Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In and happy 200th episode to us! For our book club episode this month Frank and Crystal each  choose a book to fit the theme of "Required Reading."  Crystal's pick was more modern and Frank choose a classic, but they were both able to find similarities in themes and reasons why both books should be on a required reading list. 

Blue Period by Tsubasa Yamaguchi; translation by Ajani Oloye; lettering by Lys Blakeslee

Yatora is the perfect high school student, with good grades and lots of friends. It's an effortless performance, and, ultimately...a dull one. But he wanders into the art room one day, and a lone painting captures his eye, awakening him to a kind of beauty he never knew. Compelled and consumed, he dives in headfirst—and he's about to learn how savage and unforgiving art can be. (Publisher summary.)

Great Expectations by Charles Dickens

Great Expectations follows the orphan Pip as he leaves behind a childhood of misery and poverty after an anonymous benefactor offers him a chance at the life of a gentleman. From young Pip's first terrifying encounter with the convict Magwitch in the gloom of a graveyard to the splendidly morbid set pieces in Miss Havisham's mansion to the magnificently realized boat chase down the Thames, the novel is filled with the transcendent excitement that Dickens could so abundantly provide. Written in 1860 at the height of his maturity, it also reveals the novelist's bittersweet understanding of the extent to which our deepest moral dilemmas are born of our own obsessions and illusions. (Publisher summary.)

Were you able to guess the subject of Crystal's ASMR challenge this week?

See you next week!

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] And we have another -- we have a guest. Can you hear it? [ Cricket Chirping ]

[Crystal] I hear it. Have you named them?

[Frank] I'm -- well, I'm asking you. Have I named them? If anyone can hear that, it's a cricket outside. I opened the window because it's warm. And we have crickets outside the library. And I can hear it. It's a great metaphor for the podcast, Crystal.

[Lauhgter] Hi everybody, we're The Librarian Is In, crickets.

[Lauhgter] Oh, it's terrible. We can't possibly be so, we're so popular around the world. Yeah, but if it gets on your nerves, I'll close the window.

[Crystal] No, it's fine. My uncle had a pet cricket.

[Frank] Really?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm. I think you can try and keep them in these, like, little boxes as pets. It's kind of odd.

[Frank] Carry it around with him?

[Crystal] I don't know. It was when I visited, like, years and years ago. And he showed it to me and I was just like, "Oh, okay." And then I did the whole, like, art project around it [laughs].

[Frank] In school?

[Crystal] Yeah, when I went to -- when I did my thesis, I constructed all of these, like, little wooden containers that had these brass crickets in it. And the inside of the containers were, like, printed with, like, kind of, like, furniture or something. And they had the -- I don't know. It was really weird, but I think it was just sort of -- I was going through something and I made a bunch of them.

[Frank] You gave the crickets furniture.

[Crystal] It was silk screens, like, white on wood. And it was supposed to mimic, you know, how, like, if you have a painting on wallpaper and it fades, and then you move the painting. And that still kind of retains its full color. So it's kind of the remnants of furniture and furniture wasn't actually there. Yeah, I don't know.

[Frank] Very art school.

[Crystal] Very art school, which may be related to this topic --

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] -- but it wasn't anymore.

[Frank] Now we have cricket. So hopefully we'll drive anyone nuts. We're still under construction. Jefferson Market. Everybody knows that I guess. And we have no air conditioning and it's still coming in here and doing it sort of like a character in the book I'm going to discuss.

[Crystal] Oh, interesting.

[Frank] Its haunting replays. I can't let go. See I can't let go. I'm tenacious. I can't, I can't, even though we've been closed for so long. So yeah, you were alluded to the books you read which we decided to, independently of the other, read a book that we could -- one could consider required reading for a high school book list or maybe freshman year college or a college book list. Or a book list book that students have to read over the summer in preparation for school. Or have to read during the school year. Something that would make us maybe go back in time to a book we had read and revisited. Wink, wink. Or read something new that we should have seen on list our whole librarian career. And then -- oh yes, and then give each other, because I love the guessing game, give each other a, you know, a paragraph from the books to see first that the -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] I forgot about that part.

[Frank] Crystal.

[Crystal] Oh, I forgot about that part. [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] Okay [laughs].

[Frank] But I have to admit that I --

[Crystal] No, I have it, I have it on my phone. Don't worry. [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank]: -- "I'm going to do --" even though I did this morning hustle to sort of figure one out, but I was sort of late on that game too. But I didn't forget --

[Lauhgter] I have to recover because I'm very disappointed in you.

[Crystal] And we were trying to pick the same book secretly. I tried to really inhabit.

[Frank] Maybe.

[Crystal] I tried to really inhabit you, Frank, and try to find a book. But then I got to the point where I was like honestly I feel like any book could be a school reading book. And I gave up. So I did something that I don't think you've read.

[Frank] I mean, I guess technically any book could. But what I meant when I suggested this, and I hope you followed orders, but you haven't so far, orders that --

[Crystal] You know I don't follow orders.

[Frank] That's not possibly today, that you picked a book that everyone might recognize. And oh, of course, that's some book I should have read or had to read in school. So --

[Crystal] No, I didn't do that.

[Frank] Argh.

[Lauhgter]

[Frank] That's not funny. You're pissing me of.

[Crystal] I did the book that I feel like is a great representation of what school is. And would be great for teen readers to read [laughs] in preparation for going back to school.

[Frank] See that, that -- the reason why I'm most upset is that if that precludes the possibility of me guessing it, because if it was something from the pool of, like, oh, we're all aware this is in the required reading list or the book list, I had a chance.

[Crystal] No, but we did say -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] It's not obscure, it's recent. [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank] -- therefore, it's obscure to me.

[Crystal] I mean, in my even beyond the best books for teens list --

[Frank] All right, I'm leaving. I'm not going to be podcasting. Bye.

[Crystal] -- and previous. No, we did say books that we wish had been on those lists in the past because, you know, I feel like some of the books I grew up reading were to be almost, like, not really diverse. And there's so many more options that we have now that I think is really good. Okay, stop making faces, Frank [laughs].

[Frank] Wow, all right. All right. I can't argue with your arguments. And I maybe sort of remember us discussing books that we could review that might --

[Crystal] Roll back the tape [brief laughter]. Do we not keep a recordings from right before we start? [Brief laughter].

[Frank] Well, but all right, then let me ask you this just for my own personal joy, which you seem hell bent on destroying. What is one of the books that you thought of that, when you were thinking about what Frank might read?

[Crystal] I was thinking of Kate Chopin's The Awakening, only because, only because, not because of the whole, like, what happens to her [brief laughter]. But I think I feel like a lot of books that you read are very thoughtful and introspective, right? And I, you know, I don't think that I'm necessarily that kind of a reader. And I do really admire that about you, Frank [brief laughter].

[Frank] Oh.

