Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Happy New Year! We're starting off this year sort of where we left off. In our last episode of 2021, Crystal read The Twilight Zone by Nona Fernandez. The book intrigued Frank so much that he read it over the holidays and the two discuss it again today.  

Crystal also highlighted some comic books she loves written by Black authors. They're a great way to get ready for the 10th Annual Schomburg Center's Black Comic Book Festival being held virtually between January 13–15. 

The Twilight Zone by Nona Fernandez

A writer and documentarian follows the life of a member of the secret police who admitted to torturing people during the Pinochet dictatorship in 1984 Chile. (Publisher summary)

 

 

 

 

 

Far Sector by N.K. Jemisin 

For the past six months, newly chosen Green Lantern Sojourner "Jo" Mullein has been protecting the City Enduring, a massive metropolis of 20 billion people. The city has maintained peace for over 500 years by stripping its citizens of their ability to feel. As a result, violent crime is virtually unheard of, and murder is nonexistent. But that's all about to change in this new graphic novel that gives a DC's Young Animal spin to the legacy of the Green Lanterns. (Publisher summary)

 

 

 

The Black Panther Party by David F. Walker

Founded in Oakland, California, in 1966, the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense was a radical political organization that stood in defiant contrast to the mainstream civil rights movement. This gripping illustrated history explores the impact and significance of the Panthers, from their social, educational, and healthcare programs that were designed to uplift the Black community to their battle against police brutality through citizen patrols and frequent clashes with the FBI, which targeted the Party from its outset. (Publisher summary)

 

 

Infinitum by Tim Fielder 

King Aja 'ba and Queen Lewa are revered across the African continent for their impressive political and military skills. Yet the future of their kingdom is in jeopardy, for the royal couple do not have an heir of their own. When the King kidnaps his son born to a concubine, Obinrin, she curses 'ba with the 'gift' of immortality. After enjoying long, wonderful lives both, Queen Lewa and the crown prince die naturally, leaving the ageless bereaved King 'ba heartbroken and alone. Taking advantage of 'ba's vulnerability, enemy nations rise to power and kill the king ' or so they think.  King Aja 'ba survives the fatal attack, finally realizing the bitter fruit of Obinrin's curse. Infinitum presents a unique cosmic experience, addressing issues of racism, classism, gender inequity, the encroachment of technology and the spiritual cost of war, while exposing the history behind ancient mysteries. (Publisher summary.)

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] And I'm in a bad mood, I guess.

[Crystal] Oh no!

[Frank] I don't know. We were talking before we went on air and just a lot going on, I guess, for everybody.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know. Also, you know, I mean, yes, also the -- I did read, by the way, if I didn't already tell you I was going to do, I read the book you read for the last time, "The Twilight Zone" by Nona Fernandez, which I have to say doesn't make me in a bad mood but it's sort of [inaudible] talk, I guess.

[Crystal] Oh no!

[Frank] But I wanted to read it. No, I wanted to read it. First, before that, well like, so what's going on? Anything on your mind, culturally?

[Crystal] For me, culturally? Oh my God. I mean, it's the new year. Been reflecting a lot on the past year, reflecting on why I would like to happen this year. Putting good thoughts into the world. I think this is the first year that I'm not going to be doing like a NYPL book committee for a while. So there's a lot of freedom in what I can read, which is nice. Very happy about that. Also, it's a little scary because it feels like there's this void of everything is a possibility. But yes, that's how my day's going so far. How are you doing?

[Frank] Yes. I'm alright. It's just it was a wild morning, I guess. It's like, as you know, like, you know, staffing trouble in the branches and trying to make things happen. And then, you know, it's been -- And it's going to be an intense couple of weeks, you know. The pandem (pandemic) and getting through that. So yes, it's just like -- Again, it's like, you know, actually there was a line from "The Twilight Zone" that you discussed last week that I read because you intrigued me and I wanted to talk to you about it. It sort of said what I was just about to say vis-a-vis, the state that the world's in right now sort of about when Fernandez in "The Twilight Zone" says, "I wonder how we'll tell ourselves the story of our times." And I always say that because I was about to say that too. It's like my impulse is to say, oh, you know, it's just going to be, this is the last push of the pandemic. It's like, you know, it's burning its way through the population. It's highly contagious but not causing as much horror to the public. And I always say like but then I don't want to say, yes, just by February just chill. We'll be fine. Like March, the spring will be glorious. And I want it to be that case but -- And it seems like after two years, it should be. But there's always that part I can't unequivocally say that because there's that part that says I don't know. Like I don't know, you know. So it's that sense of I wonder how we'll tell ourselves the story of our times like in 50 years, if we remember, I guess, it's hard to believe we won't, but how this whole period of time will be told, what story will be told. I mean, we were talking before we got on air about like all the different messages we've received from various authorities about over the last two years that have changed and how everyone's trying to make the best decisions they can, I suppose, but [inaudible] it's always like an unknowable because it's not like many people who are in leadership, in any organization or the country, like necessarily know better or what to do exactly, just trying to make those choices. At least that's how I see it. Hopefully --

