Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In! Frank and Crystal chose their own books this week. If after listening you're still craving more Frank and Crystal (of course you are!), check out their appearance last week at The Forum At St. Bart's where they talk about some picks for summer reading and play the guessing game!

Crystal's read this week was:

Quincredible 1: Quest To Be the Best! written by Rodney Barnes; illustrated by Selina Espiritu; colored by Kelly Fitzpatrick; lettered by AW's Tom Napolitano

Invulnerability is a pretty useless superpower if you've only got a 100 lb. frame to back it up. That's what Quinton Wests's life became when he went from small guy who got beat up to small guy who can't get hurt after the meteor shower dubbed 'The Event' gifted him the power of invulnerability but no other powers to compliment it. But there's more to Quin than meets the eye, and after some encouragement from his new mentor, Quin realizes that he can use his quirky hobby of creating Rube Goldberg devices to outsmart the opposition. But being a hero paints a target on your back, and Quin's got to risk it all to join the ranks of the superheroes he looks up to. It's a good thing he can take a punch. (Publisher summary)

Frank's read this week was a compelling book about aging, beauty, and society's reaction to women's faces as they age:

Face: One Square Foot of Skin  by Justine Bateman

Based on "older face" experiences of the author and those of dozens of women and men she interviewed, the book presents the reader with the many root causes for society’s often negative attitudes toward women’s older faces. In doing so, Bateman rejects those ingrained assumptions about the necessity of fixing older women’s faces, suggesting that we move on from judging someone’s worth based on the condition of her face. (Publisher summary)

 

 

 

Frank surprised Crystal by choosing their next book club pick—don't forget to take out your copy from your local library!

The Chosen and the Beautiful by Nghi Vo

Jordan Baker grows up in the most rarefied circles of 1920s American society—she has money, education, a killer golf handicap, and invitations to some of the most exclusive parties of the Jazz Age. She’s also queer and Asian, a Vietnamese adoptee treated as an exotic attraction by her peers, while the most important doors remain closed to her. But the world is full of wonders: infernal pacts and dazzling illusions, lost ghosts and elemental mysteries. In all paper is fire, and Jordan can burn the cut paper heart out of a man. She just has to learn how. (Publisher summary)

 

 

Finally, were you able to guess Crystal's ASMR object this week?

 

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to "The Librarian is In," the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] Hi, Crystal.

[Crystal] Hello.

[Frank] How are you?

[Crystal] I'm well.

[Frank] Yeah? Good. I think we all are, or hopefully, trying to be. I have a quote.

[Crystal] All right, go ahead.

[Frank] I have a quote I want to read to you, that's sort of, I keep thinking about, because it sort of synthesizes what I constantly talk about on the podcast -- I have mentioned several times. It's a quote by Jeanette Winterson. Have you ever read books by her? Oranges --

[Crystal] Yeah, I think I read "The Passion," or something.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] "The Passion." "Orange is Not the Only Fruit," she wrote. That whole -- maybe that series that famous writers riffed on Shakespeare stories. Now I can't remember the name of it. She wrote a version of "The Winter's Tale," which I loved. Anyway, Jeanette Winterson said, "For me, language is a freedom. As soon as you have found the words with which to express something, you are no longer incoherent. You are no longer trapped by your own emotions, by your own experiences. You can describe them; you can tell them. You can bring them out of yourself and give them to somebody else. That is an enormously liberating experience, and it worries me that more and more people are learning not to use language. They're giving in to the banalities of the television media and the -- and Shrinking their vocabulary, shrinking their own way of using this fabulous tool that human beings have refined over so many centuries, into this extremely sensitive instrument. I don't want to make it crude. I don't want to make it into shopping-list language. I don't want to make it into simply an exchange of information. I want to make it into subtle, emotional, intellectual, freeing thing that it is, and that it can be." I love that. It's sort of, what I talk about, like, it battles incoherence, and you can describe your experience, it could be liberating. And I always mean, really describe your experience, and not with possibly, the banalities you might pick up from whatever source. And I think reading, of all the media, even though of course you could be listening to something online or on TV and be inspired, but in sustained reading and concentration gives you that language best of all. So it's just a little shoutout to reading and giving you that language. It's important to me, even though I'm not that great at doing it. It's a lifelong process.

