Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Hello fellow social distancing book enthusiasts! How y'all doing? Does anyone know what day it is? What week? It's not still March is it? We hope everyone is staying safe and finding ways to stay sane as we navigate this unique and scary time together. 

Escape with us for a bit while Frank and Rhonda discuss how they've been holding up and the importance of structure  during this time. 

This week our intrepid hosts share what they've been reading while staying at home:

Frank chose the novel The Man Who Loved Children by Christina Stead. 

Our next book club episode will cover Train Dreams by Denis Johnson. We encourage everybody to get an electronic copy (or pull it off your shelf if you already have it!), read along with us, and then tune in for an in-depth discussion!

Train Dreams by Denis Johnson

More things we talked about today:

• A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara
• The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt
• War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy
• Big Little Lies
• Little Fires Everywhere

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Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

"Spring Flowers" by Pixabay user Gábor Adonyi is licensed under CC BY 2.0.

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Transcript

[Frank] Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Librarian is in, the New York Public libraries' podcast about looks, culture and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda!

[Frank] And we're here to talk to you about what we've been reading while we've been at home. How are you, Rhonda?

[Rhonda] I am doing well, you know? I'm trying to stay connected. That's my goal. So, I feel like I'm doing that. So, so far, so good. How about you? How's everything?

[Frank] Everything's pretty good. I'm sort of, in a weird way, I'm slipping into a -- Like a lot of people. Like, not knowing what day it is when you get up.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And, it's sort of -- I have a thing about freedom and being enslaved to something, and not sort of being -- It's a harsh word, but sort of being -- Enslaved to what the weekend is, what the week day is, is sort of nice. Like, you know, it's like, oh! It's Friday! I'm going to have a cocktail. And now it's like, well, it's Tuesday. Have a cocktail.

[Rhonda] Yeah. I mean, is just -- For me, I try to work like, maintain a regular schedule, you know? So, like, during the week days, this is the time that I'm going to get up, you know? These are the hours I'm going to try to do most of my work. I feel like that kind of helps to not have me so disoriented about the time and the dates of the week. But, you know, it's hard, when you're in one place all the time.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, I'm definitely slipping into a, like I said, which I'm sort of liking, do whatever I want, whenever I want, like I have that sort of bratty thing in me.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But I am, the thing I'm stricter about is that I don't want to mess up my sleep schedule, too, because sleeping is so important. So, I am setting my alarm to get up at a certain time, but I'm sort of enjoying this do what one will. And, you know, work when one wants to.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And, you know, though, that is interesting, because, unfortunately, that's not a privilege, right now, that everyone has.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] So, you know. So, it's like some people are, you know, have really strict schedules at home. Some people, unfortunately, have to go out, you know? Thinking about all of -- -- our essential workers out there.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So, I understand, you know? It's something that's -- There's the good things you're doing, your partner staying at home.

[Frank] Right. And you picked up exactly where I wanted to, as well. Because every time I think of that -- Oh! This is sort of nice, I immediately think that it's not nice, you know? [inaudible] ultimately is not. And I, like I haven't really posted to Instagram, because I don't -- I don't want to be irreverent about it, [inaudible] about it. The situation, because, you know, there are people who are suffering and it's not -- It's something I just can't quite do, but, you know, we are human and if we are mercifully ok, then, you know, we live life every day. But you, like you just very wonderfully pointed out, you cannot, really can't forget, and doesn't, what's happening to other people at this moment. It's like a global situation.

[Rhonda] Right. And, at the same time, though, making the best of the situation, right? So, you're at home. Well, you're doing the best that you can to --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Get through it. So, you found the -- You found the good part of having to stay at home. So, that's helping you kind of get through this --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] What I think is what a lot of people are doing now is, you know, doing things to make the best of the situation. Try to find ways to enjoy being at home. You know, connect. How they connect with their family. The books that they're reading. So, you know.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] People's doing what they have to do to make it through.

[Frank] Is this interesting? Living specifically now, like, living in the middle of history. Like, the story has not been told yet. And I, sort of, sometimes, whenever I get anxious. So, there's one thing I get anxious about is like I just want it to be over and to know what the story is. Like, what the whole -- How we're going to look at this as a historical event?

[Rhonda] Right and what kind of narrative we'll come out of.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Narratives that will come out of this. And, [inaudible], you know, I've been, you know, keeping contact with the librarian archiving community and people are trying to understand how they're going to document this, you know? As [inaudible], that's going to be very important to us. How people are documenting this time, for the future. So, our people journaling and our people -- You know, I know people are on Instagram and our people, how our people kind of preserving this moment.

[Frank] Well, I think I read an article about the Library of Congress, that -- I think it's the Library of Congress. It would make sense if it would be, that are -- They are, actually, documenting the digital world very ferociously. We got an article on our e-mail about that, from someone in our library community. I should've -- Just came to mind. It's a -- I think it was in the Wall Street Journal or New York Times, but they are actually [inaudible] documenting like the [inaudible], like Twitter and -- And like you said, Instagram. So, one has to, in a way, when you think about it, like, because that's one of the primary ways of communication. So.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Well, thanks for bringing me back to the library world, little Mrs. --

[Rhonda] Always. Yeah.

