Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Listen on Google Play

Oh, hi there!  *Whew,* is it hot in here, or is it just the steamy romance between Elle and Malcolm in our latest book club read? Did you get a chance to light a candle, pour some wine, and snuggle up to read along? Click play above to listen in on Frank and Rhonda's lively discussion of An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole. Leave a comment below to let us know what you thought! 

An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

---

How to listen to The Librarian Is In

Subscribing to The Librarian Is In on your mobile device is the easiest way to make sure you never miss an episode. Episodes will automatically download to your device, and be ready for listening every other Thursday morning

On your iPhone or iPad:
Open the purple “Podcasts” app that’s preloaded on your phone. If you’re reading this on your device, tap this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass in the app and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.”

On your Android phone or tablet:
Open the orange “Play Music” app that’s preloaded on your device. If you’re reading this on your device, click this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass icon and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.” 

Or if you have another preferred podcast player, you can find “The New York Public Library Podcast” there. (Here’s the RSS feed.)

From a desktop or laptop:
Click the “play” button above to start the show. Make sure to keep that window open on your browser if you’re doing other things, or else the audio will stop. You can always find the latest episode at nypl.org/podcast.​​ ​​​​​​​​​​​

Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. My name is Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] And here we are, to discuss a title that is on the New York Public Library's "125 Books We Love" list, a list celebrating 125 years of the New York Public Library. It's not a best-books list; it's a books-we-love list.

[Rhonda] Mmhmm.

[Frank] Right?

[Frank] Culled from lots of meetings with librarians and from around the system who thought it out, and this list was derived. And Rhonda and I decided to read a romance called An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole. But first, how are you, darling?

[Rhonda] I am pretty good. You know, I'm hanging in there as New York, you know, slowly starts to open back up and open their doors to things. You know, we're slowly starting to go back into the library, so it's a nice little change of pace. Although we still have to stay safe, but it's been nice to kind of get out a little bit.

[Frank] Are you going down any rabbit holes of fascination or anything like with you being home alone and wandering around. Like, my obsession with various videos that we've discussed and all these distractions. Well, I guess they're not even distractions these days. They're just attractions. I don't know.

[Rhonda] I mentioned in the past my newfound obsession with stamps. But something really cool that just actually came out is, you know, the Schomburg Center has, here's my little chance to plug the Schomburg Center again. We have 2 programs called the Teen Curators and the Junior Scholars. And the Teen Curators curate this wonderful exhibit every year, and the junior scholars do this project with the collections. But then when, you know, COVID happened, they had to completely move everything online. And so, they just released yesterday kind of what they've been working on, and, I mean, it is fascinating. The team, the team curators did this really wonderful project on Afrofuturism, and the Junior Scholars worked with our Malcom X collection, and they did poetry and dance and art and all these wonderful things that I've been trying, you know, just going through all the things that they've put together. You know, and I just think it's fascinating how they were ale to do this by, you know, moving everything online so quickly, so. I'm going to plug this one. Schomburg, I think it's SchomburgEducation.org. But you know, one of the good things about it is, you know, it just shows what young people can do with access to these type of collections. So, I recommend it. It's very cool. It turned out very cool, so I've been kind of spending my time going through all of that and all of the things that they've been kind of working on.

[Frank] So, the public can see what these teens are up to at SchomburgEducation.org.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Rhonda. That was great. That was wonderful. You're a librarian. You're a New York Public Library employee, and it was wonderful. But I was trying to pull out something sexy from you.

[Rhonda] Oh!

[Frank] And I'm not getting it. You know, maybe that's inappropriate, and I shouldn't even have said that, but in honor of the book we read, I thought I would try to get Rhonda to be, like, "You know what? I didn't even get out of my bathrobe for 2 days last week." I don't know. But I guess we wouldn't go there, so--.

[Rhonda] Well, then, so, what about you. So, tell me, what have you been going through?

[Frank] It was so easy for you to do that! Turn it back on me! Well, I've been doing book discussions online, and it has been going very well.

[Rhonda] Oh, that's wonderful!

[Frank] Yeah. And I've been organizing, I've mentioned this before. Because sometimes there's no news from week to week, at least at the moment, but things are, like you said, starting to reopen. Some branches are in the New York Public Library System. Huh? What did you ask me? What's going on with me?

[Rhonda] Yep!

[Frank] Oh, I've been thinking of some programming to do online. I desperately miss in-person programming, but--.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But, you know, so, I am working, like I've said this before. I work with professors and teachers who are, I'd love to do some online classes again, like in art and literature. Like we've been doing and things like that. I used to do those often at the library, have our Jefferson Market University, which as continued and will continue to continue. But let's get to sexy things, so.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] Or I don't know, we'll see how far we can go with this conversation [laughing]. I guess I got distracted because I was thinking about some things I posted to Instagram that I've been obsessed about, but I don't think, let's not talk about that. We can go to the book. So, it's An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole.

