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Hey all, happy April! Thanks for joining us again for another episode of  The Librarian Is In. This week Frank and Rhonda are discussing A Good Man Is Hard to Find and Other Stories  by Flannery O'Connor from the NYPL's 125 Books We Love List to read and discuss. We hope you had the chance to read along, too. 

A Good Man is Hard to Find by Flannery O'Connor

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, everybody. And welcome to "The Library is In." The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] And here we are, ready to talk about Flannery O'Connor's collection of short stories. "A Good Man is Hard to Find and Other Stories." It's one of the books that's on the New York Public Library's 125 Books We Love list. Celebrating the 125th anniversary of the New York Public Library. And hopefully all of you guys listening have read it or some of the stories in it. Because we are going to go to town on it. We're not holding anything back, right?

[Rhonda] No spoilers, but...

[Frank] No, we are doing spoilers. Wait.

[Rhonda] I mean, yes, I'm sorry, we are spoiling.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] A book that is about 70 years old.

[Frank] Right. I mean, but still, it's new for some people. I mean, I did read "A Good Man is Hard to Find," the title story.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] Which is probably one of her most famous. And it sort of never left me. So, when I reread it, it was interesting, to say the least. And reading her other stories was also an interesting experience. But we'll talk about that. Mrs. Evans, how are you?

[Rhonda] I am doing well, you know? Just doing what they tell us to do. Staying in and trying to, you know, stay busy. What about you?

[Frank] Well, I should say we are obviously not together.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] We're in our respective abodes, I suppose. I'm not going to ask exactly where you are. God knows where you are. But -- and the producer is in yet another spot.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But I'm okay. I didn't sleep well last night. I felt like I stayed -- I don't know why I -- ugh, whatever, it's fine.

[Rhonda] You feel like your schedule has gotten a little off, you know? And now that people don't have to get up at a regular time. And go out the door at a regular time.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] It's easy to kind of get that, you know...

[Frank] Oh, yeah.

[Rhonda] [inaudible].

[Frank] I mean, definitely I am a late-night person. So, like, I am going to bed later and later and later.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And to where, like, getting up to do this, I was, like, get up at 10:00? That's early. So, but maybe that's why I was just, like, not sleeping that well. But usually I sleep pretty well.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Anyway, just wanted to check in.

[Rhonda] [inaudible]. Yeah.

[Frank] I was going to ask you if you wanted to reveal this. What is your cats name?

[Rhonda] Her name is Matisse.

[Frank] Matisse?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] After the painter?

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Oh, cool.

[Rhonda] You know, she's got some nice colors [brief laughter]. So, I thought, like, that was an appropriate name.

[Frank] Oh, that's so cute.

[Rhonda] Yeah, so. And I -- hopefully you won't hear her in the background jumping around. And she's actually awake now, which is surprising.

[Frank] Huh.

[Rhonda] Yesterday she hid under the bed. So, I think she's kind of sick of me being here all the time.

[Frank] Well, I read about that. Like, you know, families and pets, it's, like, everyone is on top of each other. And they're not used to it.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Well, Matisse. Huh, at least it's not Pollock.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It would have been an interesting looking cat. Probably very poor looking cat. Speaking of Pollock, which is not a segue. I'm just doing it for the heck of it. "A Good Man is Hard to Find and Other Stories," by Flannery O'Connor.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Do you want to launch us into this one?

[Rhonda] Sure.

[Frank] What do you think?

[Rhonda] So, let's see. So, we've definitely -- you know, we've read the selection of stories. And maybe we want to start with the one that is probably most familiar to the readers.

[Frank] Okay.

[Rhonda] We can start, jump in with "A Good Man is Hard to Find." Which is written by her in around, I think, 1955 or so.

[Frank] Yeah. She was like -- I -- I don't -- l looked, you know, I looked a little bit into her, which will come up. You know, usually, as I always say, I like to not know really about the persons life -- the authors life and things like that. Because I want to just deal with the text on itself, on its own. But so, I didn't really do a lot of digging on her. But I did -- I mean, it's on the blurb of the book. She basically was -- she died in 1964 at 39.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So, when she wrote the story, she was 30 years old. I mean, geez, like, wow. I don't know, that's pretty amazing, though. But I do remember reading this story, probably in college. Because...

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Yeah. Did you?

[Rhonda] No. I actually remember reading this story -- there was a period of time, I think about five years ago. When I was really into short story collections. I was kind of going back and trying to find, like, you know, really good ones. And that's kind -- that was the first time I actually read the story, was about five years ago.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] I read her -- the larger collection that was published. And that, I think, came back and won like The National Book Award or something like that.

[Frank] Yeah. The complete collective stories won The National Book Award in the 70s, I think, when it came out?

[Rhonda] Yes, yes. So, that's when I read this story originally.

[Frank] Hmm.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Well, okay. So, this one does -- you know, it's funny. I -- I did -- I did read a little bit. Honestly, I did not read a lot. But I did read a little bit. And I did come upon or I did see a quote of Flannery O'Connor's, about her work. And there's -- "A Good Man is Hard to Find" is a shock. Can be a very shocking story. And she even said she felt people should know, in terms of spoilers. To know what happened in the story, to get rid of the surface shock. So, that the story can penetrate a deeper level in the reader. Do you know what I mean? So, it's not just, like, oh, my God! Like, what happened?

