Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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We mentioned you'd be getting three weeks in a row of Rhonda and Frank and here we are again for week two. Join us as Frank and Rhonda chat with fellow NYPL librarian Ellen MacInnis to discuss the TRANSform NYPL project and share some books recommendations from the Library's mega book list (200+ books!) highlighting trans, nonbinary and gender nonconforming voices.

Ellen suggested a LOT of reading (yay!).  We've highlighted a few titles below, but be sure to listen to the podcast to hear the rest of the recommendations, and also check out the list for some extended reading suggestions.

 

For Middle Middle readers: George by Alex Gino

 

For Young Readers:When Aidan Became A Brother by Kyle Lukoff

Ancillary Justice by Anne Leckie, and the subsequent books in the series.

As well as a few romance books such as...

Unmasked by the Marquess by Cat Sebastian

Lastly, Ellen mentioned some books that really had an impact on her growing up, including Diane Duane's Wizard series and the works of Ray Bradbury.
 

Don't forget to join us next week to discuss Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates.

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Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In. I am Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] And, as we mentioned in the last episode, we talked with children's librarian, Ellen MacInnis, about the New York Public Library's TRANSforming the Literary Landscape. A reading list of trans and gender non-conforming related books for all ages. And we'd like to really talk about it with them. So, Ellen, are you there?

[Ellen] I am. Thanks so much for having me today.

[Frank] Absolutely. So tell us where you work and what you're doing and what this project is all about.

[Ellen] Absolutely. So I'm Ellen MacInnis. I'm a children's librarian at the Bronx Library Center. And I use they and them pronouns. And, this project really started at -- a few years ago for the innovation project, which is an internal staff award of submitting ideas and things that you'd like to see change in the library, staff vote on it. And my project was one of the ones that was picked. So, TRANSform NYPL was really my idea to raise staff competency and being able to provide great service for the trans and gender non-conforming communities. It was really keyed into the Stonewall 50 celebration last year, which was the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising. And, we were really lucky to have a great core team of people come together and help us provide a truly humongous book list, which is what I'd like to focus on. Last year, our list was 157 titles, and it's growing, I'm very excited. Plus, things like staff training and the programming guide, which are also important. But, I'd like to talk about books if that's OK.

[Rhonda] Oh, we would love to hear about that. Ellen, if you could tell us about kind of how you and your colleagues work to develop this list. And maybe talk to us about some of the standout books that you feel are really important on this list, we'd love to hear that.

[Ellen] Absolutely. One of the great things that I've noticed since becoming a librarian in 2016, which is when -- I've been up here for about four years now, is that even in just those four years, there's been a blossoming of LGBT information and resources but especially focused on trans and gender issues. And I'm a children's librarian. So a lot of my focus is going to be on things from like picture books to YA, which has just seen an absolute flowering, like I cannot -- I think it described how much better situated we are in 2020 than when I started in 2016. There are a lot of really great examples of what we call OwnVoices, which is trans folks writing about trans experiences. And so, for example, one of the first books that I think of when I'm thinking about a good middle grade, so for like a middle school audience, is the book, "George" by Alex Gino, which is about a middle schooler who figures out that she is a trans girl. And it's sort of like navigating this experience and trying to figure out, how do I do school, which is already dramatic enough on top of this. I read that, oh, a few years ago before I joined NYPL and for a while, it was -- that was one of maybe five books I could think of about the subject. And since then, we've seen a lot more published for kids, and also for adults, which I'll get to in a little bit. Another children's book I really wanted to point out is a picture book that came out more recently. It just made the list last year because it was that new. It's a picture book called, "When Aidan Became a Brother" by Kyle Lukoff who is also a trans person. And I love this book because it is about a young trans boy who is going to be a big brother. And the central plot of the picture book, if picture books have plots, is getting a new sibling. It's not a story that's necessarily hammering you over the head about what it is to be trans. It is simply a trans character having the same normal experiences that any other character would have. And I love that and the art is fabulous for that. And probably the last children's book, and then I'll get on to grown-up stuff, this is by Rick Riordan, who is not trans but he -- "Percy Jackson", you know, that guy.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah, of course.