[Frank] She's like, well, I've been in touch with the archival community. I'm like --

[Rhonda] Always.

[Frank] I'm like in a [inaudible] with a martini, for God's sake. Good for you.

[Rhonda] Good. Yes.

[Frank] So, what have you been reading, then?

[Rhonda] Ok. We're going to jump right in?

[Frank] You want to?

[Rhonda] Yes. Ok. So, funny enough that you made fun of me for always bringing about to libraries, because I actually read a book about libraries.

[Frank] Oh, god, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] I know. Ok. But there's a -- There's a reason why I did this. You know? Because I remember. Ok, so, last time we chose our own books. I did, you know, a Non-fiction. I did a History. So, I want to make sure the fans know that that's not going to be the book every time, but because when this episode airs, it will be national library week and, you know, there has been [inaudible], within the library community of like, you know, even though the physical buildings are closed, you know, all the great work that, you know, libraries are doing, it kind of help. You know, that's not -- You know, kind of like that's behind the scene. You know, a lot of people don't talk about it, but libraries are, you know, really doing great work. So, I wanted to talk -- I read a book, a really great book by an author, he's a librarian and he is a historian. And, it is called Freedom libraries. The untold story of libraries for African Americans in the sell. And so, I wanted to kind of talk about this because this is like a part of History and a part of the Civil Rights Movement that is really, really unknown and it's kind of really fascinating look at this part of History, in kind of connecting now to how libraries are really so instrumental to, you know, our communities. So, kind of to give you, you know, a little background of like what are Freedom libraries. So, I don't know, Frank, if you remember the freedom summer, which is -- It kind of took place in 1964, with their [inaudible] number of different Civil Rights Organizations that came together and they would [inaudible] volunteers out to the deep, deep South and into other places to register African Americans to vote. And so, one part of this, which was one organization, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. [inaudible] not did just have campaigns to vote, but the [inaudible] centers where people could learn and things like that and within every center, they had a library. And that was called the Freedom library. And, you know, these are all run by volunteers and it was kind of -- It was really dangerous, because, you know, during this Freedom Summer. What have -- I think is that, at least, seven people were murdered. Thirty homes and businesses were bombed, thousands of people were arrested and beaten. So, you know, all these kind of volunteers from the North, mostly college students were coming in and kind of running these libraries, these centers and these, you know, freedom -- This voter registration.

[Frank] So, Rhonda, in a -- So, this is a 1960s for -- In the South?

[Rhonda] Right. So, the book focuses on a handful of States. He focuses on Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas and Pennsylvania. [Inaudible] mostly Philadelphia, but these are all over the South.

[Frank] But the violence was done by like the Klan and the police?

[Rhonda] Exactly. Yeah. And mostly the Klan and there's some other kind of organizations that were, I would say Klan adjacent and the Law Enforcement.

[Frank] Because they were trying to organize and do this good stuff, right?

[Rhonda] Right. You know, because mainly, what's voter suppression and segregation, people are, you know, this is right before Brown v Board of Education. So, people were really, really, fighting against integration.

[Frank] And, so, this isn't the early 50s?

[Rhonda] What, in the 50s and 60s. [Inaudible]

[Frank] Because Brown versus Board was 54, I think.

[Rhonda] Fifty-four.

[Frank] And then, Civil Rights at the 64.

[Rhonda] Sixty-four, sorry. That's why I'm thinking of the Civil Rights Act. Yes, thank you. Sixty-four.

[Frank] Oh, [inaudible]. Ok. [Inaudible] Early sixties, right before that. Ok.

[Rhonda] Yes. Exactly.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] So, you know, the libraries are necessary for those -- For those reasons. And [inaudible] kind of set, you know, gives us some facts. He said, one interesting fact was, you know, the people think about this like in 1937, 87 percent of, you know, the minority community had no access to libraries. And in [inaudible] Arkansas, in the 1950s they had 100 libraries, public libraries, and they only had integrated two. So, all the rest of the libraries were segregated. So, you know, it was -- And he talks a lot about like, in the preface, he kind of talks about the lawsuits and the arrests of trying to integrate these libraries. And, they didn't, you know, and that's kind of why they had to start with these freedom libraries, because they didn't have access to these other libraries, which I think is an important point. Because I feel like there's this kind of myth around libraries, that we have always been this very open place, you know? Very intellectual freedom and all of this. It has not always been the case in our places.

[Frank] Well, for every and for everybody.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] When we say like, libraries are for everybody, it seems much more true now than it certainly was then and it reminds me of like the [inaudible] people, you know, say, oh! To go back to a simpler time when things were better, it's like [inaudible] with say, not for everybody.