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] If you already know what's coming, then you can actually have, what she's trying to say. Which I'm not sure what she's trying to say, penetrate deeper.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So...

[Rhonda] And I think...

[Frank] Go ahead.

[Rhonda] [inaudible] things, you know? Because I had my theory of the end of what it all kind of meant. But there's definitely a lot -- I think that's one of the reasons why this story has kind of stayed in the public consciousness so long. Is because there are kind of a lot of theories that go on about, you know, why the ending happened as it did, you know?

[Frank] Okay. Well, good, I'm excited. Because I love theories. So, I guess briefly, you know, Flannery O'Connor is -- was born in Georgia. And her purview of what she writes about is the South, for sure.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So, she writes about the South. And she writes about the South, you know, in the period of time she was living it. So, that's like the late 40s, the 50s, the early 60s. Obviously when she died, Civil Rights had just been passed in 1964. So, she was really chronicling or writing about a South that was really sort of reaching its p -- I don't know. You know, like, I don't even know. But it was reaching its -- a sort of end of its line in some way.

[Rhonda] Yeah. So, that definitely comes up. And then I've also kind of, you know, seen her work described as Southern gothic.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And you saw that as well. You know, kind of adding that -- like you said, like, kind of coming to an end. This kind of macabre, this feeling to the South. But also, you know, she's really a devout Catholic [inaudible].

[Frank] Yes. That's an ingredient. And that's from the final thing I know about her, after I keep saying I didn't read a lot about her. Is that she was a devout Catholic. Which I really want to discuss with you.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Because I don't know quite -- well, we'll discuss that. But you said Southern gothic. There's also interestingly to me a noir quality to her work. Because -- and this can segue into the story. There aren't really protagonists in any of her stories -- I have not read her novels. That you would say are -- here we go again, likable or sympathetic. Or someone you can sort of say, ugh, here's my moral center or something.

[Rhonda] Absolutely.

[Frank] They're all, like, slightly dislikable, complicated. Almost like -- she's funny, too. Almost silly, foolish people. And sometimes are worse than just foolish. So, in "A Good Man is Hard to Find," a family of a mom and dad, a baby, two kids and grandma. Are going to -- they're from Georgia. They're going to go to Florida for a couple of days on a vacation. And so, basically the whole -- most of the story is they're in the car, traveling to their destination. It's funny, I don't want to reveal anything. But, like, I guess we are.

[Rhonda] But I feel -- and also, maybe it's important to say that I feel kind of the point of view that we get is the grandmother's point of view. Really, from the story, you know, kind of -- and like you said, being these unlikeable characters. You know, it kind of seems like her character is very kind of self-serving through the entire story. So, you see the grandmother try to kind of manipulate the family. To kind of get these things that she wants through this trip. And which ultimately leads to what happens at the end.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, she's definitely not telling the story. Because you do get every family members feelings about the grandmother. And she's just called "the grandmother" in this story. Like, her son is sort of, like, brooding and quiet. And basically, like, squeeze -- clenching the steering wheel in sort of simmering frustration all the time. His wife just basically holds the baby.

[Rhonda] Yes, she does.

[Frank] And feeds it and murmurs to it. And the two kids, their other two kids, who are, like, you know, ten or something. Are pretty just, like, outright nasty to the grandmother.

[Rhonda] Yeah. They're little terrors.

[Frank] Yeah. They're just like, you know, the grandmother at one point says, "Why don't we go to East Tennessee? We've been to Florida before." And like this little kid, the son said, "Well, stay home if you don't want to come." And then the daughter says, like, "Well, she wouldn't miss it, she's so all up into our business that she wouldn't -- that she can't miss out on something. She has to be the center of it all."

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And the grandmother is just like, "Oh, dears, oh, oh." Like, you know, she's like a foolish busy body. Certainly, set up that way by Flannery O'Connor. And she, at some point in the trip, remembers a plantation?

[Rhonda] Yeah. She remembers an old plantation that she wants to visit again.

[Frank] Right. And she says that -- she says to the kids that there's a secret panel in one of the rooms. And it's so cool. But then she says to herself -- she acknowledges to her -- actually, I don't know if she even acknowledges it. I think what Flannery O'Connor says is that she was telling this story, the grandmother, about the secret panel. And knowing it wasn't true.

[Rhonda] Right. She was lying.

[Frank] She was lying.

[Rhonda] Because that is what they would do -- they would want to go see that.

[Frank] Right. So, the kids get crazy excited about seeing this house.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Which totally reminded me of road trips when I was a kid. But the dad, her son, the grandmother's son caves. And says, "All right, we'll go look at it. And then go back to our route to Florida." So, they have to turn off to a dirt road. And go down this dirt road. Which is sort of off the beaten track, to get to this house. And then what happens? The grandmother realizes, oops, wait a minute. The house is not in Georgia, it's in Tennessee.

[Rhonda] [inaudible]. Right.