[Crystal] And -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank] You made me feel angry, and now you're doing --

[Crystal] Pulling you back in.

[Frank] You know I won. You're like, "You're so fabulous, Frank, and so thoughtful and so beautiful too physically, as well as mentally."

[Crystal] But I think the way that you talk about books --

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] There's so much, like, introspection going on that I really appreciate that. I feel like that's not something I can necessarily do or do well. And for me, I talked about, like, plot, like, they're really standard things like how I [inaudible] of the teenagers and stuff. And so I was thinking about that one as something that where, I wouldn't say necessarily, like, a lot of things happen in it except for like, the one big thing. But there is a lot of kind of internal questioning, you know. And I think when you read that book, there can be a lot of internal questioning as well. And so I was like, maybe that one. But then I was like, there's just too many choices. I don't know where Frank is going with this. And so I chose the book that I enjoyed.

[Frank] All right. Well, you brought me down from the ceiling.

[Lauhgter] Flattery will get you everywhere at the end of the day. Or when you just talk about me in a very thoughtful, loving way.

[Lauhgter] You know, I'm still a little mad. Did you pick a quote? Well, now I don't care.

[Crystal] Well --

[Frank] You know we're going to get it.

[Crystal] I may give you -- I just gave you a clue. I said it was on the best books for teens list. Do you not follow that list, Frank?

[Frank] I don't have it memorized.

[Crystal] Oh, wow, wow, wow.

[Frank] We're never going to get it.

[Crystal] Now I'm insulted [laughs].

[Frank] Oh boy, this is a cantanker -- oh, speaking of insulted --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] This is actually -- this is quite a segue. This is actually my -- why did I say speaking of insulted? This is actually my 200th episode.

[Crystal] Oh, we should have, like, a cake.

[Frank] Well, somebody should have maybe known that it was my 200th episode besides me.

[Crystal] Oh, I -- don't look at me. I'm looking at Christie's blank screen [laughs].

[Frank] Our producer. Yeah, I know you're the third co-host by the way.

[Lauhgter] She is giving a "What? Me? Huh. I don't know." Thanks, everybody. It's like forgetting my birthday because my real birthday is not as important as my podcast birthday, but --

[Crystal] Surely, right.

[Frank] Well, this podcast is not starting well. But we shall persevere and maybe this will be my 200th and final.

[Crystal] No [brief laughter].

[Frank] I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't even have said anything. But I expect a gift in the mail and administration should also duly appraise me for bringing the greater part --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- of the New York Public Library. Oh my God, this is such a terrible --

[Crystal] I think not, that's a lot of episodes I have to say, 200.

[Frank] No. 2015.

[Crystal] How do you feel? Celebratory, regretful?

[Frank] I mean, I hesitate to -- -- Oh, I don't know. One doesn't want to, not in jokingly, toot one's horn, or to say nice things about oneself, except in a self-deprecating, funny way. And I think that's the way to go. But to be honest, it's like if the audience likes me and wants me to stay, that's one thing. I hope so. Let me know if you want me to leave. But it brings me a lot of joy just to look forward to talking about a book that I've read or, you know, about a book you've read. It's like a bright spot in my humdrum week -- I mean, my humdrum week. But I mean, actually, especially through the pandemic and the shutdown with Rhonda, that was an interesting experience having to do. Like Rhonda and I barely met in person. It was a couple of times. And then March 2020, everything shut down. So most of our time together was during that time. And I look back on that -- now I look back very fondly. That was really like a moment of solace and so a moment of love really. And of course, Gwen, you know, Gwen, the bedazzling star of yesteryear, who has moved on to a more local library to her home. And now --

[Crystal] We still hear from her --

[Frank] But now you are our guest [laughter]. I know, yeah, what's your name again? Crystal?

[Lauhgter]

[Crystal] That's not my real name --

[Frank] What did you say?

[Crystal] -- by the way, but anyways.

[Frank] What did you say?

[Crystal] Oh, I was saying Gwen that we still hear from. But I was going to say like, yeah, 200 episodes that does require a lot of discipline. And that's pretty awesome.

[Frank] Actually, that's funny that you say that because, like, we were talking about before this. Like I wish I had more discipline and maybe listeners wish I did too. Maybe I'll obtain this, and maybe one can't change is that at the beginning of the podcast, it was so sort of overwhelming and a little scary and daunting to present for the New York Public Library. I just said it has to be fun. I'm going to be me, I'm going to go on, I'm just going to talk about books. And if they don't want me to do it anymore, that's fine. I just won't do it. I won't take it seriously. I won't take it personally. It's fine. And I never wanted it to not be fun or just an expression of my personality and my reading.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So -- but as time goes on sometimes I feel like I really want to present this book in a coherent -- I always am saying in the podcast. And maybe I make no sense. I don't know what I'm doing. But I always think I'm going to prepare, I'm going to do this, and I can't. It's like doing like a paper for school. Like some people have different habits. I always wrote last minute like the night before. So usually the night before a podcast and, like, well, got to crack to it and write those notes and do a flowchart and make it presentable. And then I just doddle. And in the morning of, I sort of read over some notes I took and I'm just like, "I'm just going wing it." [brief laughter] I don't know. It might be -- now that I said this out loud, it might be a good assignment for myself to just try it once again. I don't -- maybe I just don't want it to seem like "work."

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Working in the library doesn't feel like work to me.

[Crystal] Yeah. And I --

[Frank] I don't think of work.

[Crystal] And I think we're also just approaching this from the POV, like a real, like, reader, you know? And not like somebody who is very experienced, like, book presentation, et cetera. And I think I like that kind of somewhat, like, uncertainty because I think our thoughts are constantly changing about these books. And I think there is something about having to read a book for this podcast on this, like, daily schedule and wanting it to be fresh enough so it's like still on our heads.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] But then having enough time to really, like, prepare for to compare to a book that we've read, like, five years ago or something. And trying to find that balance. It can be really tricky. And I've definitely done things where I read a book specifically for a podcast. But then once I finish it, I'm like, "This book is great, I have nothing to talk about. This book is terrible, I have nothing," you know, like, and then having to sort of re-navigate maybe, like, another book or something make be tough. But I do admire your, like, dedication to this for 200 episodes.

[Frank] Oh, I find, like, it's a pleasure. And guess what? The cricket stopped.

[Crystal] Oh, the cricket is loving this conversation.

[Lauhgter]

[Frank] The cricket stopped. He is all, like, "Frank, we're going to be quiet for you because we love you."

[Lauhgter] [ Singing ]

[Frank] I cannot sing I will always you or even go there.

[Crystal] It's a moment of silence to commemorate the 200 episodes from the cricket. The risk of --

[Frank] They're actually going out and getting me a present which no one else did. So thanks, crickets. So you're -- all right. You've been darling to me. I feel like an arrogant, pompous booby right now. I hope I haven't come off that way. But anyway, so we have books, darling. I -- well I thought --

[Crystal] My quote -- okay, go ahead.

