Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Hey all! Welcome back for another episode of The Librarian is In. Rhonda and Frank are still social distancing while New York City slowly starts to open up. This week Frank and Rhonda read books of their own choosing. 

Frank starts us off with a quick indulgence into those sometimes binge-worthy, sometimes stress-inducing Karen videos. He connects them to his pick this week, Such a Fun Age  by Kiley Reid, by setting us up with the background that this book also starts with a video taken by a bystander at a supermarket...

 

Rhonda chose to read Passing by Nella Larsen, written in 1929. Listeners will remember Rhonda's fascination with philately and the introduction of US postage stamps inspired by the Harlem Renaissance. One person on those stamps was Nella Larsen—a nurse, librarian, and novelist. We've included links to books about Nella Larsen below.

Don't forget to set some mood lighting, gather some rose petals, and read along with us on our next book from the NYPL 125 Books We Love List—a romance (gasp!): An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole. We'll be discussing it on the next episode!

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More things we talked about today:

• Reese Witherspoon's book club
• Little Fires Everywhere by Celeste Ng
• The Harlem Renaissance
• Our Kind of People: Inside America's Black Upper Class by Lawrence Graham
• Books about Nella Larsen

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Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, people. Welcome to The Librarian is In. The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture sometimes, and what to read next all the time. I'm Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] And here we are in another episode of The Librarian is In. How are you Rhonda?

[Rhonda] I'm doing pretty good. You know, things are, like I mentioned last time, beginning to open back up in New York City. So, you know, I wonder how much longer we'll actually have to do this apart from each other. Maybe a little while longer, but, you know, things are beginning to look up.

[Frank] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the streets around where the library is and I live are getting busier. Outdoor restaurants are, people are eating in them. I was thinking about, of course, the, how things might -- after getting used to in quotes so much different kinds, so many different of behavior, like, having meetings online and, like, we're doing the podcast remotely from each other, how that might change work when we get back. And I was thinking for sure I don't want to be like, well, we can just record remotely from now on. I feel like we have to be together. So that's all I'm saying.

[Rhonda] Yeah, I think that's the goal. So when --

[Frank] Good.

[Rhonda] -- as soon as it's safe I'm sure we'll be seeing each other's faces again, Frank.

[Frank] Well, I'm glad you agree, because [inaudible] I feel like --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- talk about books I just, I want to see your reaction. I want to gauge all that stuff. And sometimes I think about when I do the podcast I'm, like, sitting by myself just pontificating an orating about what I just read so --

[Rhonda] I now. I fell like we've done pretty good, though, getting used to this new format. But, you know, it's not the same as when we're in the same room face-to-face. I hear what you're saying.

[Frank] For sure.

[Rhonda] For sure.

[Frank] So let me think. So I can launch in. I think -- if you don't mind.

[Rhonda] No, please do.

[Frank] Well, it's funny because, like I just mentioned, habits changing and, you know, getting used to different ways of doing things, like, being alone so often, like, I've [inaudible] on my phone more don don don.

[Rhonda] Uh oh.

[Frank] I always hate, you know, I was tell you, like, technology blah, blah, blah. But, you know, watching, like, YouTube videos and stuff like that, and I think I might have mentioned already, I've probably told the staff at Jefferson Market on meeting online that I was starting to watch excessively these what are called public freak out videos. I think I mentioned that.

[Rhonda] No, I don't think you mentioned the public freak out videos.

[Frank] No? It's basically, like, you know, someone having their own camera where they're, like, a patron of an establishment goes crazy, you know, gets angry, wants to speak to the manager. All sorts of situations where just, like, you know, upset [phonetic], high stressed people having a what -- the label of the video, which are always, like, click bait in some ways, you know, public freaking out. And I don't know why but I think, I was, like, do I miss the public? Which are lovely people. So I was, like, I don't know what that's about. See the [crosstalk].

[Rhonda] Yeah, that's interesting 'cause those videos honestly stress me out. You know what I'm saying? Those situations are just, kind of, so anxiety producing. But I could see how they could be addictive also.

[Frank] Yeah, I don't know, I just want to see, calibrate, I think I want to be, I want to see if I agree if someone's legitimate or truly being inappropriate. But I also realize you never hear the full story. The videos cut in, like, the middle of a situation and things like that. So I don't know. But what that segued to was -- and it's so rude to people named Karen, but those Karen videos.

[Rhonda] Yes, the Karen videos. Karen gone wild, I've seen those. Yes.

[Frank] Karen's got wild? Which is [crosstalk].

[Rhonda] I've seen that was, it's, like, that's what they, it's, like, a compilation of those videos.

[Frank] Right. And that, I got onto those. And now, obviously, Karen is a thing. Basically, you know, like, a complaining, usually middle-aged white woman [crosstalk] considered a Karen. I don't even care to go into the history of it. But, of course, I've looked it up. But it's funny, my, one of my best friends in college was named Karen, but we all called her Betty. And that's a different story. She was the sweetest, and still is the sweetest person so -- I don't think she's very happy about that. So I really shouldn't perpetuate the Karen thing. But, it, sort of, does lead into the book I read.

[Rhonda] Okay, let's hear.