[Crystal] And I [inaudible] to the [inaudible] capitalism, so --

[Frank] I mean, it's all in the pot. I know. I know. I mean, but, you know, I mean I always, I've told you this before. I've always thought whenever decisions are made from "up above" as they say or "they" make decisions in any organization, our own or the government or whatever, I think about being a manager of 10 to 15 people in a small branch because it's a tiny version of that. But it's still like there is a hierarchy just like in the world. I am considered the manager so that I'm sort of like the last stop for, you know, authority kind of thing. And I imagine that experience and try to make it, try to understand how it can be on a larger scale. Like I never can please everybody in staff. I know that. I know that after 20 years managing Jefferson Market and so I already know that's the thing. Whatever choice I make, someone might have a problem with it. And it always used to shock me and I couldn't believe it because my intentions were good. And then as time went on, I said, well I can see their point. And it just made me tired and depressed because I was like, oh, right, you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time. And I was like no matter what you do, you sometimes get it. So I sort of understand that even on a bigger scale. And I don't expect necessarily everyone to know much more than I do even though, of course, information is [inaudible] of course I do have more information sometimes and leaders do have more information, of course. But the choice is [inaudible]. I mean, anyway, you know what I mean.

[Crystal] Yes. Management is very difficult, for sure. And I agree, it's very difficult to just please everyone. That's really not going to happen. I think I just wish more people were reflective like you are reflective and more cognizance of like their complicity in these kinds of systems that do actual real harm to people, right, in trying to like make changes for the better, you know.

[Frank] Yes. And it's always like extenuating circumstances. Like, you know, I said this morning was wild among many things that one thing happened at Jefferson Market regarding renovation that I was expected to weigh in on. But no one said anything until like the very last minute. And so I got hit with like a request that I had to make an immediate decision about that I would rather have been thoughtful about. And it's -- But then I -- The extenuating factors come in because immediate feeling is rage towards the people asking me. Like, why did you do this now, like what are you waiting for? But I also don't always know what their life is like, what maybe they got it from above them. Like everyone answers to somebody. And it got pushed down, like -- So in other words, the thoughtfulness comes in because like well I felt rage but don't necessarily live in that rage because I don't know their story. I don't know if they, you know, they're being -- Why would I assume they're just being mean about it or thoughtless or uncaring. It might be -- There might be another story there. You know what I mean, like those extenuating factors sometimes. We don't always want to think about those things because it's easier just to sort of make people, and, again, this ties into the book, too, good or bad. You're either good in a situation or you're bad in a situation. And it's not that way. People are not all good and all bad. There are extremes, of course, of either end. But Fernandez in "The Twilight Zone" talks about that as well. Anyway, should we just talk about the book?

[Crystal] Oh yes, yes.

[Frank] I did read "The Twilight Zone" because I was interested when you talked about it last time about what I thought with my, what I was intrigued by was that she has these pop culture references like the TV show "The Twilight Zone" that this author and narrator, it's a fiction book. Grew up watching and was obsessed with but and how that relates to, which is the main point of the book, is the experience growing up in Chile, in the '80s during a Pinochet regime, a very hard dictatorship in that country and what that dictatorship did to the dissidents, the political dissidents in Chile at the time. And the author and narrator was like a teenager during that period. And this book seems to be sort of grappling with that history. So does that sort of put it right, you think?

[Crystal] Yes. Although I will say like the part about the dissidents is also like I think some of them were ordinary citizens. Like I think there was a story where they were related, maybe, to a dissident or yes, because there's no, what's the word, like rule of law. It's not like they're being tried, right, you know. So I think innocent people and I think the dissidents are also like innocent people in a lot of ways, too, were just being [inaudible], right.

[Frank] Right. Because it was the -- Well, the torture basically and killing of these dissidents and other people, I think the other people were investigated because they thought they might have a connection or information about these dissidents. Like it was related to these communists, the suspect of communism dissidents in a harsh dictatorship. And you're right, like you said, they weren't involved with public trial or anything because it was done completely underground. And the public, you know, "knew" about it but it wasn't something that really anyone talked about, at least a regular person in Chile's society, you know. I mean, if anything, the most powerful part of the book was and that's where "The Twilight Zone" comes in is the juxtaposition of this young girl living this suburban life, like watching TV, watching The Twilight Zone after she gets home from school. And literally two blocks away, someone's being tortured in a house, that's a, you know, a house made for that. And she doesn't know it. And that comes up a lot in the book about these juxtapositions of waiting for a bus, watching a TV show, talking to your mom in the kitchen when just down the road, there are these horrific crimes, horrific torture scenes of the terrible dictatorship trying to get information out of these suspected communists who the dictatorship sees as a threat. So there are dictatorships. I mean, Fernandez has another wonderful quote about that what I just said, saying that there has never been a kitchen anywhere in the world safe from the blaze of history even in our most mundane domestic moments. Like somewhere in the world or very close to home is something happening that impacts us directly, whether we know it at the time or not. And I think she's very conscious of that. I mean, there's some point she talks about looking at, as she gets older and she's looking from the vantage point of now back to the '80s. She goes into a house that's obviously no longer a prisoner, you know, a detention house where these suspected communists that were tortured and kills. And she walks into the bathroom, which the house is built originally as just a suburban house but it was appropriated by the government to torture these dissidents. And she walks into the bathroom and talks about the blue tile on the wall or green tile on the wall and how it was made to be just like, you know, a domestic, scene of domestic happiness and is something that made you feel good and yet it was -- I'm not even going to tell but it goes into a terrible scene of torture. I hate that word right now. Somehow the word "torture" just seems harsher as if it could ever not be less harsh. But I don't know, I hated writing it and reading it as I was reading it. That's what I meant before about my bad mood. It was that same time that I was reading the book, I was like why am I reading this right now. It somehow so hard. And I was sort of interested about you, like why, you know, what was your impulse to pick it up and what's your thoughts on it more?

