn't Require You  by Rion Amilcar Scott.

More things we talked about today:

• "I Want It That Way" by the Backstreet Boys
• "Bye Bye Bye" by *NSYNC
• The Olympians graphic novel series by George O'Connor

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Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarians and the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] Are you honey?

[Rhonda] Yes I am.

[Frank] I'm Rhonda [inaudible].

[Rhonda] You sounded so Masterpiece Theater right there when you were introducing us. I don't know, it's a little different tone. I like it.

[Frank] Well, whenever the producer says like OK, we're recording. I go in like a million different directions and like, should I be a goofball? Should I -- and I actually, because I'm sort of like the announcer now, I get -- I don't know, I just get artic -- I try to be articulate, which I couldn't be articulate with that word. But I don't know. I don't know why.

[Rhonda] I know. It was good. It was a nice introduction. It was very smooth.

[Frank] Well, as opposed to what my ragged [inaudible].

[Rhonda] You know, something -- like you said, you have a little different vibe. Sometimes it's more animated, sometimes it's a little more, you know. But this time it was a -- like I said, a little Masterpiece Theater. I like how you mix it up.

[Frank] Well, thanks for noticing.

[Rhonda] No problem.

[Frank] My attempts at humor and conviviality. So, I'm not even going to ask how you are because I don't care.

[Rhonda] Oh, wow.

[Frank] No, I don't -- it's not -- I'm just worried and I don't know. I don't know.

[Rhonda] Oh no.

[Frank] I don't know, asking people how they are these days. It's just --

[Rhonda] Yeah. It's kind of loaded, right? So, everyone is -- I don't know.

[Frank] Well, how are you?

[Rhonda] You know, like you said, it's up and down. Every day is different.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Every day is different. You know, so everything -- you just don't know what the next day is going to be like. It's just something every day, it feels like. So, it's [inaudible] -- no, what were you going to say?

[Frank] No, I was -- I was talking to a friend of mine and I feel like the one thing that it keeps coming back to when -- for anxiety and stuff like that for me is that we sort of have to let go of an old concept of what time is.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Because when you think of time as we used to in terms of like, oh, I have to get this done by Friday. Or, I mean, there are deadlines, but this sort of concept of -- we don't really know. We don't know. We don't know, like, oh, in a couple of weeks, this will be set, that'll be done, this will be over. It just doesn't work that way. So the concept of time, like as a marker of sort of progress is sort of fuzzy right now a little bit.

[Rhonda] Yeah. You can't really plan like you used to, because you just don't. Like you said, who knows what it's going to look like a month from now, two months from now.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Right. And when you can -- I mean I always try to see like a learning moment in it like the benefit of actually living much more in the moment, which everyone always says, like, oh, just live in the moment or try to live in the moment or be in the moment. But how difficult it truly is and how used to, or I can say I am used to thinking. I think a lot of us are about time as markers of like what we have to do. And now it's sort of not as clear.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But, you know what?

[Rhonda] What?

[Frank] Nothing stays quite the same for too long. So, we will change --

[Rhonda] That's true.

[Frank] -- and things will change, and things will become memory, and we will see what the next challenges in life will be.

[Rhonda] I know. But, we have our books. That can kind of help ground us.

[Frank] Well, we do. I mean, excuse me, I was thinking about just that, of course, because we're always so in sync. NSYNC, I don't how you think songs, I can't sing, huh.

[Rhonda] I'll probably think of something like immediately after we finish recording. Right now, I can't think of any either.

[Frank] What was their biggest -- one of their biggest hits?

[Rhonda] I think it was Justin Timberlake, right?

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And his crew. "I Want It That Way," that was them, right?

[Frank] [Singing] I want it that way. Or, is that that Backstreet Boys? I don't know.

[Rhonda] Wait. Maybe that was Backstreet Boys.

[Frank] Oh dear.

[Rhonda] I'm sure someone will tell us.

[Frank] I hope so. I mean, I can --

[Rhonda] Oh no, I wanted to say this is NSYNC, but maybe that is Backstreet Boys.

[Frank] I mean, NYSNC and Backstreet Boys were -- how did we get on this subject?

[Rhonda] I don't know where it came from.

[Frank] We're like even [inaudible].

[Rhonda] You said we were NSYNC.

[Frank] Oh, right, we're NYSNC. They're past my time. Anyway, I was like 30 when they came out. But no, thinking about. Now, I don't even know what I was saying. We were NSYNC, but I don't know how. But just about reading -- oh, you said we have books. I definitely had a mission in terms of what I was going to read or what I wanted to read next in a way. I was just like, looking for -- I don't know. I was thinking. I was looking for something elemental, something core, something that could tell me something about life in a broad way, like written in archaic broad strokes, but yet within that broad poetry, you find incredible meaning. And so, of course, I started going back to Greek myths, Greek mythology which I love. And I guess I'm talking, so I'm going to tell --

[Rhonda] Yeah, go ahead. I want to hear it.

[Frank] All right. So, I was thinking of -- actually I was thinking of graphic novels and I was thinking of -- is that -- oh, I don't read that often. And I thought of that series, it's a children's series on the gods and goddesses of Greek mythology by George O'Connor called "The Olympians". I think that's the series I was thinking of, because the Children's Librarian had recommended them to me. And if it's the series -- if that's the series I'm thinking of. But I really couldn't find one. So, I would -- because that's what I was going to do. I was like, oh, I read something children's and something on mythology. I remember the one I did read was really good. And it had some very interesting moments to it. And like I said, mythology, which you could say is like written in broad strokes, which is what, I guess, is what I'm saying in terms of like fight the monster, you know?