[Frank] Oddly enough. That long preamble. I was looking around for a book to read. And I wanted to read something lighter and fun and, you know, maybe soap opera-ish and, you know, with, you know, an issue maybe in there, but something that was gonna be, like, with a murder or, not so much a mystery, maybe a thriller. I don't know. But, so I was looking around. And I came upon a book. And I saw that it was, had the stamp on the cover that said Reese's Book Club.

[Rhonda] Oh, like, Reese Witherspoon.

[Frank] Like Reese Witherspoon. So I was, like, well, Reese Witherspoon picked this book for her book club then it's gotta be fun. Because I was thinking, like, Big Little Lies and I was, like --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- be a soap opera. It will have a thriller. Maybe someone will get murdered or -- and it'll, but it will be, it will have emotional weight, and it just came with the Reese Witherspoon, obvious stamp of approval. I was, like, well, let's try it out. Looks like fun. So speaking of fun, the title is Such a Fun Age. Have you heard [phonetic] --

[Rhonda] Such a Fun Page.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] Such a Fun Page P-A-G-E.

[Frank] [Crosstalk] age, age -

[Rhonda] Age, okay. Oh, interesting.

[Frank] Like, highly read. Have you heard of it?

[Rhonda] I have not heard of it.

[Frank] Oh, okay.

[Rhonda] I seem, like, she has picked some, Reese has picked some pretty good, pretty good stuff so this should be interesting.

[Frank].Oh -- Do you know what else she picked?

[Rhonda].I, didn't she pick, um, Little Fires Everywhere also?

[Frank] Oh, yeah, and then she made it into a TV.

[Rhonda] And then she made it, yeah.

[Frank] Well, that's also what I was thinking. Well, you know, and I'm, this book actually is currently in development for a movie apparently. But I just thought it would be something that would have some meat to it, but that would be fun. Like, you know, I'm so snobby about genre books. I should just get over myself. But then when I so called read a genre book it's so much fun. And I say that too. So anyway, I am a good person, I think, and I went into this book just, sort of, excited to read something that might be as we call fun. Got more than I bargained for possibly, because this is the story. Is called Such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid. It was a Reese Witherspoon pick in January I think. And apparently it's gotten a lot of play. I don't know how to present this story to you. I was gonna be, sort of, like, devious and leave out details, and have you guess something, but I, seems rude to do that.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] So I'm just gonna be straightforward. So it basically -- I said the Karen video, the, those Karen videos. It starts off, and there's two characters you're introduced to. One is named Emira Tucker. She's a 25-year-old postgrad, like, out of college. And she is this, sort of, babysitter for a woman named Alex Chamberlain. And Alex Chamberlain's a white woman who's very, you know, well-off. She's, like, an Instagram influencer. Has a letter writing business, you know, sort of, like, a lifestyle guru, empowerment guru. Sort of a, taps into that, sort of, Instagram phenomenon of empowerment feeds. And she's [crosstalk] a brand around that.

[Rhonda] And you said she has a letter writing business?

[Frank] Yeah, she got on an app because of helping women to write better in terms of their college applications --

[Rhonda] Oh, okay.

[Frank] -- and things like that. It's called let her L-E-T-H-E-R like, and it's a hashtag, so hashtag let her speak. So she's become, like, this, sort of, female empowerment figure online. And she's tall and blonde and in her early 30s. And, you know, she pronounces her name Alix instead of Alex, but her real name is Alex. So I think you might be getting an idea this lady. But, so that's Alex. And then Emira Tucker is her 25-year-old babysitter. And Emira is a black woman, couple years out of college, sort of, wondering what she's going to be doing in life. But really enjoys her babysitting Alex's and her husband's daughter Briar, who's, like, almost three years old. She really does like being a caregiver. And she loves the kid. And the kid is, like, a character in this book. She's three years old but, you know, she does, she has dialogue.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] So Emira as the book opens is basically with her three friends celebrating. It's, like, a weekend. She's like, you know, wearing a miniskirt. Wearing club attire. Couple of drinks under her belt. And she gets a call from her boss Alix, the mom, asking if Emira can come over. It's, like, almost 11 o'clock at night. And she asks her to come over to watch her three-year-old. There's also a baby. Because there was some emergency at the house that she didn't want, that would include police action. So she didn't want the kid to be around that kind of excitement and hubbub. So Emira, you know, to her credit says, you know, I'm not really dressed like you'd expect. It's, like, club wear. And she has, and she admits she's had two drinks. But the mom Alex is, like, it's fine, we just need you. So Emira is, like, all right. She actually leaves the party with her best friend Zara. And they go to the house and pick up the three-year-old, like, at 11 o'clock at night. And they go to a local, like, you know, upscale closing at midnight grocery store. Like, very upscale, like, 15,000 kinds of nuts and, you know, that kind of thing.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And the little girl likes to look at all the different kinds of food. So she's, like, gonna kill, like, 25 minutes in the store with her friend Zara, Emira, Zara, and the little girl Briar. So they go to the store [phonetic] and they, you know, they're wandering around the practically empty store. Zara's sort of, like, a wild gal. And she puts on music. Not to loud, but, like, you know, a little [inaudible] music on her phone. And she, they start dancing with the little girl just to sort of, like, entertainer her while they're browsing around the store. And a lady walks by, a white lady and she smiles, like, you know, [inaudible] at the, sort of, little scenario she sees. And then ten minutes later a security guard comes up to Emira and says like, you know, who are you and who is this kid you're with. Like, she's a black woman with a three-year-old white girl. So, you know, Emira is a little bit, like, I'm her babysitter. And, you know, the guard -- And the woman who reported her is right behind the guard just, sort of, with arms folded looking at the situation. And the guard's just, like, I don't think that's true. So basically you see what's happening here. It's a situation two black women dancing around. And then the guard's, like, well, you're not dressed like a babysitter. And Miss, have you been drinking. So you can see how this is set up to be a real tense situation. For Emira specially. And completely for -- Anyway, she says, I'm the babysitter, I'm gonna call the dad. He's a he's a white guy, so that should calm things down, she says. And the dad comes over and fixes that and leaves. During this situation with the security guard another guy is filming it, again the Karen thing about people reporting behavior they don't like, especially seems to be a lot around race. But he's filming it. And, you know, as they're leaving after it's resolving in quotes he says, I have this video and you should post it and get a lot of money from the store, get the guard fired, all that kind of thing. So she's, like, now I don't want it. She, Emira doesn't even have social media presence. She's, like, I don't want to have a presence on the Internet. I don't really want to be that person. She, he basically, though he emails her. He asks for her email. And this, an exchange. And he says, I'll email you the video so you have it. But he's, like, I'll delete it. He's being very kind about that. And she's grateful for that. And, you know, there's a little bit of flirtation. But she [phonetic] gets the email. She gets the email and the video. And then she goes back with the little girl and the dad to the house. So that's your setup. And then what happens from there is when they get back Alex, the mom, is outraged and shocked by it. And it, sort of, like, plays out the book about how Alex deals with her babysitter Emira. And the situation she encountered in the grocery store, which outraged her. And for Emira's sake. So -- And then the guy that filmed the situation [phonetic] in the grocery store, the incident, is, comes into the narrative later and starts dating Emira. He's a white guy. And about five, about eight years older. So she's 25 and he's about 33, 32. He also has a connection from the past with Alex.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] Thank you. Well, I gotta tell you that Kiley Reid is the author. And it's her first book. And I thought the writing was great. I got what I wanted in terms of story, because I haven't done this in so long, but at the end of several chapters I literally out loud would go, like, oh my God or, woo hoo, like, I was just [phonetic] sort of, like, excited, because she really -- I mean, there are some humdinger plots in this book.

