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Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to the Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] There she is. Rhonda's here.

[Rhonda] Here I am.

[Frank] And here we are on our second episode together. We had some nice comments.

[Rhonda] That's what I was going to say. We got some really nice comments.

[Frank] About the -- the reading public seems to have embraced you with open arms.

[Rhonda] And I'm so happy. I looked at some of the comments this morning, which is kind of dangerous, because I was like, "I don't know what I'm going to see." But it was--

[Frank] True.

[Rhonda] -it -- I know. It was really nice. People are very receptive, which is -- it kind of puts the pressure on now.

[Frank] Just don't get too cocky, alright?

[Rhonda] Don't get -- okay. But--

[Frank] Just remember who's the boss here.

[Rhonda] -okay. Alright.

[Frank] It's not me.

[Rhonda] Alright.

[Frank] Just remember who's the boss.

[Rhonda] Second episode, everybody. Look at how he's acting.

[Frank] We're already at internal fighting. Is there any problems behind the scenes with this podcast? But today is the day that -- first of all, how are you? Are you--

[Rhonda] I am great.

[Frank] -are you good?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Okay, good.

[Rhonda] Basking in the glow of all those wonderful comments.

[Frank] Yes. It's true. It's wonderful. So, hopefully we will keep our momentum going. I was going to say, of course, like, "I feel tired," because I didn't sleep that well last night, which is not often. But it was one of those like fretty -- like fretting. I was fretting about things, and then I remember, speaking of comments, you never know what you [inaudible]. I once got a comment about me that said, "Oh Frank, stop whining." I know, because I was whining about some -- not understanding some book, and then I thought I was going to come in and be like, "I'm tired, Rhonda. I'm tired." And then I was like, "You're whining." So, it was like, "Alright--"

[Rhonda] No, you're just--.

[Frank] -"I'm not going to whine," but--

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] -or as much.

[Rhonda] As much?

[Frank] I reserve the right to whine a little bit.

[Rhonda] I think it's okay, but just a little bit. We've got to keep a cap on it, Frank.

[Frank] That was subtle. I don't know if I enjoy being put in my place like that, but we'll see.

[Rhonda] Just a little bit.

[Frank] Remember, you're on probation.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] You already got the job, basically.

[Rhonda] Well, thank you.

[Frank] So, we're here also to discuss our first book that we both read together, that is also on the fairly recently released New York Public Library's 125 Books We Love, which is a book list of books, celebrating the last 125 years because the New York Public Library is 125 years old.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank] I know. So--

[Rhonda] That's a long time.

[Frank] -you can find that list, if you haven't seen it already at nypl.org/125. And Rhonda and I decided, or discussed and thought we would read, "Giovanni's Room,"--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -by James Baldwin, which is on the list.

[Rhonda] Yes, it is.

[Frank] It's our first book that we are going to discuss together, and you guys can look forward to us discussing a bunch more throughout the year to celebrate this 125 Books We Love list. So--.

[Rhonda] Yes, and we will let you know in advance, so you can read with us.

[Frank] Thank you. Exactly. You're always there to support me. Thank you, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] You're welcome.

[Frank] So, "Giovanni's Room,"--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -by James Baldwin. What's up?

[Rhonda] Yes, so are you ready, Frank, to go to Paris, 1950's?

[Frank] Fifty-six--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -he wrote it in? I'm ready.

[Rhonda] Alright.

[Frank] I was just there because I finished the book last night.

[Rhonda] Great.

[Frank] And it was quite an experience.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I have to say. I did read it when I was in college.

[Rhonda] Yes, me too.

[Frank] And I of course, of course, the experience is so different.

[Rhonda] Right, because I read it 20 years ago.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] And it's just like -- it's really interesting reading those books at kind of different stages in your life.

[Frank] Oh my, God, yes.

[Rhonda] And kind of what you get out of it at those stages. I really don't think I appreciated it as much as I should have when I originally read the book.

[Frank] I agree. And I think that's often the case, and there's also you notice so much about the different eras, the different times.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Different perspectives. Well, we'll talk about it. There’s certain things that we -- I want to discuss with you if James Baldwin meant intentionally, or he was commenting on at a distance. There's certain things in the book that are actually could be quite problematic in some ways.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] But anyway, so do you think we should give -- so, we're going to spoil it up over here because--

[Rhonda] Yes, spoilers.

[Frank] -the point of this is to have you read along with us and if you don't, then read it and come back to this podcast later.

[Rhonda] And the book is quite old, so we're really not spoiling it.

[Frank] Right, right, right, right.

[Rhonda] You've had plenty of time to read this book.

[Frank] And a lot of these books are so much about, if I can say, so much about the reading experience, meaning it's -- these are not like -- well not -- I'm talking about the list. A lot of the books -- I was going to say, are not intensely plot-driven, even though that's not true. Some of them are. But like reading a -- let's just stick to what we're talking about here, like James Baldwin. James Baldwin, reading James Baldwin, you're not reading for a plot per se.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Like you're not going to read like, "Oh, what happens next when the door opens?" Like, "What's happening?" That's all great.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] But it's really the depth of emotion he tries to convey. And James Baldwin is one of those writers that does, strives for and achieves often, giving language to complex emotions.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Which I love because it gives me language to my own complex emotions. Helps me give language to my own feelings and thoughts--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -which I think is one of the primary great things about reading is that all we have is our heads.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] You know? And we're in our heads all day long for the rest of our lives, and we have tons of emotions and tons of feelings and without language to describe them, we can't surmount them, deal with them--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -manage them, enjoy them. And I think that's where great writers come in. So--.