[Rhonda] Exactly, not for everybody. Right. Exactly. Like, yeah, the new public library says libraries are for everyone. The new public library, though, wasn't [inaudible] ever segregated library. But, you know, a lot of them were.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So, yeah, like you said. And it was, you know, and it was interesting where these libraries were, you know? They put them wherever they could. They had rented buildings, they had houses, attics, shacks and they were just put out [inaudible] halls, you know? They would put ads and like magazines like Harper's for books and people would just send, you know, thousands and thousands of books and they would ask for a list, you know? For books by black authors and about African American History and things like that. And like, people like the New York [inaudible] library will send out this list. So, they had created this really amazing spaces. Actually, they said that one of the Freedom libraries in Alabama, in Selma, was actually at the time it was open the largest library in Alabama, in terms of volumes. So, these were like really great places and just kind of, you know, some of the characters that he talked about in the book, which I think were interesting, there's a woman named Virginia Steele and she had just graduated from UCLA School of Librarianship, never worked at a library before. She wanted to kind of volunteer for this Freedom Summer, and they said, oh! You are a professional librarian. Well, we're going to put you in charge of the library. So, there is this new librarian and she just was like in charge of the big, you know, project and she was one of the very few professional librarians who worked in the Freedom library, but the author kind of talks about how important that was to this, because she was a [inaudible] catalogue and, you know, developed the collection. She created check out cards and pockets with index cards. And she also, you know, she [inaudible] had to repair books, but one of the things she did was that she was the one -- One of the few that actually gave library cards and understood like the importance of actually having that physical card and kind of what it -- You know, what that meant. So, she was, you know, she was in charge of a lot of these libraries and that kind of started her librarian career. So, there was kind of, you know, there are people like that who are behind. This another couple that he talked about, Mickey and Rita Schwerner, who was another librarian that Mississippi, you know, they would do things like bring children in for the story time. You know, they would take the children's books and strategically placed them within the adult books. So, that people who didn't have high literacy skills kind of [inaudible] of finding those books and kind of a sad note, Mickey, the husband, was -- You know, he was arrested a few time for buying books, but then he and two other volunteers went to a church to kind of start talking about creating this freedom school and on his way back, he and two other volunteers, James Chaney [phonetic] and Andrew Goodman were murdered by the Klan. So, you know, people who were involved in these libraries, again, were really -- In this, you know, very dangerous situations.

[Frank] So, were these black or white librarian?

[Rhonda] They were white almost all of the librarians and the -- A lot of the volunteers were white, mostly college students.

[Frank] How were they like you said Virgina Steele and the couple, like how -- How were they recruited, so to speak, like how did they find -- Who was finding them and bringing them in? So, it was really well organized these -- Like the groups, like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and some of the other Civil Rights Organizations. [Inaudible] kind of created this whole almost like a Summer Program that you had to apply to and be accepted into. So, people couldn't just say, oh! I want to volunteer, I just -- You know, just show up. You had to submit an application, you had to be accepted and then you had to go and have like really intense training, a safety training, you know? Because of the violence and all types of -- And then, they would give people different assignments, according to what they thought their skills were. So, which is why Virginia Steele, who was -- Just graduated from library school was of course put in charge of the -- The libraries. So. So, yeah. It was a really well-organized kind of program that they had for this -- You know, for the -- Mostly for voter registration, but that was why the libraries were so important, because a lot of the voter registration, you know, rules were that people had to pass a literacy test. So, another reason why these libraries were so important at the time, because they really fed into their main mission of getting people to vote.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And so, another interesting was, there was a guy named Bryan Dunlap [phonetic] and his father was a professional librarian. And I believe in New York. And he was in head of the [inaudible] Freedom library, I believe in Mississippi. And his father was sending him books on cataloguing and reference and all these things and the library was bombed. And he wrote this letter to his father, telling him about the bombing. And then, he kind of made this apology in a way it's kind of funny that his father has sent him a book that he had gotten through [inaudible] and he was like so [inaudible] that the interlibrary loan book had been destroyed in the bombing, you know? And of like a true librarian, right there.

[Frank] Classic librarian. Oh, my god.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] about the interlibrary loan book, you know? Protecting someone else's. Someone else's books. So, I thought that was funny and just you know, the library, you know, again, like they kind of started to fade out around the end of the Civil Rights movement and -- But, again, like the reason I kind of chose this book was because they kind of just make sure. You know, do we emphasize the importance of the libraries in times of crisis and in times of struggle? Like we're going through right now, you know? And [inaudible] libraries really supporting a lot of people. And one of the great things about these freedom libraries is that a lot of them were destroyed. But when they were destroyed, what they would do is they would just move to another location and just start it again. And once they would start it again, all the people would come back. Even if it was bombed, they didn't care. They didn't care about the danger. They came back, right? And they had to overcome a lot of this anxiety of the danger and never have gone to libraries before. So, you know, I didn't want to, you know, make it seem like I was kind of reading the same books every episode. But this one I thought was really important to talk about now, because of the situation that we're in and how libraries are supporting people and how is kind of always. In libraries had kind of always been the backbone, supporting communities in times of crisis and a lot of times, people don't see it. A lot of times, people don't realize it and that's why kind of these books, this kind of hidden histories are -- Are really -- Are really important. So, that was my peak this week, Frank.