[Rhonda] A Novel of the Civil War is the subtitle.

[Frank] Interesting that they call it a novel. I actually have seen the subtitle also as An Epic Love Story of the Civil War.

[Rhonda] Ah, okay.

[Frank] I think I've seen that. So, what'd you think?

[Rhonda] So, you know, I, okay, I have not really read romance novels before. So, I think I understand, like, the basic premise is, you know, at the end it's supposed to be happily ever after. And that there's all different types and genres of romance. I'm assuming this would be, like, a historical romance. And I know that some are steamier than others, and I don't know where this one falls within that. So, I, you know, I love history. So, I think I was reading the book kind of out of balance the way it's supposed to be read. I was kind of a little bit more, I was really interested in the backstory. And I don't think I was as interested in the romance, which I think was supposed to be the whole point. But that's kind of where I came from. But I did enjoy the story. I enjoyed the Civil War part and the spies and all of that. That was great.

[Frank] I mean, I think you're right. I think romance can be many things, obviously, especially these days. The genre has changed in so many ways. But I think that one of the core things that there's an emotionally satisfying ending, whatever that may be. But usually a union of sorts. An extraordinary union. And also, I mean, I was also thinking about the word "romance," which is a word I love and a word I use with regard to my own outlook in life. I sometimes, I love the idea of romance. I love romantic movies. And it's not just, like, love stories with a happy ending. It's romance as a sense of taking you slightly outside of the world as we know it, like as a heightened version of it. A sort of rooted in the real world but enough different that it feels sort of magical. Which, for me, is that, like, I always say over and over, like, Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite books of all time. And to me, it's a very romantic book to the max. But I like it for reasons that are different than a lot of romances. I love the sort of hate and awful feelings at the core of Wuthering Heights that wouldn't play as well in other romances. So, that's something else. And there's also another part of the plot of Extraordinary Union that bothered me, but we'll get there when we get there.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] I probably should say that we might reveal spoilers for this book, because this is one of our discussion books that you should have read, those of you who are listening, should have read already and are reading along with us and are discussing it with us in your own home. There, my little librarian schoolmarm moment. So, what were we talking about? So, romance. Oh, so, I was actually, as I was reading it, because I think Alyssa Cole, in this book, I don't think you're wrong. I think she clearly wants history, it's a historical romance, wants history to be very much front and center, and for people to read this and be enlightened very much so by the history. Did you, as I was thinking you might've, did you do any research, or did you know anything about the history of this book that takes place during the Civil War?

[Rhonda] Well, you know, I actually did do some research.

[Frank] I knew you would!

[Rhonda] I have to do a little bit of research!

[Frank] You're true blue!

[Rhonda] Mmmhmmm. Well, one of the things I wanted to look up was, so, like you said, everyone should've already read this, so they will know that the main characters are both spies. And one is for the, Ellen, right? Is a spy for what's called the Loyal League. And so, I did look up the Loyal League, which actually was, I think it wasn't really called that when they were active spies, but it was a thing. You know, a group of kind of freed slaves who were working for abolition. And, you know, Harriet Tubman was one of the most famous ones. Sometimes they were called the 4L's, Lincolns Legal Loyal League.

[Frank] Oh, wow.

[Rhonda] And, interestingly enough, when I was researching this, I found that there was a story of a black woman spy for the Loyal League, who was kind of, you know, pretending to be a slave for this engineer involved in kind of converting this ironclad ship. So, the plot was very similar to the book about the ship and spying and making sure that the Confederates didn't build this ironclad ship, so I'm assuming that's kind of where the inspiration came from. So, I did do a little bit of research on that. So, I thought that part was very interesting. And some other things I did research on, but, you know, we can get to that later.

[Frank] Well, we should say, I guess, for those who haven't read it out there, that Ellen or Elle is a freed slave, a Black woman, freed, this takes place in 1861, who is living in the north but wanted very much to help the cause, the Union cause, the north, the abolitionist cause, further than she already had been doing. And she's also blessed with a photographic memory that figures largely in the book, where everything she reads or hears, she remembers. So, she joins the Loyal League, and horrifyingly enough, goes back down south as a slave undercover. She's a detective undercover, to find out, to really find out information that would help the Union cause. So, she basically goes, she was really freed as a girl, as a young child with her parents. So, going back to be a slave, she's not fully, fully cognizant of what it's like to be a slave as an adult. She's well aware of what it entails, though, in terms of her just living in the world at that time. So, she goes, unbelievable, chooses to become "enslaved" and because the Union's cause is paramount to her. That's, like, very important to her. Free her people, free the slaves, get this country going, so that's her backstory, which, as you indicated, was based on a real person. And then, we get the guy [laughing]. Do you want to talk about him?