[Rhonda] And he writes with such precision, too.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] So, you really kind of -- he gets all of that by writing so simply. This book is very short.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] It's not very long, but there's still so many layers to it.

[Frank] That's a good -- you know what I thought of when I was reading him is like there's certain great writers what -- that make them great to me is that I feel like I trust them. Like I feel like I trust James Baldwin to navigate me through this story--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -with integrity and that he's -- integrity to his own art. You know what I mean?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] It's a feeling.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I just feel it. That doesn't mean he was particularly trustworthy. I didn't know the man.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But his work makes me trust him.

[Rhonda] Exactly. I feel the same way. Yes.

[Frank] Alright. So, that's a good [inaudible]. So, what are you -- so the plot basically, you alluded to Paris.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Just a little barebones of what--.

[Rhonda] A very barebones -- you know, he kind of sets out the plot for us in the very beginning. So, I could -- we start in the south of France in the 1950s, and the main character who's telling us this story is named David. And so, David is kind of giving us this confessional on the night before his lover Giovanni is executed. And so, he kind of flashbacks and tells us about coming to Paris with his girlfriend, who decides she wants to travel in Spain. He gets evicted. And then he ends up meeting this beautiful, Italian bartender named Giovanni. And he ends up moving into his room with him. A little maid’s room and they become lovers. And it's about this kind of volatile, love affair and his -- and their relationships with Paris at that time, and a certain side of Paris. Did that kind of cover it?

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And how things play out in this relationship. And--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -it's told from David's point of view.

[Rhonda] Exactly. Yes.

[Frank] In the first person.

[Rhonda] It is and almost -- it's kind of a flashback.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] So, we kind of keep going back to where he is in the south of France and then he takes us back to what's going on with him and Giovanni.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And their group.

[Frank] And their group of characters.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] So, oh boy. There's so much here. I mean--

[Rhonda] There's so much here.

[Frank] -one thing I was going to ask you, since we're just getting to know each other too, is also, are you like -- when you discuss books, do you like to read -- finish a book, then do a lot of research on it, or the author, or when you're reading a book, do you like to -- can you not -- do you find it irresistible to want to find out more? So, in other words, the reading the book is one experience, but you need or might want that other experience of finding out details about the author's life? Stuff like that?

[Rhonda] You know, I think it really depends on what and whom I'm reading. But with the James Baldwin, because everything is so intense and has so many layers, I can't help myself but to kind of go back and see if I can find an interview, or see if I can research a little bit. But then there are other authors where I just want to have the story as it is. I kind of don't want to know what were the other influences within it. So, I think it depends, but for James Baldwin--

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] -I definitely wanted to look a little deeper [inaudible] what was happening.

[Frank] And it's so easy to--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -yes. It's so easy these days to just you know, tootle along on the internet and find out stuff. But also, there's certain things, at least I knew about James Baldwin, before I read it the first time and now, I mean, that he's a Black man.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] He was a Black man. He died in the late 80s. So, that's one element.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] That he was gay.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] So, there's certain things -- anyway, I just was curious about how you read certain books. But because there's certain things that we do know. And it's interesting because the book, David, as you alluded to--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -is White.

[Rhonda] Yes, and that's very interesting.

[Frank] It is interesting and it's funny, the one thing I remembered most from, oddly enough, from reading it the first time was being startled when in the first page, David describes himself with his beautiful, blonde hair. And I was like, "Wait, James Baldwin's Black. How could this guy have blond hair?"

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] "Wait a minute. What's going on here?" And then I'm like, "Okay, he's doing something else."

[Rhonda] Well, you know, I did do a little research into this actually, because not only is our main character David, White, but the -- everyone in the book is.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] There are no Black characters in this book. And obviously, we know that there were Black character -- or people in Paris at the time. James Baldwin was one. So, I was kind of interested in like what was this all about. And an interesting story that I actually read in the introduction of the version that I was reading, which was the Everyman's Library version, and so, he wrote "Giovanni's Room," and he gives it to his publisher. And the publisher says, "We cannot publish this." And you're thinking, "Well, maybe it's because of the content. He talks a lot about sexuality in the 50s." But that's not what they said to him. You know, he had just come off of "Go Tell It on the Mountain," which was set in Harlem, about Black life, like Black experience, and they said to him, "We're not going to publish this book because you are a Negro writer and you are the Negro writer. Like, people expect you to write about, you know, Black people, Black experience, Black in culture. And if we publish this, this is going to ruin your career."

[Frank] Like betray your readers--

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] -in a way.

[Rhonda] And they said, "You'll lose your audience."