[Frank] Absolutely. Always, always, always be reminded of History that we don't know and to realize what life was like at different times, for different people, and to not -- Really, not forget that. But I get it now, what -- You know, why you chose it and it's true, because I think most of us, librarians, are thinking, right now, like how can we help. Like, we always end up thinking, at some point, how can we help? And where. Where is our help needed and right. You know, a lot of librarians are doing a like remote programming with different software, you know? Google hangouts, whatever, to try to connect with their public and stuff. And I -- I have always been such a physical person. Like, about bringing in community to the space and dealing with people one on one and that is an interesting -- Interesting challenge right now, but I'm curious also, as things level off, like, what we will -- Where we will be needed. And you know that libraries will rise to the occasion. I really have faith in that.

[Rhonda] Absolutely.

[Frank] You know, by our leadership and by ourselves. Though, I see where you brought me, darling. I see this. That's wonderful. Ok. So, Rhonda has a plan. She's got a plan. So, I'm going to, like, I think down the road, we're going to -- And it's on the books, a 125-book list -- There's -- We're going to read some romance [inaudible] some adventure, something -- Something fun.

[Rhonda] I'm excited about romance --

[Frank] Alright. Great.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] read a lot of romance novels.

[Frank] There -- Well, there's one on the list. Oh! And speaking of which, we will announce, at the end of this [inaudible], the next book we're going to read from the New York public libraries 125 books we love list. And you guys listening, and read along with us, and we'll discuss it on the next podcast in a couple of weeks. So, that we will announce. Don't let me forget.

[Rhonda] I won't let you forget.

[Frank] And, you can all -- Everybody can actually find out about that, too, on nypl.org/125.

[Rhonda] Yes. Well, alright. What have you been reading?

[Frank] Well, I referred you before, you know? In a positive moment, that I started very languorously, slipping into a reading in the afternoon, with a cup of tea, or coffee, or something, you know? Half-dressed, lying in a -- On a comfy chair and, you know, the sun [inaudible] rainstorm. I remember one afternoon last week, there was this giant rainstorm, do you remember that?

[Rhonda] Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Frank] And I was reading, and I sort of was so into the book I was reading that end of storm happened, I looked up and I didn't know what time it was, or what day it was. And, there was something very voluptuous about it. I know --

[Rhonda] Where you on a chaise lounge?

[Frank] No! On a chaise lounge, in a peignoir.

[Rhonda] With the ascot as [inaudible]?

[Frank] The ascot! A peignoir and an ascot. You're [inaudible] both genders. Well, not quite, but still very lovely. I know. Like, everything is double edge. Like, you know, feeling like, you know, thank god I'm doing ok and that kind of thing. But it was lovely, and I only say that because I chose a book that -- In, before we closed in conversation with Petra [phonetic] to discuss what we might want to read for our next book discussion group. She has said, well, why don't we read the most famous unread book of all time and that's considered a classic, but not many people have read it. And I was like, what? And she said, it's the book called The man who loved children, by Christina Stead. And I was like, very intrigued. That was like the most unread classic of all times. So, I immediately investigated this and decided to read it for the April book discussion, which we won't have physically, but I possibly can arrange in other ways. But --

[Rhonda] Absolutely.

[Frank] In its over 500 pages and I say that -- I mean, I'm always like resistant to say, not about how long the book is, if it's good. Because if it's 200 pages and it's not a good book, are you, like, getting into it? It's going to be an ordeal. If it's 600 pages and you're into it, it's going to be great. But, still, just sheer volume can be daunting, and I was, oh! This is a long [inaudible] of saying, when I, without having to go into work or being, you know, quarantined -- -- this amount of time to sort of really get into this book and not feel -- Oh, dear. I'm never going to finish it, because I have so much else to do, kind of thing, which is, you know, something I have to work on. But any who. So, I read Christina Stead's The man who loved children. And it was written in 1940 --

[Rhonda] Ok.

[Frank] Virtually ignored. It was rediscovered in 1965 and, you know, got a little more attraction. And then, Jonathan Franzen, in 2010 wrote a [inaudible] to a new edition, which got it much more on the map. So, it's taken like 70 years for the book to even be in the public eye. But as Jonathan Franzen said, and others, that it's not a book for everybody and it certainly won't be for everybody. But he says that if somebody -- It is for that small group of people who discover it and will be thrilled they did. So, it's a hard book to recommend, per se. I will be interested and when I actually do talk to people in the library about it, how I recommend it, how I go back talking about it. I mean, again, it reminds me of a book I read a couple of years ago, that I brought at many times called A little life, by --

[Rhonda] Oh, yes. I love A little life.