[Frank] I'm not going to bring my grievances up again. I was going to say, I -- well I have my book and I did my assignment correctly, you know. I guess you did. All right, just shut up, get up, let go.

[Crystal] I need it in writing.

[Frank] It's a class --

[Crystal] -- these assignments.

[Frank] You did it organically. You had a thought process. You actually did think of awakening which is brilliant. So I'm fine. What am I? It's so interesting. I just wanted to get the guessing game. It's all about ego, honey. It's just like, right, it's just about me wanting to get the guessing game and now I'm not. If it's a new way book, there is no way. Or may be I will.

[Crystal] While you're on a computer, you can pull up the best book for -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank] It's my notes in a book. So I don't do computers like that. Anyway, let's crack to it, kid.

[Crystal] Hold on. Let me just check and make sure this is actually on our best books for teens list.

[Frank] Ha-ha. [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] I was like, maybe I argued for this book and never made it public library.

[Frank] She talks the talk, but she doesn't know how to walk the walk. Crystal --

[Crystal] Oh, no, you know, it's there. It's there. Here, I'll send you the link.

[Frank] No, I'm not, no.

[Crystal] [inaudible], it was just the 2020 list.

[Frank] In my email?

[Crystal] No, it's in the book finder. No, there's a chat function here.

[Frank] I don't want the link.

[Crystal] Here we go. Okay. So I'm just helping.

[Frank] You're excellent.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] For being a librarian. Do you want to just dive into it, baby?

[Crystal] Okay. Are you going to be really mad if I guess yours and you don't guess mine?

[Frank] No, not anymore. I think I've worked through it. Stop bringing it up.

[Crystal] Okay, good.

[Frank] Oh, you want me to start so we can get mine over with. I always start, you go.

[Crystal] Okay. Do you want hints? I'm going to read you one.

[Frank] Give me the quote. I'll ask you questions --

[Crystal] Oh geez.

[Frank] -- [multiple speakers] Crystal Chen [laughter]. We're having a thorny moment here. All right.

[Crystal] Okay, this is the quote that I have that I picked in the last five minutes. "I guess I'll just have to work until you can't tell the difference between me and a genius."

[Frank] Oh, you just gave me a quote. I've like a [multiple speakers] --

[Crystal] Well, that's what you asked for.

[Frank] Wait. I guess you weren't really around during the guessing game years. All right. [inaudible] All right, say it again.

[Crystal] "I guess I'll just have to work until you can't tell the difference between me and a genius." Now here is a hint.

[Frank] All right. No, let me -- I don't want a hint.

[Crystal] Okay. All right, all right. Okay.

[Frank] It's not worth it.

[Crystal] Okay. Go ahead.

[Frank] When we used to do it with Gwen, the best podcast host, woo-hoo. Okay. See --

[Crystal] No, I accept that, I accept that.

[Frank] She is legend. And darling Rhonda. All right. We used to ask people to read a passage and then we would ask them crazy questions because, of course, we wouldn't get it right away usually. And then we would ask them. And then until it got so blatant. So let me ask you a question.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] This is sort of [inaudible] as the ground rules. I'm not very good at that. Now I forgot the quote. No. So -- oh, who -- see this is the kind of question I've asked. Who is the person talking to? Like say, they're saying I'm not a genius, I guess I'll just have to work harder. Is that the quote?

[Crystal] I feel like any answer that I respond with which kind of going to -- no, no, it's a hint.

[Frank] So I don't mind.

[Crystal] The person is talking to the reader.

[Frank] Oh, interesting. So it's a first person narrative.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Which my book is as well.

[Crystal] Kind of.

[Frank] Maybe this is more entries. You never know who you find intrigue. Is the quote, "I may not be a genius, but I might just have to work harder"? Am I getting that correctly?

[Crystal] "I'll just have to work until you can't tell the difference between me and a genius."

[Frank] Meaning they're trying to prove something to the reader. Or they're trying to say I'm not there yet, but I'm hoping to be, and come on a journey with me. [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] I know, I feel that's a great summation of it, I would say.

[Frank] Is there a -- I'll think it, is there a terrible turning point or a terrible event that this book circles around in some ways? There is a lot of YA books too.

[Crystal] No, not in, like, the traditional YA way. And it is a YA book. That was a hint.

[Frank] I knew that. That's what a teen sounds. [ Multiple Speakers ] I have a feeling it's a male writer.

[Crystal] Actually, I don't think so, but let me double check.

[Frank] What do you mean you don't think so. Didn't you read the book?

[Crystal] No, no. Yes, I did read the book.

[Frank] Don't you remember who wrote it?

[Crystal] The writer versus the protagonist, right?

[Frank] The author of the book.

[Crystal] The author is not male.

[Frank] Oh, and the protagonist?

[Crystal] Yes, is male.

[Frank] So it's a so-called female identifying author writing about a male character as a first-person narrator.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Why are you unsure of this?

[Crystal] I don't know [laughs]. Because you're looking so intensely at me. It's making me nervous, like I'm being interrogated.

[Frank] I guess after 200 episodes, I'm intimidating, especially today, I'm so grand. So there isn't a terrible -- so is it more of a sort of picaresque, lighthearted, romp-ish? Through a kid's life -- is it a young child, is it a teenager or college age?

[Crystal] It's a teen who's approaching college. And I -- it doesn't have, like, a deeply, like, dramatic, horrible events. But I would say the protagonist encounters a series of failures.

[Frank] And do they change by the end in terms of how they were at the beginning?

[Crystal] Yeah, yeah, I would say so.

[Frank] That's my book too. All right. Now I'm curious and -- oh, I'm intimidating you. I was going say why forgot the author. I guess I'm just -- it's my physical beauty that you're really thrown back by. Let's just -- if you say that, then I'll be fine again.

[Lauhgter] I don't know. I mean, I don't know. So tell me, please, madam.