[Rhonda] Oh.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] I love that.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] I said I love that.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk] when you get surprised. I think that's the best thing.

[Frank] Oh, for sure. I mean, when, you, but if you think about the plot just like I said, you know, the guy who just happens to be filming the incident with Emira and the security guard also and then starts dating Emira later has also has a connection with Alex. And a very intense connection you can say just like a soap opera, like, some of the coincidences and plot twists are, like, oh my God they're too much. I mean, that's partly why we go oh my god.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And in a gleeful way because you're, like, oh, I can't believe the author did that. Or good for them, good for the author for actually getting away with it. And I think her writing is good enough that you accept those plot points. And she does write a story. She's writing a story about people navigating their lives that's can be exciting and fun. But obviously there are other issues at play here. But it's not didactic. It's not particularly, I mean, any story I think that picks up certain kinds of issues like race relations and things like that are, can be a teaching moment for the authors the audience. But I think unless you disagree, but I think she really wanted to have, like, an exciting plot that would be a, sort of, like, could be, like, a miniseries, you know? Like, that could be, sort of, engrossing in that way. And then make other points in other ways. Because Alex's character it's, sort of, example -- maybe -- Well, I was gonna, I'm not gonna say the first of its kind because I don't read everything, so I don't know. But, like, a real current right now example of so many things, like, white guilt. I mean white savior thing. And also class. And money. Because Alex's character grew up poor-ish. And her parents came into a great deal of money when she's in high school. So she wasn't raised on money, but she then is hit with a lot of money. And that is made clear in the book for both characters, Emira, who's not rich by any means. She's struggling. And she's struggling to find out what she's gonna do with her life. That how money can change us or inform how we treat each other.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because she almost feels Alex guilty about even having money. And that, I think I was gonna, I was saying one of the first books that's talks of the phenomenon of that it's not cool not only is it not cool to disparage people of other races, but it's super, super cool to be super supportive and look nonracist.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I'm not a racist. I'm a white lady who's completely not racist. And here's the proof. And I feel, like, I feel like the book very much lives in one issue. And one core thing is that one should investigate in themselves why you're doing what you're doing. Are you doing it for yourself, or are you doing it for someone else. And, or a little bit of both and why. And, like, really to understand what you're doing, because if you're -- and that's tough. I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't, that's, like, an unresolvable-ish issue in that sometimes you [inaudible] delusional, and you realize much later I was completely delusional. How could I behave the way I behaved.

[Rhonda] Right. I mean, it sounds like, like I said, those situations, those videos can be really stress inducing. But to watch. But it sounds, like, kind of, what happened with this book is that they take that moment, but don't, kind of, have that reaction. And maybe the story, does it kind of evolve away from that plot point? Or does it kind of stick with that original incident? 'Cause you said there's all these, kind of, twist and turns and --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- you also, kind of, sounds like it may have been some, kind of, like, you know, fun elements there. So it seems like it does, it kind of takes that -- -- step out of it.