[Frank] Yeah. By Hanya Yanagihara, but that's a hard book, I think, one or few agree around it to recommend.

[Rhonda] Oh, yeah. People love it, or they hate it.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] category with The goldfinch, you know?

[Frank] Ok.

[Rhonda] Like, people love or hate that book, as well.

[Frank] On a [inaudible], right. Perfect. Great -- [inaudible] you are, because this book is actually -- It's going to join that category, because -- It's an interesting book. Alright, so, it's basically about a family. A very large family. You know, parents and then, there's about six kids, all under the age of 11. And they live in Georgetown, Washington D.C. And the dad is a -- Works for a city, you know, in the government, for Marine Biology. Like, fisheries and preservation or conservation, like that. And is this sort of jovial fount of knowledge. Loves being with his kids. Character that you and is described with blonde hair and sort of like this golden like guy, who sort of very happily and optimistically and full of all like these democratic ideals goes through life and imparts that to his kids. And his wife was like a very wealthy heiress in the South, whose father is charmed by this guy. Sam is the name of the dad. And Henry [inaudible] is the name of the wife. Henry and his father is charmed by Sam, and then she is, as well. By the time we meet them with their six kids, she is not happy. She is very unhappy, bitter, regretful, angry, angry person. So, you have the setup between this sort of angry woman married to this sort of like jovial, optimistic, sort of [inaudible] to the earth guy. Or, so it seems, actually. Because what eventually evolves is their relationship is revealed through the book as something a little different that you first encounter. At least, as I first encountered it. Because, you know, you get the wife Henry and she's [inaudible] comes and she's just like [inaudible] has [inaudible] on all sorts of things about how bad her life has turned. How awful it is. How regretful she is and how she didn't expect life to be this way and she slaps the kids out of her way. And, you know, the dad is just like -- Like I said, this sort of golden being. But, as the book of [inaudible], you also meet the kids and the oldest one is named Louisa, or Lou-Lou [phonetic]. She's like 11 and a half and she's sort of someone you pick up, get a point of view from, throughout the book. And the other kids are sort of like a chorus in this sort of what can be almost termed a Greek Tragedy that unfolds. And I think about this book in a way as more of a tragedy, like a Greek Tragedy, than a melodrama or a soap opera. And it made me think like what is the difference between something dramatically tragic or a soap opera and that -- And this is where it's typical for people to [inaudible] to like the book is that the book doesn't try to make you like it. It doesn't try to show the characters in a way where you, I say, you can slip into some version of sympathy for them. It almost [inaudible] with their personalities, to the effect that you just are just like shaking your head in recognition. But also, just shaking your head like, oh, my dear! Why do I want to spend one more minute with you?

[Rhonda] Is it kind of like the -- Like the -- May be similar to some of the Flannery O'Connor? Flannery O'Connor's characters you might have [inaudible] discussion?

[Frank] Yeah. You could say that. It could, because the gothic come into it. It's certainly with the Henry character, the wife. Because every time she comes on, you turn the page and you can see that there's like an unbroken paragraph coming. And she's basically just going to throw down about on how unhappy she is and how bitter she is. And then, you have -- So, there is that element. And there is the sense of dread about, like, what's going to happen. Because I entered this book like not knowing a thing. So, I'd started off being like, wow! That's a harsh mom. And then, the guy, the husband, some people find very amusing and I could see how they would, because he's that dad who gathers the kids around, and enchants them with stories and fairytales, and stories about his life, and he makes up languages for them. A lot of the book also -- The accent that he puts on. Like, he puts on these weird accents to entertain the kids, based on various fairytales and storytellers through the ages and he makes up his own language that the kids learn. And you could see how he'd be pipe piper of a dad. I mean, I was a little bit sad -- Funny, I was more suspicious of him, for some reason, than I was fully hateful of the mother. Because, as it turns out, like, the mom is very obviously bitter as I've described, but there are enough moments that show you she's not full on abusive to the kids. She's not abusive at all. Well, I should say hitting kids is not a weird thing in this book, in 1940.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's a part of --

[Rhonda] Different times, back then.

[Frank] Oh, yeah. And there are moments of racism -- I mean, the whole thing is in there, not completely unconscious by the author. She knows what she's doing, but it's in there. She has enough -- She's a maternal person. She's just very unhappy. And what's interesting is that the kids, you get from the kids, that they are -- They understand that. So, when she comes in and goes off, they all know, in some way, this is her story. This is her. This is not about us. They get that. It's interesting and how that's revealed through the wonderful writing that Christina Stead has. Back then -

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] So, it is kind of the mother story, more so than is not [inaudible] at all.

[Frank] Well --

[Rhonda] Per se, about this one -- But is it more her story?