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And all that stuff. But yet, obviously, within that, you could read so much more like even using a word like joy or a word like fight, or even monster, like what is a monster, like does that represent something else? Does it represent an emotion? Does it represent an actual enemy at the time and who knows? Or one, he would know as a historian, I suppose. But -- so anyway, I couldn't find one, but I found a large-sized graphic novel that looked really interesting called "Beowulf".

[Rhonda] Ah.

[Frank] And, so have you -- "Beowulf" is a -- I didn't do research. That's the Rhonda Evans review. But it -- "Beowulf" is a classic texts written in like the 7th century after Christ. And one of the first [inaudible] English poems that a lot of people read in high school or college, which I did not.

[Rhonda] I read it in college. I can't remember much of it, but I do remember reading it in college.

[Frank] Well, it's sort of [inaudible].

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] So, I look at it and I was like, I want something like this. Like I want to read something that's like gods and goddesses, heroes, fighting, and then seeing human truths within that. And, you know, I was a little reluctant, like yeah, I felt like I knew what I was going to get like, you know, some guys fighting a monster or monsters and ends up triumphant. But, of course, you know, it's not as simple as that. And I should say when I read the graphic novel, which I loved, I wish I had more time before this podcast because I wanted to go and read the text "Beowulf", of which there are many, many translations from the Old English. But I didn't have enough time to read it all, but I did read some. So anyway, where to begin? I don't know?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Where do I begin? So, the book -- the graphic novel "Beowulf" by Santiago Garcia and David Rubin, it's pretty graphic in terms of vile gore and guts.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It was definitely not a children's graphic novel for sure, like The Olympian series I mentioned before. And I get to read a lot of graphic novels, but I haven't anything about art lately in terms of projects of "The Librarian". I love working with artists and I know a lot of it, that's what drew me to graphic novels for all the reasons I just said. So, it made me think of a -- this is going to sound so sophisticated, darling. But about 10 years ago, I remember going to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and there was a gigantic painting by Theodore Rousseau, called the "Forest in Winter at Sunset" from like the 1850s. And it -- to me, I thought of this when I was reading this graphic novel ""Beowulf"," it's like this giant painting that looked like -- When I looked at it, like, you know, when you're walking through a museum, you look at something and if it catches your eye, you keep looking at it or don't. It looked like a big dark painting with maybe a sky at the top that was sort of light a bit, but I couldn't really see -- you couldn't really see. And so, I looked at -- I was like, what is that? It's a huge painting. They looked at the name, it's like The Forest -- I just said The Forest in Winter at Sunset. I was like, all right, whatever. It's a forest. It's dark. It's sunset, so. And so, I kept looking at it. And then I had that one of those moments that one can love so much, which was revelatory. I suddenly saw three dimensions and detail. And I saw within that darkness, all these details that I didn't see when I first breezed by it, because it just looked dark, like all the gradient of color was in a dark, you know, spectrum. So, when I did a -- when I suddenly just like divine intervention, suddenly on a detail, it was like so cool. And it's become one of my favorite paintings. And suddenly you could see depth and you could see detail. And you could feel the stuff that's happening. And that's what I thought of when I was reading "Beowulf", the graphic novel, that I didn't know what was going on at first, like I'm not used to reading panels that might not be linear, or what the actual details of the paintings and drawings in the graphic novel were. And I literally had to start the first 10 pages over like three times because I just couldn't grasp. And then, I had that moment where I was like, whoa, I see a lot of detail in these pictures. And it was sort of like amazing. And -- because I -- like I said before, I was looking for something that was written in broad strokes. And I assumed I knew what was going on like, you know, drama and then mayhem and gore is happening. And it's like, all right, flip the page and keep going. But then I would lose the threat of what was happening and I went back and I saw so much more detail than I originally it seems. So that was a very highfalutin way of saying I'm a serious art aficionado.

[Rhonda] Ooh.

[Frank] And I-- [ Inaudible ] What?

[Rhonda] I was like, you had a close reading of the painting.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] And [inaudible] to do with "Beowulf".

[Frank] Right, exactly. So, "Beowulf", I mean in a raw broad stroke is a -- it's in Scandinavia. Like what was one -- what is what now Denmark and Sweden. Beowulf comes to Denmark, what is now Denmark, the Danes to save them from a monster that's been terrorizing them for 12 years and killing all the warriors and people in the Castle County -- you know, country seat where the king is. And he's going to come and save them. And then, that basically sets the plot in motion and he kills a bunch of monsters. Three, actually that it's sort of cryptic in a way, can be said that "Beowulf" has these three monster challenges. And it goes from there. So, that's sort of the broad, general story. So, I don't even know where to begin because like -- I mean, I could --

[Rhonda] But let me ask you, because, you know, I love graphic novels.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So is it -- so do they use -- for the text, is it actual text from the original text? Or is it -- are they adapting the words?