[Frank] It definitely is a, it's the kickoff of the book that kicks off the characters and their relationship to each other. It does come back, the video, by the end of the book in a very strong way. The twists and turns and the humor of the book is that it is, I mean, it is very satirical. I've read some reviews after that some people found it very funny. I didn't, I mean, this is not a dis to the author. I didn't find it laugh out loud funny. I found it pleasingly, like, oh, I see what you're doing there and humorous. But I was too wrapped up in the characters and what was gonna happen to them. Because that, I think that's a good thing. Like, because as you meet Emira and Alex, like, they really are both struggling in their own way. Very different economic background, economic situation and -- but they both seem to be presented, like, you know in quotes good people. That's a really good issue, or thing to think about in that what makes a good person. Because, like, I was excited as the story went on to anticipate the possible encounter of where Emira or Alex would have an incident that would show them to be not what they were being built up to be. Meaning good, striving people.

[Rhonda] That's what I was, kind of, waiting for.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] To see if you were gonna mention something like that.

[Frank] And you know what? I guess in the interest of not being a blabbermouth, and letting people find out for themselves I won't tell you what actually happens or, with the characters and how it evolves. I've probably said enough, I guess. The third --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- character -- you're, like, I think you said enough. Well, no, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] I had a question, though.

[Frank] Oh, okay.

[Rhonda] I'm curious about, so Emira and Alex, like, what is their, kind of, relationship or dynamics -- I mean, 'cause it doesn't seem like they're that far apart in age and --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk] like, do they, kind of, just have this, you know, employer-employee relationship? Or does it, kind of, evolve and grow into something else?

[Frank] Well, yeah that's good, that's very major part of the book. And after the incident, which is basically in the first ten pages, in the grocery store, Alex does become somewhat obsessed with getting closer to Emira. She, Emira's a great babysitter. And the little girl Briar loves her. And they, there's several scenes where they're, you know, they interact wonderfully. So there's that, that she's doing a good job with caretaking her children, Alex's children. But more than that she gets this obsessive idea to be her friend. Emira's friend. And, like, wants to be a friend. Like, it starts getting a little strange where she'll, if she thought, Emira is charging her phone by the front door and whenever Alex goes in she looks at it, you know, because they are, without the code you can still see text messages. So she gets a glimpse into her life that way. She sort of, like, starts wanting to find out details about Emira to give her, Alex, information to then employ to get closer to her. Which [crosstalk] --

[Rhonda] Intersting.

[Frank] -- creepy.

[Rhonda] That's a little creep.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] That she's looking at her phoning and --

[Frank] Mm hmm.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Huh.

[Frank] But, you know, you're not sure where it's gonna go, because there's still, sort of, you know, they seem like decent people. And you're just sort of, like, hoping for the best. Or hoping for the worst in terms of enjoyment of the book, that someone's gonna do something really radical that changes the course of book, which does happen. The third figure, Kelly, the guy whose Alex's age who has that history with her, and who films the incident with Emira, and then they start dating, is also introduced as a character that has something to say.

[Rhonda] Interesting.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] I wonder if we'll be seeing this on the big screen soon.

[Frank] You will. You will, darling. And also, I think I've definitely heard that the audio of this book is really good.

[Rhonda] Oh, okay, now I'm really tempted. You know I love [crosstalk] --

[Frank] I know, and I'm [crosstalk] I think I'm gonna do an audiobook soon. Because I have to jump into this. And I did hear there was a review on the audio this book that there's so many cool characters. There's another, one more element that I think she's playing with in terms of, like, a Sex in the City type thing in that Emira has three friends that figure in the book. And Alex has three friends that figure in the book. So they each are this quartet of their own almost, like, Sex in the City style about four women who are friends. And Alex's crew is very diverse. Emira is not as. But that's also a, sort of, like, in little fun part in that when the four friends in each camp are hanging out with themselves it's sort of fun and amusing about how they talk to each other and what they say. And, like, Alex and her rich friends what they talk about. And Emira and her gals, her home girls, and how to hang out and what they talk about with each other is, sort of, another fun element. Anyway --

[Rhonda] So [crosstalk] them moving in their own world, and then moving in each other's world a little bit.

[Frank] There you -- Rhonda, you should do the audiobook. You like Emira and Alex living in their own worlds soon to merge in one conflagration of whatever.

[Rhonda] I'll think about it.

[Frank] You actually could have a career [phonetic]. I've read some comments about your soothing, pleasing voice. So --

[Rhonda] Oh, well, that's nice. You know, maybe I'll consider that. Maybe that will be my third career.

[Frank] I [crosstalk].

[Rhonda] As an audiobook author.

[Frank] You, yeah, you've had a lot of careers. Lawyer [phonetic]. You're amazing. So --

[Rhonda] Well, thank you.

[Frank] You're welcome. So I'll just say the title Such a Fun Age by Kiley Reid.

[Rhonda] Awesome. It sounds pretty good.

[Frank] All right.

[Rhonda] So should I move in to what I chose for this episode?

[Frank] No, we're gonna stop right here because I think --

[Rhonda] Yeah, let's stop, take a break. No.

[Frank] No, please tell me what you've been up to. What have you been reading or listening to?

[Rhonda] So I did not listen, I read.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk]. Yes. And I chose a book from 1929.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] So, okay, I'll tell you the reasons why I chose this book. So first off, as I have mentioned in quite a few of the past episodes, you know, I have this new hobby of philately, the stamp collecting. Which I've been, kind of, obsessed with. And I mentioned, you know, when I first mentioned it it was because the Harlem Renaissance stamps came out. And one of the stamps had Nella Larsen. And, you know, I got the -- The USPS puts out a catalog of, kind of, all the things that they have. And when it came in the mail it was Nella Larson on the cover. And then I was thinking well, you know, also she was, you know, a librarian at NYPS. So I was, like, well, maybe I should read her book.