[Frank] I'm more -- I guess, maybe, I was more fascinated. But it is called The man who loved children. It sounds a bit creepy, but it's not. But I'm -- It's -- And so, him that, I should say, is as it goes on, you realize his frivolity and optimism and expounding of wonderful ideals to its children, turns into something darker. Darker than the wife, even. Because, like I just described, the kids sort of pick up that she's very maternal, but she's unhappy and it's nothing to do with them. The dad, who really becomes obviously a very prominent figure, is a narcissist and a child himself. And his whole demeanor is geared towards -- And is rapturing and enslaving, really, his kids to his personality. He seems like this [inaudible] guy, but everything he does is geared towards making sure his kids are his audience. And his perception of what he wants them to be.

[Rhonda] Is there [inaudible] kind of give, in a way, like a competition? Does he want to be the good person in the family? Does he want to be the one that the kids would turn to?

[Frank] Oh! He wants to be the --

[Rhonda] Good guy, you know?

[Frank] Yes. He's like Sam. He calls himself Sam the bold and very derisibly the wife calls him like, you know, Mr. God. He wants to be the sun, the earth, the moon, the stars. And he does. And that's what sort of gets, as you read it, almost insidious, because at certain point, maybe page 300, I was thinking, I will, as a kid, if I were his kid, I would've completely been bought into that. Because it -- To the -- Yeah, because it's dishonest. In a weird way, the wife, for all her anger and fury is an honest person. Whereas, he is this character that needs so much for his own narcissistic personality, that as a kid, I would've been like, well. He's so good and so wonderful, and everyone's so charmed by him. How -- Why am I feeling this other thing that's not so good?

[Rhonda] So, she's kind of -- Is she the only person who kind of really sees him for who he is? And it's like the rest of the world, and the children and, you know, maybe outside of the family kind of fall for what he's putting out there, but maybe she's the only one who sees this?

[Frank] Yeah. Pretty much. But, you know, for me, and it's all about your own personality as you read it, her endless unhappiness is hard to read. And I was just like that's why I just said about how I would've bought into what he did. Is that, I was just like just, just, you know, total line. Like, he's not that bad. Like, just to calm down and don't be so unhappy. But what you realize as it goes on is that it's -- It's a pretty nasty endeavor. I don't think Sam the dad knows. I don't think he particularly knows consciously what he is doing. He thinks he's a good guy, but it's sociopathic. I mean, he is -- It's all in the service of him. And it has nothing to do with the wellbeing of the children. The children are just there to make sure he has an audience of worshipers. And it's sort of a horrible thing as you realize it, because -- I had to be honest with myself, as like, I would've had a lifetime of problems because I would've never understood why I felt so bad with such a great dad and is not. And that's illustrated in the book. I mean, the writing is sort of amazing.

[Rhonda] It sounds. Is it -- Would you classify it as a slow burn?

[Frank] It -- Yeah, because like with the other books we mentioned A little life and The Goldfinch, it's like you are forced to spend a lot of time with these people. And that's sort of the delight and benefit of a book that is longer, because you can, with broader strokes, create this family like in a much shorter book. But, by virtue of every time you pick up the book and say, ok, here she comes again with the [inaudible], he or he comes again with a lecture on the wonders of democracy and Franklin Roosevelt and nature. You're like -- Oh, boy. Alright. Let's dig in. And then, when I was finished like reading for the night or the afternoon, I would just be shaking my head, like sort of like, oh, dear, how could I've [inaudible] through that in a way. But I did, like it's sort of -- Like I never felt like I can't do this. I can't read this book. It kept me going. And --

[Rhonda] I don't --

[Frank] Go ahead.

[Rhonda] Sorry. [Inaudible] I don't want you to spoil it, but I'm really curious about the ending now. So, maybe I'm going to have to --

[Frank] Well, so you do get the third voice that's very much hard. The book is 11-year-old daughter, Louise. You really never know which kid is going to get the most attention and that emerges that the oldest child, Louisa, Lou-Lou, is a voice to reckon with and it's her evolution that you -- You get, in relation to her parents and how she comes to feel about both her parents, which is a little bit of what I eluded to about the parents and how I felt about them. And it does come to a -- I guess I won't spoil it. I feel like a lot of people might possibly not going to read this book, but -- Or they might start it and be like, hey! But I do recommend it. But, it's a toughy. So, it does come to a point where -- That I was saying before, I would've been one of the other kids that were just sort of enamored of my dad, weary of the mother but sort of -- Not to questioning and would've wondered that my whole life why I'm messed up, because I never really saw the dad for what he was. So, The man who loved children is sort of a -- It's not such a [inaudible] just going to be this sort of sweet [inaudible] about, literally a man who really was -- Genuinely love his children, but he loved them for not so great reasons. But it does come to a point where Louise, the 11-year-old, by the end of the book, she's 14, because these three years of life for these characters, makes the decision that pretty darn tragic, Greek, drama [inaudible]. And that could be the little Flannery O'Connor, in that it has this gothic turn that could be -- That's quite extreme. It's quite extreme. I won't tell anybody, but -- It's, you know, she basically makes a decision about how to deal with her parents. Let's put it that way.

[Rhonda] Ok. So, yes. You have me intrigued, now.