[Crystal] Yes. Well, definitely the description was very interesting to me. I don't know why. I think maybe because I have not seen The Twilight Zone show and I was like very intrigued by this permissive like interweaving all of that together. One of the things that came up when you were talking was that idea definitely of people just not knowing what was happening. But the thing that I really liked about the book were those scenes where something would happen. Like that particular scene where somebody gets run over by a bus. And people are about to run to help this person until they realize that the secret police are involved. And all the sudden, they all freeze, right. And then they just pretend like it's not happening and pretend like they don't see anything. And I think that's interesting, too, because I feel like the author calls that out. It's not like we were just, like maybe for her as the narrator as a child did not know but there were definitely adults who knew what was happening but were turning an eye away from it because they were fearful for themselves, right. And so they were in some ways allowing it to happen because they didn't want it to happen to themselves as well. I found that to be very interesting, too.

[Frank] What's interesting about --

[Crystal] Go ahead.

[Frank] Oh. No, just to jump in, as I do, is even not so much awareness of what could happen to oneself but also that maybe that sense of the government is doing this and maybe they're doing it for a good reason. I mean, there was a reviewer that talked about this book and said, commented that almost everyone likes to believe that they have the courage to, you know, refuse an order that's forcing you to harm another person. And then this reviewer like extended that thought to saying that maybe that there's also the faith in the authority of their government that they would never demand such a thing unless it was for a really good reason because again, remember just like now with the pandemic with information. It's like that public also might've felt like, oh, there must be serious problems, like with these people. That's why they're killing them in our neighborhoods and really under our noses. And there might be the element of like well if the government approves of it. I mean, I think about this amazing play called The Investigation by Peter Weiss. I've talked about this before that's based on the Nuremberg trials transcripts about the Nazis that killed the Jews. And people in the camps and like some people were like, well, you know, our government told us to do this, like it was something that we were told to do. And there's a sense of like you need -- Like the quote I just said. You hope you'd be the kind of person that would say no but at what cost, like your entire world, government is telling you this is what to do. I mean, I think maybe that's why I was somewhat anxious and agitated reading it because it's sort of relates in a less, well I was going to say less deadly way but maybe not, with pandemic stuff like, you know, mask mandates, things like that. People are against them. People are for them. Like, you know, against the vaccine. For the vaccine. And like all this relationship to authority. And it just made me crazy because like I -- Like you said before and it was very nice of you to say like to be as thoughtful as I seem to be being and I hope I am but like of course you can never be thoughtful enough. But just sort of thinking like well, it makes sense. Like certain things just make sense. I mean, but then, you know, if the government said well, you should fire everyone or if [inaudible] take it to a horrible extreme like kill someone who's not following a mask mandate, would I do it. Like, what? You know what I mean? Like think of it that way. Like we're so in a luxurious position in America to actually mercifully, at least now, not have to deal with that, that kind of thing.

[Crystal] Yes, I do think there are certain things in society that like I don't know. It's very easy to get dehumanized in a lot of ways, right. And I see that just with like social media, the way certain videos are passed around. And I can see how like things can lead to other things. I don't know. I do think it's interesting that connection that you made in terms of the relationship with authority in regards to the pandemic and citizens and the governments. And it does seem like things are in a certain kind of turmoil now although hopefully not as severe as that but I don't know.

[Frank] Yes. I mean, that's -- It was a revelation to me. Like I said in the play, The Investigation, there were even prisoners of war in the camps who were prisoners themselves who actually stole food from other prisoners because they wanted to survive. And it was just like, you know, again, where is that quote from this book, "The Twilight Zone"? I have it. Let's see. Oh, here. She's talking about in present day going to the Remembrance Museum which is a museum in Chile, I guess, based on that terrible time. And she observes the presentation of the crimes. And it's presented as like one big massacre, a fight between good guys and bad guys who are easy to tell part because the bad guys are in uniform and the good guys are civilian. The citizenry is free of responsibility, innocent, blind, all of them victims. And so we're, you know, growing up, I was used to looking, used to -- We looked at the Holocaust as like it was clear who was bad and who was good. And then you have this witness who is a, you know, many witnesses who are in the camps who said well yes, I stole food from the people who looked like they were going to die because we're figuring they're going to die anyway and I wanted to survive. And of course, that's to sympathize with of course but yet it adds a different color just bad and good, like what is bad and good behavior. It makes it more human and more complicated. You know, in a way, if I had a colleague or, you know, in camps dying next to me and like they had a piece of bread they weren't eating, would I take it? Maybe. It's a terrible thing to contemplate. And I think this book is not fully focused on what would you do as a citizen. It really more like she went through it, the author, and, therefore, the narrator or as a teenager, like that lived at that time is just trying to understand like all the terrible things that happened during her fairly nice childhood and to young adulthood. I don't think she grapples with the question of what would she do. Go ahead.