[Crystal] So you were never going to guess it because it's a manga [brief laughter]. It's called -- I know. It's called Blue Period. So the one that made the list was in 2020, was volume one. And so I think last week, recently, I read volume three, which is the most recent one. So this is, like, published by Kodansha. And you know, as a manga, it's released in Japan. It was in 2017. It got translated and they got released in the U.S., like, last year. It's a continuing series. And essentially, the story is about this boy named Yatora Yaguchi, who is this charming, like, high school kid. He has like lots of friends. He's kind of known as a slacker or a delinquent. But the thing that is kind of different about him is that he actually has really good grades and a really high class ranking, to the point where his friends don't even think that he's doing himself. And they think that he's cheating. And his response is like, "Yeah, okay, I'm cheating by having the smartest kid in class tutor me. That's my cheating." Right? But he's a very hard worker. He's very driven to meet these goals and to attend college. And then one day, he enters this room where, like, the art club usually meets and sees this like beautiful painting. And because he sees this beautiful painting, he -- there's just, like, a desire or passion to make art that's awaken inside of him. And he isn't a good artist, right? But he wants to be a good artist. And he wants to go to I think Tokyo University of the Arts, if I have named that correctly, which is where the author attended school. It's a very, like, competitive art school. And so the manga volumes kind of go through his journey to become a good artist, and constantly kind of experiencing failures, seeing these, like, very talented artists around him, and having to put into that work so that he can become better. And I thought this was, like, a really good book for kind of the high school age set, because there's so much in it that talks about maybe the importance of learning, and how, like, you can kind of achieve your dreams. And I liked this book compared to a lot of other YA books, because I've read it several where you have the chosen one, right? Where because of some natural ability within a young person, they are meant for grand things. But I don't think he is somebody who has this, like, natural artistic ability. He has to work really hard for that. And I think that's really wonderful. Let's see.

[Frank] So interesting. Because I read a very similar book, you could say. And --

[Crystal] I could tell by the waving arm.

[Frank] I know I waved -- I was like whoa, meant for grand things. Would you say meant for grand things, but maybe not have the skills to get there?

[Crystal] A little like the chosen one trope in YA novels where they have this kind of natural ability that gets unearthed or wherever. And I don't think in my estimation of Yatora, he is somebody who is really a hard worker and has to --

[Frank] Oh, I love it.

[Crystal] -- fail I think in order to succeed. And I think that's a really important lesson for young kids to have as a difficult lesson, right? That you have to fail to get to the point where you can succeed. And even I think in volume three, he gets to the point where he does, like, it starts to click for him, right? He is challenged to do this. Like I think it's called, like, a F100 painting, which is, like, a very large-scale painting. And he starts to kind of understand how to utilize the things that he's learning to communicate, like, a certain concept. He does and he gets a really great response, right? And then he does another painting after it and then the teacher's response is really lackluster. And when he asked about it, she's like, "Well you're just recycling your previous work, right? You have to keep developing." And so it's like he gets a little bump and then it goes down again. But he never gives up, you know. And I really appreciate that about this title.

[Frank] Well, does he question -- does he ever question himself?

[Crystal] Oh, constantly [brief laughter].

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] I think constantly and also when he is looking at his other classmates and their artwork. And I will say this is the other thing about this -- I think for people who are familiar with, like, manga -- and I'm not that much. Like I think I'm relatively new. There's other colleagues who are very experienced on manga and can teach us like many, many things. My understanding of manga is generally, like, the way it's produced. It's a little bit more simplified so that you can produce the artwork very quickly. And that's why you see things with, like, Naruto with like volume 60 or whatever. And the output is very quick, but within that. And they're generally black and white, except I have seen some that are, like, in color, like Solo Leveling, which came out recently. But within that, there's like a huge range of art styles, right? You have the Witch Hat Atelier and Drifting Dragons, super detailed. Then you have, like -- if you've ever -- I recommend this book for people. It's called, like, Little Miss P, which is about, like, a period basically that shows up in your doorway -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] No, no, no.

[Frank] Oh, period.

[Lauhgter]

[Frank] Oh my God.

[Crystal] Like the -- it's the draw kind of super simplified. And like the opening scene is a woman who opens the door and it's this like, huge Muppet creature at the door that's like, "Hello, I am your period."

[Frank] Oh, okay.

[Crystal] And then throughout the book, she's like, punching the woman in the stomach and stuff. And I'm just like, yes, true, very true. But that's like the two kind of ends in my opinion of sort of the art style. This one is sort of like a more detailed end. And the artist --

[Frank] Which one? Blue Period?

[Crystal] Blue Period. And the artist I think was really smart about having essentially, like, guest artist come in and do the actual paintings --

[Frank] I love it.

[Crystal] -- of the different classmates. So their art styles are really distinctive. And so when they kind of critique it and talk about it, it's very realistic. You know, as somebody who went through art school, there's all these little details. They're very true to life down to, like, how they sharpen their art pencil. Like you use a razor blade. You don't use the pencil sharpener, you use sandpaper to sharpen the points. And use sandpaper to get, like, a charcoal dust to dust it onto the paper. So I really enjoy it. And the other thing I really like about to -- my last thing is that I kept bringing up the idea of discipline. And this book really talks about that, like, he has to be such a disciplined person to push forward and achieve, like, his dream. And I think that's something that I think the way we perceive people who are in the art field and even the humanities field, is this idea of maybe like a slacker, or you don't know what you're doing. But the people that I have met, and who I know are still working in the field, are extraordinarily disciplined in what they do, you know. I think sometimes they work harder than me as a librarian where I can clock out at, like, 5 or whatever. And they're in the studio all day.

[Frank] Yeah, right. Wow, actually, God, you're taking me on a roller coaster because you totally sold me. That's very beguiling. I'm not a fan of series because I want it to be a finite world. But yet, this sounds like a -- it sounds like a real journey. It's a -- would you say it's a bildungsroman?

[Crystal] Like a coming-of-age story.

[Frank] Went through from innocence to experience, I guess it is really.

[Crystal] Yes. Yes. I think it spends less time on, like, maybe some of the more personal aspects although I think there is some stuff about, like, family. And focuses more on career, I guess, career or like, passion. Yeah.

[Frank] Bildungsroman means, like, I've been saying that, right? It means, like, just going from innocence to experience.

[Crystal] Oh, okay.

[Frank] Or more experience, like, education and educational journey

[Crystal] I see.

[Frank] I think.

[Crystal] I think it interpretated as, like, the development of the whole self to including, like, you know, family, personal stuff, like, coming of age.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, well, you really, you wrap that up because it would be cool to have a book like that on a required reading list. I mean how -- I'm sure it must be in some school system somewhere, some teachers doing this putting manga or --

[Crystal] I hope so.

[Frank] -- [multiple speakers] like kids would be like "wow" or just "that's exciting" or "that's new" or "that's interesting." And I love the idea of the art aspects. First of all, I'm fascinated with artists and people who pursue it. And I love the guest artist, like, you said would be the artwork of the students. And it makes me want to see it. Is it like a big format or just like the small paperback manga, like, read through?

[Crystal] The small paperback manga, yeah.

[Frank] It was all anime kind of thing.

[Crystal] Yeah. [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] They have, like, a lot of manga, I feel like maybe they'll have -- this one has, like, maybe a couple of pages at the beginning in color. But the rest of it is in black and white. So you can get kind of a sense of, like, what it looks like in color. Yeah.

[Frank] Okay. So definitely the book I read was -- can be called a bildungsroman, like, definitely the character.

[Crystal] I'm going to Google that right now.