[Ellen] Super famous. His book, "Magnus Chase" and "The Hammer of Thor", which is the second Norse book, but you don't need to read the "Percy Jackson" books to read this. His second book won a Stonewall award, because the main character's love interest is in fact a trans person. And completely took me by surprise, like I'm just screening these books because I've been reading them since I was in middle school. And it was in the best way like having sort of like someone cuff you upside the head and go, by the way, I see you.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Ellen] You know, it was such a delight. And I'm just -- I'm happy that you're seeing bigger name authors take on this subject, because for a while, it was kind of, you know, locked away, like, you know, oh, we'll put that in the YA section, even if they're middle school character. So we'll put those with the adults because these are adult things. Yeah. They're not. They're things for everybody, I think.

[Rhonda] So, Ellen, you said you were going to tell us about some new adult books that have come out or ones that you recommend.

[Ellen] Yes, absolutely. There is so much. So I wanted to focus on some new-ish sci-fi books, that's my genre of choice when I'm not reading children's materials for my job. They're -- I think science fiction has always been a really fun genre. You know, if you ever go back to the old "Star Trek" back in the day, you have them looking at societal issues in a really progressive way. So, sci-fi is just kind of naturally -- sci-fi and fantasy are naturally genres where you'll find, you know, questions about gender and you'll find really interesting political what you call it. So, the first series I'd like to focus on, it's by a trans author named Yoon Ha Lee. I'd also like to focus on it because we did just have Asian and Pacific Islander month. So I wanted to highlight a few of those authors as well. So Yoon Ha Lee has written a adult series called, "Machineries of Empire". The first book is "Ninefox Gambit", which I believe we have as eBook available. If anyone wants to go grab it before everyone else checks it out. And the great thing about this series is that gender is just sort of a afterthought in the future, like there are certainly issues. Like some of the trans characters certainly have to deal with some of the problems that we face today. But the second book in the series, for example, has a trans main character who later gets a trans love interest, spoiler alert, whoops. And that's really great because it's written, I feel, very authentically and engagingly. And in a way where the character's identity is certainly important, but the story is not about him being trans. It's about these greater, you know, fights of like power and politics and, you know, there's war going on. And so it's always nice to find a character who's just happens to be trans.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Ellen] You know. And also Yoon Ha Lee has written a children's book. And it's really important because these two audiences should never meet. I had a lot of kids who were like, oh, has Yoon Ha Lee [inaudible] anything else? Not yet. That's all you get right now, called "Dragon Pearl", which is -- was under Rick Riordan's imprint of different tales of mythology from around the world, which also has some trans characters. So Yoon Ha Lee was an author, I wanted to highlight. I love his books. And the audiobooks, if you can get them, are narrated by this amazing person called Emily Woo Zeller. And they're -- I've honestly been listening to them like twice since this whole quarantine started. All right, enough about my favorite series. Another series which I have not read, but I've had recommended to me is called the "Tensorate Series" by JY Yang, who is also a trans person. And this sci-fi series is what's known as silkpunk. So, the way you've got like steampunk works set in the Victorian era. And you've got cyberpunk, which is like "The Matrix". Silkpunk is a sci-fi or fantasy sub-genre that is looking at the silk roach. And that time period, especially in China and other parts of the Far East, which tend to, I think, get kind of left out of a lot of conversations, we'll say. But I've had that particular series, which I believe starts with "The Black Tides of Heaven" recommended to me is like this is blowing us out of the water. This is great. It's on my to-read list, I can do it. And then probably the last series I want to talk about. Now, this author is not, as far as I know themselves, trans. But it's, I think, a great example of how you're seeing all authors engage with us really in a -- I think a meaningful and deep way is the "Ancillary Justice" series or -- which is the first book "Ancillary Justice" by Ann Leckie, which I believe won a Hugo and Nebula [inaudible] --

[Rhonda] Oh, wow.