[Frank] She totally realized she made a mistake. And she had -- you know what? Let's see. I want to see -- I'm flipping through my book to give a taste of her writing. She [grunting] looking through the book. Where am I? Here, 117. When she realizes that she made a mistake. As they're driving down this bumpy dirt road and let's see [humming]. Dirt road, okay, okay. The -- so, Flannery O'Connor says, well, it says this. The son said, "This place better turn up in a minute," Bailey said, "Or I'm going to turn around." The road looked as if no one had traveled on it in months. "It's not much further," the grandmother said. And just as she said it, a horrible thought came to her. The thought was so embarrassing that she turned red in the face. And her eyes dilated and her feet jumped up, upsetting her valise in the corner. The instant the valise moved; the newspaper top she had over the basket under it rose with a snarl. And Pitty Sing, the cat, sprang onto Bailey's shoulder. The children were thrown to the floor. And their mother, clutching the baby, was thrown out the door onto the ground. The old lady was thrown into the front seat. The car turned over once and landed right-side-up in a gulch off the side of the road." So, basically, when she realizes she made a mistake as to where this house was, she initiates a car accident, basically.

[Rhonda] Right. And then that initiates an encounter. And I don't know, should we go ahead and [inaudible].

[Frank] Talk now. Which in true Tolstoy, is it Tol -- no, Chekhov fashion. Like, Chekhov always said, "If you're going to shoot someone in a play, introduce the gun early."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Or, if there's a gun -- or the other way around. Like, if a gun is mentioned in the first act, it better go off in the third.

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly.

[Frank] So, at the beginning of the...

[Rhonda] I think she does that...

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] I think she does that, definitely.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Like, you were saying. She wanted us to kind of anticipate what was going to happen. I think the reading, in the beginning, you know something bad is going to happen to this family. But I don't know...

[Frank] Well...

[Rhonda] Yeah. I think so.

[Frank] Well, you know, yes. That's a good point. Because at the beginning, you know, they're reading the newspaper around the table. And it's mentioned that this guy and his two cronies had escaped from prison. And, you know, as they mention in the story, "Oh, and they did such awful things to those people." Like, you don't really get more details. But, like, they were pretty hard criminals.

[Rhonda] And there's another point, too. Where she writes about, you know, the grandmother is kind of getting all of her, you know, her outfit ready for traveling. And then she talks about, you know, you have to make sure that you look really good when you travel. Because if you're -- I think she said something, like, "If you're dead on the road and someone finds you, you want to make sure that you look like a lady."

[Frank] Exactly.

[Rhonda] [inaudible]. So, she kind of, you know, they talk about the misfit. And how he just escaped. And she's talking about, you know, "I have to make sure that if someone finds my body that I look like a lady." And you just kind of definitely get this feeling of foreboding. Like, okay, something is about to happen to this family.

[Frank] That's a good point. Like, I don't usually pick up on stuff oddly like that. Like, to me, it seemed -- which is, you're right, because it does. But it seemed more like almost macabre humor. Like, it was a little bit, like, it was a little funny. Like, she was just, like, "Well, when they find my body after an accident, at least I'll now I'm dressed like a lady." Like, her priorities are just, like, I have to look like a lady. Because they make a point where the mom, the young mom with the baby, is dressed, you know, non-committedly. And nobody really dressed, except grandmother. But they do introduce the idea that there's criminals on the loose at the beginning. Which I, when I first read it, did not pick up on. I was just, like, they're just -- I just thought it was, like, color about the family's interactions. Like the mention of it was just a sort of indication of how the family interacts. But, of course, it was -- it led to an encounter.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Which was, they get out of the car, which had flipped over. Everyone's pretty much okay. I think they say that the mom, the young mom's shoulder was broken.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Which I was, like, oh, dear. And one of them has a cut on their face. The kids are fine. They're jumping up and down all excited, a little bit in shock. And then a car comes over the hill towards them. And they're all staring at it. And eventually reaches them and stops and three men get out. One of them is shirtless. And the other two are dressed. And basically, the guys who escaped jail, escaped prison, the misfit, as the leader is called.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And then oy vey.

[Rhonda] And then it, you know, we get led into this dialogue between the misfit and the grandmother as -- I guess I can go ahead and say it. Since we're kind of [inaudible] here. The misfit is kind of -- while he's having this dialogue, this kind of philosophical dialogue with the grandmother. I don't know if you can call it philosophical. But he's telling his other, I guess, like, fellow escapees. To take the rest of the family out one by one into the woods. And they shoot each member of the family.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And the grandmother is hearing this. And while the grandmother is hearing this, we're also kind of watching her interaction with the misfit.

[Frank] Which maybe leads into your theory of what the ending is about? Or do you want -- well, what you thought about the misfit himself and their interaction?

[Rhonda] Sure. I mean, you know what I thought about the misfit here as the villain. It's weird that he kind of came into this almost bringing -- I don't know if you felt the same way, like this sense of wisdom. Kind of like -- I think they might have even described him like this. Is coming in kind of having this knowledge of life, you know? That perhaps the grandmother didn't have. And so, kind of again, coming to theories, there's this idea of, you know, the grandmother is trying to tell him things like, you know, you need to pray. And you remind me of one of my children. And is it really self-serving of her saying all these things? Because she's kind of trying to save herself? Or kind of bringing in Flannery O'Connor's, you know, very devout Catholic background. Is this kind of a moment of, you know, of moralization? And she's kind of, you know, having this -- these revelations about life. So, those are kind of the things that I saw. But I kind of saw it as more self-serving. Because -- and maybe that's the most obvious explanation of it. But that's just kind of feeding into how we've seen her the entire trip. I don't know what you thought about that, Frank?