[Frank] First, don't. Stop Googling. Just listen to me. First person narrative. It takes the protagonist from innocence to definitely hard-won experience. So the passage I'm going to read to see if you can guess, maybe you've read this book. Because I did read something that would be family --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] -- reading list. College or high school, late high school college. That has --

[Crystal] Day college.

[Frank] -- less to do with what I just said, something to do with another character in the book. Okay. Okay. So "I was half afraid. However, the only thing to be done being to knock at the door, I knocked, and was told from within to enter. I entered, therefore, and found myself in a pretty large room, well lighted with wax candles. No glimpse of daylight was to be seen in it. It was a dressing-room, as I supposed from the furniture, though much of it was of forms and uses that were quite unknown to me. But prominent in it was a draped table with a gilded looking-glass, and that I made out at first sight to be a fine lady's dressing-table. Whether I should have made out this object so soon, if there had been no fine lady sitting at it, I cannot say. In an armchair, with an elbow resting on the table and her head leaning on that hand, sat the strangest lady I have ever seen, or shall ever see. She was dressed in rich materials - satins, and lace, and silks - all of white. Her shoes were white. And she had a long white veil dependent from her hair, and she had bridal flowers in her hair, but her hair was white. Some bright jewels sparkled on her neck and on her hands, and some other jewels lay sparkling on the table. Dresses, less splendid than the dress she wore, and half-packed trunks, were scattered about. She had not quite finished dressing, for she had but one shoe on - the other was on the table near her hand - her veil was but half arranged, her watch and chain were not put on, and some lace for her bosom lay with those trinkets, and with her handkerchief, and gloves, and some flowers, and a prayer-book, all confusedly heaped about the looking-glass." And then it goes on to say how creepy it is. What does it sound like? What do you think? I know someone listening out there knows that I know it.

[Crystal] I think I know it.

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] But I feel like I should ask more questions about it. Okay. What is -- is it contemporary, 19th century, 20th century? What's the time range?

[Frank] It's 19th century.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] Eighteen hundreds.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] High Victorian.

[Crystal] Oh, I don't know what that means. But okay.

[Frank] Well, Victoria.

[Lauhgter]

[Crystal] Let's see. Is the protagonist male?

[Frank] Yes. As they usually are in those days.

[Crystal] Would this book have come out in the periodical chapter by chapter perchance?

[Frank] Yes. And I didn't even know that until this reading of it that it was first written in instalments in a magazine. So the author wrote it, like, chapter by chapter and it would sometimes change depending on the readers' opinions and viewpoints. So I have a comment about that later, but yeah.

[Crystal] You can't see this, I'm grasping this computer because Blue Period also came out [laughs] I think in a magazine in, like, instalments [laughs].

[Frank] Oh, you're not cheating and Googling something. Are you doing this in your head? I just like that things --

[Crystal] But I think --

[Frank] -- must extemporaneous from your head.

[Crystal] I have read -- I think I've read this book from the guess it.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Oh, okay. I think it's -- okay, I just had a moment of doubt [brief laughter]. I think it's Great Expectations because it sounds like Miss what's her name? [Unison] Havisham.

[Frank] Yes, it's correct. So you did get it and you predicted that you would get it, I wouldn't, I would be mad but I'm not. Yes, [multiple speakers] --

[Crystal] I'll say my initial thought because of the looking glass was Alice in Wonderland because there is a second book Alice and the Looking Glass or something like that. But then when you started to describe the wedding outfit, it was pretty iconic. Yeah.

[Frank] I was going to go on, but I thought it would be too long about how he looks closer and all that she is wearing is actually not so white. It's very yellowed with age. And then the mice are eating the wedding cake. And like, you know -- so I picked that quote because, like, when I first read it, I can't remember shockingly if it was high school or first year of college. I thought it was high school. I thought I was 13, but that seems too young. I think --

[Crystal] I think it's high school for me, yeah.

[Frank] I just can't remember. But I remember loving it. But I remember being very fixated on the Miss Havisham character, who in the book suffers a heartbreak, who's jilted at the altar basically. And stops everything, stops time essentially. Like she never changes out of her wedding dress. Obviously, she was dressing when she found out she was being jilted so she only has one shoe on. And just the imagery of, like, the one shoe on the table, and only wearing one shoe, never changing her veil. And just letting her hair grow around it and, like, the dress degrades. And that the wedding table with the cake and food just left there to rot with mice running through it. Which Pip, the protagonist, sees, is such a great character, so evocative especially is the sort of idea of broken heart, like, she first says to Pip, she touches her left side of her breast and says like, "What am I touching here? What am I holding?" And he goes, "Your heart." And she goes, "Broken."

[Lauhgter] I mean -- her cry is basically just that. It is just, like, she says broken. Guest appearance from our construction guy.

[Lauhgter]

[Crystal] Well, this scene for him to walk in on [laughs].

[Frank] I know, I'm, like, broken.

[Lauhgter]

[Frank] So I just was so beguiled by it. And so I thought I would reread and I thought it'd be a perfect choice in terms of, like, the required reading, or classic required reading and stuff. And it was a really interesting experience. And I definitely, of course, you know, x many years later from a teenager reading it to now, obviously, a different point of view. Like, first of all, I was -- so that basically, if people don't know, it's like -- it is this sort of young boy in modest circumstances. He is a poor kid. And through a series of events, comes into great money. And then has therefore great expectations made of him in terms of becoming a gentleman. It's very much about class. I mean, very much about aspirations. And the various things that come in his way, not least himself and his own emotional makeup to achieve those expectations and become a happy, fulfilled rich person. So what was I going to say? Oh, so I forgot about the -- or I didn't know, I didn't remember the aspect that Dickens, Charles Dickens wrote this, wrote in serial form, like, so that it would change, like, chapter to chapter depending on the reaction of the readers and the feedback he got from publishers and other writers, which figures heavily at the end. Well, how he ended the book, which I found fascinating. But also what I forgot about was all -- because I don't think I cared as much about it when I read it then and I don't remember it, I sort of didn't -- all I know it was a care. But I was sort of, like, "Huh, that's eluding me, that humor." Because each instalment was meant to be an entertaining instalment and keep you wanting to read every day or every week the serial is published. It follows a format, like, each chapter has a sort of comic moments, like, a comic set piece with buffoon characters. And then it advances the plot. So the comic set pieces always sort of sidetracked me. Like I wanted to get back to the drama of Miss Havisham or Pip's love for Estella, who is Miss Havisham's adopted daughter, ward. And some of the other characters. And it sort of takes time out for comedy because basically these serials were, like, the sitcoms of today, or the streaming shows we watch today. People were that intrigued by them. I mean it was the only game in town that you get in your house, or at least read in the library. I read a little bit about it and it said, like, people -- there were many people who go to the library just to read this magazine with the story in it. And even mentioned that the story was surrounded by ads for, like, household products and stuff because they could sell that way. It's just like TV and things are today with ads and stuff, watching videos online, like, getting ads. So it's like the same thing, just written for students so much more dear to me than watching a TV show in some ways. So I mean, we've been going on and on about all -- so well, I've been going on and on about [laughs] my God. I feel like I have to hustle this story. Well, the producer can edit it.