[Ellen] Yeah, it definitely like, go read this book. Now, this book is I'm going to say more of a hard sci-fi than the other books. So -- Not that the other books aren't hard sci-fi. But the great thing about the "Ancillary" books is that they're setting a society where everyone is called she and her.

[Rhonda] Oh, wow.

[Ellen] And it's not they're -- Right, it's not they aren't, like they're humans, they come in all the varieties and bodies that you would expect humans do. But there's not really a concept of gender. And the pronoun that Ann Leckie uses for everyone is she and her. And it's really interesting because you've got this society interacting with other, you know, alien folks and other human countries and stuff in space, who do have what we would consider like our maybe American concept of gender. And there's -- The main character is constantly trying to figure out pronouns and how do you tell and, you know, like what's important and it's -- I thought it was really funny probably in a way that I don't think the author intended, but I thought it was just a really nice commentary on that. And then I think that also brings up the question of when you're doing sci-fi and gender, if you're imagining these different societies and worlds that have a different starting point, you know, what does it mean to be trans? Or what does it mean to have a gender? You know, because other -- everyone's got a gender, we've all got something somewhere. What does it mean if your society is built on different rules? And that's a theme that Ann Leckie explores, I think, really well. She's got a spin-off book from that series called "Provenance", which is set in -- different humans running around in space. And their gender setup, which I thought was great, is that all children, until they reach the age of majority, are called they, them, right? Their society of that gender is something you get when you're an adult, or that you decide on. And when you're an adult, you have men, you have women, and you have a third gender, which is just normalized. One of the characters is one of these third gender people. And it's not a big deal, it's just one of the options that are available to you.

[Frank] Right.

[Ellen] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And it seems like sci-fi would be such a great way to introduce these themes because you can really just reset the rules. You can be really creative with world building and be able to bring in these different concepts. So I think that is really great that you told us about all of these different science fiction series that people can kind of jump into.

[Ellen] Absolutely. I mean, sci-fi is just -- that's probably another podcast but it's, I think, a really fun genre because you get everything from like really poppy quick reads that read like a "Star Trek" episode. And then you'll get -- You know, if you want your big 20 book space opera, my goodness, there are those two. So that's my favorite. Do we have time to go into some other genres?

[Frank] Yeah, I'd like -- I actually like to hear if we can what -- let's do it, another genre or genres because this sort of transcends a lot of genre.

[Ellen] It does.

[Frank] It's stupid, and like a vaudevillian --

[Ellen] No, I love it. That's -- Honestly, half of my activism is making trans patents.

[Rhonda] I know. [Inaudible] Yeah. Oh boy.

[Frank] Anyway, [inaudible] these.

[Ellen] OK. So I am -- I'm married to someone who is also a trans librarian. We met at ALA, which is probably not something you need to put in the podcast but I like to bring that up.

[Rhonda] I think that's a cute story of meeting at a library conference.

[Ellen] It was -- Love it. You know, what happens in Vegas follows you to New York, so.

[Rhonda] It was in Vegas?