[Rhonda] Sure, so, we have Malcolm, who is, it seems like he came over to the United States when he was a young boy from Scotland. Which I kind of think is important that he is an immigrant. I think that kind of plays into some of his ideals, but he is also a detective but for the Pinkerton Agency, which I have heard of the Pinkerton Agency before this. But they were kind of detectives, I guess at this part of history, you know, hired by or working for the Lincoln Administration, I think. And he is undercover as a Confederate soldier, and he is kind of trying to infiltrate the family that Elle is working as a slave for, is a very famous kind of well-known senator for the Confederacy, and Malcom is trying to infiltrate, you know, his circle so he can learn all about kind of what the Confederacy is planning. And that's how these 2 lovebirds meet [laughing].

[Frank] They were on the same team, and they find out through, of course, a meeting, a romantic meeting.

[Rhonda] [Laughing] Yes.

[Frank] They're both individually assigned to meet each other, unbeknownst to each other, but they don't, well, they encounter each other in a meet-cute. You know, if you can say anything taking place during a time of slavery is meeting cute, you know, there you go. But they do know of each other, but they don't know they're spies, and they meet each other, unbelievably, at a rendezvous to share information. So, they're on the same team. I mean, I did think it was interesting that Malcom McCall. I have to say, when I was thinking about talking about this, every time I did, I started getting into different voices, like, "Malcom McCall." Or southern voices, like, "I do declare, Mr. McCall, that you are very beguiling to a girl like I."

[Rhonda] That's [inaudible], right?

[Frank] And I was like, why do we want to make fun of romance. And I just think, and I was thinking about it, like, it seems easy, but I think sex and love are so integral to the human condition that it's almost too much to talk about sometimes. And sort of light derision or sarcasm is sort of like an easy way to sort of dilute that feeling. Because I feel like, you know, issues of love and sex are so important to people. And it's just easy to make fun of. But it doesn't mean I'm not going to do it, but I just want to show that it's respectful poking fun of.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] But anyway, so Malcom was interesting, because I was interested, like you looked up the Loyal League, I was interested in his Scottish, he's Scottish. His family emigrated from Scotland, and they allude to in the book that the battle between England and Scotland occurred sometime before the 1860s. I think people out there might be more savvy to this history than me, but they do allude to his status as an immigrant, but also that he and many others were forced out of Scotland because of the English takeover and sort of, like, decimating the Scottish culture. And taking the Scottish wealth and land. And I don't, I mean, there was an allusion to enslavement of the Scottish people by the English, but that's not really gone into as much, and I was curious about that, about if Alyssa Cole was making a parallel between slavery. I think she definitely was making a parallel between, what's the word, like persecuted people.

[Rhonda] Right, that's what I thought.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Or she was trying to kind of, I guess maybe to put something in there that is going to bring them closer together and kind of have them have this shared experience. Because there is so much that, so many obstacles, kind of, that they have to get over, you know, in order to have this relationship in terms of, like, the power dynamics and race and all of that stuff. So, I thought that was kind of putting that in there to create this shared experience, maybe, like on his part, to create, you know, more empathy and why he is dedicated to the Union.

[Frank] Yeah. And it's interesting, I was just thinking you were saying how your interest kept gravitating towards the history and the sort of political part of the plot. And that was sort of true with me, even though, to me, like, all the plot points about the politics in specific were not, to me, important. Like, all that was important was, like, they're detectives. I know the north and south. I know the Civil War. I know Union versus Confederacy. I know they're on the right side and that they're in danger by being in the south. But, like, the whole business about the ironclad, like, the big, giant boat, actually it did interest me, I have to say, now that I think about it. Because I was thinking about it.

[Rhonda] --thinking about it, like, hmmm.

[Frank] They were trying to stop this [laughing] here's my very technical term, gigando boat, that the south was going to sort of get or steal. And if they did, the south would be able to break through the blockade.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] That the north employed that was cutting off the south's access to food and supplies.

[Rhonda] Right. You can see, you know I looked it up. You can kind of see these photographs, not photographs, but the ironclad ship does show up in a lot of different paintings from that time period, which is interesting. So, it was kind of like one of the first armored ships.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] You know, that people were using in warfare. So, they were, you know, trying to make sure that the Confederacy didn't get theirs completed before the Union finished theirs. So, it was a race.

[Frank] Okay, got it. Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, I guess I was interested in the politics. I mean, you know, so, they meet, and they're on the same page. And there's lots of, you know, complications. But this definitely was a, I think, I mean, you were saying there are different kinds of romances. Some are very not graphic in terms of sex. I thought this was pretty graphic.

[Rhonda] It was. I mean, it did have, you know, one of my, so, I know a little bit about romance, because one of my best friends is a member of the RWA, Romance Writers of America. So, I kind of hear some things, like, you know, the spectrum of kind of how graphic and steamy that these get. All the way from, like, you know, here we have some graphic moments, but it's not, you know, they're kind of dispersed throughout the book. So, I think there's some where, you know, it's just all graphic moments, and then the other end is like the Amish romance novels that you get.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But there were some, like, pretty graphic parts in here. But I guess, that's just, you know.