[Frank] But, I wished I suffered a bit yesterday, because I was just like I have to be able to read a passage from this book. There's just so many, like, her psychological inside, that's really what kept me going, is that you have these characters all set up and you have these long. And there are -- There were critics. It's why it wasn't as popular, who were just like this is too excessive. The book is too excessive. It has too much about these [inaudible] of Henry and these pontificating blow hard speeches of Sam, which is sort of true. I guess, I would sort of be reading it and like glace off a bit, and then go back. But it's the interstitial times throughout the book, mostly Louise's observations, through her eyes, that are psychological acuity that is so [inaudible] and so beautifully written. I mean, you really get a sense of place. There really is a lot. What's the longest book you've ever read? Just to be prosaic.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible]

[Frank] You have, I mean, it's sort of, again, compared to a book like that in that you are -- Do end up spending a great deal of time with these characters in this world and the world it's created in. So.

[Rhonda] Has she written a lot of books?

[Frank] She did. She wrote about 12 other books. You know, not a lot -- This is considered her most famous, obviously, at this point, or the most famous unread book. It's sort of like -- You're just forth to encounter this family in a way that -- That is very typical. I mean, like, [inaudible] every family is unhappy in their own particular way, but all happy families are the same.

[Rhonda] Alright. I'm not sure, though.

[Frank] That quote comes -- That comes to mind, because like -- You're put into an unhappy family in a very specific way. Like, is not particularly translatable to everyone's experience. You can certainly recognize elements like I did. I've put myself into the position of the children, which you almost a force you'll be put into. Because they are an audience, a chorus if you will, to the Greek drama of this King and Queen of the family. The mom and dad. And, you can't help but wonder, like, how would I have emerged from this family? How would I have navigated this family? Like I said, I don't think I would've. I think I would've been too dad dominated. I don't know, you never know, but - It's a worldwide read, if you have the time, which -

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] have the time? Yeah. It sounds -- It sounds like it's making some kind of like, reemergence. So, which is great. And when you first described it, for some reason, I was thinking, this sounds like a Joan Crawford films.

[Frank] She's like no. But in a way, I mean like, I think if you're not thinking so much of a Joan Crawford film, but more like Mommy, dearest.

[Rhonda] Ok. [Inaudible]

[Frank] [Inaudible] Because in this Joan Crawford, they're just like, no! [inaudible] Why [inaudible]. Which is actually very much, in a way, not incorrect. The mom sort of is that way.

[Rhonda] You know, she had this kind of period in the 50s, where she played these, kind of, unhappy manipulative matriarchs. I don't know. If you're a Joan Crawford fan, but she kind of had these little like spot in her career, where she had all these, I'm the kind of tyrant of the family films.

[Frank] Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I probably waited what I said a lot about the mom and, but like I said is -- It is an insidious thing of the dad that comes off as the jovial guy that really is the true horror of the family.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank] You know what I mean?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Like it's like her violence and her -- Is different than the Joan Crawford violence. Is violent and horrible. She says horrible things. They sort of -- They both do, but his is worse because he should say get out of my face, you idiot kid. Or worse. I mean, worse than that. Like, you fat greasy nothing. Get the heck out of my face. But the dad will do something that's like, oh. I can't even recreate it, like that horrible -- That's why I said I would've bought into it. He would say to the kid. Well, you don't know much. You really don't know much. You need me to tell you how wonderful life is, but just follow me, baby. It's ok, sweetheart. You're not that smart, it's ok. Like that kind of thing. Like, do you see the difference? I'm not really recreating it, but it -- Like, her violence is right out there to see. His is [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Hidden. Yeah.

[Frank] See? You're six years old and you're like I got called stupid, but he's [inaudible] mildly and so lovingly, seemingly lovingly want to take care of me and show me the right way that, you know, I must be stupid, but I thank god I have him to show me the right way. So, you see how that can do [inaudible] a personality. Anyway, but I like your Joan Crawford [inaudible].

[Rhonda] That was the first thing I thought when you -- In the beginning, not towards the end, you know. Because you explained it further, but in the beginning when you were describing the family members, that was kind of what I thought.

[Frank] But you're right, because I really had to contemplate, like this is -- If I was watching this and you had to read some of these monologues, like hers, is very Joan Crawford and that's why I was like, is this a melodrama? What's making me feel like this is not just like a melodrama of something that's minute geared to manipulate my emotions. In their favor, it's more tragic in that I'm watching this volcano of action and can't quite get into it. Can't quite emotionally relate to it, because it's so huge, rather than like Joan Crawford movies are geared to make you sympathize and sort of feel a sense of, oh! These emotions are so intense, but --

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Yeah. Anyway.

[Rhonda] But it's not [inaudible] in. Like, there are moments where you just kind of really couldn't put it down. So --

[Frank] Oh, for sure. And I'm so glad I read it, so. It's funny, I did see, you know, which is not comparable completely, but did you see the show Big Little Lies?