[Ellen] It was in Vegas, Rhonda. And I have borrowed -- definitely borrowed one of their talks that they gave at -- oh, it was either that or Chicago, I forget. Time has no meaning anymore. And their talk was a quick little like five-minute book buzz called "Not Another Sad Gay Love Story". Because my spouse loves romance, like we're talking devours like 12 books -- probably not 12 books a week, but it seems like that from my perspective. And one of the unfortunately common tropes, especially in earlier works about the LGBT community in general, but especially trans people, is what we call the tragic romance, where one of the character dies. And certainly, like I think there's place for all sorts of stories. But when the same story over and over, you're like, I've seen this movie before, let's try something different. And so, their talk, which really actually inspired me to get started on this project, was looking at different romance stories that had a different way of exploring and forming relationships, especially since romance is a genre which is something I'm new to. One of the conventions of romance is that you need to have a happy ending, or at least like a happy for now ending.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Ellen] So it's been really great to dig into the equivalent of, you know, books that I honestly dismissed because I dismissed romance and I was wrong. And I apologize, because I've been listening to that and sci-fi since I got started. But let me point out two titles that we've got on our list. One is called "Unmasked by the Marquess" by Cat Sebastian, which is historical romance --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Ellen] -- for those of you who like the Victorian era. I have not read this, but I have read other Cat Sebastian books and she is like chef's kiss, like love her. And that's about a non-binary person, which I can explain in a second, who has to present he's male in Victorian society because that's what you had to do to get things done and falls in love with a marquess who's a fancy, you know, titled person in England, I don't know. And then just non-binary is a word that we use to refer to a gender that's not male or female, you know, it's just -- it's outside of that, you know, one or the other option. So we have "Unmasked by the Marquess" by Cat Sebastian. And the next book, which I have listened to and I love, it's called "An Unsuitable Heir" by K.J. Charles. Oh my gosh, I love it. Now, this is the third book in a series and it's like the whole series follows a murder mystery, so I guess you should read the other books. But the best book is the last. And that's because one of the love interests, Pen, is I guess what we would call today non-binary or genderqueer. This is also a historical romance because that's most of what I read. OK. And he goes by he, him but there's a lot of questions about gender and how he wants to present. And he's -- Yeah, spoiler alert, sorry everybody, although this is a romance book from like five or six years ago, so I think that's OK. He gets tapped as the surprise heir to a dukedom, earldom. He inherits some stuff. And he suddenly gets called back to his, you know, long lost family who are all very severe and uptight and, you know, we are very proper. And here comes Pen, who is dressed in -- you know, comes in with makeup and is an acrobat because that's what he does to feed himself because he was not with his rich family. And it's this really interesting like, what does all that mean? I really love that book because it -- I thought was a very sympathetic look at trying to figure out gender without the use of Tumblr or Google or any of the things that -- you know, when I was figuring things out, I could just go online and type in, you know, what does this mean?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Ellen] And, you know, a lot of people today still can, but especially in the past when we don't have these terms or these years of specific activism, like how do you figure out how to be yourself? Which is I think the core of, you know, a lot of these stories. And finally, just the reason I like romance stories and the reason why I've converted to the genre is that you do get to see happy endings. You get to see people who are fulfilled, who have, you know, the same trials and tribulations as everyone else. And it just becomes, I think, really helpful because while I definitely think there's room for a need for books that are, you know, serious and talk about issues and talk about things like, you know, grief and all that other stuff, it's also really nice just to see a happy ending story, because if you can see it, that's something that can happen in your own life too.

[Frank] Yeah

[Ellen] Yeah.

[Frank] I'm like that -- Yeah, beautifully put, it's so true. That's wonderful actually. I love it. I love how you said before the fancy titled person.

[Ellen] So sorry.

[Frank] [Inaudible] like have someone brought me the series of romance like trans romance books called fun with a fancy titled person.

[Rhonda] I'd love to read that.

[Frank] Because it sort of begs like, you know, the labels, the sort of names we have for things that sort of actually puts that under a microscope too. Can I totally throw you a curveball, Ellen, before we [inaudible].

[Ellen] I love curveballs. I did softball in the fourth grade. So yes, you may.

[Frank] All right. I'm just -- With the sophistication and the level of knowledge you have about these books is, to me, very impressive. I'd love to know a book that you've read over your life, either as a younger person or not, that off the top of your head made a huge impact on you for whatever reason. I just want to dig into you for a second.

[Ellen] Does it need to specifically be about gender or just like a book in general?

[Frank] No, just a book in general or as you as a human being in your journey through life.