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Right, because you know, "No one expects you to write about all -- White characters." So, he had to really shop this around to a lot of different publishers before he actually got it published. But then, you know, understanding like, "Well, why does a writer whose so well-known for speaking out about Black issues, about you know, in his interviews and his essays, want to write a book about all White characters?"

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] And he said, kind of, you know, we have this idea about intersectionality. He said that he really couldn't do both things. And I have a quote, if you want me to read.

[Frank] Yes, please.

[Rhonda] I found from an interview. And one of the things that -- this is what he said. He said, "I certainly could not possibly have, not at that point in my life, handled the other great weight, the Negro problem. The sexual moral light was a hard thing to deal with. I could not handle both propositions in the same book. There was no room for it." And that's the end of the quote. But he felt that he couldn't write about both things at one time. It was too big.

[Frank] I mean, it's overwhelming to hear that, in a way, because the book -- in other words, as I understand it, to take on a Black character, who's also experiencing bisexuality or being gay, in the 1950s--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -I could see could be an overwhelming task.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I mean, it's -- and because what James Baldwin does tackle here is sexuality, but also masculinity and femininity.

[Rhonda] Exactly, right.

[Frank] And those are huge topics, as well as the sexuality topic. So, he's saying clearly, to add race to this, which is a very, self-aware thoughtful response to what he wants to talk about.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] I think that's actually to be appreciated and I think we can't underestimate the bravery--

[Rhonda] Yes, I think also significant--

[Frank] -it would have been to write this.

[Rhonda] -right, significant to show that. Not only did he decide to remove the race issue, but he removed America from the issue--

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -completely. Like we think, "Oh, it's in Paris because he was living in Paris." But it could be he just wants to remove the whole idea of America from it. You know?

[Frank] Well, that's a -- you're right. That's another issue he tackles, which beyond the sexuality, masculinity, and femininity, which is Old Europe versus New America--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -which is also implicit in this, or explicit at times. And that difference, because there's certainly a difference in outlook of sexuality between David from Nebraska, from--?

[Rhonda] I thought he was from Brooklyn?

[Frank] Oh, right he didn't--. I'm really forcing the issue. I'm making it more dramatic than it needs to be.

[Rhonda] You're making it very all-American.

[Frank] Why did I remember -- you were absolutely right. There's a great -- there's a couple of great scenes in Brooklyn with his father.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] His mother dies when he's very young, and his aunt--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -who comes to live with him. And also, Joey.

[Rhonda] Yes. Joey.

[Frank] His -- Joey. David's -- they're like 12-years old and their first--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -David's first awareness of his attraction to boys.

[Rhonda] Which is a really, really great insight into kind of who David becomes whenever we get to that part.

[Frank] So, I was going somewhere, but I forgot. But which of these issues do you want to tackle, or do you not want to go about it that way? Meaning like the masculinity, the femininity, or more about David's personality. Do you want to get into?

[Rhonda] Well, it would be interesting to discuss David's personality--

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] -because it kind of -- all of that kind of comes together within him.

[Frank] Oh, thank you for doing that. Organizer supreme. So, David.

[Rhonda] Yes. Oh, wow. David, man. He's got so many -- first of all, I know like when we read books, you don't kind of read for characters to be likeable or not likeable, but I find that David is definitely not a very likeable person, in my opinion. But I feel like the genius of James Baldwin is that he may not be particularly likeable, but he's also relatable because of kind of the humanity that James Baldwin has created around him--

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] -and the layers and this -- and kind of giving us an insight into why he is the way he is, which I think starts with the Joey situation.

[Frank] To interject, David -- it occurred to me after that I realized, which I didn't remember going into it again, was that this book is not romantic.

[Rhonda] Nope.

[Frank] There's no romance here.

[Rhonda] None at all.

[Frank] And I thought, "Oh, that's right. There's a big, passionate affair between David and Giovanni," but David is not a romantic guy, and nor does he have easy access to love.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] And it doesn't infuse the story. It actually can be quite cold and sort of harsh at times, with David's dealings with other people, because he's not that guy.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] So--.

[Rhonda] And David can be -- was quite cruel to a number of people in this book, including Giovanni and Hella, his fiance.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] He did some cruel things.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] But the first episode with sleeping over his friend's house in Brooklyn--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -not Nebraska, Joey.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] At the -- like 11 or 12, I guess.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Thirteen? Pretty beautifully written.

[Rhonda] Beautifully written.

[Frank] And sad.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I remember he said something like -- basically, you know, they're boys sleeping over together, and then they're rough-housing. And you know, one looks up and one looks down at the same time and they end up with their mouths touching. And then that just launches them into being human.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And loving each other. And James Baldwin says via David that he didn't think there would be enough time in the world to actually -- to completely love Joey.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] That it unleashed something in him that was so powerful that he could spend the rest of his life in that act of love, and never quite reach the full potential of love with this kid.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which is probably the first and last time you get something that sort of poignant about David in a way. Probably not the first and last, but you know what I mean? Like, it reveals something that he can't manifest in his later relationships.

[Rhonda] Yes, and I also have this quote from the date -- from the Joey experience where David says, "The incident with Joey had shaken me profoundly, and its effect was to make me secretive and cruel."