[Crystal] Yes. It's interesting you brought up that scene in the museum where, yes, you have the very clear like these are bad, these aren't good guys, blah, blah. But I thought the other interesting part was that she describes the performance of people who are in the museum who has a walk along the wall and they see certain things. They're crying. They're sobbing. But there is that kind of emotional distance, right, because even though you're like crying and sobbing, you're still viewing this as a museum exhibition. And there is this kind of performative aspect of it, too, of being like very separated from that reality and knowing it's bad and crying over it. But then also like not having lived it, maybe, necessarily. I don't know.

[Frank] No, no. I think that's a very interesting point to bring up, very human thing. I mean, that's also at the core of what a lot of what I say is like, you know, so much is driven personality wise. Like, you know, with a kind of person you are -- Well, for example, in this book, you know -- Go ahead. What were you going to say? I heard a breath go --

[Crystal] No, no, no. You go ahead and like I'm going to change the direction of this a little bit. So you go ahead first.

[Frank] You were just gasping at my [inaudible]. No. The --

[Crystal] Oh no. I was patting the tarot cards, I think. It was this noise. The [inaudible] is back. I'm just kidding.

[Frank] The little noise. No, it's not. Talk about [inaudible]. That's terrible. What I was going to say about personality is that the thread that follows this book and this is really the main focus of the book, which is an interesting focus to take, is that she uses a real-life man in Chile who was a torturer of these dissidents, who was a real-life, you know, government person who tortured and killed these people. And she -- Which is an interesting choice to make. She doesn't follow it through the victims' stories even though you get victims' stories. She follows it through this guy who did the torturing because, as you said the last time, [inaudible] the man who tortured people. That's an interesting point to take because she clearly seems to feel that you have to delve into the evil. You can't just say, oh, it's over there. It's distant. She wants to really understand it. And lots of time in the book she sympathizes with him as a human being. But that's where I was thinking about personality is that this torturer only was revealed because he went into a magazine office in Chile in the late '80s and said, "I did this. I want to talk about this." And it was still during the Pinochet reign. And he was one of the few that revealed himself to be one of the torturers and said, "Yes, this did happen." Because people weren't sure if it really did happen, a lot of people. And what's interesting also that museum we talked about, the Remembrance Museum, there is no part devoted to the perpetrators because so many of them were not known. And other reasons. So he -- So what drove -- That's something about personality, what drove him as opposed to so many others to say I want to tell the truth about this. I want to, as it said in the book, bring the bad news and reveal it. And I think she's, the author, is fascinated with that, that he did that, that he actually -- And I think she sees that as a good part of him, like if he -- I think it's made clear we'll never quite have a, some people would be sympathetic to it, have an un-haunted life. He'll always be haunted by death and the death he caused. But, you know, here's the but, he came clean and revealed it and made it real. He took on that job to tell the story.

[Crystal] Yes. There are definitely, yes, what you were saying earlier about moments where she seems to sympathize with him. I think it makes it creepier. And I think that's also probably intentional, too, because if I recall correctly, there were some chapters where it opened up from I think his perspective as like a young recruit possibly. And then you see the change where -- Was it him or somebody else, a "prisoner" who seemed to like know a lot of things that were happening even though he was blindfolded and eventually recognizing that this person was going to get killed and all that kind of stuff. So you see, I guess, maybe the leeching away of that humanity, which is something that I've seen in other books, I think. Some people like it when it's a very clear like this person is evil. But I think it's scarier when this person's clearly very human and somebody who's very human and has like fallen, you know, or been led through this kind of situation and they have like lost their humanity in some ways. And that kind of evil is very frightening. Because I think, as you said earlier, it can happen to like all of us, right.

[Frank] Right. That's a really big debate with myself because I usually to myself say I would rather -- That is not frightening to me. To me, that's exactly what I want.

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] I want that sense of humanity because I don't want to believe in bad and good, fully bad and good because I think you'll just get nothing but disappointed. I do like that aspect of the book where he becomes more human and she seems to sympathize with the torturer. And I grapple with that because I personally like seeing that humanity rather than just believing someone's all good or all bad because I think you'll end up inevitably disappointed by that kind of dichotomy. So but I wonder if the grappling becomes from wonder if really in a public way rather than just a thoughtful way like I'm talking about when I think to myself, can we handle that. Like you just said, it's too terrifying or too painful or too unclear, like we almost want this bad and good because otherwise we wouldn't be able to get through the day. You know what I mean? Like if we realize that the capability, I mean, Fernandez has another part where she talks about the face, like a Twilight Zone episode where a man can put on different faces, depending on the context of what he needs in life. And she talks about how many faces can we have, like how many different kinds of faces. Like, you know, that torturer had a wife and children and went home to them. And I think at one point there's a part in the book, you know, that face he shows to them is different than the face he showed to the victims he killed. At one point he comes home andhis wife sees blood on his pants. And he knows that she knows exactly what it is and she just, her face changes but she doesn't say anything. And, you know, I mean, that's tough. That's hard.