[Ellen] Oh, that's true. I think more broadly. I've been escaping to the library since I was like in grade school. And I would run to the school library before and after class. And then when I was old enough, I would volunteer at my local public library. And for me, getting my hands on any kind of fiction but especially that sci-fi genre really helped open a lot of ideas and a lot of worlds for me, and help me feel like I wasn't alone. Because I think a lot of people, like one of the things of adolescence is you feel isolated. I think everyone goes through that. So for me, books in general were that safe haven and so are libraries. When I think of specific titles that were really important to me, I think about Diane Dwayne's "Young Wizards" series, which is set in New York City. And actually that sparked my whole, I want to go to New York where all the stars live. Now I still want to be in New York but for different reasons. And that was I like to say "Harry Potter" before "Harry Potter." It's a fantasy series that's been republished -- I think came out in the '80s and '90s. Just about to -- They start when they're 12 to wizard kids in New York City who are trying to figure out how life works. And they have this task to, you know, solve great unstoppable evil, and they're like, we're 12 years old, what do we do? And, I really love that because there was the sense of while there was magic and fantasy elements, the ultimate magic came from being the person who would step forward to solve the problem, right? And this idea that these magic powers are just an extension of doing the right thing and making sure you're there for each other and taking responsibility for your community. Like all of these really important themes that resonated for me. I was in the sixth grade when I found them and that was what I learned in my classes in library school, the right book for the right person at the right time. That really -- Those books really did a lot for me. And then I probably also have to say, back to sci-fi in general, I read Ray Bradbury like his entire everything in like middle and high school. I did like book reports on him, the teachers were like, you got to read somebody else. I joke and say that Ray Bradbury raised me. And while I certainly like -- As an adult, I might look back on some of the work more critically, now that I'm grown up, I have very fond memories of being in the library right until it closed trying to finish one of his short story collections. And this idea of, you know, these strange monsters or these strange technologies and all this in his books that I -- and this tiny little -- at that point of Virginia town, could tap into this great imagination.

[Frank] Wow.

[Ellen] And I remember that very vividly. And so I think very fondly of the golden age of sci-fi and the pulp magazines back in the day.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Ellen] And that makes me, I think, especially happy to see how far the genre has come since then. Because we're seeing just this blossoming of diverse voices and you've got authors of color, especially black women are doing some -- like this is another podcast. But there's just amazing -- Like N.K. Jemisin is doing amazing stuff in sci-fi right now.

[Rhonda] Oh, yeah. I'm a big fan.

[Ellen] Oh my gosh. She's so cool.

[Rhonda] Big fan.

[Ellen] So, yeah, I would probably say those two books, those two authors rather.

[Frank] Wow. Well, I am glad I asked.

[Rhonda] Yay.

[Frank] Can --

[Rhonda] And --

[Frank] So -- Oh, go ahead, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] Oh, I was just going to say, so it seems like the list of books that TRANSform is putting together is probably going to have, you know, a big impact on young people and change a lot of people's lives as well. What kind of programming or ways that you -- OK, let me rephrase that question. What kind of programming or different methods are you using to get this out to people?

[Ellen] A lot of what we're doing right now is we've got a core group of, I'd say, like maybe a dozen to 14 folks who are working on this behind the scenes. And they're taking information from their branches and kind of letting us decide, you know, what are the resources that librarians need? What are the things that patrons are asking for? Because I'm pretty knowledgeable about where I am but I -- you know, there's, what, 80 some branches in New York Public Library. So, for example, we've had a version of this talk for staff, so about books and about different kinds of programming and about how to support the staff with that at a few different branches. You know, we've -- we're going to do a internal genre training. So like what I've done here, except geared towards librarians, and a little more -- a little less gushing about the books and a little more, this is how you can find the books. And this is how -- You know if a patron says, I really love this series, how do I find people like it? We're doing that. With Stonewall 50 last year, we created a programmer's guide, which looks very different now that we're all working from home. You know, we're trying to figure out what programming looks like now. But in the past, you know, we were recommending things like a gender theme story time for kids.

[Rhonda] Oh, wow.