[Frank] Well, that's where it gets into an issue that appears again in Flannery O'Connor's stories, at least for me. And I think it might relate to the religious faith aspect. Because it -- at some point, you don't know where to put your hopes for the future, as a reader. Or, like, or to put your allegiance or to sort of figure out, like, what is she trying to say? Because the grandmother is very dithery and very concerned with appearances. And, you know, like you said, self-serving. And -- but, of course, all -- and this also comes over and over in Flannery O'Connor's stories. That sort of allegiance to manners.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And to surface, regardless of what's happening. And then usually in the stories, something bursts through that surface to usually a violent end. Or some sort of change. So, when the misfit comes in, he's actually a very sort of calm, soft spoken guy. Who, clearly has done some terrible things, but that are not illustrated for you.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And is a little skittish. But, you know, is polite to her back. And sort of goes about the business of killing the family in a very matter of fact way that's chilling.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because by the end of it, he's not happy about it. Even a colleague says, like, "Oh, that was fun." And he was, like, "It's not. It's not fun. Life is not fun. It's not good." And you had said about the grandmother saying that she -- saying to the misfit that he was one of her -- like one of her children. I think that's a moment actually, that deviates from her self-serving pleas to actually survive. When she basically says, you know, "Oh, you're a good man, you just need to pray, honey, you're a good man. You come from good people." She keeps saying that, that's like that appearance's thing. "You come from good people, I can tell, I can tell." But she at one -- at the last point, looks at him and actually has a revelation, an internal revelation. She goes, "Why, you're just like one of my children. You're like one of my babies." I think seeing him as a human being or seeing him -- seeing him without the reflection of her propriety.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Just to realizing, "Oh, oh, dear, you're just one of Gods creatures. You're just like you and me." And she touches him. And he's so -- he flips out. He sort of jumps out -- jumps back because of that and shoots her right away.

[Rhonda] So, you think that Flannery O'Connor was kind of writing in a moment of salvation for the grandmother, right before she died kind of thing?

[Frank] That's a good way to put it. And that's where I actually sometimes have trouble. And I don't know if you do, too, is I'm not very conversant on faith. I'm not very sure of how it works. Like, or how it manifests. I know it's not something that is just about morals. That it goes deeper than that. At least for Flannery O'Connor. Do you have anything to say about that, in terms of -- as a framework in which to read her? Read Flannery O'Connor?

[Rhonda] I mean, well, I come from -- you know, I went to years of Catholic school.

[Frank] Okay, that's good.

[Rhonda] So, maybe. I don't know, you know? But in reading about Flannery O'Connor, she was very devout. I think she went to mass, like, every day until she died. I read something about that. And I mean, not just in a Catholic faith. But I'm assuming, you know, almost on all levels of faith that you know, at any moment, no matter kind of what type of life you've led. There can be a moment of enlightenment, of final salvation. However, you want to call it. But I feel, like, kind of, like, that's what -- that's kind of how far I got with it. In terms of, you know, [inaudible].

[Frank] Well, yeah. Because they -- I mean, that word, at least I'm old enough to know that that word is an important word. Salvation is not a word to be taken lightly. But I don't personally feel the depth of what that word can mean to someone who might have the faith. So, I -- but I think, you know, Flannery O'Connor is not writing for only the faithful. She -- she -- her religion clearly infuses what she writes. But I think she wants to get points across to people who are not necessarily in the bold, you know?

[Rhonda] Yeah. And you know, you were talking about how she was saying -- and this kind of goes as well into the other stories that I read. About this concept of, you know, you're good country. You're good people. I know you're a good man. I know you're good people. And we see that, I think, throughout. That there is this people, kind of like -- and we can talk about this a little bit later, the idea of kind of, like, these strangers that enter these peoples lives. And, like, oh, these are good people. There's a certain type of person out there, a certain type of population that's just good, you know? And then they turn out not to be.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] So, are there really any good people, you know? Or do we really even know who anyone is? And, you know -- so maybe that's also part of it.

[Frank] You know, it just occurred to me. Maybe that's the thing is what she's really illustrating is that from the little I know of Catholicism. Is like that sense of original sin. That sense of, like, everyone is dirty. Everyone is -- or everyone is sullied morally or compromised morally. There's really no hope. But you only can hope for moments of revelation, salvation. That there really is no goodness in this bleak -- well, I don't want to use the word bleak. But, like, there's no goodness in this rotten world, that someone says in one of her stories. Except for those moments of burgeoning salvation. Either having it, like the grandmother does in "A Good Man is Hard to Find." Or as in some other story, are on the verge of it, or damnations. Like, in some stories, when they have this sort of heightened revelation, which is usually described by nature.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's almost the end of the line. Should we move on from that story and move into another?

[Rhonda] Sure, yeah, definitely.

[Frank] I mean, well, I don't know, we could go on and on.

[Rhonda] Yeah, we could.

[Frank] The story that really interested me is called, "The Life You Save May Be Your Own."

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And I really was looking forward to talking to you about it. Because "The Life You Save May Be Your Own." Because I was very confused by it. I think it was the first one I read. I didn't read them in order. And maybe that's why. I remember that, because I was just getting into Flannery O'Connor. It's basically a drifter.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] With one arm, actually. A young guy sort of comes into the yard of an old woman with her daughter.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And the old woman -- the daughter is, like, you know, late twenties. The guy is in his late twenties, too. And, you know, the way Flannery O'Connor writes, she sort of slowly -- this is what I mean. She really does a great job. You don't know where -- it's like a Twilight Zone episode. You don't know who's the bad guy, the good guy. Who you should start throwing your weight behind. Because the drifter, you know, by definition, coming into the yard. You're, like, oh. But then she writes that the mother -- the old lady, older lady realizes he's not someone to be feared. And you're, like, okay.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And so, but then there's, like, this standoff conversation between the drifter and the older lady. With the daughter who clearly seems to be impaired in some way.