[Crystal] Yes, if we can just say somebody's purely evil, they were born evil, that's all it is. it's so much easier just to write them off versus a situation where it's like, you know this could happen to us. It can happen to people that we love, people that we know, right. And they could be the man who tortured people and whatever and that's yes, very tough to kind of like hold in your head. It's scary.

[Frank] I mean, you can see how brutally hard it is even to make decisions about what to do. You know, it gets harder and harder to bring this man to justice the more human he becomes, you know. You know, he was -- Because he spoke, he told his story, he was protected by -- Who was he protected by? Well, he was protected and spearheaded out of the country and then lived in exile and this just occurred to me, and lived in exile in France. He never was brought to justice or trial, even after the dictatorship ended because he was, I guess he was an informant. He told the story, which people desperately needed to know because there was so many -- It's hard to imagine but so much of this was really just not known or not proven until he came forward, I think. I think he was the one that sort of that changed that.

[Crystal] Yes. There's that like [inaudible] like heart wrenching sections where I think they talked about the like the confirmation of the people who had just like disappeared and the confirmation that people got that they had in fact been killed because he was somebody who was like involved with that. That was very upsetting.

[Frank] Yes. Yes. I mean -- Oh, that -- Go ahead.

[Crystal] No, no.

[Frank] No, I was just thinking about just that finality of evil in lots of ways, like how there's no kitchen, no kitchen -- I remember what I was thinking when she said something like there's no kitchen anywhere in the world that's, you know, exempt from the blaze of history. And it reminded me of in the '70s, you know, that famous terrible picture of the little girl, little Vietnamese girl running down the road after a napalm attack in Vietnam. And she's naked because she ripped off her clothes because they were on fire from the napalm. And her siblings are running next to her. And she's just open armed and screaming. And it was -- I'm getting chills just thinking about it. It was like 1973 or 2. I remember vividly seeing that as a child, seeing that picture in the newspaper. And I never forgot it because it was also in my, now as I look back, on a sunny afternoon in the kitchen table in my really nice suburban home, that picture of that little girl who's probably just about my age. And I never forgot it. I didn't quite understand the context necessarily but I knew that was something that and I knew I think there was a war happening. So that sort of connection between when the reality of history invades that sort of domestic happiness. You know what I mean? I think she's so interested, Fernandez, in that juxtaposition between evil and just daily life and the blind eye we sometimes have to turn to it. You know? Like I don't think I thought too deeply about what that girl's life was about. I don't remember but I remember -- Maybe I did. It made an impact on me. Anyway, I'm sorry. Yes, I thought it related but it was interesting.

[Crystal] So one of the things that I didn't talk about on the last one but I'm kind of curious to see your thoughts about it. Like for the most part, I think other than the narrator, most of the dissidents are men and the torturers are men. But there was one scene where I think it was three people in the hotel or house or something. And there was like a scene where one of them was a woman dissident and she was, her dead body because they had all been shot. They, like she was undressed and pulled out. And the way that that scene was like written, I did have questions about like what is like Nona Fernandez saying about like women and like their treatments in the situation that is not really brought up so much but was very much so in that one particular scene, right. I'm just kind of curious about your thoughts.

[Frank] You mean because of the way her body was discovered?

[Crystal] Because they purposely, I believe, like stripped her, right, and just kind of like put her on display in a way, in a way that I felt like was not described for the men that were also killed, you know.

[Frank] I mean, yes, yes. I mean, the humiliations. Well, that does bring up a huge conversation about gender and like the humiliations of what it means, the different kinds of humiliation for each gender and what that message sends because the torturers certainly -- I just feel -- Again, it's that tension of like I'm sitting here on a podcast and talking about these terrible things that really happened because I was going to say that it's made clear that the men who are tortured, their genitals are destroyed. I mean, you know, so is that humiliation for a man, so to speak. And then the woman's naked vulnerable body being thrown into the street is humiliation for a woman. I mean, I don't know, it didn't jump out at me as a gender, as a -- Well, it didn't jump out at me because it seemed to be a part of just the general horror of it. But you could easily, as you point out, like really dig into and I think it's there. I think you're absolutely right that there is a difference in how they, and we by extension, would've looked at men and women in terms of what is humiliating or what is a message you can send or what is, what the different kinds of, that word again, "torture" for men and women would look like. You know? I agree with you. I remember the image and it was shocking. Oh, geez, this [inaudible] this book.

[Crystal] There was another interesting part to where it was a schoolteacher that was shocked by her, I think, ex-husband. Do you recall that scene?

[Frank] Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, which is not related to the politics of the time.

[Crystal] No. So the interesting thing about that is like if I recall correctly, I think that was a character from her previous book short story called "Space Invaders."

[Frank] Oh yes, yes, yes. Yes, I did read about that in her previous book she wrote about this period of time and some of the characters make appearances in this book, "The Twilight Zone," yes.

[Crystal] Yes. And I think that one like also does a similar thing with "The Twilight Zone" except it's the space invaders game. I just wonder if you had read that book as well.

[Frank] No. The video game. She mentions Space Invaders video game as something they play a lot in the '80s. But what about that story about the woman who was killed by her -- I think they were estranged, like they were separated, and he couldn't take it and killed her, which I thought you were relating to sort of gender relationship there.