[Crystal] I had two thoughts when you read that quote, which I hadn't heard before. First thought was, it reminded me of what you were saying when we went to St. Barts virtually. I think -- was it yesterday or the day before -- and how you talked about, like, how reading gives you, kind of, language to use. And I mean, you did it so much more eloquently. And my second thought was, how dare she? As a "Real Housewives" franchise stan --

[Frank] Exactly.

[Crystal] And a TV watcher, how dare she? But no. No, I really do think that it's kind of wonderful, like, reading does give you that kind of language to use.

[Frank] I mean, actually --

[Crystal] That's really important.

[Frank] That's a terrific example. I mean, when I once had Bravo for free, I didn't -- I watched -- I was obsessed with -- this is 10 years ago -- with "Real Housewives of Orange County." And the minute I lost Bravo, I just forgot about it. But like, I didn't hustle to by cable, because of watching it. But that's a really good example in some ways, because from what I've seen, like, when the housewives fight, it is -- it does sometimes reduce to banalities.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Of experience. Like, the fights that one can have as -- on a show like that are fun, because they're sort of primal. But the language that's used sometimes is definitely missing something. I think when Ashley, just to keep going with this, when one of the housewives, Ashley, nails another housewife, it becomes a sensation. Because it's actually putting real language to real experience. You know what I mean? I mean, when they're like, "Woops, she called Erika Jayne out," or whoever --

[Crystal] So you have been watching. No --

[Frank] You know, I'm so -- that actually really relates to the book. I'm going to talk about it. Like, it's like I'm aware of the culture, I suppose. And I'm sort of fascinated with anything that's popular in culture, even if I don't partake in it. I do read about it, yeah.

[Crystal] But I was going to add to that, like, I do think it's interesting how with a lot of those fights, like, it's -- sometimes it's centered on, because people are missing the nuances of language, so people misinterpret and like, misunderstand each other. Where if you just had more clarity in what you were saying and trying to express --

[Frank] Well --

[Crystal] You wouldn't be having these fights, right?

[Frank] Exactly. It's just sort of like, you know, someone throwing their drink, like, "I'm done. I am done with this." And then you're like, "Done with what, exactly? Like, what is -- what are you talking about?" Or it's like, "No, you didn't go there. Oh, no, you did not go there." And then, you know, it's like, "Go where? Where did I go?" It's important, I think, I mean, it's all we've got. It's like, I think I said this the last time. Like, we're human organisms, and we're all human organisms, all of us. And we have language to describe that experience. And that's in the broad sense, it, what else do we have? I mean, that's what the news and 24-7 online stuff is all language being thrown at us. And whether we buy it, reject it, incorporate it, inhale it, it's up to us. We have to have the courage to decide what's right for us. I'm totally talking about the book I'm going to read. I tend to do that. I think I just want to make everything meaningful.

[Crystal] Well, I think we did a good job of going from highbrow to lowbrow. So now --

[Frank] That's what we do here, darling. Books, culture. Highbrow to lowbrow, the Crystal and Frank story.

[Crystal] Yes, I am definitely lowbrow.

[Frank] No, you're not.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I'm like, we're all over. We all have our -- that's a good word -- a good analysis, like, what is high/low? I mean, why is it low? So like, the "Real Housewives," because it's not hard to understand?

[Crystal] As long as we're not middlebrow. I think that's the place to [inaudible]

[Frank] Suburban. Like the John Cheever stories I talked about the other day, it's like, middlebrow, suburban angst, ennui. But oh, I'm going to tease you.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] Next time we meet, we are going to discuss -- we tend to discuss a book we both read, right? And I really came upon a -- came across a book I would love to read next, and would love to read with you. So I'm going to surprise you at the end of this with that title. And hopefully you won't, like a housewife, go after me in fury, and flip a table or something.

[Crystal] We'll see how I feel about it.