[Lauhgter]

[Crystal] Take your time

[Frank] She'll do what she likes. Because there's so much you can say about the story. I just gave you that background about how it was written which I didn't know. But Pip, Dickens really does write beautifully and there's so much wisdom in what he writes and so much, I think, very humane, what you'd almost want to say modern commentary, which is such an insult to people 200 years ago. Because, of course, they thought like we didn't and realize what human life could be like and to say, like, insights that you find in this book seem modern is sort of irreverent really, because it's sort of like -- of course, they saw the world around them. And authors especially can then describe that feeling. Meaning Pip at the beginning, his name is Philip, but they call him Pip because he couldn't say his name when he was a baby. He is being raised by his very mean sister and her husband, Joe, who is the sweetest guy in the world and very much a figure of goodness in this book. Pip is very -- from the get-go, he gets -- Dickens gets he rides away. He runs -- he is wandering around the marshes near his house. And it's a graveyard and it's dark and gloomy. And he runs into this escaped convict who scares the Jesus out of him. And that encounter sets in motion the plot. And later, when the convict is caught, all the townspeople go and follow along with the police just for excitement -- I mean, just to see, like, what the convicts are about. Like, it's interesting, like, the public is allowed to tag along just to -- on a manhunt for this, like, escaped convict. But there is a moment that I'm just giving an example of Dickens and writing and also foreshadowing that you might have catch the first time you read, is that they find the convict, the convict that Pip ran into at the beginning, who -- the convict had said to Pip, "You're going to get me food, and you're going to get me your file so I can cut the chains off my feet". And Pip does that terrified all the way through. And he does fulfil that bargain. And then goes back home when the convict runs off. And then, as I said, the alarm is brought up that there's an escaped convict and the cops go after him. And Pip and his "dad," Joe, follow along. And so they encounter the caught convict and Pip is desperate, as a seven year old, to sort of indicate to the convict, like, "I didn't turn you in," like, "I didn't give you up," like, "I'm just along for the ride with my, you know, father figure here." Because Joe is his sister's -- his uncle I guess, but he's like a dad. So he tries to get that across. And so there's a moment where Dickens writes during that encounter, Pip has been riding on Joe, his dad's back. "I had alighted from Joe's back on the brink of the ditch when we came up and had not moved since. I looked at him eagerly, meaning the convict, when he looked at me, and slightly moved my hands and shook my head. I had been waiting for him to see me that I might try to assure him of my innocence. It was not at all expressed to me that he even comprehended my intention, for he gave me a look that I did not understand, and it all passed in a moment. But if he had looked at me for an hour or for a day, I could not have remembered his face ever afterwards, as having been more attentive." And I love that -- I didn't understand what his look was. Pip didn't understand the convict's look, which when you look back, because as everyone knows who's read the book, that convict is basically the guy who then becomes wealthy and gives Pip all the money - spoiler alert - that sets Pip on his journey to be a gentleman. And Pip thinks it's Miss Havisham who has given him all the money. And wants to believe it's Miss Havisham because Miss Havisham's ward, Estella is beautiful and Pip's age and Pip's madly in love with her. So when you look back, you realize in that moment, the convict is looking at Pip like a savior. He's saying, "This boy gave me food and a file to cut the chains off. And he didn't turn me in." That Pip didn't understand that he didn't know if he did understand. And I love that sort of exchange that can change a life. And that's when the convict, Magwitch, his name, decides to help Pip become a gentleman for his kindness. And also for some selfish reasons, he also likes the idea of creating a gentleman, but that's another story. I'll focus on the nice part because everything's complicated in life. You don't get it one way or another. But that I love that. And Dickens even writes about it later where he says, I mean, beautiful quotes not to think about. He exhorts the reader and all of us to sort of look at our day in our life and see if that day went differently, how differently our life might have turned out. Not in terms of cataclysmic events, but like even small choices made or small moments made. I mean, that moment that I just discovered when I reread my notes, the look between the caught convict and Pip was the moment now you realize Dickens gave to us where Magwitch was like, "I'm going to give this kid money. I'm going to make it happen for him. And if I can ever make it happen for myself, if I get out of this." And he's determined to do it. I didn't intend to talk so long about that moment because there's so much in it. Anyway, I just love that when you look at the writing, when you look back at the writing and how much is there for you. So I mean, there is so much here in terms of human nature. I mean, you know, it's from Pip's first-person point of view. And I didn't remember this either when I first read that Pip is very -- he is not like the greatest kid in a lot of ways. He's very self-deprecating and he's very funny because he's also writing to us. He's telling the story from his older vantage point. And he's being a little bit more self-deprecating and kind to himself. But he's also honest about the fact that when he does go to Miss Havisham through a series of events, he realizes his poor state and he realizes how common, as they say, he is and how he doesn't want to be that. And he, like I said before, he rejects -- he starts rejecting emotionally even though he's conflicted and conscious of it, his dad, Joe, the simple good-hearted, blacksmith, and he feels guilty about it. But he just has to let go of Joe because he's common and he wants more. And when you read it in older age, it's sort of, like, you realize, like, all the stuff were beguiled by, and all the human impulses of survival and getting resources and becoming something is so important to us that we almost, like, we say, we look back poignantly because our perspective is changed. And we also -- our values maybe more in line, how we even reject our own parents sometimes at times. And maybe you look back and think, oh, how cruel I was to my mother when she was saying this to me when I just wanted to be cool. You know, I want to be part of the in-crowd, or I wanted to try for something and my mom was being whatever to us. And we rejected that. And that it hurts us later. It's like the same thing that happens here. I mean, Pip goes through a very real ordeal of getting this money, having great expectations, losing a lot of the money and being tempered by life and realizing it was just, like, about you know, the kindness of that man who raised me and another friend of his, Herbert Pocket, who is a very enthusiastic, cheerful guy, you know, middle-of-the-road talented that Pip feels superior to because he's just a goofball. Like he's just, you know, a puppy. That's also just a nice guy. So he's his friend. And that's the thing. He can be his friend and respond to those qualities in Herbert, but yet still feels superior and feel one up in his own head on, like, I'm better than you because I'm serious. And I'm in my own head, and I can think. He's just like a happy-go-lucky kid. And then, of course, by the end of the book, when he's more mature and goes through some reversals, he realized Herbert was a good guy, who always was there for Pip. And he realizes I was an idiot for thinking he was less than me. And that's also, like, something we can identify with. I mean, there's so much here. And when I said about the ending and how Dickens went about it is that Dickens ended it, I thought, right up my alley. He encounters Estella. Estella is the beautiful girl in Miss Havisham's house that he falls in love with who is, side note, raised by Miss Havisham because of her own jilting to despise and break the hearts of men. That's a whole other story [multiple speakers] about what that abuse really would look like. And also can one really do that? Can you manipulate someone's brain to become what you want them to become? But it's an interesting concept. So Estella is very cold, very dismissive. But Pip, again, like I've been talking about the theme of this, falls in love with her regardless. And even realizes I'm falling in love with this girl against every feeling I have against my possible happiness, rationality, which says a lot about human nature is that he wants that beauty. He wants what that beauty means. He wants that class. And it made me think that maybe as human beings we're automatically organized ourselves in hierarchies. Maybe it's just human impulse rather than this we say society because human beings are society we created. It seems like we always organize ourselves in a way that, like, we either aspire up or want to push down. I don't know. So at the end of it, he basically encounters Estella, who has had reversals of her own. She marries this very rich guy who just abuses her. And she meets Pip in Piccadilly. And, you know, they both realize they've come through it, and they realize they were wrong about a lot of their aspirations. And Estella especially has suffered and realized, you know, she was not a nice person. She was victimized by Miss Havisham but just she's sadder and wiser as he is, but they part. And colleagues of Dickens were like, "You can't. The public wants them to get together. They have to end in a clinch. They've learned, they've become wiser, they've suffered. They have to come together." But Dickens still -- so the official ending was not the one I just told you. The official ending is, which I love, sort of a meet in the ruins of Miss Havisham's house which, there's a big fire at Miss Havisham - spoiler - it's killing it. So they meet there. And it basically indicates even though Estella is sort of like, "Oh, I hope we can be friends," and she's genuine. Pip's like, "Yes." He basically says like, "There's no need for us ever not to be." And stay with sort of, like, oh, there's a door for them to be together but also it could also just be a coming to terms of minds that yes, we both been through it. We both learned, but it might be just like in life, not possible for us to -- so he leaves it ambiguous. But a little more positive than the other ending. Which I'm glad that Dickens sort of wanted to show that great expectations, that our expectations can turn out not the way we think they are, that we might learn the things of course that we didn't expect we would learn. Like he's thought he would be a gentleman and happy, but what is that? Like what is being a gentleman and happy? It's like what is being happy? It's a whole lot of conversations. He goes through life and life knocks him like life does. And he's learned the value of certain things like the love of his family and other things. And his idiocy and his own personal culpability in his life where he was not a nice guy and should have been better. But he's learned those things and that's the most valuable thing he's learned. And that means the most to him more than anything else. So his ending up with Estella is beside the point to me. It's, like, not about unbelievably for me, it's not about that romantic fulfilment, or that ending in a church and are happy ever after. It's about personal, intellectual, emotional growth of this kid. And Estella as well -- and yeah, but I do love a poignant ending where it's like may be we are not meant to love kind of thing. So anyway.