[Rhonda] Yeah. I think she's deaf, right?

[Frank] She's deaf. Oh, right and she's never said a word. Right, right, right, right. And she's deaf and mute. And, you know, she tells -- the old lady says to the drifter guy, you know, I don't have any money. So, if you want that, I can't hire you. I can feed you and give you a place to sleep. But that's about it. So, want to take it from there?

[Rhonda] Sure. So, the drifter comes in. Kind of what you were saying, he kind of has this -- they have this conversation. And he does even kind of say, you know, you don't really know who I am. And I could be anybody. But she kind of has her kind of ulterior motive.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] As we'll get into. And he kind of has -- they kind of keep mentioning that he kind of keeps looking at this automatable. So, basically, she -- he stays. And does, like, work around the house. And he kind of even teaches the daughter some words. And the mother starts kind of planting this seed. Like, you should marry my daughter. And I think, you know, she wants someone maybe to take care of her daughter, when she, you know, when she's not there anymore. But she definitely keeps planting the seed. Keeps pushing, you know, you should -- you know, this would be a good wife for you. You know, she won't -- she said something, like, she won't ever talk back. And then she says something -- the mother says something along the lines of, you know, they both, you know, have these disabilities. And she's saying, you know, well, "There's really no place for either of you out in the world. So, you might as well marry each other."

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And live here in this house that's mortgage free. Because the rest of the world is just kind of going to kind of reject you.

[Frank] Right. Yeah, you have no better options. I mean, just to interject. She describes -- Flannery O'Connor, describes the drifter like this. "He seemed to be a young man, but he had a look of composed dissatisfaction as if he understood life thoroughly." It's a great line. I mean, there's so much in that one line. "He seemed to be a young man. He seemed to be a young man, but he had a look of composed dissatisfaction as if he understood life thoroughly."

[Rhonda] And we see that in other stories. We kind of see that description with the misfit. And...

[Frank] Oh, yeah.

[Rhonda] And "Good Country People," as well, when we -- if we get to that [inaudible].

[Frank] They definitely -- yes, her characters definitely -- not the same ones, but the same kind of character comes back in different stories for sure. But then, like, you were saying, the turning point of this story. The way Flannery O'Connor puts it about the old lady is saying, "She was ravenous for a son-in-law."

[Rhonda] For a son-in-law, exactly.

[Frank] "She was ravenous." And the girl, the daughter is like, almost 30. And when the drifter asks her how old she is, she says, "Oh, 15 or 16."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] The girl was nearly 30. But because of her innocence, it was impossible to guess.

[Rhonda] Yeah [inaudible].

[Frank] Go ahead now with the story.

[Rhonda] Do I finish up the story, or?

[Frank] Yeah, please. As you understand it.

[Rhonda] Oh, you want me to do it. Okay.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Sure. So, eventually, you know, he kind of pushes back a little bit saying, you know, "Well, I don't have the money. If I was going to marry someone, I would want to take them away for a weekend and for dinner." And the mother is kind of so, I guess, desperate to have this wedding or this marriage happen. That she's, like, "Fine, I'll give you a little bit of money to kind of take her away for the weekend and have a lunch." So, they go and they get married at the ordinary. Which, I guess is like a, you know, a public servant. And the mother, she keeps saying that they've never been parted before.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But she would let him take her for the weekend, as like a honeymoon. And then to come back and they'll all live together.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] So, he takes her out.

[Frank] But before that, like, he also says after the marriage ceremony how dissatisfied he is. That the -- at legality of the event they just went through was not fully satisfying.

[Rhonda] Right, yeah.

[Frank] You know, like, she -- the old woman says, like, "It satisfied the law." And the drifter, named Mr. Shiftlet, says, "The law -- it's the law that don't satisfy me."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Like, -- he's, like, -- that's why I really spent the whole story, at first being wary of him. And thinking the grand -- the older lady -- she's not the grandmother in this story. Would be sort of the antagonist, like, get him out of here. But then she really needs, wants him to marry the daughter. And now I don't -- I was trying to understand the character of this man. I mean, how do you understand the character of this drifter guy, because...?

[Rhonda] Yeah. I mean...

[Frank] That's important.

[Rhonda] I don't know, it's similar to kind of like to what you were talking about with this moment of salvation with the grandmother. Because ultimately what happens is he abandons her. He takes her...

[Frank] I know.

[Rhonda] To a diner, where she falls asleep at the table. He gets up and he goes on. And things happen when he picks up this hitchhiker. And the hitchhiker, you know, jumps out of the car. And he sees this sign that says, "The life you save may be your own." But the real kind of issue, is what you're -- I believe you're speaking about, is the moment when he decides to abandon her. Just leave her.

[Frank] Well, yes. Because, like, that's why -- to back it up, I asked, like, what you thought his character was to begin with. Because then all those choices are just mind boggling to me. Because actually, to be honest, I read it -- the first story I read was this story. And I somehow missed the fact that he abandons her. And I even thought, like, huh, what's the girl doing, while he's having this interaction with this boy hitchhiker? And I reread the story this morning. And would think, oh, my God, he left her in the diner!