[Frank] Right. It'll be raw, real emotion. Our listeners will get raw and real emotion. So I'm suppose -- I suppose you've read something this week.

[Crystal] I did; I did.

[Frank] That you'd like to discuss with us?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Or would you rather I go -- we always do this. This is the dance of who goes first, in order length. It just should morph into natural conversation, like we're sitting and having coffee, which I have.

[Crystal] Do you want me to go first? Do you feel like you always go first?

[Frank] Yeah, I do. That was a subtle slam. But yeah, in that case [inaudible]

[Crystal] Slam received.

[Frank] Go ahead.

[Crystal] So I think like, this [inaudible] I was -- I think I wanted to talk about "The Lesson," by Cadwell Turnbull. But I actually end up reading, like, a comic book series. And I was just like, "You know what? I love this comic book series so much, I want to talk about this."

[Frank] Wait. What's "The Lesson," by Cadwell Turnbull?

[Crystal] It's like this sci-fi story, where -- I don't want to talk -- I want to wait and save it for like, maybe the next [inaudible]

[Frank] Oh.

[Crystal] Essentially, like, a ship comes down and, like, maybe like, tries to colonize a city. But sci-fi, so I was like, "Oh, okay, interesting."

[Frank] That's okay. All right, well, save it.

[Crystal] We'll save it. But the series I wanted to talk about is actually a teen superhero comic book series. We haven't done one of those yet, right? So it's "Quincredible," volumes 1 and 2. The first volume is called, "The Quest to be the Best," and we have that in our collection. It was out in 2019. The second one is "The Hero Within," which came out last month. And that was the one I just read. The author is Rodney Barnes, and the artist is Selina Espiritu. Barnes is a screenwriter producer. I don't know if you know of his name, but he wrote for "The Boondocks," "American Gods," I think, "Everybody Hates Chris," as well as a bunch of other --

[Frank] Oh, I love, "Everybody Hates Chris."

[Crystal] Right?

[Frank] It's hilarious.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I loved it.

[Crystal] And yeah, so he has a lot of ties, like Hollywood and television, which is very appropriate to our conversation. Espiritu has done the art for, like, "Brave Chef Brianna." Have you -- probably not, right? It's from Boom Studios, and sort of, really cute, middle-grade comic, which I also would highly recommend. And this comic, "Quincredible" is from Oni Press/Lion Forge, if you know of those comics publishers. They kind of merged, maybe a couple years ago. And now they're just like, big video subsidiary called Polarity. One of the reasons why I like this comic is because it's set in this world that was created by Lion Forge. And Lion Forge has this mission of sort of uplifting underrepresented voices in comics, which I think is really important. And they also have these, like, really age focus imprints like Clubhouse and Roar. Roar for teens, Clubhouse for kids. And so they created this superhero world called Catalyst Prime. Or it's like an imprint, I guess. And they have several, like, different superheroes in it, and can -- like, "Noble," "Superb," "Excel," "Summit." And I like the fact that --

[Frank] Hey, wait, wait, wait. What? What was that?

[Crystal] So they're different superhero book series. They're part of the Catalyst Prime imprints.

[Frank] I mean, sci-fi fantasy readers will totally get you, but I'm like -- talk about language. You just like, "Yeah, the soluble, and the slope, and the tungdoms series." And I'm like, "Okay."

[Crystal] So "Noble," "Superb," "Excel," and "Summit." So they're superheroes.

[Frank] Oh, "Noble," "Superb," "Excel," and "Summit."

[Crystal] And there's a few --

[Frank] They're all very, like, high-falutin or -- not aspirational but sort of top-of-the-heap labels.

[Crystal] Well, sure, yes.

[Frank] Anyway --

[Crystal] But I mean, it's -- I appreciate, like, this is a superhero universe that's outside of the DC and Marvel one, because --

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] We are so bombarded with that, right? And I like that, you know, with DC and Marvel, I feel like what they have been doing is trying to bring in more, like, underrepresented characters, characters of color, women. But I like that with Lion Forge, from the beginning they were like, "This is what we're going to do." And this is a very, like, diverse superhero world, and that's kind of built into the structure of that. So "Quincredible" is more of a teen book, and it follows this one teen boy named Quinton West. He lives in New -- well, that's where you get the Quincredible, right?