[Frank] She was?

[Rhonda] So I chose -- Yup. She was for a very short time at 135th Street branch --

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] -- she was a librarian. And she wrote Passing, which was published in 1929. She was a really, you know, interesting person. I read a little bit about her. So she was a librarian. But she also was a nurse. She went to the Lincoln School of Nursing, which was a school set up to create black nurses in the early 20th century. She was, like, one of the first people -- NYPS used to have a library school that was run with Columbia University. So she was the first black woman to graduate from that.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] And she, yeah, and she's, kind of, also, but she's mostly known by the world as a Harlem Renaissance writer, even though she only published two novels. This one, Passing and Quicksand. But despite being a nurse and being a librarian she's known for contributing to the literary tradition of the Harlem Renaissance. So she wrote this book Passing any it, kind of, takes place, you know, when she wrote it. Kind of, like, at the heart of the Harlem Renaissance in Harlem. And, okay, warning, I'm going to spoil the ending of this book, because I feel like it's necessary to talk about it. And so it's really --

[Frank] Well, then [crosstalk] go back and tell the ending of the book I discussed. No, I'm kidding.

[Rhonda] I was gonna say, really?

[Frank] All right. So we have warning, you're giving fair warning. That's good. Okay.

[Rhonda] Giving fair warning. So, you know, if you want to come back after you've read it. And actually it's only, it's very short, it's only 116 pages.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] And it's broken almost, and reads almost, and was broken up almost, like, a play. Broken up into three parts. The first part is called Encounter. The second part is Reencounter. And the last, the third part is Finale. So it centers on these two women Irene and Claire. And it's mostly seen from the point of view of Claire's perspective. And so what, it's called Passing because both of these women are black. So both of them have the ability to pass as white. They are, they look like white women, even though they are black. And they can both, kind of, pass in the white world. So Irene, even though she can pass, has decided that's gonna live herself, live her life as black. She has a black husband. She's involved in, you know, black social issues. Even though she looks like she can pass. She decides to live in her black community.

[Frank] Mm hmm.

[Rhonda] While Claire has decided to completely pass. She's going to live her life as if she is white. And so they knew each other as children. And the first part, Encounter, is when they, kind of, reunite. They're both in this really, really fancy restaurant. And they, kind of, run into each other. And this is interesting, I believe that she, kind of, opens the book this way, because you automatically, kind of, see the complexities of these two women. So Irene who's decided, you know, I'm gonna live my life as black, she's obviously passing so that she can sit and eat in this restaurant. And so she, kind of, justifies it as, you know, well, if they ask me if I'm black then I'll say I'm black. But if no one asks me, then I'm just, kind of, go into this really fancy restaurant and sit down and eat.

[Frank] Wait, she wouldn't be allowed to eat there or --

[Rhonda] Right. Exactly. So this, kind of, a very fancy, you know, restaurant that does not allow --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -- African Americans to come in.

[Frank] Sure.

[Rhonda] Right. So this is, you know, this is still the 1920s. So she's, black people would not be allowed. But she is here. And she, kind of, she's -- and you get the sense that when it is convenient for her she passes. So, like, if she wants to go into this certain store that's whites it's only, you know, she doesn't say anything. She just goes in. With, kind of, the caveat that, oh, if anyone asked her she would say, yes, I'm black, and then she would leave. But, you know, she takes advantage of it when she can.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And then Claire comes into this restaurant. And even though Claire is completely passing, she sees Irene, and she's, you know, she's really excited. She remembers her from childhood. They haven't seen each other in decades. And she, kind of, you know, just intrudes into her space, her lunch, because she's so excited to see her. And I think she originally believed that Irene is passing, too. So she thinks maybe she's found this, kind of, comrade. And Irene, kind of, makes it clear, like, I'm not really passing. And then Claire's, like, it doesn't matter, I'm, you know, I'm really lonely. I see, you know, so great to, kind of, see someone from, who I've known from my childhood who I can, kind of, reconnect with. And she's talking about, kind of, how she's living this isolated life. But at the same time she's asking Irene, like, why have you never passed, you should pass, it's so easy.

[Frank] Oh, god.

[Rhonda] So you, pretty much, see, kind of, the dynamic right away of these, kind of, two women. And, kind of, the other -- It's mostly centered around them. But there are two other characters that are really important, which I should bring up in the beginning are their husbands. So Irene's husband, although he's black, you know, kind of, like, with the book you were talking about, they automatically, kind of, bring in some really interesting class issues. Because he's black but he's, you know, he's a doctor. He's very well educated. He's, kind of, part of this black elite. They, kind of, are, you know, estranged, because they have a lot of arguments about how to raise their children. He wants to take his children to live in Europe and Paris to, kind of, get away from United States. And he has the ability to do that. And they run in these, kind of, high end social circles. And Claire's husband is white, obviously, but he is really racist.

[Frank] Does he know that Claire is, has black -- Like, is Claire -- Are these women the have black parents? Are they mixed or does it not say? Or does it not matter?