[Rhonda] Yes. Yes, I did.

[Frank] Did you like it?

[Rhonda] I did, actually. Is based on a book, right?

[Frank] Yes. A Liane Moriarty book.

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] very, you know, popular one, but I have never read the book.

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] But I did watch the show and I like the show. What did you think of it?

[Frank] I did. It's funny, it was my non-book recommendation, because I had the DVD, before we closed, I took [inaudible] a whole bunch of DVDs and that was one of them, as if the series -- The first season and it's very glamorous, in Monterey, California. Very rich people and their problems. But what I liked about the show was the glamour, sort of Joan Crawford element of melodrama. But I like how the characters get more than one facet. Like, there's not -- No one's fully guilty, no one's fully innocent. There was a complicated relationship with the characters. So, like, you know, there's a bad marriage, certainly, one of them, where the husband is abusive. But the way they play it is -- The abuse is not in question at all, but the -- -- the complicated emotions of the abused woman are brought to light. It's not like melodrama where there's this villain and an innocent victim. The abuse is real, but it's complicated when you're living it. And I like that. I thought Nicole Kidman and Alexander Skarsgard, who played that couple, were really good.

[Rhonda] They were excellent and Reese Witherspoon, you know, now she has the adaptation of Little fires everywhere out on Hulu. Which is very -- Which is kind of in the same vein, the way that they represented it. So --

[Frank] Alright. With Kerry Washington is not?

[Rhonda] Kerry Washington, right.

[Frank] Reese Witherspoon obviously is in Big Little Lies and she's hilarious. She's so good.

[Rhonda] And she's very kind of similar in Little Fires Everywhere, but you know, they address those same things. The family dynamics and, you know, being presented with these characters and how they believe that they originally go [inaudible] slowly kind of showing all of these other facts of their life.

[Frank] Right. I love that. Like the Reese Witherspoon character in Big Little Lies and she's very much a -- You know, you think you're going to actually dislike her in the way that she's funny as heck. But then, you really grow -- I keep -- How could you not like Reese Witherspoon, anyway? She has a lot of colors to her personality and she's not all the -- As good or bad as you think she is, and I love that. So, I really enjoyed that, and I sort of like, as they say, binge-watched this.

[Rhonda] Now is the time. I've binge-watched that, as well. And I also, as much as you could, because they're not going to [inaudible] the season but binge-watched Little fires everywhere. So, I think you might like that, Frank. If you binge-watched Big Little Lies.

[Frank] Now, that sounds wonderful. Anything else? Anything else you want to throw out?

[Rhonda] I think we have [inaudible] had a great discussion.

[Frank] What is it like? What day, what kind is it? I don't even know. How about, Rhonda, my darling, it was nice to -- Oh! It was nice to --

[Rhonda] Don't forget the book that we're going to discuss.

[Frank] Oh! Guys! I knew there was something here. Well, so, our next book that we're going to read is from the -- That Rhonda and I will read together and then discuss, in two weeks, is the book called Train dreams by Denis Johnson. D, e, n, i, s. That's Denis, I guess it could be Denis, but Denis Johnson's Train dreams. It's a novella, so it's slim, and I don't know anything about it. I picked it from the list because I don't know anything about it, and I want to discover a new author. So, I'm sort of excited to read it. I don't know what I'm going to encounter, what we're going to encounter, Rhonda. But --

[Rhonda] I have no clue.

[Frank] Well, good. Then -

[Rhonda] I'm not -- I'm not -- Yeah. I was not read from this author -- I've not read this book. So, I'm excited to see, to just jump in and see what it's all about.

[Frank] And it was, you know, a book selected for the list of best books of -- Or best -- Books we love, for the last 125 years. I was on some of those Committees, but it wasn't a book I picked. So, I'm curious to see what another librarian picked as one of their favorite books of the last 125 years. So, Denis Johnson's Train dream, which we will discuss next time, if I'm not mistaken.

[Rhonda] Great.

[Frank] Alright. Well, I realize how lovely it is to talk to you, even though I can't see you.

[Rhonda] Always have the good conversations and I leave wanting to read these new books that you've [inaudible].

[Frank] Hey! That's our job, kid! This is we're here for.

[Rhonda] That's what we're here for.

[Frank] Well, alright. So, what do I have to do to -- To wrap this? I always forget, like find it on iTunes?

[Rhonda] You can find it on iTunes, wherever you can hear podcasts. [Inaudible]. Slash 125.

[Frank] There you go. Nypl.org/125. Podcasts at nypl.org, if you want to leave a comment.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] You just got a nice compliment the other day from somebody who read you, one of the books you recommended, Mouse.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which is lovely. So, yeah. Alright, everybody. Take care and stay well. And keep reading and we will be back soon to discuss Denis Johnson's Train Dreams next time.

[Rhonda] that you read it, too.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to the Librarian is in, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast or Google play. Or send us an e-mail at podcasts at nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125 Anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Pharrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.