[Frank] Well, I mean, I remember when I was a kid, like Jackie Collins and Judith Krantz, like when the big, sexy novels came out. And it was almost like, you know, 29 pages in, like, all of us kids knew that the first sex scene would occur. Like, [laughing]. This takes a while until it gets there, but when it does, like, there's a couple of sex scenes that are pretty graphic. And I found it, that interests me, too. How the book, how Alyssa Cole in this book was going to tell us about the sexuality of the 2 characters, Malcolm and Elle. I mean, Elle, her name is Ellen, but she's called Elle a lot. And her last name is Burns. And Elle in French means she, so it's like she burns [laughing].

[Rhonda] I did not think of that.

[Frank] I mean, Elle Burns politically as well as in other ways. And certainly, like, the scenes, the sex scenes are Ellen, Elle takes a very dominant lead, we should say in some ways. She takes control. She takes control, even though, of course, well, maybe not of course. Of course, well, huh. This is interesting. I think it does illuminate her personality, because she is, first of all, she's very untrusting of Malcolm. One, because he's a White guy.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Two, because he's a White guy [laughing]. And 3, because she's just, she's, well, I mean, I think--.

[Rhonda] The whole scenario that she's in. And just, you know, it's the midst of slavery, and she's in a dangerous situation. And, you know, you're a spy, you're a detective. Who can you really trust, you know? I think that's a big part of where all that mistrust came from.

[Frank] I mean, that's where there's a little magic that's sort of sprinkled on the book that can add to the romance in that Malcolm pretty much right away is all up into Elle.

[Rhonda] Yeah, he's smitten.

[Frank] He is. And I think, you know, as she says, and it's politically laid out for you. She says, "Well, it's easy for you. Like, you're a White guy. You're used to getting whatever you want." And then, much is made of, in the daily life of slaves, which really was, just, ugh, about especially young female slaves, that they're just, like, sexual objects that could be taken whenever they want, whenever the White guy wants. And so, there was that element. And she was just, like, "I'm not going to trust you." So, she's pushing that off. And he's just being, like, you know, he's saying all the right things, you know. He says, "You think that I just want something taboo, but you're a dream for any man. You're intelligent. You're smart. And you're so lovely to look at." You know?

[Rhonda] Right, he lays it on pretty thick.

[Frank] Oh, yeah. Oh, but he's so sincere. But back to the sex scenes. I know you're desperately trying to twirl me away from them.

[Rhonda] I'm not. I'm listening.

[Frank] We obviously can't get into it graphically. You know, but there was the language of romance here. There was a lot of, like, you know, a lot of, you know, protuberance and things like that. But I have to say that my favorite scene, because it was graphic, but it wasn't, it had another element to it that I really enjoyed. And I just have to say it, if you remember. On page 149, if there are those of you out there who want to skip right to it. She basically, let's say, she sort of has a dominant position in this scene. And they're going at it. And she basically, how does it start?

[Rhonda] I'm trying to find this.

[Frank] I know it. [Inaudible] how it starts. He's basically admiring her intellect. And she's sort of like, meh, yeah, right. And he's like, "I want all of you, but you're not mine for the taking. I'll make do with whatever meager scraps you're willing to give me," he says to her. Things are heating up, and he says, I think it's him, yeah. Yeah, "I want to be skewered by that sharp tongue of yours always. I want to hear every mundane childhood story." They're actually in the midst of lovemaking as he's saying this. "And then some. I want to know everything about you, from your favorite color to your first spoken words." And then she says, "I love the color blue." Alright, so, then he asks her about what seasons, what season is her favorite. What favorite song she has, what her favorite books are. And all of this is happening while she's perched, you know, atop Mr. Malcom McCall, which is sort of a great scene when you think about it. Because they're hot and heavy but yet they're talking about their favorite books, which is a pretty nice romantic scene, I think.

[Rhonda] think so. You know, I felt that way, too, because it's like, you know, they have these lustful feelings for each other. But at the same time, they really want to know each other as people and, you know, he really wants, that's kind of how he shows that that's who he wants for the rest of his life. He cares about her inside, as well.

[Frank] [Laughing] I'm not even going to go there.

[Rhonda] Don't go there, but you know what I'm trying to say.

[Frank] [Laughing] I'm so giggly when it comes to sex, hee hee hee hee! I'm such an idiot. Speaking of, well, not speaking of idiots, but speaking of the book. I realize, there's also a suspense element to this book, because they are spies. Was there any scene that you particularly felt the suspense heat up?