[Crystal] Yes. No, I was just -- Well, yes, that's a good point. But I was just reminded that there was another female character, you know, because I was thinking it was mostly male characters. And I remembered that that another female character who went to like a, went through a bad end. I mean to read "Space Invaders" before this but I forgot.

[Frank] Well, what did you think -- Interesting, yes, because she does focus on this guy Andre the torturer. But what did you think about the narrative voice? Like she is a woman telling the story. The author -- The narrative voice is she's like a documentary filmmaker who's worked on documentaries about this period. And she's investigating like this torturer who as a teenager she saw the article about his admission of what he had done. And years later she wants to find him and connect and find out more about him and hear what he has to say about that period of time. [Inaudible] you don't know a lot about her but you know that she has a partner or had a partner and has a child.

[Crystal] Yes, there was that --

[Frank] [Inaudible] that voice --

[Crystal] Blurring of fact and fiction, right, because there's so many details that are very similar. I think even like Space invaders, even though that character was like in the story, I think it's also like maybe based on some people that she really knew and stuff. And I think there was this constant blurring of like fact and fiction that worked for her like with the integration of "Twilight Zone" and that -- The narrator's presence was sort of interesting [inaudible] and I don't really know what to make of it because there was one section where she refers to M which I think is her partner as like, you know, I've mentioned this person before and they're talking directly to the reader. I don't know. I don't know what to make of it, to be honest.

[Frank] I think, yes, her voice, the narrative voice is actually -- I think that's why it's sort of it's tougher to talk about. It doesn't allow you catharsis. It doesn't allow the reader to really -- She doesn't take you to a cathartic place. And the voice is very reporting and questioning. It basically says here's what I see what happened. Here's what I understand that happened. And here's the questions I have why. And that's it. No answers, really. Just -- And that -- We brought up another thing when I said I read it, it's like why am I reading this, why would someone read this. It's like is telling the story important, is that reason enough for its existence to have this known. And then it, you know, is it necessary to tell this which is a common thing we say, tell this story to relieve the trauma. And does it really relieve the trauma. We say that it does and maybe it does. And maybe, yes. I mean, to write the story for the public, I guess that's part of the voices of this period of time in terms of never forgetting and hopefully never to happen again.

[Crystal] Yes. I have a thought. What was my thought. I think what you were saying about catharsis, like I don't think, I agree. Like I don't feel like it's taking me to this catharsis point that maybe some of the previous books that we've read has done. But yes, I think the suggestion that maybe it's a catharsis for the writer is very interesting. I also think what you were saying about this like active remembrance in reference to the very early parts of the museum, right. And writing about things like this is -- What was -- Maybe there was this book, I think it was called "Committed to Memory" and I forget the author's name that talked about like slave ship icons and how that icon, I mispronounced, that icon is passed down and used as a way of ensuring that like oppressed peoples survive and that these kinds of things don't like happen again, right. And it's like really important to keep that memory alive. And I've seen that, too, with a lot of books about Japanese incarceration during the war and how especially as those people who actually lived experiences are kind of dying because of old age and stuff, the importance of keeping that memory alive and keeping those stories written. And you've seen like so many books like "Displacement," "They Called Us Enemy," that really like we are not free, other books that kind of really talk about that and kind of ensure that that memory is still here in the hopes that it does not repeat itself. Yes. I don't know. And I think maybe this is what it's trying to do for Nona Fernandez.

[Frank] Alright, well, I -- I could go on. I did, yes, but I think I'll leave it there. I think that ended it fine.

[Crystal] It's a very rich book that there's so much to be like pulled from. So I think it's a great book, discussion book for people who are looking for that.

[Frank] It's a tough one, though, for sure. Yes, there's a lot more we could say about this. And also the say about the idea of narratives of trauma. And it seems like we talk a lot about trauma these days, or at least I do, and what that means, like who tells the story, how do they tell, you know, how culpable is the storyteller. You know, you could say she's part of the oblivious, you know, populous that half knew, half didn't know what was happening. And is she herself culpable and does she herself feel guilty. Those are questions really interesting to ask. I mean, I thought about that like America's own past with slavery. It's like telling that story and what that narrative looks like, who tells it or how many voices can tell it and how would they tell it. I mean, it brought that up too as the more I thought about it, too, is like how we tell the story of the world in which we live in. I mean, what's interesting about Nona Fernandez is that she actually lived through the period she's writing this book about, rather than it being something farther in the past and the impact of that. I wonder how much impact that has. Anyway, did you read another book?

[Crystal] I did. So I was going to quickly just do like maybe a survey of some books. I did like a big push to finish all my reading goals for the end of the year 2021. And I think this episode, if we calculated correctly, will come out before the Schomburg Center's Black Comic Book Festival which is on January 13th to 14th and they have this exhibition on January 14th called "Boundless: Ten Years of Seeding Black Comic Futures." So I was going to like maybe briefly like survey some of the black comic books I have read recently that I really enjoyed and I'd recommend those kind of in anticipation of the festival.

[Frank] Are you doing it or are you not doing it? What do you mean, maybe, [inaudible] right now, right?