[Rhonda] So it doesn't say for Irene. But it says something, like, Claire's father was half.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Was biracial.

[Frank] So does Claire --

[Rhonda] So --

[Frank] -- husband know?

[Rhonda] No.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] Claire's husband. She lives, like, as if she were born white. Claire's husband thinks he is married to a white woman.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] He despises black people. And, you know, they, kind of -- and the only time Irene, kind of, gets a glimpse of what Claire's world is like is when Irene gets invited to Claire's house for tea. And the father, her husband comes in, Claire's husband, begins to say some, kind of, really horrible, kind of, racist things about black people. And Irene doesn't really say anything, 'cause she realized that Claire's husband also thinks that she's white.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk], kind of, expose Claire. But, so they, kind of, live in these really different dynamics. So what happens is Claire, kind of, becomes this parasite in Irene's life. Her husband travels a lot. So whenever he goes Claire is really, kind of, latching on and infiltrating into Irene's life. She wants to go to every kind of event that Irene's throws, even if she's not invited. She just starts to show up. And she's really charming. She, kind of, starts to win over Irene's friends. And, you know, she's just moving in this world, kind of, taking over, kind of, Irene's place. And it's really interesting because, you know, Irene, obviously, kind of, starts to get a little jealous. And you're, kind of, wondering, you know, if Claire's really, you know, committed to passing as this white woman why is she all of a sudden just, kind of, taking over and infiltrating herself into this, kind of, world of the black elite.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And you, kind of, get point, the idea that Claire is almost, operates a little bit as, like, a sociopath. She doesn't really to seem to have much of a conscience or much self-awareness. And she, kind of, just goes after whatever she wants. So there's one quote that she says to Irene, you know, can you realize that I'm not like you a bit. Why to get the things I want badly enough, I'll do anything, I'll hurt anybody, I'll throw anything away. And it's, kind of, clear then maybe she wants to have Irene's life. 'Cause Irene is, kind of, having the best of these, both worlds. So what happens is Irene begins to suspect that Claire is having an affair with her husband.

[Frank] Oh, my god.

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk], kind of, like, the juicy part. And then --

[Frank] Soap opera-esque.

[Rhonda] It is a little soap opera-esque. And what happens is -- And here comes the dilemma and the part about passing, is Irene is thinking to herself, like, well, how can I handle, you know. Because really I don't want to lose the lifestyle I'm living. And that's, kind of, really what she -- she doesn't seem to be that close to her husband. She seems to care more about, you know, staying with her children, and, kind of, maintaining this lifestyle. And she's thinking, you know, how should I deal with this affair. And, then, of course, she's, like, well, the one way that I could really squash this is to out her. You know, I could go to her husband --

[Frank] Oh, she's not convinced that, she's not, she doesn't have proof that she's, Claire' is actually having an affair, though, she just really suspects it?

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] It's neve proved. But Irene really, she starts off with, kind of, the seed, and then, you know, I guess it's just her paranoia that just grows and grows and grows in her mind.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] And then all of a sudden, you know, even though there's no proof ever in the story that it's true --

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] -- she makes it true to herself, you know? And it does seem, kind of, you know, there are hints to it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk] Claire doesn't, if Irene doesn't want to go to something with her husband all of a sudden Clair can go. You know, things like that happen.

[Frank] Mm hmm.

[Rhonda] So she's, like, well, I could out her.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But then [inaudible] has this whole back and forth with herself about if she should or if she should not tell Claire's husband that he, that he's married to a black woman. And she goes, this is a quote, she goes, she was, or the book says, she was caught between two allegiances, different, yet the same, herself, her race, race, the thing that bound and suffocated her, whatever step she took, or if she could none at all, something would be crushed in person or the race. Claire, herself, or the race. So she has this, kind of, dilemma, like, is it worth betraying this black woman who tried to live this different life. Or is it more important to save my own marriage and my own happiness. So that, kind of, you know, she, that goes back and forth. And the ending is I'm gonna, kind of, this is where the spoiler is coming up, everybody so --

[Frank] [Crosstalk] now.

[Rhonda] Yeah, if you want to stop the podcast and come back I'm gonna, kind of, tell you what happens so -- She, they're all, of course, they're at another party. They're always at these fancy parties. And Claire is, you know, just, you know, being her normal, charming self. And all of a sudden the husband comes in, Claire's husband comes in.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] And he confronts her. And he's obviously he's so angry, he finds out, he's found out what she is. And you don't know how he's found out. So we don't know was it Irene, was it because, you know, Claire has been spending all this time with black people, there's somebody, you know, has seen her. But he has found out. And he is irate. And Claire, and Irene is, kind of, standing next to Claire. So all of a sudden Claire falls out the window. And she falls to her death.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] And -- Exact. And you don't -- and there's different, kind of, viewpoints. So Irene, kind of, says she doesn't really remember what happens, but she remembers putting her hand on Claire's arm. So did she push Claire? We don't know. But then there's the point of view, you know, her whole life has been exposed. So maybe Claire committed suicide. Or did we not know it and her husband pushed her out the window, right?