[Ellen] There's a really great example done by Brooklyn Public Library that I've been wanting to see if we can replicate which is a -- was it Genderful. Genderful, which was just this really fun like early literacy program with different books and you write songs. And it was just -- it was like a celebration. And it was, I think, a very positive thing that I definitely want to nab for our branch at some point. So there was that for younger kids. There was working with different New York organizations like suggesting -- So we haven't done like official partnerships. But, for example, there's the Trans Oral History Project of New York.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Ellen] Which -- Right, and they do amazing. I've actually got an interview up on there. They've got amazing oral history preservation where I don't want to say normal people but I'm saying people who are not historians like me. Yeah, sorry, I feel like my historian friends need an apology. You're all normal. I love you all. But that anyone can get trained to go and interview, which I think is really powerful because, you know, as we're seeing in the world today, history is being made in all corners. And it's not just the big things that get on the news every day, it's individual stories. So that was really neat. And they actually did a small partnership last year with Stonewall 50. So that was that was part of that. And if I had to pick one thing that I would love to do because I'm a giant nerd, who likes to research --

[Rhonda] You're in the right place.

[Ellen] Thank you. Wikipedia has what they call edit-a-thons.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Ellen] Where they --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Ellen] -- invite people like librarians or anyone who can access reference materials to really help pump up some of the articles that they have to make sure that they're researched well and written clearly. And they do things like there's one for Women's History Month every March and there's different projects and just, you know, I think it would be really cool to sit down for a few hours with other people and edit Wikipedia for Pride Month. I know that doesn't sound super exciting to some people. But I like that because then we can introduce patrons not only to our amazing materials in our branches and online. But we can also help people, I think, get a little more sense of empowerment of being able to tell their stories or the stories of others and realize that, you know, we are all collectively telling the story of what makes us human. And the more people, I think, who get involved with that, the better the story will be, and then we'll all have happy endings.

[Rhonda] I think that's a great idea. We do on a Schomburg every year.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And people come and they have like a great time just working together, you know, learning these new things. I think that would be great if you were able to put that together.

[Ellen] That would be -- I've seen Schomburg stuff and I'm like, oh, man, if we could just get some of that amazing work, if we could just borrow some of that. Yeah.

[Frank] Well, darlings. I bet -- At Jefferson Market, we would do a edit-a-thon every June for LGBT and --

[Rhonda] Oh, there you go.

[Frank] -- for a couple of years, we would do it. And you're absolutely right, Ellen, in that and Rhonda that in getting together with people with your laptops with the resources the library has both in print and online is a different kind of feel than just being by yourself. It's actually -- It's a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun and a lot of great exchange of ideas. So -- Because we have a great collections at Jefferson Market in the village, so it was really cool. So we should do it when all this stop -- when we can reopen again. We should do it.

[Ellen] Yes, absolutely. I am so looking forward to that.

[Frank] Yeah, like multiple borrow events, why not?

[Ellen] Absolutely, yeah.

[Frank] Anyway, we could go on and on apparently, my dears. OK. Any other questions, Rhonda, that you have?

[Rhonda] That was great. I learned so much.

[Frank] Yeah, I thought it was fantastic.

[Ellen] Great. I would just say one more thing, is that there is a really rich, I think, literary movement going on right now for trans and gender and more broadly LGBTQ stuff. And, I think that sometimes it can feel a little overwhelming if you're not familiar with the genre or if you feel like, you know, oh, that's not written for people like me. And I really recommend everyone, you know, expand your comfort zone and read something about someone else, someone who is very much not perhaps like you. And that's because books are -- Not only do these books help mirror myself back to me, right? That's very valuable but they are windows that other people can use. And when I think about why I became a librarian, it was because I wanted to make sure that we all have windows where we need to see and learn more. And so like just pick up a book and read, like it will literally blow your mind.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] That is a great note to end on, Ellen.

[Frank] [Inaudible] I don't think even I could have said it better.

[Ellen] Thank you. Thank you.

[Frank] There I am trying to grab center stage again. Ellen, that was fantastic. Thank you so, so much.

[Ellen] Of course, thank you so much. Oh, this was great.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.