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] And because what David does is kind of after this incident with Joey, he kind of abandons him. He joins this group of kind of older boys, and begins to you know, bully him.

[Frank] Bully Joey.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Which everybody should -- if we don't already know, like when you've got a bully, there's sometimes another story there. Like you've heard the stories before about people who are anti-gay, or anti-something, and then finds out that there's something quite opposite in their personal life.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] That they're trying to compensate for or because they're afraid of it.

[Rhonda] Exactly. So, he was afraid of what--

[Frank] David was terrified of those feelings.

[Rhonda] -exactly. This feeling of what Joey was bringing out into him, almost kind of like holding up a mirror to David of what he didn't want to see.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And it was -- it was dovetailing directly into a sense of masculinity, and what being a man. And his, as I said, his mother -- David's mother dies early. She's not a figure in the book, and so he lives with his father. And his father is preoccupied with -- he's a loving guy.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] He's that sweet guy in a way. Maybe a little ineffectual. But he basically -- only thing he truly cares about is that David grow up to be a man.

[Rhonda] Yes. That's a big part of it.

[Frank] And there we go--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -with what manhood and masculinity is, and that when this episode with Joey happens, it completely accosts his sense of what it is to be a man, and that's why he reacts the way he does and becomes a bully.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Poor Joey.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] But then Joey moves away, and he never sees him again.

[Rhonda] Right. And I think you see this in almost all of the characters that David interacts with, is that they each kind of show him something about himself, that he can't handle. And so, he becomes kind of this like -- kind of acts out against this, in a way. I don't know if you agree with that.

[Frank] Wait, say that again?

[Rhonda] So, I said like, I think with each of the characters, Giovanni, Joey, even the two kind of side characters of Jacques, they each kind of show him something within himself, that he can't handle.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And he acts out a little bit.

[Frank] You know, I was thinking just -- I had wrote a note on a bookmark about just that. About whatever your sexuality or whatever your personal situation is, it seems like so many human beings so many of is, have to navigate self-delusion to get to real love, or real, humane love. And that self-deception could be you know, even not withstanding your sexuality. It's like what we perceive us to ourselves to be and what we need to be. So, if I feel like I need to be a certain way, a certain masculine way, a certain not masculine -- whatever it is I have to feel, and I encounter you, and you bring up a feeling of desire or love for me. That sometimes, in all of us I think, it sometimes comes back -- comes up against our self-perception, and therefore self-delusion. And we can never -- do you know what I mean?

[Rhonda] Yes, absolutely.

[Frank] Like you might -- I might want you but there is something about you that I can't handle in my own head because of a way I perceive myself.

[Rhonda] Exactly. I noted that same thing, when I was reading the book. And actually, he said something about that when David at the end is kind of like looking at himself in the mirror, kind of judging himself at the end. He goes, "People who believe that they are strong-willed and the masters of their destiny, can only continue to believe this by becoming specialists in all self-deception." So, he kind of finally admits that at the end, that he -- the way that he's been acting is because he's been kind -- trying to deceive himself.

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] Right. Of all these things that you just mentioned.

[Frank] I mean, that's why I said before. There's a certain sort of coldness where you -- even though the language is passionate, the language is very warm and humane and just strong, you realize there's a colder center at it, because of David. And he can't -- his desire for Giovanni just completely challenges his deeply ingrained, self-delusion of what his masculinity is.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] At the expense of him being in quotes, "happy," at the expense of him being, "fulfilled." But then, given the time of this book in the mid-50s, like -- and David says it at certain points, like, "What future do two men have together?"

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And that brings up the American-European access where Giovanni was just like, you know, "What do you mean?" Like, "We could -- we could--." Oh, there's so much here.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Because he -- in a way -- I said it before about language, it's like -- certainly throughout history, same sex couples have lived together but called themselves something different.

[Rhonda] Right, exactly.

[Frank] Like two spinsters living together. Bachelors.

[Rhonda] Boston marriage. They used to call it that, right?

[Frank] Boston marriage. Yes. I mean, and like in Europe I think, like you know, Giovanni has had a female mistress, so to speak--.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -that took care of him. And he sees no, at least we don't get from him, Giovanni, any problem with--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -his desire for David at his having had a female lover relationship.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] He even goes on at one point, Giovanni, that he wishes he could have just stayed in Italy and had a wife and tons of kids and gotten fat and old and stuff. Again, like just sort of contradicting myself, Giovanni also had that inclination to say, "It would be easier just to be what everyone -- heterosexual."

[Rhonda] Right. And it's really interesting that you mention that about, you know, well, yes in Europe, they could kind of have this relationship, whereas David even says something like, "Well, you know, back in the United States, this is illegal. Like this is a crime."

[Frank] Yes [inaudible].

[Rhonda] But, that kind of brings to mind the two other characters, the kind of side characters. There's Jacques -- Jacques, and I don't know how to -- Guillaume? Is that how you would say [inaudible]?

[Frank] Guillaume.

[Rhonda] Guillaume?

[Frank] Which is French for William.