[Frank] Rhonda, thank you, like, you're so good. You asked the question that triggered what I wanted to say. What's interesting about this graphic novel is that there are no explanatory text bubbles saying, in 7th century, years ago, a Kingdom range, that kind of thing, that sets you up, it's all dialogue, and there's very little of that. It's almost all art.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But there's no explanatory text, only what people actually say. And that is -- it's not directly taken from "Beowulf", even though you could say it is, because there's so many different translations of it that it essentially is from the story, but it's not literal. Because you could actually put like 10 of the translations available side by side and have slightly different meaning for each one of them, which I actually did look up, because the translation fascinates me in terms of who does the translating. So, it's very little text and it's all dial -- there's no explanatory texts, it's all dialogue, and very little of that. So, like I said before, when I read the graphic novel, I went running the -- I went running to a version of "Beowulf". And I couldn't find a famous one. I couldn't get a copy of a famous one called the Seamus Heaney translation.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] He was really famous a couple of years ago. But I did find in the library a translation by Stephen Mitchell, which is the one I was reading voraciously to sort of fill in in a way. Well, not fill in the blanks of the graphic novel, but to go -- I was hungry for texts after seeing all the pictures just because I wanted to know more if there was more to know, because there's some pretty graphic in quotes. Nudge, nudge graphic --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- in "Beowulf". So, Beowulf goes to this country to kill this monster with -- who is named Grendel.

[Rhonda] Yes. Some of this is coming back now.

[Frank] Right. That's a famous name. And then he moves on to Grendel's mother and then there's another dragon. But -- so Grendel is the one that's terrorizing this country and Beowulf comes to slay this monster. So, just like Greg's [assumed spelling] example, I had a note in the Stephen Mitchell translation. Though -- just to read, The Warriors lived in joy and laughter until one creature unleashed his crimes. Grendel, they call that grim spirit, a hellish fiend who haunted the wasteland, unhappy soul and stock the fens. He had lived long in the land of monsters condemned by the Lord with all king's clan and revenge for the vicious murder of Abel. So, it definitely sets it up in a Christian context in a way that Cain, the original murderer, is Grendel is a descendant of. And almost curse because of it. But like in that state [inaudible] of a broad strokes and digging deep. In that statement, in that, you know, piece I just read, just the phrase to me, Grendel, they call that grim spirit, a hellish fiend who haunted the wasteland. That sounds pretty broad, like hellish fiend who haunted the wasteland, right?

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And the next line is, unhappy soul and stock to fence. I stopped, I saw an unhappy soul and I was like, wait a minute, they're calling him a monster, fiendish, hellish, but then unhappy soul can mean so much. Like, is he -- he's descended from Cain. Is he cursed? And that's why he's unhappy? He's not really bad, but he's been cursed and he has to be that? Or, is he just bad to the core? And is there such a thing as that? And it just suddenly seemed -- just what I was looking for in terms of ruminating over words like that like putting into the monster.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Describing the monster unhappy soul. And then later, it even -- just a little later, it said -- well, he goes on. This is really the introduction of Grendel in the book "Beowulf". And he goes into this sort of kill everybody or try to, which is really graphic in both sense, in both the book and the graphic novel. I don't know. Anyway, and it's just --

[Rhonda] So --

[Frank] So, it was just what I was in the mood for.

[Rhonda] Yeah. But he said -- since he said he was an unhappy soul, did you feel sympathy for Grendel?

[Frank] No. I mean, not per se. But it made me wonder if sympathy should be there. I mean, it made me think more than feel. But --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- that's sort of where the graphic novel comes in. And so, the graphic novel also has a lot of -- the way it's laid out, which is took me time to understand. And I appreciated that stop -- that it made me stop and focus on it, like you said when I talked about the painting that it was -- I couldn't just breathe through it. And I really didn't realize I was wanting something that would make me say, all right, slow down, just slow down. Oh, I say this all the time. Because you can get on the major art of the book, what's happening, and then there are these sort of panels that show what happened either the day before or what's about to happen. So, you get this sort of temporal -- temporality when you're reading the book about different timeframes. And it's sort of like, wait, wait, what? And then sometimes you'll get a piece of art in the graphic novel, and you'll have a panel that is showing the zoom in to something very close in the bigger picture. So, you have to sort of -- it plays a time a bit and you have to sort of be attentive. So -- but then when Grendel does -- you know, he's been killing millions of people and lots of people in the country. And then when he finally encounters Beowulf, he does kill this -- Everyone's sleeping after a big party, because they're just like, you know, drinking mead and being warrior rebels. And then it says in the book, out of the night came the dark stalker, the warriors slept all but one. That's Beowulf.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And full will that without God's will, the fiend was unable to drag them off to his shadowy den, wakeful, Beowulf watch for the beast awaiting the fight with a heart in fury. Then up from the more in a veil of mist, Grendel came slouching, which is an interesting word. He bore God's wrath, the evil brute intended to trap and eat some human in the Great Hall.

[Rhonda] Well, are you reading from the graphic novel or from the actual?