[Frank] Right now I was like, when you first said that I was like, "Let me guess -- his name is Quinton." Okay, Quincredible, that's cute.

[Crystal] And he -- he's a enhanced superhero, so I think this follows, kind of, the typical like, superhero thing, where there was a asteroid. Because of the asteroid, he has these sort of, enhanced powers, I think similar to Miss Marvel. But really, he is just, like, very normal kid in high school, who is dealing with bullies, crushes, parental pressure. His power is invincibility.

[Frank] Oh, is that all?

[Crystal] So this book is set in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. And because of it, Quin's community is undergoing a lot of turmoil. And after he witnesses a riot, he like, realizes that he has to use his power to help save his community. And then like, you know, lots of superhero stuff happens. He comes in, saves the day, blah, blah. But what I really, really enjoy about the series is that Quin has to, as a teen, a young, black teen boy, he has to reckon with this really difficult question of, what does it mean to be a superhero, when the system you're trying to protect is broken, and oppressing black youth like yourself, right? And I appreciate that the answer is not really cut-and-dried. The villain is not somebody that you would necessarily expect, and offers some complexity in how they are addressing issues of violence within the community. And it's a lot like -- one of my favorite characters, even though I guess, he was evil, Michael B. Jordan's Killmonger character in "Black Panther." So I think the book is really reflective of what's happening in our society, and engages in conversation about social issues in a way that doesn't come off as didactic or condescending. So I think it's great for teens, for sure, and adults. The second book kind of deals more with like, New Orleans voodoo, and Quin has to, kind of, help protect historical lands. And his mentor, this superhero, glow, has a bigger part in that story.

[Frank] Does he live in New Orleans?

[Crystal] He lives in New Orleans, the character does.

[Frank] Oh, so it's set in New Orleans.

[Crystal] It's set in New Orleans, post Hurricane Katrina.

[Frank] I love New Orleans, yeah. I never -- we went there for ALA in our Library Association, like, the year after Katrina.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Were you there?

[Crystal] Oh, the stories, the stories.

[Frank] [inaudible] on -- were you there, really?

[Crystal] Yes. I was, yes. Did you not see me on the streets?

[Frank] Yeah, 13 or 14 years ago, but it was such a pleasure, because everyone was so grateful for having a conference back. But it was also painful to see some of the damage. But then New Orleans is just amazing town.

[Crystal] Yes. I'm almost --

[Frank] Anyway, so it's set in New Orleans. That's a sell for me.

[Crystal] I almost got run over by one of those mounted policemen on horses. I remember that.

[Frank] Oh, really?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Troublemaker, troublemaker.

[Crystal] But --

[Frank] Sorry.

[Crystal] No worries. What was I going to say? Oh, the -- that -- this --

[Frank] So voodoo --

[Crystal] Oh, the voodoo, yes. The biggest thing that I liked about this book is that, like, it's really funny and fun. So I think people who really enjoy the Spiderman "Into the Spider-verse" movie would really like this. Quin is very much like Miles Morales -- super likable, kind of like, floundering in some ways, but really trying to figure out how to do what's right and how to protect his family. I like that the parents in his family are like, very present. And they also have their own, kind of, storyline, where they're grappling with this idea of their son, who's like, meant for bigger things, when they just want to keep him at home and safe. They can't really do that. And the art is really great. I think the emotional moments are captured really well. They don't feel false. He really does act and look like, and has the expression of a teen who, you know, has to like, save his family, and is dealing with the emotional impact of that. And I also -- the other thing that I really like about it is that the artist is really good about drawing the clothes of the characters, especially outside of their superhero, kind of, uniforms. I think that's a weakness that I see sometimes with maybe, some DC and Marvel comics, where you spend so much effort on this, sort of, artistic representation of superheroes and their costumes, but when they're out of them, it's just like, T-shirt and jeans. Whereas, I think --

[Frank] Good.