[Crystal] So you said that was the official ending is, did the book and the, like, the serialized instalments have different endings? [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank] I believe the story is he wrote his ending, which basically because they're not getting together and --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] One, a famous author, I can't remember who it was, read it, and told Dickens, "You have to change it."

[Crystal] Got it. Okay.

[Frank] "You can't leave the public after all this with them not getting together." So Dickens rewrote it that indicated that they would be together. I can read it to you, but I'll just tell you. They will be together, but you don't really know are they going to be together just like as souls who've learned something through life or as romantic partners. It's a little bit vague, which is Dickens' way of saying I don't really want to just end it in a church with them being like, yay, we're happy. Because he did keep the line in where he tells someone that he's over Estella and he means it. Like he's, like, it's done, that it's past. But I guess, I'm contradicting myself, because when we all say, "Oh, I'm over it," sometimes that means we're really not fully over it, but some way over it. I mean, he's not the same kid as he was when he first fell in love with her. It is tempered with experience. And he doesn't look at her the same way. But yet they have that history, that history together, which means something. So they've both definitely learned, but whether they end up together is up to the reader really. So Dickens doesn't give that to you, which I like, but he did take the advice of his colleague, like, I have to make it a little more hopeful so the audience can at least read into it. He says something like at the end that there was no shadow of parting over them anymore. Like meaning there was no danger that they would ever be apart. But yet you could sort of analyze that multiple ways like soulmates, or they are just -- like how you understand someone, but you don't see them in a daily way, like, you've sort of come to terms with somebody yet there is no day to day life for you to. So Great Expectations, darling [brief laughter].

[Crystal] I have a lot of thoughts. One, the whole like serialized instalment thing and what you were saying earlier, like, you know, I do think it's interesting because I do feel like a lot of young people are actually still reading in that kind of fashion through like Wattpad, through Webtoons where things get released in, like, weekly, sometimes monthly instalments. And so that kind of form of reading is very alive and well, which I think is kind of fascinating to like tie that in. And I think that could be a great entry way for teachers to talk about these works to re and compare it to what's happening now. You know, the Miss Haversham -- is there a R in there?

[Frank] Havisham. No, no R.

[Crystal] No R, Havisham.

[Frank] Havisham.

[Crystal] I do think it's, you know, continually interesting the depiction of these, like, women kind of like in attics who have gone mad, that how we see in in these works and wondering how those stories be told from, like, a woman's point of view, like we saw with like Jane Eyre and like Wide Sargasso Sea, if I've pronounced that correctly to.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] And how it's, like, so very different and how those kind of, like, play together. The other thing that I thought was -- I mean, definitely both our books are about, like, ambition, right, to. But this idea to, in Great Expectations that rejection of, like, personal history in order to, I guess, for him to, like, move up, you know, whatever that means. And also kind of having to lose all these aspects in very kind of, like, a non sequitur. But I've also started reading this book called Native Country of the Heart, I think is the name of it, which is this memoir by Cherrie Moraga. And again, apologies if I've mispronouncing the name, but I haven't gotten very far in it. But so much of that book is, like, seemingly contextualized in her own identity as a person through her mother's story. And it just made me think about that in comparison of this book where it seems like you have to really reject the thing that's made you who you are. Like he's Pip, right, because of his family and how his family has raised him, so that he can get the gains of seemingly, like, money status, this woman, et cetera. And having to reconcile that.

[Frank] It's so interesting to me, because that's -- I always try to think of what's elemental. And that word is used in this book a lot. Like, maybe it's part and parcel of being human to some degree. Of course, we have these developed personalities that coincide with our animal impulses, because we are animals, of course. That is bound to reject what came before to become your own person. And then maybe the journey of humans is to learn that because I can remember vaguely when I was younger, that sort of terror of not becoming. And if I didn't become what I wanted to become or didn't get what I wanted to get, it was terrifying. And I forget that terror because as an older person, I don't feel that scared anymore and more or less done or set in some ways. And that's a scary thing, like, to gain -- like, you know, I mean, you reduce it to the cliches, but the cliches have truth. Like, you know, Pip wants money, and he wants class, he wants power. I mean -- and Estella wants the same thing. She wants to marry, she wants to get resources. Like he's attracted to her beauty, she is attracted to men with money. It's like the classic, like, resources and beauty and, like, what men and women's impulses are. But like this sort of, like, basic thing, but yet we have these evolved psych brains that can sort of think, almost a lot of times to our detriment. Because what you're saying exactly is like why have we sort of convoluted our own lives?