[Frank] I'm reading from the book. I know --

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] I'm going to get -- I know I'm just babbling on incoherently. But, I found a desire for the text from reading the graphic novel, like the art was so overpowering in some ways, but I wanted the text to balance it. So, I sort of went back and forth. So, anyway, but then it gets, you know, very graphic. And there are those lines about Grendel. Again, that sort of indicate something other than just pure monster like it describes him as joyless. And then sort of like that word, it made me think about that word like describing a monster is joyless, indicates that he had a right to joy at some point. I mean, it just -- but that's the thing. I don't really know, but that's sort of what made me think. And it's sort of made me a little bit fascinating with them, with Grendel. And so, anyway, this is the weirdest and most interesting and most controversial I've discovered part about this graphic novel. And I really don't know how to describe it. And anyone listening or you or our producers just going to be like here Frank goes again, right to the sex stuff. I mean, I -- when Grendel encounters Beowulf in the graphic novel, which is not in the book itself, Beowulf in the graphic novel is naked, sleeping.

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] Or pretending to sleep. And -- OK, that's fine like, you know, warrior, like there's a lot -- there's a lot that can be made of that "Beowulf", like I said in the quote before -- or, didn't actually, sorry. Beowulf knows how, I don't know, that Grendel can't be killed by a blade, something as mundane as a blade. He has to be killed by brute force. So, everyone else thinks, oh, if I just had a big sword, I could kill this monster. But Beowulf knows that it's going to have to be with his bare hands. So, by being naked in a way is sort of an elemental reduction to like his brute strength in a way, you could say. So, Grendel approaches Beowulf and, you know, the monster -- I wish I could describe it in a minute. He seems fascinated with Beowulf, because maybe he knows -- and this is in the book. He's fascinated because -- He sort of feels this guy is different, like this is the match. He's met his match possibly. I can't describe -- actually, you know what, I'm going to -- I've just decided, I'm not going to tell you what happened.

[Rhonda] Oh, you're not going to spoil it for us?

[Frank] Nope. I'm not.

[Rhonda] You see, I was waiting for it.

[Frank] It's very controversial. There's something sexual that happens. And it's -- I wouldn't say it -- It's like turning "Beowulf" into "Brokeback Mountain". I'm not [inaudible]. What?

[Rhonda] I said, I can't remember this part from when I read it.

[Frank] Right. I think [inaudible]. It definitely is controversial. And it's -- because I read a little bit about it. And it's sort of in quotes, not in the book. So something happens that --

[Rhonda] Wait, they cover that in the graphic novel?

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] Please -- yeah, please ask me if it's confusing, because I know I'm flipping back and forth. So, yeah, and then they fight. I mean -- then they fight like violently and it's not too much of a spoiler to say that Beowulf wins.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It goes on, because I said he has three challenge -- three monster challenges. Anyway. So, you know, I decided, I can't figure the words out. I'm not going to have a sleepless nights, so I'm thinking, did I say something I shouldn't have said? But it's pretty -- It's an interesting moment. And if you're interested in reading the book, you'll discover what it is. And it was slightly controversial. Some people didn't understand why it was there. And reviewers, and some thought it was introduced and then brought. But it's not exactly what you think it is. I mean, there's nothing clear cut about it. But I found it fascinating, again, to use this word I've been using a lot, elemental in a weird way, that if you want to take away the idea of actual like, love between two men, it's not that. It doesn't have to be that. It could almost be a manifestation of this machismo in a way of ultimate -- I think -- to be honest, I think it was tied into Grendel recognizing Beowulf, like Grendel, this horrible monster, recognizing Beowulf he's met his match. And there's something very, very exciting about that. This is really exciting and challenging and new that it's just another manifestation of this -- heightens of masculinity going at it.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And, you know, you also bring up the point that I often find that, you know, the villains, the monsters, the bad people are sometimes a lot more interesting than the protagonist, you know?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Those are the people that you want to know more about.

[Frank] Yeah, there's some -- that's the thing. There's so much here, like there's so much more to the graphic novel in terms of what happens that -- but obviously, critics through the ages have focused on Grendel too, because it's such a fascinating, you know, fight in the book. And I should say for -- you might be [inaudible] by this, and I will reveal that Grendel and Grendel's mother -- and to a lesser extent the dragon that appears later are very much remind me of the alien movies.

[Rhonda] Really? As in -- In what way?

[Frank] Well, you know, the alien movies, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Frank] Yeah, like Sigourney Weaver. In the way they look.

[Rhonda] Oh, from the graphic novel, the way they look?

[Frank] Yeah, yeah.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] All right, yeah.

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] Thanks keeping me on track. In the graphic novel, he's not really described in the book, Grendel, just being big and fierce and scary.

[Rhonda] So artists could take a kind of a lot of artistic license, artistic license with that?

[Frank] Yup, exactly. I mean, there have been renditions of Grendel throughout years. And this one, it's very much alien. And it did make me think a little bit about the battle between the alien and Ripley in those movies, in the Alien movie how obviously they were fighting. This really does complement what I said before about Beowulf and Grendel. That Ripley and the alien, you know, clearly didn't love each other. But they were inextricably bound to each other. And to the point where by the third movie in the Alien series, Ripley says, like, I don't remember a time in my life without the alien in my life, which can sort of segue into a feeling of love, but obsession or just your my -- it, your it for me. Like alien, you're it for me because I'm battling you for the rest of my life. Not that it's love, but it's this complicated thing of were inextricably bound which can be a romance.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And it has become her purpose.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] You know? That's what is driving her day today, this confrontation with this alien.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And that driving force can have a lot of emotions to it.

[Rhonda] Oh yeah.