[Crystal] She sets it in a fresh kind of way that like -- they dress the way teens I see dress, in kind of a cool style. And I think that's another entry point for young people. But yeah, it's a great series, so much fun, very enjoyable.

[Frank] It sounds Quincredible.

[Crystal] Are you going to read it?

[Frank] No. I mean, maybe. Actually, I like the detail about the clothes, actually. I mean, superheroes, I don't know, I've never really got into. I mean, I was a young kid when "Star Wars" started, and I was like, shrug.

[Crystal] That's not -- those aren't superheroes.

[Frank] Like, I didn't -- I wasn't -- I went to see it, but I wasn't like, "Oh my god." I know, but it's like, sci-fi -- you -- this has been a longstanding thing. But --

[Crystal] Have you read --

[Frank] Just that detail about the clothes sounded intriguing. I'd sort of, like to see it just for that, actually. And then, you know, it's the -- I don't know -- it's not snobby; it's not. It's just what appeals and what doesn't appeal. But like, it's so true that when I do try something, oftentimes I could be like, "This is so much fun." I never continued "Harry Potter." Gwen tried, but --

[Crystal] Wait, how far did you get in "Harry Potter"? >>Frank: One. I know the first one is more expository, but I just was like, "I get it."

[Crystal] I'm not sure -- I read almost all of them except for the last one, because I didn't want the series to end. So it's been 10 years.

[Frank] You never read the -- you could keep yourself from it?

[Crystal] Well, I -- no, I read all except for the last one, because I didn't want the story to end. And so it's just been 10 years of me telling my friends, like, "No spoilers." They think it's kind of unfair.

[Frank] Wait. And you still have not read the last one.

[Crystal] No, I haven't, because I don't want the series to end, Frank. And if I don't read it, 9it will never end. That's how it works.

[Frank] That's actually fascinating, that you can --

[Crystal] I -- the same for "The Walking Dead" comic book series. I still have not read the last couple, and --

[Frank] Wait.

[Crystal] Also Bill Willingham's "Fable" series, I still have not read Volume 22, which is the last one. Because if i don't read the last one, it will never end.

[Frank] That's an incredible insight into you. So let me ask you, do you think -- do you know that you'll read it eventually, organically? It'll just happen, or you will never read it?

[Crystal] I think for "Harry Potter," I want to go back from the beginning and read the whole thing, because it's been so long that I've forgotten a lot of details of what happens. But I think that a lot of tragic things happen in the last volume, and I don't think I'm emotionally ready for it. And maybe I will be, when I'm 60 or older.

[Frank] Me, well --

[Crystal] But right now I'm not.

[Frank] So you don't literally know -- so you didn't see the movie of the last one either. So you just don't -- you really --

[Crystal] I've not seen the last -- it was like, a two-part movie or something.

[Frank] Yeah, so you really don't know what happened. I don't know, because you don't know.

[Crystal] Okay, I don't --

[Frank] A little bit, I guess.

[Crystal] So I accidentally did stumble upon some, like, fan art. And I did have a moment where I was like, "This character is drawn in a way with their eyes closed, and flowers around them. Are -- what's happening?" And I think I guessed as to maybe some character deaths. But you know what? It has not been confirmed, so it's not true.

[Frank] I mean, you're slightly insouciant in your tone, but it's -- if -- I cannot believe the restraint that -- of a fan --

[Crystal] But you --

[Frank] That you could actually -- I guess it's always in the future, the pleasure is coming. It's coming -- >>Crystal: I like how you see this as restraint, and not as delusion. Because I think I'm in a deluded world, where I'm trying to protect myself.

[Frank] I get it. Well, see, that's language [inaudible]

[Crystal] Then no horrible things. Yes.

[Frank] It's not restraint. It's just, -- it's, well --

[Crystal] I'm just like, too emotionally invested.

[Frank] I was going to get a little inappropriate [inaudible] What?

[Crystal] I said I'm just too emotionally invested in that series.

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] I just don't want to cry, and I know I'm going to cry. And I just --

[Frank] I don't want to cry.