[Rhonda] Oh, thank you.

[Frank] Did you know?

[Rhonda] I did not know.

[Frank] Jacques is French for Jack.

[Rhonda] That sounds about right.

[Frank] Jacques and Guillaume are older, gay men--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -in the bar, where Giovanni works.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Guillaume owns it. Jacques is a rich--

[Rhonda] Kind of [inaudible].

[Frank] -yes. I think he's American but born--

[Rhonda] Oh, was he [inaudible]?

[Frank] -in Belgium. Belgium.

[Rhonda] Oh, okay.

[Frank] So, they're sort of European-ish people.

[Rhonda] But I think like the way that David kind of sees them is these like two older, gay men, kind of just chasing after these younger guys, but never really finding any happiness. And it's kind of pathetic, and that's kind of what he's afraid of happening to him.

[Frank] Alright, this brings up--

[Rhonda] What do you think? Tell me.

[Frank] -this brings up an issue, the characters of Jacques and Guillaume. Guillaume's the owner of the bar. Jacques, as I said, the older rich guy.

[Rhonda] And that's who Giovanni murders.

[Frank] Guillaume.

[Rhonda] Guillaume, yes.

[Frank] But and Jacques is one of those characters, older gay men, who desires the young boys, and the young boys go to him for money when they need it. It's made clear he'll give it to them. They're not super sleazy characters. They're not. But the thing that struck me, and I was wondering, waiting to see how Baldwin was going to deal with this, is that anyone who's older, especially these two, are disgusting. They're written -- David says they're disgusting. Giovanni says they're disgusting. They're just old, pathetic, fairies, basically is how they're described.

[Rhonda] That's how -- yes. Exactly.

[Frank] And there was no, I don't think, indication from James Baldwin, to tell us these are human beings, truly. He really was making them a little bit of a -- now that I talk about it, maybe it was just to illustrate David's fears, like you just said. You basically just said it. But I was waiting to see if he was going to give them a little humanity, and he really didn't. Jacques and Guillaume were just like these monsters. They weren't really -- they were predatory, but they weren't predators because they did -- they were never set up as doing anything truly bad. They didn't rape these--

[Rhonda] Yes, exactly.

[Frank] -guys, these young boys.

[Rhonda] Although, with Guillaume, that was kind of iffy with Giovanni, because they never tell you what exactly happens--

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -between the two of them.

[Frank] When Giovanni kills Guillaume.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Actually it is -- that is seemingly a rape.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I mean, yes. [Inaudible] that is.

[Rhonda] But Jacques--

[Frank] We don't really know. It's not fully clear.

[Rhonda] Right, we don't know for sure.

[Frank] Jacques though seems to be a sad, guy who wants love--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -but knows that he's not attractive. Back to looks. I mean, Giovanni is described as beautiful. David is described as beautiful. And his looks dictated another future. But his money complicates things because then without looks, he can get in quotes, "what he wants" with money.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Or helping, not just paying per se as prostitutes, but like has money to subsidize these younger, prettier, boys' lives.

[Rhonda] Yes. And when David leaves Giovanni--

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] -he kind of does that with Giovanni. But I think that's really an interesting point to bring up, is the reason why they don't seem to have a little bit more complex -- complexity to them, is that something that James Baldwin did, so that we can see them through the way that David sees them, or is there something else behind that?

[Frank] Well, I mean like, in this day and age and time we live in, and it's absolutely a wonderful thing that this is happening, I -- someone couldn't write this that way, in a way. There would be accusations and concerns about like, "You're completely being ageist here." Like, "You're making these guys pathetic, horrible, and--." I mean, they're called disgusting.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I mean, it's made explicitly clear and even the fact that Guillaume turns at the end a little bit with Giovanni, could also be like, "Oh great, make the older, gay guy the creep, you know, that has to be the turning point of this point." And so, that's there. I mean, it's -- I was -- I picked it up right away because I -- they were talking -- there was a scene in an early morning cafe where they were describing the logistics of the boys and the men and the female Madame Clothilde--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -cashier. And they were describing the -- some of the younger boys as just looking so [inaudible] marked or bad. And you sort of were getting the hierarchical scenario of how looks play into--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -gay life or maybe all life. And how the younger ones, though they didn't have beauty, had youth. But you could see that they were stressed by it, and sort of like tortured a bit. And almost like dehumanized a bit because of their desires to find other boys like them, but their inability to sort of attract it and that stress. And then of course, the older men who are, like I just said by definition, like sleazy predators.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And Madame Clothilde watching overall, you know, just raking in the money while the boys play. It was -- that was a hard scene I thought. It was harsh. There was no way out. I mean, he was -- Baldwin was saying that particular kind of gay life was just an ugly scene.

[Rhonda] That's how we see it, yes.

[Frank] Everyone's desiring what they desire, but unable to get -- nobody's getting what they want, and--.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Then Giovanni comes in, almost like a blast of energy.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] That sort of blasts through to David and says, "You're coming home with me."

[Rhonda] Yes, exactly.

[Frank] And David does.

[Rhonda] And then they go to Giovanni's room.