[Rhonda] So, before we go there. What's funny about the scene that you said. Kind of on the opposite spectrum, the first scene where they're kind of, you know, you first get to see their lust for each other, I believe, is like when they first meet each other, and they're kind of hiding in the woods. And you know, the confederate soldiers are, like, right there. And they're, like, overhearing some really interesting information. But then all of a sudden, we start hearing all of this, like, these lustful feelings for each other and, like, you know, and how they feel about each other's touch. And that kind of got me frustrated, because I'm like, I want to hear more about, like, what these Confederate soldiers are talking about. [Laughing] I had the exact kind of opposite feeling in some moments about that. Let's see.

[Frank] I have to say that if, like, we're sort of in lots of ways we're following along the lines of this books. You're just sort of like all political minded. And I'm sort of like, "Well, I'm sort of in the mood." [Laughing] And you're, like, "I just want to know what the Confederacy is saying!"

[Rhonda] [Laughing] I thought that was a really interesting, but you know, I felt what you're saying at certain times. But let's see, suspense.

[Frank] I mean, there was, like, well, she does infiltrate the senator. She works with this Senator Caffery. Senator Caffery is a big Confederate dude. She's a slave, she works, she's a slave in his house, and she does infiltrate his office at certain times. And I sort of, Alyssa Cole covers her bases here. I like how she does that. She sort of makes a case for they're so cocky in their knowledge that slaves are not human and are not a problem and just sort of, or they're a problem in sort of dumb ways, that he doesn't even have to secure, which is a good plot point, secure certain papers on his desk. Because God knows, the slaves can't even read or can't even care to infiltrate what's going on on his desk. So, there's that cockiness of their superiority.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And she, you know, obviously uses that. Elle uses that feeling about slaves to her advantage to find out information. Which there are some scenes that are sort of, sort of suspenseful. And there is a scene, and it's interesting, like, in romances or in fiction, but genre fiction, like plot. Some people will argue plot points are too facile or too easy when they occur to move the plot along in the right way. And certainly, this book had a lot of twists that one could in general say, "Oh, how convenient." But I thought she did a really good job in setting them up that, yeah, you could say, "Okay, great plot twist. That helps this move forward." But believable. I mean, she takes the time to sort of point out other things. There's a character that's involved in that ironclad boat, a southern character, who is a southerner and has slaves and is all that you would imagine him to be. But he's very kind at one point to--.

[Rhonda] Dix, right?

[Frank] Yes! Dix.

[Rhonda] I thought he was going to come out as, like, a spy, too, at the end for some reason. Because he was so nice.

[Frank] See, look at you, thinking your --.

[Rhonda] That's what I was looking for [laughing].

[Frank] Well, he, I mean, the plot, the point there is that they discover her crying, for whatever reason. I mean, that's fine. And he says, the owner, Caffery, says, "She's just a simple darkie," you know, "the hell with her." And he's just like, you know, "Well, the poor dear just needs a shot of bourbon," or something. And he's sympathetic. And that's how she gets into the office to listen to their conversation. She just sort of recedes into the shadows when they forget she's even there. But Alyssa Cole makes a point of saying, you know, what a crazy, what crazy humanity, how crazy humanity can be that this southern slave owner could have moments of kindness to her. And it made it a human moment rather than just a plot point that got her into the office to listen to the secret dealings of these 2 southern Confederates.

[Rhonda] Right. And I actually kind of highlighted a quote that relates to what you are saying. It says, "It was amazing how much information, both business and personal, people bandied about freely in front of their slaves." And then, she kind of mentioned in another part, the wife of Senator Caffery was talking about the slaves kind of as if they were children or pets. You know, they're simple, and they're just always there. So, you know, how you have your pet in the room, you can say anything in front of them, you know. So, you know, I thought that was interesting, too, because you know, we're looking at this in this novel. But just thinking about, you know, how that kind of played out in real life. You know, how much was the Union defeated by, you know, Confederate people talking freely in front of their slaves. I thought that was a really interesting point, too, so.

[Frank] For sure. Let's see. There were, I have some notes, too, about different quotes. I'm just thinking of Malcolm, because they do set up Malcolm's backstory a little bit where his father kills himself.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because his mother is raped by the invading English, who are taking over Scotland. And his father can't get over that fact that, he just can't get over it. Even though, and they make, again, well written. They make the point that the mother has to get over it, what with her children. She had to survive. She had to move on. And she turns out, by the end of it, you get a glimpse of her again. A very strong, satisfied woman, who achieved something. Malcolm's mother. But it said, the way it's written in the book is that Malcolm, the father and then maybe Malcolm, have the curse of loving too much. He says, "The curse of Malcolm, of the McCall men, is that they love too much. They love too much." And I thought was an interesting, so to flip from the guy having that problem rather than the woman in this story. And that she's sort of much, much more embedded in real day-to-day life than, in a way, he is when it comes to love and giving love.