[Crystal] I also wonder if there is a kind of age factor in this where I think with young people, like, you are trying to break free of maybe your family to become your own person. And that's why I think so much of why literature is about that becoming your own person, searching out your own identity. But I think as you get older, maybe there's this idea, like, wanting to go home, like finding that connection. As you age, as your parents age, as your family ages, and maybe, you know, for him, it's like, just age is a big factor in terms of him coming to grips with [multiple speakers] --

[Frank] And that thing of expectations, like, you're, like, "Oh, if I only just get this, I'm going to be happy." Like you're 18 years old going to college, like, "When I get my degree, I'm going to make a lot of money. I'm going to find the best partner, like, yeah, and then I'll be happy." And then you get married and it's like, "Well, we'll have kids and then we'll be happy." Or "I'll get the next promotions, like, then I'll be happy." It's like, you always expect. And then when you go through it, you realize happiness was like, yes, of course, money is all that's important. But like, you look back and you have a different perspective like, "Oh, if I could have just enjoyed the moment." I mean, that's made a lot in Great Expectations too about the moments we anticipate or expect to be great moments. Like when Pip really believes Miss Havisham is his benefactor and that he's born to marry Estella and inherit Miss Havisham's money, he's so filled with joy. But at the same time, and this is so human, he's filled with doubt. He's not good enough, he's common, will he pull it off? Is it true? And I always -- when I read that I thought how human is that, like, in the moments we anticipate to be our happiest moments, we're always surprised that there's other feelings there too. Like you know, you look forward to your wedding day. And you're getting married and you're happy. But then you're also worried or tired or refused or you know, you have a pimple on your face and you're like, "It's ruining my day." You know, the things you don't anticipate [multiple speakers] --

[Crystal] Yes. And also the question of, like, what comes after, right, because it seems like those are --

[Frank] Are you really a doctor?

[Crystal] Yeah, I was like, oh, I want to be a doctor. But then you become a doctor. Then what's next? Right? Because you don't really necessarily think about past that point and how, like, life continues on. Yeah.

[Frank] Exactly. I mean, now I just find pleasure in the fluttering of leaves outside my window.

[Lauhgter] I don't want to be the superstar of the Western world anymore -- [ Multiple Speakers ] -- take care of that.

[Lauhgter] I mean, yeah, I love it in a way that you said that our books were similar, and they are because they -- I have to apologize for my frosty -- [ Multiple Speakers, Laughter ]

[Crystal] -- our frosty was so heated.

[Frank] Probably it's true. I'm just pulling backward, then I'm like, whoo-hoo. But you did pick a good book that actually should be on list considering what it's about. And they are similar in terms of these required reading books like Catcher in the Rye. I mean, a lot of these books are about becoming people, like kids becoming the people they want to be, or how they're thwarted in that, and I love it.

[Crystal] I think we were pretty simpatico.

[Frank] No, you're not --

[Crystal] -- even to the point that we're both wearing light blue shirts. Have you noticed? [ Singing ]

[Frank] Do you know that song?

[Crystal] Only through you.

[Frank] It's Peaches & Herb from the '70s. Yes, we are wearing blue shirts, Blue Period. No Blue -- what is it again?

[Crystal] Yes, Blue Period. Yes. It's different kinds of period than Little Miss P.

[Frank] Great blue expectations. Let's just put it in there. Blue's Clues. That guy is back.

[Crystal] Oh, he's back.

[Frank] It's all blue. Am I blue? I just thought. We'll keep the singing to a minimum. We have -- I mean this is going to be an editing masterpiece. Oh, oh, sorry. Oh, she almost forgot the ASMR, people. We almost got away scot-free, but not this time.

[Crystal] Can you hear it? Can you hear it? Can you hear it though?

[Frank] Let me think. Either you're whittling something, or you are peeling an orange. Now you're trying to get out of a tiny little box. Now you're brushing your hair really too hard.

[Lauhgter]

[Crystal] I wish I had a cricket here to help me [laughs].

[Frank] The cricket has quietened down?

[Crystal] The cricket is gone.

[Frank] I guess they are at lunch. I don't know. It sounds a little bit like whittling. Like you're taking an object -- well, taking one object and --

[Crystal] Do you think --

[Frank] -- rubbing it against another which is -- [ Multiple Speakers, Laughter ]

[Crystal] Technically correct.

[Frank] What is it?

[Crystal] I like that you think I have whittling tools here.

[Frank] Crystal Chen is a whittler. Oh, it's almost like an orange.

[Crystal] It's -- what are those? They're stress balls.

[Frank] Like a nerve [phonetic] ball.

[Crystal] Yeah, I think I rolled out one of -- out of one of our take-home book kits. I don't know which kit it belongs in so -- I just have it.

[Frank] Well, what were you doing with it that made that noise.

[Crystal] I was like scratching it --

[Frank] Oh, your nails?

[Crystal] -- like this. And it was -- did you hear it when I was squeezing it?

[Frank] I did, actually like the little pfft of air. I -- [ Multiple Speakers ] -- it morphed it. You morphed it into scratching, the nail. At first I heard that. Then I thought it was like -- just I don't know the on ramp to the ultimate noise you made. All right. She's squeezing in her face ball. Thanks, Crystal.

[Crystal] You're welcome.

[Frank] Thanks for the ASMR delights. We should probably maybe set up parameters about -- here I am with the rules again. I'm so not rule-oriented, I think, about how you make noise is like --

[Crystal] What do you mean? I use my nails.

[Frank] Well that's what I mean. Like if it -- all right then, if I always know it's your nails, then I'll know it's -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Crystal] You have to, like, let the objects make the full spectrum of noises.

[Frank] Fine. Am I getting very busy cleaning up my area here because I'm done. Okay. Thanks everybody for this endurance test. And that's actually the point that was made about Great Expectations was that Dickens at one point says, "After all is said and done, all one can do is just endure and how you do that." So basically, every listener out there who's still with us, you just did that. You endured. You endured through the grief, the good times, the tears, the laughter. Because we basically brought all those emotions. Or at least I felt every one of those emotions since the beginning of this podcast about 16 years ago. Anyway --

[Crystal] Don't forget the anger.

[Frank] Yeah. It's simmering. I'm going to just trash my office up.

[Lauhgter]

[Frank] Anyway, so next time, we'll read what we please and discuss it with each other. And thank you everybody for listening truly. And have a great --

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We're produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.