[Frank] They do. Oh, man. I mean, just like I said before about the issues -- go ahead.

[Rhonda] And do you see that -- so again, we kind of talked about, they've kind of stripped these you know, kind of real desire for passion and romance and complexity from Jacques and Guillaume, but I also feel like they kind of also did that with Hella. Like, she also seems--

[Frank] I was just going to bring her up.

[Rhonda] -very, I don't want to say simple, but the way that she kind of interacts with him, specifically.

[Frank] I mean, her character to me, grew to be truly shocking in how it was written about how there is -- I don't see, without any more -- without more self-awareness, this character could have been written today either.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because she's -- she's portrayed as like a free spirited, woman who you know, has this relationship with David. Doesn't know if she wants to commit. Goes to Spain to sort of find herself and think about it. Like, you know, she's American. And she eventually realizes she wants to be with David and -- I was going to say emails him.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Mails him a letter, and says she's coming back to Paris and hopefully they can be together forever. But then I noticed, she comes back and she's been this like sort of free love, free spirit gal--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -and she comes back and says, "I'm ready to be a woman."

[Rhonda] Yes, that was so odd. I [inaudible].

[Frank] This is again -- and she's like, "And I want you to be a man."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] "I want to be your woman." And she even says, "I'll grow my hair." I even took the quote. She says to him, "I want to be a -- your woman. I will grow my hair. I will lose my books."

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] When she says, she loves her books. She can't imagine life without them. And she says, "To be a woman would be to lose her books."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Meaning any intellectual aspirations. "I'll cook for you. I'll have babies." I was like, "Whoa."

[Rhonda] Yes, that was such a strange kind of transformation or just like she had to get that all out of her system, this intellectual, independent life that she was having. And just boil it down to that.

[Frank] Yes, she says, here's the quote, "David, please let me be a woman. I don't care what you do to me. I don't care what it costs. I'll wear my hair long. I'll give up cigarettes. I'll throw away my books. Just let me be a woman. Take me. It's what I want. It's all I want. I don't care about anything else." Oh, my God.

[Rhonda] What do you make of that?

[Frank] Well, it's going -- well, I mean, they're basically jumping -- Baldwin is jumping right into these -- I don't, stereotypes?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Or traditional views of masculinity and femininity. It's like to be -- this is 1956, we can't forget.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I mean, it must have been -- but I can't tell if -- because again like with the older characters of the [inaudible], this woman, I can't tell how Baldwin feels about her.

[Rhonda] I know, or like--

[Frank] She's problematic.

[Rhonda] -she is problematic, and again, is this the -- is he just showing us the way that David sees the world?

[Frank] Or how the world sees the world?

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Like this is how you have -- like you can play around in Europe, and have your fun and go to Spain and drink a lot, but you eventually have to come back to being a woman--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -and a man.

[Rhonda] Exactly. So, I wonder--

[Frank] And that's it.

[Rhonda] -or both.

[Frank] The more I talk about it, the more I think he had to have obviously known. I mean, a gay man in the 50s knows about self-deception, knows about roles that we put on or roles that we're handed. He -- maybe the forces that are just against them, because Hella eventually, you know, after I just read that quote, she's all into like, "I want to marry you and go back to America and have babies and live life."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] She eventually walks out because he can't -- David can't deny his desire for men. And she finds out and says, "I've always known it," and is disgusted by him.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And bitter and basically says, "Well, I guess I'll never be a woman," or something like that.

[Rhonda] Yes. Something like that.

[Frank] Like, "I can never now go back to being a woman because this destroyed it." Like, "I could never trust any other man to be a real man." Aye, yi, yi.

[Rhonda] And it seemed like she was going to kind of just live with that until she actually saw him with other men, because I found it hard to believe--

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] -because she did know about him living with Giovanni.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] And I think he even says something of the point like, "Well, I love Giovanni." And I found this really kind of interesting scene when they were in the south of France, reading in the newspaper about Giovanni's execution. She says something like, "Well, didn't you know living with him that he was capable of murder?" And he said, "Well, you live with me. Do you know all the things that I'm hiding?" And she's just like, "I don't know what you mean." But there had to be something there. So, it seems like she was willing to put up even knowing that he you know, had this desire to be with men, she still was like, "I can still be the woman as long as it's hidden over there."

[Frank] Which actually says a lot about again like delusion or -- and I wonder if some would say this is not delusion, it's just life.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because if what you say is true, which I think it is, Hella was like, "I had a feeling you had these things with guys, but I was willing to look away from it, if you just acted the way I need you to act."

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] And that's what I meant before about our self-delusions getting in the way of real love or real humanity, is that like, as long as we all agree, this is the behavior here, and it's giving me what I want, because she wants to feel like a woman, in quotes, have the babies, be subservient to the man, give up her books, as long as he behaves a certain way. And the mistake and the craziness there is that it doesn't -- obeying those delusions, does not really make us happier.

[Rhonda] No.

[Frank] It's that terror of -- maybe it's such a terror of being on the outside.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Such a terror of not having what the mainstream offers. That the traditional way of life says, you know, [inaudible]. "I guarantee you a capitalistic, joyous life, if you too get married, have kids, buy the house, do the thing. And you'll be rewarded for it." But as we know from 50 years of angst, existential, suburban drama, you know, it doesn't mean anything.