[Rhonda] And that plays, what you just spoke about, into one of the moments that I actually felt was really suspenseful. And that was when they were coming back from their kind of recon mission. She's dressed as a--, she's disguised as a young slave boy. And they get caught by slave traders. And they're trying to still Elle and sell her. And so, she's kind of saying, you know, "Well, we just got this new information, so anything for the Union." So, she's trying to signal for Malcolm to just leave her. And she'll just, you know, make this sacrifice, possibly be sold back into slavery so that he can go and tell the information that they need to defeat the Confederacy. But of course, you know, what you just said. He's one of those people who just loves so much, and he could not leave her in the hands of these slave traders, so he kind of risks the entire mission to make sure that Elle is saved, you know. So, I thought that was a suspenseful part but also kind of played into what you're saying about loving so much that he was willing to kind of risk the whole mission that they were working for.

[Frank] Yeah. That comes up a couple of times, where she has to remind herself, and she does root herself back into the reality that the cause, the Union cause, is number 1 to her. And she is less confused about her emotions. Well, she's not less confused about her emotions, but she's more clear with herself about what her priorities are. Even at the expense of him. And he is a little more troubled about that line. He almost would choose her over the cause, and I don't think she would.

[Rhonda] Well, she has a lot more at stake [laughing].

[Frank] Exactly! Thank you! See, that's exactly what she'd say, too. Like, if he said to her, we're playing the Malcolm and Elle parts here. Malcolm would be like, "But I love you, and I will never leave you." And she's like, "Excuse me, but I am fighting for my people!"

[Rhonda] Right! Exactly what she would say.

[Frank] Exactly, you're right. And see, I forgot. I was lost in love, and I forgot the real cause, like a moron White man [laughing].

[Rhonda] Now, but you know, Malcolm kind of has this kind of conversation with himself, when he's like, "Do I really," you know, see, before, he's kind of thinking about before he met Elle, "Do I see Black people as equals? Or was I kind of just seeing myself as this savior figure and not really kind of thinking about them as individuals, and I'm just kind of here to save the day." Where she's kind of bringing into it, like, "This is my everyday life. These are my people. This is what I'm fighting for." So, I thought that was good that Alyssa Cole kind of brought that dilemma into the picture.

[Frank] Absolutely. And you did bring up a plot point, which happens at least twice, where she's dressed as a boy. Which I thought something might be made of that. And I realized, not really. But then, I did realize that one of the, probably the most, like, could be suspenseful or dangerous, here I go again, sex themes! That occurred was when she was dressed as a boy. Oh, God, I can't even tell the details [laughing].

[Rhonda] I think I know, okay. I had to think about it.

[Frank] Basically, it was--.

[Rhonda] I'm really interested in where you're going with this one.

[Frank] [Laughing] I'm making Rhonda crazier. She basically never gets undressed, let's put it that way. She's just sort of like taking charge of situations. Now, I don't know where you are in your thoughts, but it does accelerate, this plot obviously, as it keeps going forward. And I'll just say this. I was extremely, well, there's a, ugh, there's 2 things I want to say. I was extremely excited by the end, because it basically, and again, this is a huge spoiler. So, I'll take a moment if anyone wants to go away. Or you should have read it. That Malcolm gets shot. They're almost there. They're almost on their way. He's even shot by someone on their side, because he's wearing the Confederate uniform, which is an interesting thing. And in terms of if it was a movie, you would constantly be reminded, as Elle is, of the fact that she's always making out with a guy in a Confederate uniform.

[Rhonda] Right!

[Frank] Which itself has got to be sort of like a visual, like a slave, a woman dressed as a slave, with a guy who's dressed as a Confederate soldier.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So, anyway, he gets shot. And I was, like, "Ah!" Because it was sort of lovely, well-written, where he falls into the water. And you know, gets submerged, and is lost to darkness. And it's, like, a couple of pages to the end, so I was, like, "Oh, my God."

[Rhonda] Like, it was so close to the ending.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] It was so close to the end. You're like, what just happened?

[Frank] But that made me realize about how I like my love, in that I was, like, really excited and glad. I was, like, and I realized, "Oh, I really like my lovers dead." [Laughing] I'm, like, I really, I like that tragic, like, Wuthering Heights. I like that tragic of she was going to boldly go into the north and forge ahead alone knowing her love, the greatest love she'll ever know, was lost. And Malcolm is, like, you know, wandering the halls of heaven, waiting to be reunited with his love again, when she dies as a very, very old, successful free woman. And I was, like, "You just like your love stories to have a traffic end so they stay, so they almost stay pristine." So, that love story can stay perfect, because God knows, after this book is over. And Malcolm, by the way, does not die. He is saved and found and comes back. But Lord knows, life is difficult enough to start forging ahead as a married couple. But especially these 2 in the early 1860s. So, I was, like, alright, there's going to be a lot of fights [laughing].

[Rhonda] And I don't even think the relationship was legal. I mean, they have this kind of marriage ceremony on the ship, but I think that was, you know. I think in most places in the United States at that time, interracial marriages were not legal. You know? So.