[Rhonda] He left her. Yeah.

[Frank] So, he brings her into the diner and she falls asleep at the table. And the waiter, who is like a teenage boy himself, touches her hair. And says she looks like an angel. Because she's sort of blonde and cherubic. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I -- who -- and he goes, "Who is she?" And he says -- the drifter says "A hitchhiker. But I got to go, I'm late." And he leaves her. And then...

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And then he gets into the car. And he picks up another boy, a hitchhiker boy, who's not even actually thumbing a ride. He's just standing at the side of the road. And Mr. Shiftlet, the drifter says to himself. Like, he has to be good. And on the lookout for people who need help? And picks the guy -- the boy up. And then, yeah. And then what?

[Rhonda] And yeah.

[Frank] So, weird.

[Rhonda] He has that whole conversation with the boy. And the boy is like, forget about. And just jumps out of the car while he's still driving.

[Frank] Right. I mean, he basically starts saying, like, you know, he says to the boy, well -- I mean, first of all, the car was obviously something he had fixed from the older lady who had the car. So, that's where the car came from. It just occurred to me, like, suddenly we're in a car. But he says to the boy, the hitchhiker, you know, "Since my mother is the best mother in the world, you must have the second best." And the boy didn't say anything. He's like, "She's -- the mothers love is a wonderful thing to have. They teach you your prayers. They love you when no one else will." And then the boy, before he jumps out of the car, says, "My mother was a fleabag and your mother was a pole cat, a stinking pole cat." And jumps out and jumps into a ditch. And that's really when it ends, as a storm seems to be brewing.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And he drives on alone. He's so shocked that he drives with the door open a little -- for a little while. And then this storm descends. And he prays that the world will become clean because of this storm. And drives on to Alabama, which is where he was going. I was, like, what?

[Rhonda] Yeah. And it's so interesting, he had the whole conversation about mothers. When he kind of pulled this young girl away from her mother. Who was the only thing that she ever knew, right?

[Frank] So -- yeah.

[Rhonda] They keep emphasizing they had never ever spent a day apart.

[Frank] And, like, his shocked to the boys comment of the mother. And then truly, as the storm descends on the car, truly praying and begging for the world to be cleansed. And he just left her. What is him? What is he about, Rhonda? You have to tell me.

[Rhonda] Well, I wish I knew. But I wonder if they're kind of -- he has a moment where he can make a moral choice. I wonder if that's kind of maybe what is coming up there. Saying, like, okay, he's done this. And then he, you know, he takes her to the diner. There's a moment there where he can kind of do the good thing. Or he could do the not good thing. And he chooses to kind of just leave her. So, you know, coming up with these moral, you know, talking about the salvation, these moments that can change you. And then to me, it kind of seems like -- and we see this in other stories of hers as well. The thing about the Catholicism and everything. Kind of like the serpent or the wolf in sheep's clothing kind of coming in and taking these people's innocence, you know? I don't know, those are kind of just some of the things I thought about.

[Frank] I don't know, by the end of it, I almost think it's the opposite, that he's the sort of innocence. And he's sort of the one seeking purity and goodness. That the mother, you know, wants to get her kid -- that's what she wants. You know, herself -- in a way, she's -- I mean, it sounds like survival. And it is survival. But in some way, you could see it as selfish. That she's, like, all right, this guy will do. He can fix things. Even though he has one arm, he can still do stuff. My daughter is deaf and mute and maybe other issues with her. This is the last hope for both of them. I need to marry them off. And I still want to be in control, because they're going to live in my house. And he's -- he doesn't push back. But as the indication -- the example, when they get married, how dissatisfied he says he was with that ceremony, that it didn't mean anything. Maybe he's searching for meaning. And maybe that's the seed that plants in his head that he can abandon her.

[Rhonda] Interesting.

[Frank] Which is a harsh move, but...

[Rhonda] It's a harsh move.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] I felt he was sinister all along.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] I don't know, maybe that's just the mindset that I came from thinking with "A Good Man is Hard to Find." Is kind of from the moment that he entered the story and talked about, you know, "How you never really know people. And even if a heart surgeon took his heart out and looked at it, you'd never really know who I am."

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And how he's kind of eying the entire time. They keep bringing back how he's eyeing this automobile that she has. And in my head, I kind of, like, this is some kind of plot. Or this is something that he might do occasionally. Just kind of go and maybe prey on some of these, you know, people who are out isolated, alone. I don't know. I can see how -- and I think it's interesting that it can be read both ways.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] [inaudible] kind of something sinister. So, when he did leave her, I don't think I was -- it's disturbing that I don't know if I was really surprised that he abandoned her.

[Frank] And I don't -- I think maybe I missed -- well, the first time I read it. I somehow missed that he left her. So, it didn't read as sinister to me. It read as more of a mission of hopelessness that she was not a good person herself. Or that she was not the source of any salvation. Or that she was not anything, really. Anything of importance to his, not higher mission, but his quest. His almost inculcate quest to find salvation. You gave me the word. I mean, like you said about the heart.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] He says to the old lady, you know, surgeons -- "You know what surgeons can do these days. They can cut up a human and hold the human heart in their hand. But they do know," meaning the surgeons, "They don't know anything more than we know. We know as much about the human heart as they do. And they can hold it in their hands." Oh, man, I don't know. This was an interesting one for me. Because it kept flipping. Like, you know, I didn't know -- I don't know. It's powerful, though. It's hard -- it's hard to read.