[Rhonda] Correct.

[Frank] It doesn't mean you're going to be happy.

[Rhonda] And [inaudible] kind of--.

[Frank] But yet we think it's going to.

[Rhonda] Sorry. And David is kind of saying, "No matter which way you go, you're never really going to be happy." You know? He's like, "If I go and marry her and act as a man, or if I go and live this life in Paris, then I'll end up like Jacques and Guillaume." It's kind of like no matter what he can choose.

[Frank] Does he say that? Does he have--

[Rhonda] He doesn't say that.

[Frank] -that self-awareness? Oh.

[Rhonda] I mean, he kind of has that moment when he's standing in the mirror, but that's just kind of what I took from this.

[Frank] Actually, that -- those moments at the end, this is the end of the book you're referring to. Guillaume has been executed, apparently--

[Rhonda] You mean, Giovanni.

[Frank] Oh, Jesus. Yes, Giovanni. And David's looking in the mirror. To me, the writing there got very much like preacher's son. He was really elevating it to a sermon, and almost -- well, not almost. He was equating that David, saying to himself, "Here I am and all I can hope for is for God's grace to get me through the rest of my life, for God is the one that brought me here."

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Like if he -- I'm actually here the Frank trademark goose pimples I just got, is to him -- for him to say, "The God -- brought me here and he will get me through," it -- I'm making it sound more heavy-handed than it was, but it's probably the one plea to the readers to say, "I'm a child of God, just like you."

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] "I'm a child of the world, just like you." And he -- Baldwin really takes you through some harsh stuff to get to that point.

[Rhonda] Exactly. No, that's an excellent point, to kind of leave that with the reader.

[Frank] The more we talk about it, and this always happens, that's why talking about books is so enjoyable.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Is that considering 1950s, James Baldwin, left America because of such excessive racism, to go to Paris, to find some relief from that, to tackle all these issues, would have been an -- almost seemingly insurmountable task at time to be fair in quotes to men, to women, to what masculinity is, to what aging is. I mean, to characterize everyone with that loving humanity.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's not that he made them villains, but he made them harsh representations of the forces that were -- David felt were working against him.

[Rhonda] Right. And again, he was very influenced by his own times that he was living in. And I mean, I don't know exactly how old he was when he wrote this book, but I understand kind of.

[Frank] He was like 32.

[Rhonda] Yes, interesting.

[Frank] I did look it up. Or even younger, because it was released when he was 32, so he was young.

[Rhonda] Yes. And I believe he started writing this. It was -- it came out in '56 or '57.

[Frank] Fifty-six, yes.

[Rhonda] But I believe he started writing this really early in the 50s, like 1950 or so. Yes, the first couple drafts.

[Frank] I think you're right. This happiness and then -- I was going to say happiness is not in the cards, but it's also made much of how -- oh, Hella says, "If you can't -- if one can't be happy, how can we be American? That's all Americans have."

[Rhonda] Yes, exactly.

[Frank] She's like, "Americans are happy. That's what we're known for. That's what we have to be."

[Rhonda] Right. And you see those references kind of sprinkled throughout.

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] I believe like Giovanni says something along those lines. Yes. You definitely see that.

[Frank] Well, I'm overwhelmed a little bit.

[Rhonda] I mean, it's a lot.

[Frank] Here I go with my whining.

[Rhonda] But it is a lot.

[Frank] It is a lot.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And it's -- I want to figure out why, like, you know? I would be curious about other readers, to see how they read the characters of Hella and the two older characters, because the ages and the slash sexism, is here. But it's almost, I mean, it's here -- I think you're right. I think it's there to -- and it's not [inaudible]. It's ageist and sexist for sure, I think.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Because it represents people more black and white than more complex. But certainly, all these people in this book exist in the world. There are women who said, "I want to be a wife. I want to be a mother. I want--." And for whatever reason, whether it's--

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -whatever. And then there are older gay men who are bitter and disappointed by their lives, and all they have is their money, and they're glad for it. I mean, these characters exist.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] But I guess they're not given full humanity in the context of this book to give David's journey of sexuality a -- do you know what I'm saying? Help me.

[Rhonda] Yes, I understand what you're saying. Yes.

[Frank] I'm just repeating what I said before, I think. [Inaudible]

[Rhonda] Yes, and it's -- and I think like you said, in order -- and maybe I'm wrong. But in order to really delve deeply into kind of what's behind those characters, would also be a lot as well--

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -to kind of undress in this book. So, we see those, and I think that they are there in a way to kind of show us how David is perceiving what's happening around him. But they're also there, because like you said, this is the world as he was experiencing it in the early 1950s.

[Frank] And it is a pretty -- it is an ugly world. I mean, everyone really is harsh. David, too. Like we said, he doesn't come off as like the protagonist that you're sort of loving. He's as cold and self-deluded as everyone else. And we just happen to have his perspective more.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Than you get -- you know, you do have his perspective more.