[Frank] Absolutely. And [inaudible] marriage thing where one of the guys just spiritually unites them, and he basically just says, "You're married." But you know what I loved? There was a great quote from the book that I thought was so interesting to contemplate just in general, too, as well as specific to the book. Where Alyssa Cole says, let's see. Like about Elle and Malcolm's relationship, which is interracial, obviously. And the writer says, well, through Elle's thoughts. Because we get, in the book, both Elle and Malcolm's thoughts. You're sort of in both their heads. It's a third-person narrator, but you're only in their 2 heads, so we do get their point of view. So, you know Malcom's sincere, and you know what Elle's thinking, so that's good. But here it says about Elle, someone knew about their, oh, someone finally, another spy/slave finds out about Elle's relationship. And she's thinking someone knew about their relationship, and once people knew something existed, they could destroy it. Like, I thought that was a really interesting statement, which resonated for me on lots of levels. Like, once people know something actually exists, then they can actually destroy it. And when we talk about, like, rights for peoples. Like, gay rights, for example, or freeing slaves or civil rights. Once, this is tough, before that happens, you can live, I've discovered through reading and research, that you can live. It's covert, and it's never front and center, and you can never fully be yourself in society, which is really the goal. But you can live a life without the official sanction of the culture.

[Rhonda] Right, yep. That's true.

[Frank] And I know there's a lot of literature on this subject, where, especially this is really more of a gay rights situation than a civil rights. Where people talked about gay and lesbians, talked about the life before rights were conferred as being somewhat very free. Because within the parameters of the culture, like, don't show me who you are, just live your underground life. And there was some sense of freedom and pleasure in that. Which is not to say that people shouldn't have full rights, of course. But part of that was once something exists, once something is named, then people can seek to destroy it. Which was very powerful in that, so you do proclaim who you are. Then it seems like there is a level of hate that accelerates by the acknowledgement of the existence of, for example, interracial love or gay rights, I mean, or anything like that. So, it suddenly becomes, weirdly and conversely, your rights have achieved, you've achieved your rights. But yet, by being so visible and so proclaimed, becomes a target. I don't know what I just, well, I know.

[Rhonda] I definitely understand what you're saying, and I also think this kind of relates to the point that you were saying before about kind of having the tragic ending, right? It's because thinking about what is the future going to be like for Elle and Malcolm. Especially if they are kind of openly declaring their love and their relationship for each other. Which it sounds like is what Malcolm tries to do, right? Like, he takes her name.

[Frank] That was an interesting--.

[Rhonda] Right. That was interesting, too, but you know, again, like, the life that they're going to have to live is going to be, they're going to be very careful of where they decide to go. And you know, there's slavery is still in place, so at any point she could get captured and sold back into slavery. You know, there's all these things that are challenges for that type of relationship, especially at that time. I mean, again, you know, looking at US history, I think, was it Loving v. Loving case? Was in the '60s, is when. So, you know, this is--.

[Frank] A hundred years before.

[Rhonda] Right! A hundred years before that, so I understand, you know, that point of view.

[Frank] Yeah. It was just an interesting way she put it about, like, about once something is named or exists, then people can actually more almost officially destroy it, because it is out in the open. And I guess that's part of the evolution of attaining equality is that you have to go through that period. And I guess that's what you're saying. When you look forward in time to what Malcolm and Elle are going to encounter, it just feels like, ugh. Just have him die [laughing].

[Rhonda] [Inaudible]

[Frank] You know, she could, I would've preferred if she just like then became like, "I will never have love again. That was the only love I ever needed. I'm going to spend the rest of my life fighting for the cause." And that would've been a very satisfying ending, and much more emotionally calming for me, rather than knowing all the trouble they're going to probably have in life. But, hey. This is actually a first, which I discovered later, a first volume of a trilogy.

[Rhonda] Yeah!

[Frank] It does--.

[Rhonda] A [inaudible] trilogy.

[Frank] The what?

[Rhonda] The Loyal League Trilogy, I think is what she calls it. Yeah.

[Frank] So, once you read this one, you can read the further adventures of Malcolm McCall and Elle Burns.

[Rhonda] I don't know if they're in the other ones, though. I kind of did a little looking forward. And I think, you know, they talk about his brother at the end, and I think he's the, I think he also find his Black love interest, as well.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But I think it's different people.

[Frank] I think it is.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah, I think you're right. Because they do introduce, like I said, Malcolm's family at the end. Interestingly, that's odd. That's an interesting part. Like, we just talked about the roles they play. Elle meets Malcolm's mother and sister. The brother is off doing something. He's getting ready for his appearance in the second book. But you meet that family and how they are sort of going to accept Elle into it. But they don't, and they indicate that they're going to go visit Elle's family afterward, but you don't see that scene. And it is alluded that her family is a lot more angry about her marriage than or marriage than Malcolm's family is. Did you pick that up?