[Rhonda] It's a hard one to read. Because I feel like you and I kind of brought two completely different readings to it.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah.

[Rhonda] Well, it's definitely, you know.

[Frank] Well, what about -- oh, my Lord. Do you think we have time for another story?

[Rhonda] I don't -- well...

[Frank] Maybe not.

[Rhonda] The only thing I was going to say is that for some reason this -- the -- "The Life You Save May Be Your Own" and "Good Country People." I just saw a lot of similar means there that I thought were really interesting. And I mean, I don't know if we want to talk about those, but.

[Frank] Well, give me something from "Good Country." Give me something from "Good Country People".

[Rhonda] [inaudible] "Good Country People." Well, yeah, "Good Country People," just very briefly, is, you know, this woman named Joy. Who also has a disability. She had -- she's missing a leg. She has a wooden leg. And she's very educated. She has a PhD. And she's gone home to live with her family. She also has a heart condition.

[Frank] Yeah. I want to say one thing. The description of Joy is very similar to this description of the blonde deaf daughter in...

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] She also says at one point in the new story, "Good Country People." That she's almost 30, but she says she's 17. There's this theme. And she's blonde and pudgy and sort of cherubic.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Which both of those characters are very similarly described. Anyway, so, she lost her leg in a shooting accident.

[Rhonda] Right. And she's kind of -- there's this expectation kind of put on her that -- or she is, you know, that she's unhappy. And she's kind of, you know, always walks around just, like, with this kind of, like, negative attitude. And she changed her name to Hulga. And she, like, makes all this noise with her leg when she walks. And so, basically, a Bible, a young Bible salesman comes. And again, people have thought of, like, oh, this is good people. You're good people. And he kind of -- I don't know if he tricks her. But he convinces her to kind of take a walk with him. And they go up into the top layer of this barn. And she kind of thinks that she's the one who's seducing him. But he turns out not be a Bible salesman. He's kind of, like, this rogue drifter.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Who kind of collects things. In his Bible, you see, like a flask. And he said he took someone's, like, glass eye. And basically, the goal was to take her leg. And he abandons her at the top of this barn, without her leg. He takes her leg, puts it in this suitcase that's supposed to have Bibles in it. And takes off.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] You know? So, you know, and I think -- you know, so, we have that, you know, these two women who have these disabilities. And these men who are kind of, like, these drifters who are coming in. And, you know, just kind of seeing those were the similarities that were coming up. If we had more time, we could probably spend hours discussing that.

[Frank] I think, like, what little I know of faith, is that there just like no good people. Everyone is sullied. And all they can hope for us moments of grace. Like, what do you understand the concept of grace?

[Rhonda] Grace, I see, is like forgiveness, right?

[Frank] Yeah, exactly.

[Rhonda] Yeah, so [inaudible] moments of that. And also, this, you know, just in our moment of isolation. I guess during the time period that she was writing, the idea that this actually was something that people kind of went through back then. Like, these ideas of the drifter or the stranger.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] People just kind of coming into your life randomly. Like the Bible salesmen, the transient worker, the milkman, I don't know. But the idea of these, like, strangers just kind of floating in, you know? I thought that was interesting. Especially in the moment that we are in right now.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah. I know we should probably go. But there's -- quickly, one final story, if I can. Like, it was probably the most poignant and impactful, oddly to me, was called, "The River."

[Rhonda] Oh, I read "The River," yeah.

[Frank] "The River," which was a little boy, like four or five, maybe six. Such descriptions in the writing in this one is spot on beautiful and descriptive. She's not a flower writer. She's not a -- she's -- she can be very straightforward. And very descriptive about where she is. But she nails -- she nailed it often. But the little boy is -- clearly, his parents are like drinkers and like to party, you gather. And he sort of spends a lot of time on his own, puttering about the house, as his parents' sort of get over hangovers. But it seems this one particular morning, they're getting him off to a babysitter. Who is going to take the boy to her own home and watch him for the day. While parents recover from a hangover or do God knows what. And she does. And she takes him to her house. And there's other kids there. Either her own or others she was watching. But she takes them to a preacher in a river, who's doing a revival meeting of sorts. Like a sort of healing meeting. But he also says, "I'm not going to heal you, like only Christ can." And you know, he talks about salvation and saving people. But I think the boy has not been baptized and says so. And wants to be. And the babysitter woman says, "Take this boy and baptize him." And so, he goes into the river. And oh, it's so poignant.

[Rhonda] And pray for his mother, is also what she says.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] And pray for his mother.

[Frank] And pray for his mother. Oh, because the boy says his mother is really ill. And it's just a hangover. And he says this to the preacher. And the preacher is then shocked. And, like, wait, what? But you just reminded me of something else. Oh, he also -- he -- it's very -- a good detail. He -- when asked his name by the babysitter, the babysitter had already been talking about this preacher. And the preachers name was Bevel. And he asked -- when she asked his name, he said, "My name is actually, Bevel." And she's like, "Oh, my God what a coincidence. You both have the same name as this preacher. You have to go." And you already get this sense, this boy is saying it to please her. To be mattered -- to matter.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So, anyway, he's in the river with the preacher and being baptized. And this is so sad and so sweet. The preacher says to him, "Now you count."