[Crystal] Oh, yes, yes. I mean, like I could go deeply into one of them if you wanted to but I feel like we've gone so deeply into "The Twilight Zone" which I enjoy. So the one I read most recently is called "Wash Day Diaries" by Jamila Rowser and Robyn Smith. That one is a great like slice of life comic. I think it's great for like older teens, adults. And that's going to come out this year. Some of the ones that I've read in the past are definitely already out that I would recommend are "Far Sector" by N.K. Jemisin and Jamal Campbell. That one is like Green Lantern stories, so if you like superhero books. I am not a huge fan of the Green Lantern superheroes but this one actually makes it really interesting. And it has this sort of [inaudible] detective vibe to it, which I always really love. And so that one's fantastic. Early last year, the book, "The Black Panther Party" by David F. Walker and Marcus Kwame Anderson came out. And it's a pretty like dense nonfiction graphic novel but I found myself like riveted throughout. And I think it really kind of sets out this very complicated legacy of "The Black Panther Party" that I don't think is always how they're taught in like classrooms. Because growing up, I didn't know a lot about them. But this book like provides so much information. And the art, I think, is done really well. And it does a good job of going between somewhere like dense materials, like historical stuff, then like these quick biography spotlights and then sort of a recounting of maybe things that did happen, sort of a retelling. And oh, Infinitum, infinitum, infinitum, I'm going to say "Infinitum" by Tim Fielder is another one. I never knew how to pronounce that but that's a sort of a super, not superhero, no, no, no. It is this kind of epic space book. It starts, I think, on Earth but then there's this guy who is like in [inaudible] and he basically through like infinity and sees Earth go through all of these like wars and different things. And it's really like fascinating and I think interesting. And I think Tim Fielder is probably, I think, he's doing some panels at the Schomburg Comic Book Festival. So I recommend that. [ Multiple Speakers ] It is and I registered. I think you just register for free online. I registered for a bunch of them.

[Frank] Is it publicly funded?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Oh, okay.

[Crystal] It's for the public.

[Frank] Would you put the link in our blog post?

[Crystal] Yes. Yes. I think it's -- [ Multiple Speakers ] With the event's [inaudible] link. I'm just going to list the rest of these because I feel like there's so many. "Run" by John Lewis, he passed but this is a continuation of the "March" Trilogy. "I'm a Wild Seed" by Sharon Lee De La Cruz who is somebody who is in the Bronx, talks about the Bronx. It's from the small publisher called Street Noise Books who's been doing like a lot of great comic books. "Wake" by Dr. Rebecca Hall and Hugo Martinez. A big portion of that book, well, maybe not a big portion, some portion of that book actually does happen in [inaudible] the Bryant Park Library. I guess we should call it the Stephen Schwarzman Building or --

[Frank] Forty-second street [inaudible].

[Crystal] We informally call it SASB. And a few great like teen ones, "Nubia" by L.L. McKinney and Robyn Smith who was also the artist for "Wash Day". "Julia" by [inaudible]. "What We Don't Talk About" by Charlot Kristensen but she talks about the experience of being in an interracial relationship and like the difficult decisions that this person has to make in regards to like my girl aggressions, all of that. There's like a bunch more but --

[Frank] You're making me anxious about all the books that you've read. So --

[Crystal] Well, this is like in the last whole year.

[Frank] I know. But it sounds impressive. And I think just anxiety is the word of the day, these days.

[Crystal] I will say in the past like when I have gone to the Black Comic Book Festival in person, pre-COVID and stuff, I mean there were like Jill Christian, [inaudible] was there. I think definitely Jamila Rowser, Robyn Smith, quite a few great comic creator Roye Okupe. So I definitely recommend folks attending the virtual festival. And then hopefully next year it will be in person again and people can go and meet and speak with their favorite creators. Oh, and to also mention that this year it is their tenth-year anniversary, which I think is huge accomplishment. I know that [inaudible] Tuckman [assumed spelling] who was a previous guest on the podcast, I know was doing a fantastic job, like organizing everything and is an amazing person. So --

[Frank] Yes. I want to get her back on. [Inaudible] we interviewed her and she was great.

[Crystal] She's so fantastic.

[Frank] I would love to. Oh, perfect segue because speaking of guests, we are going to have a guest next time, everybody. And I'll tease you with that. It's a New York Public Library staff member who is going to tell us all about what she does in the library. So I'm looking forward to that and I know you are too, Crystal.

[Crystal] yes.

[Frank] So it'll be nice to talk to some of our colleagues who we haven't seen in a while and see what they're up to and what they do and how they got to where they are. So I think everyone listening to this is, well I lost my language, is thrilled.

[Crystal] Speechless. Speechless from the excitement.

[Frank] I'm thinking of the right word and something got bollixed up because I couldn't think of the right word. Just thrilled to [ Multiple Speakers ] the New York Public Library employee. So we're going to do a little interview discussion with a colleague of ours next time. So stay tuned, friends. Thanks, everybody for listening. Oh, you have a tarot card.

[Crystal] Yes. Yes. Yes. Am I pulling just one for you and me?

[Frank] Just pull a card and we'll --

[Crystal] Just one?

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] For both of us?

[Frank] Just one. Yes. One and then we'll see what it means and see how it flies.

[Crystal] And then if you don't like it, we'll pull another one.

[Frank] No. I think we have to live with what we're told.