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] So there's, kind of, this very tragic ending. As I said, it's, kind of, like, this play. But, you know, there's a lot of really interesting issues. Of course, the whole idea of passing and race. By there's the issue of class. And also, you know, we're coming up to the hundredth anniversary of the Harlem Renaissance so --

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] -- with, you know, reading this story is, kind of, interesting, because there's a lot of these, kind of, cool references in there. You know, they talk about the musical, I don't know if you, you've probably heard of it, Frank, Shuffle Along?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. So they talk about seeing that musical. And they talk about Ethel Waters and Carl Van Vechten. So there's, kind of, these cool Harlem Renaissance references. But what is really interesting, and is the whole, you know, just the whole idea of passing. And she, kind of, Nella Larson gets into it just a little bit, but what the sacrifices you have to make in order to pass during that time. And she touches on it when she talks about, you know, how scared she was when Claire had a daughter. And how scared she was before the daughter was born that if she would appear black or, you know, and how she had to, kind of, cut her ties with everyone. And it reminds me of another book that I have here, and I picked it up again. It's called Our Kind of People.

[Frank] Oh, yeah, I know [crosstalk]

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk] upper-class, right, by Lawrence Otis Graham.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And there's a whole chapter on passing. And at, in that chapter he wrote, he writes 17 rules that you have to follow in order to pass as white. And I want to read just, like, a couple of them.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] One of them says, you have to re-create your family tree by describing yourself as an only child born of parents who died years ago, and who are also only children.

[Frank] Oh, my god.

[Rhonda] So, yeah, exactly. It says, you, what is this other one that I wanted to read here? Sorry.

[Frank] No -

[Rhonda] Oh, here's one. You have to avoid sitting with or being photographed with black people, because if you have any vaguely black features those characteristics will be exaggerated and suddenly make you seem quite similar to real blacks standing near you. The similarities will quickly become obvious to all. And you have to avoid the risk of giving birth to a throwback child with black features. Consider adopting a white child. And then, of course, it says, you know, you have to cut yourself from your family, from your community. You know, so part of, you know, I'm wondering if part of Claire's issues were the isolation. Because in order to really live as white you have to really isolate yourself and completely cut yourself off from everyone. So I'm gonna stop there, but I --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- ask the -- Oh, sorry, what were you gonna say?

[Frank] No, were those rules you just read from the Graham book? Were they --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -- like, published things or were they, was that something that black people had access to in terms of, like, a pamphlet? Like, where were these rules [crosstalk] --

[Rhonda] So I would have to read the rest of, reread the chapter.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But what I believe is it was, kind of, what he put together from all of the research he did on passing.

[Frank] Just, like, the lure of passing what you would --

[Rhonda] Exactly. Of what people had [crosstalk] in order to -- and they could've been, you know, he found them in some other written documents. But that was, kind of, like, all his research was what people had to really do, or thought they had to do, to pass.

[Frank] It's so interesting, 'cause, like, the book that I read, Such a Fun Age, like, the, to the white character Alex, like, Emira, her babysitter's, blackness is exactly what can, will, might bring Alex salvation [phonetic]. Like, [inaudible] the blacker she is the better, in quotes, you know, that that is something that she needs to actually become a fuller person. Or to become [phonetic] a focused person. Which is progress?

[Rhonda] It, I guess it depends, you know?

[Frank] Progress from Nella Larsen's time, maybe. But not --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- but not that great, you know? I mean --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's so interesting. I mean, does Nella Larson write it in a very -- 'Cause it's, certainly the plot points sound very lurid in some ways. But it, I guess that's, do you think that's a thing to draw you in and there are other points to be made? Or is she writing something literary we would say?

[Rhonda] You know, I would have to say a little bit more towards the lurid side.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] You know, there is a lot of high, kind of, drama that happens --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- in here. You know, and especially, kind of, the way the character of Claire and how she just, kind of, infiltrates. And how she has this, kind of, like, narcissistic --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- you know, personality. You know, she definitely has, kind of, a bit of intrigue and drama with her. So I would definitely say that. And I did want to also add that this book is not in the public domain. So you can get this book really easily, even anywhere, even on the Internet archives.

[Frank] Oh, it is in the public domain.

[Rhonda] I'm sorry, yes, it is.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] That's what -- Yeah. Thank you. It is in the public domain.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] So I had purchased my own copy. But, you know, it's easily, you can find it easily on the Internet.

[Frank] Mm hmm.

[Rhonda] And I, it's really, you know, really short. And, you know, again, because it is so short it, kind of, really only scratches the surface of this whole issue of passing.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And it's about that. It's about race. It's about class. But it's also really about, kind of, these, the lives of these two women and how they intertwine. But, you know, also if that is a topic that someone is interested in reading that chapter from our kind of people is really fascinating.

[Frank] Yeah. It is fascinating. I mean, after we've discussed [inaudible] between the world, I mean, like, it's still, obviously a book like that keeps coming back. And I keep thinking of different issues and, that he talked about. And I, like, this idea when, about whiteness, like, when he says about white people, oh, those people who think they are white, who believe they are white. Like, the concept of whiteness, like, that doesn't quite exist, it's something that's constructed. And so, like, one of the questions that hearing you talk about passing is, like, and the rules that are laid out in that Our Kind of People book, the nonfiction book, like, what nationality would one say you are? Because at any different time, like, being Irish or Italian or we're not exactly considered the whitest of the white, and you might not want to say you were that, you might want to say you were something else, because that gave you even more power.

[Rhonda] That's so funny that you say that, Frank, because that's actually one of the rules is, kind of, [inaudible] say, you know, depending on how white you look is depending on what you would say your background is. So if you have maybe a little bit darker complexion you might want to say that you were Greek or Italian.