[Crystal] Right? Right. I mean, I cry for a lot of things, but I think I even, reading the "Divergent" series, like, the last book of that series, I cried on the train reading it. And I don't think I should've cried for that, but --

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] "Harry Potter" will definitely make me weep.

[Frank] That's an amazing insight, folks. I really think so. Intriguing. Okay, let's -- we'll think about that. The deluded restraint of Crystal Chen -- a four-part miniseries.

[Crystal] Oh, boy.

[Frank] "The Deluded Restraint of Crystal Chen." That's the name of the book, folks. There you go. Well, darling, so you want to hear about my book?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Do you know who Justine Bateman is?

[Crystal] The sister of the other Bateman? What's his name -- Justin?

[Frank] Jason Bateman.

[Crystal] Jason, okay.

[Frank] Justine Bateman was on a TV show called "Family Ties" in the '80s.

[Crystal] Yes, okay.

[Frank] With Michael Fox.

[Crystal] I love that.

[Frank] Do you know that show? You were not around --

[Crystal] I used to watch it, and I really loved -- think I saw, maybe, some of the reruns, but I really loved Michael J. Fox in it.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So Justine Bateman was a teenager in that show, and she's written two books. She doesn't act anymore. She produces, writes, whatever, directs. But she wrote two books, one about fame, and one about sort of, aging and beauty. And I -- I've read both, but what's interesting is that -- her context, in terms of the world. Like, her first book on fame, which the subtitle is, "The Hijacking of Reality," you know, she was on this TV show for seven years. That's where her primary fame comes from. But in context, like, back in the '80s, like, there were very few TV stations. You know, cable was not doing original content yet. There was no internet. And like, an episode of "Family Ties" could attract, like, 55 million viewers, like, half the viewership of the country. I mean, now, like, if a TV show on TV gets a million or two million people, it's considered a hit. So like, the sort of, widespread fame of a limited amount of people was huge. And what she writes about, Justine Bateman, in "Fame," her first book, is not about fame as it is, like, for people like Meryl Streep, that lasts forever or is a lifelong thing. It's that -- when you get fame, and then it goes away. And when you lose that fame, when you -- when you're famous, can walk into a room and change the climate of that -- an attitude of that room, where everything stops and becomes about you, to where when that's gone, you can walk into a room and be invisible. And it's a very interesting -- I found -- I find the subject of fame, and beauty, and aging, I mean, I find them all very interesting, especially in the public, when you're in the public eye. So but the book that -- her newest book is called, "Face." And the subtitle is, "One Square Foot of Skin." And what inspired her to write it is sort of interesting, because I remember when this happened, like, 10 years or so. She's like, 55 now. So like, when she was in her early 40s, and writing the book on fame, she decided to google herself, which she said was a big mistake. And when she wrote her name, "Justine Bateman, autocorrect filled in the first hit as, "looks old." And then she said, "All right, I clicked on it." And she found forums devoted to talking about how old she looks. Because she was famous in the '80s as a teenager in "Family Ties." So in her early 40s, she -- and I remember then, like, 10, 15 years ago, stumbling across a gossip site or something, and showing a picture, like, clearly taken with a telephoto lens, of Justine Bateman. And you know, wrinkly neck, and like, you know, just looking "old," in quotes. And my first reaction was like, "Oh, dear." Like, "Oh, boy." And then I thought about it more, which is key, to think. And I thought, "Well, good for her." Like, cut up her face, and that's -- and then it became a difficult thing to say, "That's aging -- natural aging." But then also, you want to say, "Well, she must've done something bad to herself, like smoke, or drink, or something terrible. Because that's bad aging," right? You know, so it was this conversation in my own head at the time, about saying, "Good for you. That's who you are. You're you. You didn't, like, pull and tuck your face. But also, did you just age badly, too, or is it bad lighting, or whatever. I mean, because now we have a million outlets that can show gossip 24-7. So that was the inspiration to write the book, because she -- Justine Bateman went to these forums, and read about how everyone thought she was so old and ugly, and took it in, and felt like maybe they're right. And then she said, what she does personally is, starts thinking about, well, what's really bothering her? Like, what's