[Frank] So anyway, the thing -- the final thing is that between the period of time that Beowulf as a young man destroys Grendel and Grendel's mother, which is in a whole other story. Fifty years passed before he has his final challenge with the dragon. And in the graphic novel, the way that time period is -- shown to pass is on one page, there's two large panels with the young Beowulf after lots of mayhem and killing collapses in his throne. He goes back home and says, their monster is gone. Meaning -- and he's back between --

[Rhonda] It's over.

[Frank] -- Denmark's -- monsters are gone. And then the next panel is 50 years later with an older, old Beowulf saying, yet monsters remain.

[Rhonda] Ooh.

[Frank] I thought that was so poignant and upsetting and like you battle just in terms of the world, probably at any given time, but it seems like especially now you battle one monster, there's another monster.

[Rhonda] Exactly. There will always new monsters to battle.

[Frank] Right. And like the -- Rhonda, fabulousness when you just said about Ripley and alien that it was her mission whether she liked it or not to pursue the alien. It -- Beowulf's sad mission -- sad the prideful mission is to battle monsters.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And what it must be like to have your job, your mission, being to battle monsters like in that 50-year elapse that the graphic novel shows from like, well, there are monsters gone but yet monsters remain. And that is my job to go after monsters. And there's something, you know, masculine, macho and strong about that. But also something very sad and sort of like, can you extricate yourself from that battle? Like, can you take yourself out, Beowulf, from that battle and just, you know, settle down?

[Rhonda] Yeah. And I also think it's interesting that to have a text like that adapted into a graphic novel. Because I think one of the challenges, also one of the things that I enjoy about the graphic novels is that a lot of times you do kind of have to use your own mind to fill in parts of the story, because they can only put so much into these different panels. And they expect you to make the leap between kind of what's happening from panel to panel to put the whole story together. So, you really are putting a lot of yourself into graphic novels when you're reading them because there is an element of kind of having to fill in when there's not a lot of text. So, I think kind of taking this type of work and putting it in graphic novel form is also really interesting.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely going to finish the book, because I didn't get to, but I read a bunch of it. And it's not as hard as we think it would be. It's actually quite beautiful and swift moving and visceral. So, I've just been talking forever. I always think I'm never going to have enough to say and then I go on and on. The last thing I'm going to say is the cover of the graphic novel "Beowulf" by Santiago Garcia and David Rubin is a beautiful illustration of Grendel, but there's also a super imposition of Beowulf on Grendel's face. Well --

[Rhonda] Does that mean --

[Frank] -- read the book and discover.

[Rhonda] Oh, OK.

[Frank] Anyway --

[Rhonda] Well, very interesting.

[Frank] Thank you [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Speaking of cover, that's really interesting that you ended on that note.

[Frank] Thank you.

[Rhonda] Because the reason I actually chose the book that I chose, you were looking for something, you had a desire to kind of read a certain type of work. And I actually chose this book because of the cover art. I just thought it was so -- I don't know. So, it's really just a drawing of this man who's kind of leaning against something. Like it could be a door, but it's just such a really wonderful -- it looks like it's a painting. The cover art is by -- his name is Steve Attardo. And I just looked at this painting of this person, and I was like, well, what is this? And so, the book is called "The World Doesn't Require You" and it's by Rion Amilcar Scott. It's a really new book. It's 2019 and is actually a collection of short stories, which really made me happy, because I love a good short story collection. So -- and it's really new. I think I just said that, 2019.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] It actually won the PEN/Robert W. Bingham Prize. I'm not sure exactly what that is, but sounds impressive.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] So, it's a collection of short stories. And to kind of give you the background of this collection. So, all of the stories in this book are set in this one fictional town called Cross River, Maryland. And so, this is the place that really ties everything together out of the stories are different. And Cross River has this, you know, really special history. It was founded by the slaves. They call it the great insurrection, the slaves that did great uprising and freed themselves and kind of took over this area of Maryland and made it their own. So that's kind of the background of Cross River, Maryland. And there's three parts of this place that are really important to all of the different stories. So, there's Cross River, which is the main city, and that's kind of the city and it's a predominantly black area. These are the descendants of the great insurrection. And then there is the place called Port Yooga, which is a very kind of -- this is where the kind of white conservative live -- conservative people live. And then there's this area called the Wildlands. And this is like this protected or I guess, preserved forest or woodlands that are part of it. So, all of these stories are connected to one of these three places.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] So, I'm going to focus really on one story and then kind of talk maybe, you know, how that kind of relates to the other ones. But this is the story that really kind of stood out to me and really impacted me.

[Frank] Rhonda, let --

[Rhonda] And --

[Frank] -- let me ask you quickly, sorry.

[Rhonda] Sure.

[Frank] Is it one of those collections where the characters in one story reappear another story?

[Rhonda] So, I have actually only seen that it does happen and I've only seen it maybe once or twice. But there are a couple of instances where another person will pop up. But you could read the stories, you know, independently and not being confused or have to know what happened in another story.

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] Yeah. But because there are -- you know, they're all connected to this one area, you know, sometimes some references will come up. But you can still read the stories independently and not be confused. Yes, so the story that I -- that stuck out to me. So the first word of the story I can't say on the podcast, but it's the N word. So, the N word, right. And the second word is knockers as in like, knocking on the door.