[Crystal] Okay. I'm going to pull this one. What does this one say? Six of pentacles. Okay, let me look in my booklet. Again, this is the modern witch tarot cards. Okay, six of pentacles. Oh, here we go.

[Frank] Six of pentacles.

[Crystal] Oh, interesting. Okay. It says, "It's all about the money. Maybe you've had a stream of good luck and you're rolling in it and relishing this newfound wealth. Be generous but also be careful not to fall into bad spending habits. Or maybe you're struggling and dependent on others for your revenue. You should see a good windfall soon, so use it wisely. Either way, be conscious of your attitude towards money and be wary you're not supporting mentally unhealthy habits."

[Frank] What the heck are pentacles. I know it means five. But what is it --

[Crystal] Isn't it the little like the little star symbol? It's that I think. Those are pentacles, maybe?

[Frank] Penta is five, right.

[Crystal] Yes. So I think it's just like a little star [inaudible].

[Frank] [Inaudible] star. Okay. Well, that's interesting. I mean, that could go in lots of directions but the first thing I thought was that, what --

[Crystal] Oh, I think it just means all our listeners should spend their money wisely for 2022. That's what I got from it.

[Frank] Fine. Fine.

[Crystal] [Inaudible] but you were going to go down the very like deep --

[Frank] Why, because I'm so deep? No, it just made me think about like work and what one, we have to work but, you know, I work because I mean I never thought about money. I mean, clearly working in library. But, I mean, [inaudible] the library I mean, like you know it's working in the nonprofit situation. And I love that and I do love the idea. You know, of course nothing is free because of taxes and things like that, that the library is a free place and I love that. I love what I do and I love being on the frontline and, you know, I have to pay the bills, kids. But, you know, hey, I'm happy I can. I'm doing what I like. So [inaudible] about money, I don't think I'm going to get crazy extravagant any time soon.

[Crystal] I mean, I will say a library card is a great investment. I've saved so much money just from like checking out eBooks and stuff because I think when I was younger, I would buy a lot of books and that was so much of like the money that I had [inaudible]. I used to be on this site called paperback swap. This was like very old, I think, where you would just exchange paperbacks with other people on the Internet. Yes.

[Frank] Oh wow.

[Crystal] Now we have eBooks. And so that's --

[Frank] Anyway, we do indeed. The library is a wonderful place. And --

[Crystal] A wise investment.

[Frank] Well, there you go. [Inaudible] pentacles [inaudible].

[Crystal] Six. No, was it five? Was it six?

[Frank] Oh, six, you're right, because pentacle is five pointed. We could sum it up --

[Crystal] No, but there is a five of there's like an ace of pentacles --

[Frank] I confused my terms but we can leave it as that card, pulling that card means that the library is a wise investment.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And I'm sticking to it. Okay, well I'm going to get myself a deck of tarot cards, those artistic little fun things. I think it's sort of fun.

[Crystal] Well, you can make your own, Frank.

[Frank] I could.

[Crystal] Okay, that face said no. That face said that wasn't a good idea.

[Frank] I could but I also like --

[Crystal] You could.

[Frank] And look into the art.

[Crystal] That's true.

[Frank] What do you mean? I can look up how to make your own. I could do that. I meant to get -- You know what? My goal for the next --

[Crystal] Commission an artist from the Jefferson Market community and oh, you should do a Jefferson Market tarot card. Yes.

[Frank] I'm like, that's such a great idea.

[Crystal] You should do it.

[Frank] The tower.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] All sorts of things.

[Crystal] If there are any artists that are interested, email Frank.

[Frank] Well, not yet. I'm getting the place ready to open but it's a great idea because I love artists. I do. You know, I think [inaudible] artist -- Oh yes, I know many. Great idea and I like your little, you know, activity that you --

[Crystal] If you sell it, I want to cut of the profits.

[Frank] Oh, there you go with money. You already thinking about wise investments, not the library so much but your own personal gain. You're like, I want a cut of the profits. You're like, money's crystal. Where's my cut?

[Crystal] I have all these [inaudible] ideas [inaudible].

[Frank] Like wow, [inaudible] making the cash. Money making Crystal.

[Crystal] But you should do it. I support this endeavor.

[Frank] I do too. And I already saw it as a display. As we do, we can go on and on but it's interesting that you brought up this tarot thing because I did it and I mentioned this before, I think. I don't know. I don't even know. Tarot card online class with this glamour gal tarot card reader who has written books that in the library, Sasha Graham and I want to do more with her. I just -- You know, without ascribing to any belief system per se, I like the idea of I think what starts the tarot card interesting to me is the art of them and then like we said, the data or the meaning of them can be translated in lots of different ways. And its just more data for your life and personality like astrology or like, you know, advice a friend even gives. It's just like, oh, interesting to know. Almost like literary in theory, like it's almost putting a literary critique on your life to see like well, okay, what does that mean. Like it was easy for me to say like we'll make this five, six pentacles. The library is a wise investment. Then you turned revealingly into a personal profit-making venture, which says a lot about both of us. That's all we're going to do. Your giggles will lead us out. Thank you, everybody for listen and join us next time when we have a special guest. See you then.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The librarian Is In, the podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play or send us an email at podcast@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.