[Frank] Oh, my god.

[Rhonda] So that's, like, that's rule number 12.

[Frank] Oh, my --

[Rhonda] [Crosstalk] about passing. About saying, you know, where, you know, you could say that you were from. Creating this, you have to create this whole back story and background for yourself. So --

[Frank] It's incredible. It's --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- like a whole performance. Talk about --

[Rhonda] It is. It is exactly what it is. And that's, kind of, how Clair -- and speaking out between the world and me there is a, kind of, a scene in this book where Irene and her husband are sitting at the dinner table with their son, and her son is asking questions about a man who had just been lynched. And, you know, his father's trying to explain it to him. And Irene's, like, no, he should not hear this. He's too young. And he's, like, well, this is the world he's gonna be --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- living in. Like, this is his, he needs to know these things. So again it kinda comes full circle, like you said, with the book that we were reading, you know, even though this is written literally, well, not, almost 100 years ago.

[Frank] Yeah, that was what was so, one of the many of the things that was powerful about between the world and me about that, sort of, like, introducing your children who you love to what you see is the reality of the world. But, you know, not sugarcoating it. Or it's such a weak word to use. But you know what I mean. Like, not a --

[Rhonda] Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Frank] -- not alighting [phonetic] it.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank] Wow. We got two hot books here, kid.

[Rhonda] Yes, so, we did.

[Frank] That sounds so intriguing. I wonder if they ever made that into a play or something. It sounds like it would be quite the melodrama with the --

[Rhonda].Exactly. You know, I should have looked that up to see. You know, I would not be surprised that they have made that, made this into some, kind of, dramatization. Because it reads a little bit, like I said, like a play, like a drama.

[Frank] Oh, right, you said. Yeah.

[Rhonda] So I would not be surprised if this is, you know, been made into something.

[Frank] Do you know, I mean, I can really be, like, leading into your beloved profession, if the Schaumburg Library has anything on Nella Larson, like, any of her papers or anything?

[Rhonda] I'm sure we do. I have no, I should look.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But I [crosstalk] --

[Frank] -- corner you with that.

[Rhonda] No, no, no. You now, we probably have -- I don't think we have -- Well, I could, you know, we can put that in the blog.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And look that up and see, kind of. 'Cause we may have a couple of things here and there so -- Yeah. Definitely.

[Frank] I can totally imagine this is a play, like, for black audiences the time that would travel around. And I would definitely see it as something -- I mean, maybe not just black audiences. But, like, you know what I mean --

[Rhonda] Mm hmm.

[Frank] -- like, at that time they were probably very segregated plays in theaters. What this would appeal to.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I'm curious. Wow.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] good press, you know, on the back of a book they put, kind of, like, praised them [phonetic] and, you know, WEB Dubois [phonetic] was talking about it. And apparently she got a Guggenheim Fellowship to continue to write these, her novel. So, yeah, it was, you know, it was very, very provocative for that time period.

[Frank] For sure. So she only wrote two books, Nella Larson. She was busy being a nurse and a librarian otherwise?

[Rhonda] Exactly. And says she wrote a few short stories. But she only published a book called Quicksand in 1928. And then Passing came out in 1929. And those were the only two novels she ever wrote.

[Frank] Huh.

[Rhonda] Mm hmm.

[Frank] Well, Nella Larson, that's somebody to look up.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Somebody to look up. Thanks, Rhonda. That was intense. Do you want to -- Oh, you want to announce the next book that we're both going to read as part of our continuing reading through the 125 books we love list that celebrate 125th anniversary of the New York Public Library? What our next title will be?

[Rhonda] You wanna tell them?

[Frank] Do you want -- All right, I'll do it, fine. You twisted my arm. Oh, my god. I don't like talking.

[Rhonda] I'll let you take it. I'll let you take the reins on --

[Frank] I'm very shy about talking in public.

[Rhonda] Sure.

[Frank] It's a book that is catalogued, or categorized, under the romance genre. Which is, like I said earlier in this conversation, like, I'm a poopie head about genre books, but it's so ridiculous. But I'm curious about it. It's on this list, 125 books we love list. And it's a book called An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole from 2017. So An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole is the next book we're gonna read together. So the next time you hear our beloved voices you, Rhonda and I will be discussing that book. And we will be revealing all about it. So read it --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -- before. If you've read it, you guys listening, then tune in if you'd like and see what we have to say about it. And that's our next book, An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole.

[Rhonda] I'm excited. I have not really read romance novels. So this'll be a new experience for me.

[Frank] All right. So we'll both, like, at our own places, like, pour a glass of champagne as we discuss it the time at 10 in the morning.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Whatever it is. And really get into this genre, and see what it's going on. And see if we think it would be a great, a genre book. I don't know. Or whatever that means. So I'm excited, though.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Anything else?

[Rhonda] I think that's it.

[Frank] Are you good?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Wow. This was a lot of fun.

[Rhonda] It was.

[Frank] I love talking to you. It's, like, one of the bright spots of my time in life right now.

[Rhonda] Aww, thanks, Frank.

[Frank] It's always that way so -- So we will see you guys the next time. And thank you so much for listening to The Librarian is In.

[Rhonda] All right. Bye.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Library is In, a podcast for the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe. And leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@NYPL.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary please visit NYPL.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.