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] OK. So, it's the N word knockers. And it's set in present day. And which is important because some of these stories kind of they across time. So, the main character that -- who is telling us this story is this man named Deez. And the way we are kind of introduced to Deez is that, you know, he's at home after a long day of work. And whatever his job is or whatever his life is like, it completely has kind of destroyed his humanity. He talks about, you know, his brain has been liquefied. He describes himself as zombified. He uses the term a slack jawed demon. So, he's kind of just like, you know, sitting in front of his couch, probably having, you know, a mi -- after doing a mindless job all day. And he's just, you know, a vegetable in front of the TV. And he's there. And then he receives like this knock on his door. And he goes and he answers the door and no one's there. And he goes and sits down and someone knocks again. And so, they do this a couple times and finally gets his friend, best friend from when he was a child named Tyrone is there. And Tyrone has been kind of like teasing him by knocking on the door and running away. So Tyrone, it just kind of pops up and he -- after years and Deez is kind of saying, well, you know, what are you doing here? What do you want? And Tyrone is like, well, I'm a PhD candidate. And I have written this dissertation. And their dissertation is called, again, the N word, N word knocks, a brief cultural history. And Deez is like, well, what is this? You know? So, the dissertation is this. You've heard -- but most people call it, this is game called ding-dong-ditch. You know what that is, right?

[Frank] Yeah, uh-huh.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Where you run, you know, people go knock on the door, and then you run and someone answers in there like --

[Frank] We used to call it ring and run.

[Rhonda] Ring and run, right? There's a lot of names for it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So ding-dong-ditch, ring and run and another term for it N word knock. I have actually heard it called that --

[Frank] Never heard of that.

[Rhonda] -- out before this book. Yeah, I don't think, you know, it's widely known as that. But I have heard that term before. So, his dissertation is saying that that game ding-dong-ditch or ring and run. It comes from the fact that slaves used to do this as a method to free themselves or to run away. Like they would ring the doorbell or knock on the door of the slave owner, and that person would answer. And then they would like run into the back of the house, take things that they needed and run away.

[Frank] Oh my god.

[Rhonda] So, that's what they're saying. And then the other part of his dissertation is that knock, knock jokes were also part of the slave rebellion in terms of they would say a knock, knock joke to the slave owner, and the other slaves who were listening would hear coded messages and be able to use those messages to, you know, find places on the underground railroad or runaway to freedom. So that's the basis of his dissertation.

[Frank] Oh my -- so, this is the -- what's his name again?

[Rhonda] Tyrone.

[Frank] Yeah. Who he's telling his friend about his dissertation?

[Rhonda] Right? He brings the dissertation to him and asked him to read it.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] And so, at first -- yeah, Deez is like, this sounds stupid. I don't think -- you know, I don't believe any of this, whatever, but I'll read it anyway. So, he reads the dissertation. And he become -- he thinks this is the most, you know, mind blowing historical research and revelations that were ever, ever written, right? And he kind of becomes obsessed with this work. And he tells Tyrone, and Tyrone is saying, well, you know, this is -- I need to go do field work now. Like I've done all the kind of sitting down and reading and doing my history, but we need to do this field work. Do you want to come with me? And Deez is like, well, what do we have to do? And he says, we're going to go N word knock, we're going to ding-dong-ditch, right? So --

[Frank] Really?

[Rhonda] Yeah. So they started out. Sorry.

[Frank] Is it -- I'm actually getting -- I'm getting scared a little bit. Is it -- All right, you -- go on.

[Rhonda] I'm going to spoil it, so.

[Frank] All right. What -- announced that just for anyone's listening. This is one story though.

[Rhonda] I'm going to spoil the story.

[Frank] It's one of the stories in the book, you know.

[Rhonda] But here -- one of the stories. Yeah. So, I'm only spoiling one of the stories, but you probably -- it's still worth reading even knowing the end.

[Frank] All right. I'm [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Am I making you nervous?

[Frank] A little bit, because I don't know where this is going.

[Rhonda] I know, right? So -- and I didn't either. That's why I chose this story because that's kind of the feeling that I got when I was reading it. And so, they start out in their own neighborhood and kind of, you know, bring and run on their own, their high school friends and their old friends. And get a good kick out of it. And then, of course, Tyrone says, listen, we have to up the ante. We have to go to Port Yooga. And as I mentioned before, that's the kind of white conservative part of Cross River. And at first, you know, Deez is kind of like, I don't know about this. You know, this sounds dangerous. And so, what they do is they really sit down and they make all these kind of escape plans. They know what they're getting into. They know they're kind of really putting their own lives in danger to ding-dong-ditch in this part of their city. So, they make all these getaway plans. They figure out where they're going to park the cars. They can run to it.

[Frank] I'm like biting my nails like listening to you.

[Rhonda] Oh biting your nails.

[Frank] You're on fire, Rhonda. All right, keep it going.

[Rhonda] OK. So then they go. I know I'm just kind of explaining the story, but I feel like it's important.

[Frank] It's very exciting.

[Rhonda] So, they go and they do it. And they do it a couple of times. And they -- there's some really, really close calls. But they get away. But here's what happens. So, there's a young man and I have to just refer to the story again. His name is Immanuel and he lives in Port Yooga, one of the very, very few black families.

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] And I'm actually going to read this passage.

[Frank] Please.