really happening here? Trying to figure out what she's -- what her root fear or root upsetness is. And then she decided, "I like what I look like." I mean, she personally always liked, like, European actresses like Anna Magnani, Jeanne Moreau, like, actresses who were women and looked like middle-aged women, and were revered in Europe and America. But -- so she liked it, so she decided it was fine with her. But then she wanted to really analyze what it is about a woman aging, and people feeling like they can comment on it. And then she went on to the -- her next topic, which was, you know, back in the '70s and '80s, like, getting a facelift. I remember as a child, like, my mom and her friends talking about facelifts. Like, it was a new thing, like, to get, for middle class. And everyone was like, "Are you going to do it? Should we do it?" And like, you know, that kind of thing. And there's a movie, actually, with Elizabeth Taylor called "Ash Wednesday," that came out. I remember the commercials when I was a kid. And Elizabeth Taylor was 40 at the time, but she was playing, like, a 55-year-old. So she had old-age makeup, and then they had actual footage in the movie of a facelift, that was not Elizabeth Taylor, but like, and that is the drawing point to go see, like, cutting a face and stuff. And then of course, it emerges as Elizabeth Taylor at 40, looking gorgeous. And anyway, so Justine Bateman discusses, like, when it became, from, when -- "Should I get a facelift?", to "When?" Like, "Oh, you're 20. Like, when are you going to get your first filler, or first Botox injection?" Or you know, "Why are you going to maintain --" what do they call it? Prenovation? Not -- like, something like, before you really -- before you, in quotes, "really need it," you start getting treatments, just to sort of maintain and segue from 20 into 40, but still look 25, so-called. So it's like, not like, when you're going to get a -- if you're going to get a facelift, but like, when are you going to get something done?" Period. And then she started, it's like, "Why is that even a thing?" Like, why is that a concern? Like, maybe it's just about performers, but I -- obviously, if you look at statistics, like, you know, procedures are huge, and -- a huge industry. I mean, the cosmetics industry is huge. So the book, "face," by Justine Bateman is basically though, 47 short, short fictional stories, like, three-page stories that are based on her own experience. And also interviews and discussions she had with like, a couple-of-dozen acquaintances, colleagues, friends, and put those experiences into these stories. So it's not an -- even though it's cataloged in nonfiction, it's actually these, sort of, short vignette stories on the experience of aging and perception of aging, and what it feels like to age. And what it feels like to be young, what it feels like to, quote, "lose your beauty." And that's an interesting thing, too, like, what is beauty? I mean, I actually was listening to an interview with Justine Bateman and an author of a book called, "Survival of the Prettiest," which is another book. And they said some interesting things about beauty. Because I think one of the things they said was, like, the object of beauty, like, what we think is beautiful is always debated. Like, we always debate, like, what is beautiful? But the experience of beauty is not debatable. We've all experienced something -- a physical reaction to something beautiful -- that we would consider beautiful. A surge, like a, you know, whatever -- again, language -- what that experience is, we all know it. And it's interesting how, when we see something beautiful, we have it -- we have words for like, knockout, or breathtaking, or ravishing like, very physically serious words, you know. Because it is an experience, but what the object is, is up for debate. So in "Face," this need to fix an aging face is the issue. So why does a face have to be fixed? Why does a woman's face have to -- particularly, let's say -- have to be fixed? Like, she makes a good point, because it's like, one might say, "I want to get my face fixed, because I'm afraid I won't get the promotion at the job. If I look too old, I won't find a partner. I won't be loved. I won't have resources that I need. I have --" Being young, sort of, opens up the potential of the world to you. And sort of, to maintain that illusion is fearful. But Justine Bateman says, "Okay, but do you think that with that facelift or that procedure, that fear will go away?" Will it really go away? Like, if you -- are you just putting a band-aid over a problem, or rather, should you just dig into that wound, clean it out, and move on? Meaning, face your fear, rather than do a quick fix of something on your face. And as we were talking earlier, like -- there's a quote from Ruth Gordon. Do you know Ruth Gordon? She was --

[Crystal] No, I don't think so.