[Rhonda] Oh, totally. And again, that makes sense. I mean, it's 1861, you know, and she's marrying the enslavers. Not him specifically, but that's probably what, you know, her parents were slaves. So, I could totally see how they could, you know, have an issue with this.

[Frank] Oh, my God. You're not kidding. I mean, yeah. That's I guess why it's a romance. It definitely touches on the subjects, but it doesn't by definition get too really gritty with the actual politics of the time. I mean, you know what I mean. Like, oh, my God, if this was--.

[Rhonda] I do. And you know, one of the characters, again, that relates to, you know, not getting too into the gritty details, but kind of touching on them. I thought it was the character of Suzie. You know, they kind of make her this manipulative. Suzie is the daughter of Senator McCaffery. And she is lusting after Malcolm, and she really wants Malcolm to be her suitor. And of course, he only has eyes for Elle, but he has to pretend like he loves Suzie. And, you know, she's very manipulative. She's very, you know, mean to the slaves. And I don't know, I thought that was really interesting. Especially because there is this book. I don't know if you heard about it. It came out last year, called They Were Her Property: White Women as Slave Owners in the American South. And it won the Los Angeles Times Book Prize in History. But it talks all about, you know, how there's this kind of romanticized view of, like, this southern belle. And how kind of White women were, you know, not, kind of took a backseat to slavery. It was the men who were the ones who were buying and selling and owning the slaves. But it shows how White women took a much more active role than we kind of see in history. And I think that the way she kind of, you know, tries to manipulate Malcolm, especially at the end, accusing him of, you know, she accuses him of rape. I think there's kind of a lot of issues that, if somebody really wanted to dig deep into that character of Suzie, there could be a lot there to look at.

[Frank] [Laughing] I actually thought of her earlier, because she was like the classic southern belle, like with an edge. And now, suddenly, I'm exhausted thinking about her, because she's such a rotten character.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I mean, just like, ugh. But it sort of flips that, like, Scarlett O'Hara trope, it digs a little deeper into it, you know, and not so pretty. Not such a pretty picture there.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But I wonder if she comes back. Because actually Malcolm at some point says she's so conniving and manipulative, Suzie, that she'd make a good spy. I doubt she returns and flips sides, but that would be fun [laughing].

[Rhonda] That would be interesting. I don't think it would be as a spy, because he said she's too, like, narcissistic.

[Frank] Right, she never thought of anyone but herself. Right.

[Rhonda] Yeah. But I guess you would have to read the other Loyal League books to find out.

[Frank] I guess.

[Rhonda] I went and looked at Alyssa Cole's website, and she writes, you know, she's really prolific, and she writes a really, really broad range of romance novels. You know, she has LGBTQA romance novels. She had romance novels where characters have, you know, physical disabilities. She writes about all different areas of, like, history. There's a series called, about the Black suffragette, a historical romance anthology. She's really, you know, she writes very, very broadly. I thought that was interesting.

[Frank] Well, I actually have a little glamor gossip for you, because one of the other reasons I really wanted to read this book was because Alyssa Cole was part of a romance book club here at my library at Jefferson Market, like, years ago. And before she had written any books. And I was hosting it, and she was running this romance book club where the participants discussed romances and their own writing. And part of that group was another hot romance writer right now, Alexis Daria, who wrote a book called You Had Me at Hola. So, Alyssa Cole and Alexis Daria started their careers at Jefferson Market. Creativity [inaudible]. Isn't that cool?

[Rhonda] That's amazing!

[Frank] I met her! I mean, she's, Alyssa was a lovely woman. And so talented and very sweet and mild. And a lot going on. A lot going on obviously in there. But I remember her very well.

[Rhonda] That's amazing! See, the library, see what the library can do?

[Frank] See, that's where I wanted to leave it. I thought, the library. A crucible of creativity. There you go.

[Rhonda] Exactly. I can definitely see myself reading more Alyssa Cole. I don't know about, you know, jumping right into the whole romance genre, but I could see myself reading some more Alyssa Cole books.

[Frank] Cool! I'm glad you did a little digging into the history, because I was curious about it myself, as well. So, there you go! An Extraordinary Union, which has double meaning, I think, by Alyssa Cole. So, what's up for us? Next time, it's a book free for all. We're going to read whatever we please.

[Rhonda] Yep, exactly! And then, we'll announce our book club pick for the next episode.

[Frank] Alright, well, everybody take care, and it was a pleasure. And Rhonda, you take care. And hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, [singing] someday, we'll be together! Yeah! I got a song in there!

[Rhonda] I would join you, but I can't sing. So, I'll just listen to you.

[Frank] [Laughing] Like I can? Yeah, right! Alright, kids. Take care and see you soon!

[Rhonda] Okay, goodbye!

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.