[Rhonda] You cannot stand what has happened to poor Emanuel. So, he's a teenager and it says annoyed and tired. He placed his backpack on the ground to ease the weight behind him almost as soon as he started banging. So Emanuel is locked out of his house in Port Yooga, and he's trying to get in his house. So he's banging on the door. So, it says almost as soon as he started banging, Emanuel heard shouting. He turned slowly to see five men approaching. He recognized them as his neighbors and his tension eased. Mr. Thomas, Emanuel said, can I use your -- don't move kid, Mr. Thomas shouted. He looked at Immanuel with no recognition even though Immanuel had lived in a neighborhood for each one of his 16 years. He played with Mr. Thomas's kids. Once he washed his neighbor's cars for extra crash and ended up scratching Mr. Pickering's pink Pontiac. Now, his neighbors watched him with stone eyes. Their faces glowed blue beneath the porch lights. Their mouths grew animated in rage and vulgarity. In the newspaper, the three neighbors who offered a comment, Mr. Pickering among them said they had never seen Immanuel before. Immanuel's neighbors marched on him, petitioners protesting his existence. Immanuel ran for his life, Immanuel ran, left his bag right there on his porch and Immanuel ran to the streets as the men chased him. Help me, he cried, someone please help me. So because of their antics, this man -- this young boy Immanuel was beaten, like within an inch of his life, and he was the one who was arrested and charged with, you know, trying to -- breaking and entering. And his white neighbors who were beating him, nothing happened to them because they were saying this is the guy who's been going around and kind of harassing the neighborbood.

[Frank] Doing the ring and run. OK.

[Rhonda] Yes. So, this kind of the result of their antics. And this is kind of where the story gets really interesting because Tyrone who wrote this is like devastated that he has called this. And he joins all of the protests -- and this actually, this came out last year, but, you know, it kind of mirrors what's happening now with the George Floyd protest, it becomes this uprising. And Tyrone is joining this, but Deez, who we start the story with, can't let go of this ding-dong-ditch, this N word knocks dissertation. Like as you said, like with Beowulf within his purpose, this just dissertation is history kind of becomes his obsession. And despite all of the trouble that they cause and all the uprisings in the protests that are happening, he won't let this go. So, Tyrone who feels so guilty goes to the family and admits like I did this. He doesn't, you know, say anything about Deez, but he admits his own part of this. And then he finally admits to Deez that he made everything up. So, his entire dissertation was kind of this just thumbing his nose at the academic community, kind of saying, you know what, people will believe anything that's kind of written in the scholarly manner. So, they did this and everything that Tyrone has written is completely fiction. So, interestingly enough, Deez still won't let this go. And he kind of ignores the fact that Tyrone is saying, you know, this is fake, you know, I made all this stuff up. And he is saying like, no, no, let's just do a little bit more research. How about I write a chapter for your dissertation, or I have ideas on this, or we can include Immanuel' story in the dissertation. Let me write this chapter. And Tyrone takes all of the copies of his dissertation and burns them. But Deez doesn't let it go. And so at the end, what we see Deez's doing is he's trying -- and you kind of get the feeling that Deez had this kind of meltdown, that because of where he started with his life, kind of -- I don't want to say meaningless, but you know, being the zombie. This is something that kind of gave him purpose, but he's kind of already had this mental break. And so, when he writes this down to kind of rewrite this dissertation, he talks about -- you know, he's kind of saying like, I'm going to work on this, but everything that he's writing is just kind of nonsensical mumbo jumbo. He's just kind of like randomly putting words on the page. So he's kind of been broken. And you don't know if he was already that way before this started, or if it is all the stuff that happened to him. But even though there's these things that are happening, these real causes that he kind of attached himself to, for some reason, he's become obsessed and is attached himself to this fictional history that was brought to him.

[Frank] Oh my god.

[Rhonda] I know. And one of the things he talks about when he's reading the dissertation, he says -- you know, because they used to do this as a kid, they used to play this game. He goes, I was participating in a tradition of rebellion, the same tradition of rebellion that led to the abolition of slavery. So, maybe that kind of gives a hint to why he thought that this was such an important work, and why this has kind of become his new life's work and his new purpose. And he can't let it go even after he realizes all the trouble that is caused and the fact that it's completely made up.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. So, you know --

[Frank] Yeah. Well, I don't know, that -- god, there's so much there. It almost -- I haven't seen it, but it almost seems like it could be an episode from "The Twilight Zone".

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Jordan Peele of "Twilight Zone". You know, Jordan Peele did get out [inaudible] --

[Rhonda] Yeah. OK.

[Frank] But also like what it says about truth and facts. But truth -- that's actually very disconcerting. Because I was like, oh, I believe that. I was already thrilled to learn a fact about knock, knock jokes and that kind of thing.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Like horrible origin stories can trickle down to like kid's games.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And then you tell me it wasn't true. And Tyrone's an interesting character like what his deal is there? But for -- what's his name? Dee, Dee?

[Rhonda] Deez. D-E-E-Z.

[Frank] OK. Deez. And for him, like, his mission is created by a lie. And that's like -- that's the debate like, you know, is it worth it if it's created by a lie, even though the ultimate mission might be a valiant one? I don't -- wow.

[Rhonda] Yeah. It's --

[Frank] This is quite a story.