[Rhonda] And maybe there's -- sorry. There's this kind of experience of trying to just survive, you know? So, with the way that he and Giovanni are, you know, he starts going with Giovanni because he has no place else to go to live, right? And then Giovanni's making these really desperate acts, because he is trying to survive. The thing with Hella, maybe she's trying to just survive and exist in this world. And so, she kind of feels like she has to give up who she is. So, maybe it's a thing of just people trying to you know, get along in this -- like go along in this world.

[Frank] Yes, I mean, even Guillaume who gets murdered is like, you know, he -- Giovanni comes back to the bar and like, you know, he might -- Guillaume sees like, "Oh, finally. I can get this kid, this younger, beautiful guy, and all I have is my stupid money and this bar," but like finally, he's coming back. [Inaudible] he needs something for me, and that irresistible, self-delusion and trick. Like, "I will submerge my own humanity and feelings of love just because it's the only way I'm going to get it is if it's a monetary exchange." And then it turns into something even uglier. Yes, it is pretty sad. I mean, God knows, can you imagine being in Paris in 1951 and writing this book?

[Rhonda] I can't imagine.

[Frank] As a Black, gay man? I mean, can you imagine, just putting to language these experiences?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I mean, Gore Vidal had written a book a couple years earlier about young men's sexuality. But -- wow. What a risk? What a courageous thing?

[Rhonda] He got it published, which is even more impressive.

[Frank] [Inaudible] to the publishing.

[Rhonda] You know? It took a while, but he did. You know, he had to work hard for that, but--.

[Frank] And it did not destroy his career by any stretch.

[Rhonda] Not even close.

[Frank] He went on to write many, many more books, and become an incredibly, well-spoken activist, and lived in France the rest of his life.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I believe. I'm exhausted. What -- go ahead. Do you have any--?

[Rhonda] No.

[Frank] No, no. I'm like -- [inaudible] I'm spent.

[Rhonda] I think I'm spent, too, but if our discussion is coming to a close, I feel like I have to mention the archive.

[Frank] Of course, you do.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] You're a librarian.

[Rhonda] And I'm at the Schomburg Center. So, in order for me to go back to work, and still keep the respect--

[Frank] And hold your head up high.

[Rhonda] -and hold my head up high. So, if you were really inspired by our discussion today, in 2017, the Schomburg Center for Research and Black Culture, acquired the James Baldwin Archive.

[Frank] Really?

[Rhonda] So, it has over 80 boxes of documents, published, unpublished, photographs, letters, business documents. I did go and look at all the drafts of "Giovanni's Room." Now, okay, because there's restrictions, I can't talk about what I saw. However--

[Frank] Wait, wait. What do you mean, restrictions?

[Rhonda] So, a lot of times--

[Frank] Copyright?

[Rhonda] -no. A lot of times when people donate or give or sell archives, they may say, "People can look at this, but they can't maybe take photographs, or they can't write about it, or they can't speak about it, until a certain date, or until certain times."

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] So, I can't, but--.

[Frank] Interesting.

[Rhonda] Exactly. But, it is there. If you are visiting Harlem and you want to come and look at the archive, there is a box entitled "Giovanni's Room," that you can look at. Or you can look at other documents that are there. So, I just wanted to make sure that people knew that that existed at the New York Public Library, and that everyone has access to it.

[Frank] So, where was it before the New York Public Library got this archive? Do you know?

[Rhonda] I want to say it was still with his family or whoever the executor [inaudible]?

[Frank] Because he died 30 years ago.

[Rhonda] Yes. So, I can't say for sure who had it.

[Frank] And the other thing is, when is the date -- what date is it that it will become when these archives can be discussed?

[Rhonda] I believe certain parts have different time periods. Yes.

[Frank] Like Jackie Kennedy's--

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -interviews she gave. She didn't want it to be public until X-amount of years after her death.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I see. Which there are restrictions the family places on those.

[Rhonda] Yes, but they're there.

[Frank] So, even a researcher couldn't write about what they found in some of these things. They could just peruse it for now.

[Rhonda] They could peruse it, and I believe it would require some special permissions.

[Frank] Interesting.

[Rhonda] Right. But you know, one of the things I would say is, for anybody who's an aspiring author, to go and explore a writer's archives is very, very telling and informative, and it shows you the process that they go through, and it's just something that's you know -- very proud that the New York Public Library can provide access to these type of materials.

[Frank] And it's pretty amazing that anybody in the world, can come and do -- see these things.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] The magic of the library.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Thanks, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] Thanks, Frank.

[Frank] So, that was, "Giovanni's Room," by James Baldwin with a little plug for the research and the Schomburg Library.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] No, which you should do of course. It's really interesting. So, we'll be back soon, and we're going to now off -- go off and read widely and variably, and see what we come up with, and then we'll let you guys know what the next book from the Books We Love, 125 List, is going to be. But for now, thanks for listening.

[Rhonda] Thank you.

[Speaker] Thanks for listening to, "The Librarian Is In," a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th Anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans. We are produced by Christine Farrell, and recorded at our Andrew Heiskell Braille and Talking Book Library in Manhattan.