[Rhonda] Right, exactly [inaudible].

[Frank] "Now you count." And the boy is just, like, "Now I count." And he goes back home after the day is over. And the mother is, like, you know, has guests over. They're already drinking and having a party of some sort. You know, she says, "What did you do today?" And one of the things he says, "I count now. I count now." And she's, like, "Okay, hon." And she's like a benign presence. She's not abusive.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And the next morning he wakes up and putters through the house. When, you know, the cigarette butts on the floor. And he even, like, dumps an ashtray to grind the cigarettes into the floor to make it look like it happened at the party. But he's doing it himself. And he knows what he has to do. And he steals a trolly cart token from his mother's purse. And takes the trolly back to where he remembers the babysitter lived. And walks down to the river. And looks for the preacher, but not there. And he sees the river. And realized that when he was told he counted, is when he was baptized in the river. And goes into the river. And oh!

[Rhonda] And he gets in and floats away.

[Frank] It's so sweet, though. And then there's this guy [inaudible]. This guy running after. Her writing in this is so -- this is so brilliant. The garage mechanic who follows the boy. Because he sees -- why is this five-year-old all by himself? And the writing about him watching the boy in the river. You suddenly come out of the boy's consciousness. And into a sort of outside third person view of the mechanic seeing the boy. He dies though, the boy, I think. He drowns.

[Rhonda] They don't say it explicitly. But that's what -- that's what I got from that.

[Frank] It does say at the end, like, he -- because being submerged with the baptism, meant that's what he was going for. He felt like he mattered then. And so, at the end of the story, he -- it says, he finally went under. Where he didn't feel fury and anger anymore. And feel like his life was a joke. He always says his parents were always a joke. Like they were jokes. Everything was jokes and no meaning. He lost his fight. And it was a good thing. So, it was almost like he yielded to this salvation.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But you're right, it doesn't explicitly say it. But then it says something like the garage mechanic looking and running to the shore. And looking into the river and not seeing the boy.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because he was gone.

[Rhonda] And I think, wasn't the garage mechanic the same -- was he -- he was the same gentleman who had the cancer over his ear?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And he was the one -- he showed up at the baptism, but he didn't believe.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Because he -- the preacher was never able to heal the cancer that he had. And so, he would kind of show up at the baptism. And that -- make fun and mock. And he was there when Bevel, with the young boy, who called himself Bevel, was getting baptized. And hew as kind of laughing at him for saying, like, the mother was hungover. And he's the one who ultimately tries to save him.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And he can't.

[Frank] Exactly. That's where I wonder about the aspect of faith. And also, interpretation of reading it now. Because what struck me so sweetly was his -- the boys -- it was a psychology I could understand. Meaning, the boy says I matter. Because of the gesture of being baptized. And that I can understand in our pop psychology. Or our current way of thinking, is, like, oh, he's being seen. Whereas, his parents are sort of drunks and partiers. And really just benign distant presence in his life. He feels like he matters. So, I'm, like, oh, that psychology I can understand. But I feel like, with the faith element, there's -- it probably means something even more than just I matter. Like, there's a sense of something that Flannery O'Connor writing this. Which she does convey in her writing, of something quite powerful.

[Rhonda] I thought so.

[Frank] To the point it's worth dying for. I don't know. Oh, man, I'm exhausted.

[Rhonda] Right. And [inaudible] he wasn't saved, couldn't save him. I don't know, that's kind of, like, you know. I thought that was something, as well.

[Frank] Well, I need a nap. How about you?

[Rhonda] I hear you. That was a deep discussion today, Frank.

[Frank] Was it?

[Rhonda] I think so.

[Frank] I don't know. I hope so. I mean, yeah, I feel like you have to read Flannery O'Connor. And read -- at least read the stories we discussed. And then she has two novels, "Wise Blood" and what's -- "Wise Blood" and I can't remember the other one. But...

[Rhonda] I never read her novels. I've only read her short stories.

[Frank] Yeah. And they're -- most of them are under 20 pages. But they certainly pack a lot. I was thinking, like, oh -- I always do this. Like, we're not going to have enough to talk about. This is the longest podcast we've ever done. Because there's so much in there.

[Rhonda] So much.

[Frank] Anyway, let me let you get back to your life of sitting around waiting for everything to get better.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Ohh.

[Rhonda] So, we'll be back.

[Frank] Yeah, we'll be back in a couple of weeks and as scheduled. You can still check us out at nypl.org/125. And listen to us there or wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, I always say this. And I really think people are already listening. So, they've gotten this podcast. Oh, I don't know. Anything you'd like to mention, Rhonda?

[Rhonda] Well, next week, we will announce our next book club pick.

[Frank] Oh, yeah, from the list.

[Rhonda] Right. Not next week, I'm sorry, next episode.

[Frank] In two weeks.

[Rhonda] We will announce that list.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So, definitely listen for that, so you can join in our conversation again.

[Frank] Yeah. And in a couple of weeks, our next episode will be just what we're reading on our own. So, that will be interesting. So, thank you, Rhonda. And thank you, everybody for listening. And take care of yourselves.

[Rhonda] Bye.

[Narrator} Thanks for listening to "The Librarian is In." A podcast for the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe. And leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play. Or send us an e-mail at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans. We are produced by Christine Ferrel and recorded at our Andrew Heiskell Braille and Talking Book Library in Manhattan.