[Rhonda] It was quite a story. And like you said, there's so much to kind of unpack. And, you know, again like Tyrone who kind of just using this as his way to rebel in his own way against the academic world, against academia. And Deez who even with the truth, like this kind of has become his truth, and his delusions, he just can't let it go. He can't accept it, that it's not true, that whatever he -- that he's attached this purpose -- his purpose to this story and maybe he believes that he has no other purpose outside of this. And he can't go back to being zombified and being this brain dead person who comes home from work every day. So, like I said, I can go on and on. But I want to talk a little bit, you know, about the rest of the book.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So, just -- so that's an example of the story. But, you know, one of the things that I'm really pleased about with this collection, and I said that you can read the stories individually. But they are all -- and they're very different stories. He writes across genres. He writes in different styles, but he -- they're all tied together through Cross River. And it's so interesting because you really feel like you get to know this place, you feel like this is like a real place like Cross River, Maryland, because he's so good at incorporating this history and he's so good at this kind of world building, which is -- I believe, usually a term that's used for science fiction.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And there are stories in this book that definitely fall into the category of science fiction.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] But you understand with the neighborhoods are like. And each kind of part of the neighborhood have their own set of stories. And there's this, as I mentioned, a place called the Wildlands, which is like this protected forest. And all the stories that kind of centered around this have a certain mythology. And they get kind of dark, but they're very kind of Shirley Jackson-esque. There's a story that's called "The Loudness of Screechers". And the screecher is this bird that lives in the Wildland. And every so often, it will leave the Wildlands, and it will just kind of terrorize the community and tell the community, give them a sacrifice. And I won't tell you what kind of sacrifice they give them -- [ Inaudible ]

[Frank] Oh my god.

[Rhonda] You can kind of imagine what the sacrifice is.

[Frank] God [inaudible] dark, dark people run.

[Rhonda] I know, we -- and I love it. We research their stories.

[Frank]Oh my god.

[Rhonda] And there's like these women that come out of the actual river, Cross River, who are like sirens, I guess, you know, like from the Odyssey [phonetic].

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] People [inaudible] from the dead. But there's also, you know, like I said, there's a story about a robot uprising. I mean, these stories really do kind of cross all genres, but they are so tied together by this place that it really grounds it. And it's like they spend time pierce their stories from the '40s, stories from the future. Most of it is set in kind of the present day. But --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And then again, like this academia thing kind of comes up again also. There's this historically black college in Cross River called Freedman's University. And actually, that's where Tyrone attends, so you kind of see that. And, you know, there's another story that's kind of long, almost a novella about these professors who kind of start their underground University of Freedman's, teaching these very kind of strange topics like studies on loneliness and isolation. It's very interesting.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] Yeah. It's -- There's a lot to unpack in all of these different stories.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And I would recommend if someone's reading this to read it straight through.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Even though you [inaudible] individually, but just to see kind of to understand the history of this place, and of these people. And the writing is excellent. It's really, really high quality writing, so. So yeah.

[Frank] [Singing] You better call Tyrone.

[Rhonda] There you go. Yes.

[Frank] But you can use my phone.

[Rhonda] Best line Frank. That's the best line.

[Frank] All right, you -- the title is great. It's You Are Not Required?

[Rhonda] No, "The World Doesn't Require You".

[Frank] Oh, and it --

[Rhonda] And it comes from the last story in the book.

[Frank] And the author again?

[Rhonda] Rion spelled R-I-O-N Amilcar Scott.

[Frank] Rhonda, you sold that.

[Rhonda] I sold it.

[Frank] I feel like you were going to make a commission.

[Rhonda] Good.

[Frank] That was so much. I thought I was going to nail it with Grendel and violence but I'm, phew, you blew me out of the water, honey. It's not a competition.

[Rhonda] Not a competition, Frank. So this book was very exciting to me.

[Frank] And I love that you picked it -- Say it again?

[Rhonda] I said I was excited to talk about this.

[Frank] Well, clearly. Yeah, after a while, it's like she's like guzzling coffee, because she's just like crystal. You were like on it, but -- yeah, and you just -- you're attracted to it by the cover?

[Rhonda] Yeah, by the cover.

[Frank] I didn't even see it. This is so cool. Thank you. Wow, that was really -- oh, well OK. We should actually come full circle, because I noticed that the producer just had messaged us that "I Want It That Way" is by the Backstreet Boys, NYSNC sang bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.

[Rhonda] Ah, OK, thank you.

[Frank] It's actually -- I guess it's perfect to say goodbye.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Did you have anything else to add my darling?

[Rhonda] I didn't.

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] I think that that covers it, you know.

[Frank] It was a pleasure because you really sort of, I don't know, galvanize -- I feel energized now.

[Rhonda] Good.

[Frank] That was a great storytelling too.

[Rhonda] Oh, thank you.

[Frank] Maybe we should do audio books.

[Rhonda] That would be fun. That could be a side gig, a side hustle.

[Frank] You should -- Why not? It sounds --

[Rhonda] Why not?

[Frank] I feel like your startup is eclipsing mine, but that's fine. No, it's a competition.

[Rhonda] No, it's not a competition.

[Frank] Baby, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. You want to call it quits?

[Rhonda] I don't know any other words to that [inaudible] bye, bye, bye, bye.

[Frank] Actually, the producer should probably message us the lyrics, but I think we've gone on long enough or at least I have. All right, my dear. Well, I guess till next time, right?

[Rhonda] Well, next time.

[Frank] Thanks, everybody for listening and stay well.

[Rhonda] Goodbye.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast with the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.