[Frank] She was actually an interesting -- it relates a little bit. Because she was a longtime writer, and playwright, and actress on Broadway. But she became super famous in the late '60s in a movie called "Rosemary's Baby." And she was, you know, 70. And then she became truly famous, and she was in "Harold and Maude." I mean, she was in movies that were built around her. She was a famous woman, but she was older. Way older, like 70. And she had a quote where she said about society, if you're not beautiful, if you don't have beauty, you need courage. And she's -- clearly took that to heart, like, as a self-described not, quote, "beautiful" person, Ruth Gordon was, she's considered herself. She had to be courageous. And I think when Justine Bateman says, you know, instead of the quick fix of a Botox shot, like, think about what your fears are that are impelling you to get that shot, and that does take courage. I mean, it takes a sense of self, I guess, to look at yourself, into yourself to see why you're doing what you're doing, and to discover what motivates you. Like, do you really want to be motivated by just fear in that case? I mean, if a snake is slithering towards you, you want to be motivated by fear, not principle. But when it comes to cutting your face up, I would sort of want to be motivated by a principle, and face, and just rip the wound -- rip the band-aid off and face the fear. But that's scary. So this book, these 47 vignettes, run the gamut of older, younger -- so what do you think about what I just said? Like, what are your thoughts on beauty and aging? I mean, you're a young woman.

[Crystal] Well, I like that you are definitely going to the celebrity memoir path with this book.

[Frank] Well, you opened the gate with Mariah Carey.

[Crystal] And -- oh, you can't go there.

[Frank] There's no going back.

[Crystal] No, I mean, like, it -- one of the things that -- I mean, I haven't read this book, obviously. It sounds really interesting. But it did make me think about an issue that sometimes I see crop up in books. And I'm thinking of like, a teen book in particular, where I feel like oftentimes what happens is, through the book -- and I think there is value in it, for sure. There is empowerment in it. There is this, kind of, push to sort of expand our notions of what beauty is, right? So beauty should include, like, fat characters, right? And for sure, I agree with that. But I also feel like, you know, I wonder how much good that actually is doing, because through those kinds of conversations, you're still, kind of, positing that beauty is one of the most important things in our society.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Rather than, sort of, devaluing beauty and replacing that with empathy, kindness, like, other qualities. And humans, I think, should have a higher standing in our society, but are not regarded in that same kind of way. So I do think that like, this book sounds like, super interesting. I do want to read it. But the question, like, beauty, like, it's a difficult question, I think, especially for women, you know. I feel like a lot of value for women is tied into the concept of beauty, and youth, and all of those things, and that is tricky. And I will say, I engage in that, too, I think. For example, my cat, Pablo, is a beautiful cat, and he gets away with a lot of crap, because he's beautiful.

[Frank] Hey, it's --

[Crystal] He's truly a terror.

[Frank] Don't laugh about it. I mean, I think what that -- it's interesting. You remind me of something that the author of "Survival of the Prettiest" said, that it's a mistake, I mean, to not consider beautiful -- beauty as an important subject to think about. Like, you just sort of said, you know, focus on other things, but it's like I just said about the experience, it's a real visceral, strong experience we all have when we encounter something we would call beautiful. And it's a part of our lives, as much as anything else.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] It should be, maybe, like, but we have, like, emotions about it. Like, you just sort of said, like, "Well, you know, to have a heavy character as an object of beauty, it's like, maybe we just should not think about beauty, and just focus on other attributes." But beauty is important, and it will always be there. I mean, like, when we say, like, "Oh, we're all beautiful," and we're -- and in a very real way, we all are, as a human -- as human beings.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] But then it doesn't bely the day-to-day fact of -- there's a great line, and it gives me a chance to showtune. It's from "Chorus Line," where one of the characters -- do you know "Chorus Line," when all the dancers talk about their lives? And one of the characters sings that she's not pretty, and knew it, and knew she was different, and went to dance as a way of expressing her beauty. And she goes, she sings, "Different is nice, but it sure isn't pretty. Pretty is what it's about. I never knew anyone who was different, who couldn't figure that out." We all know, early on, whether we're one of the beautiful people or not, you know. And it might not last our lifetimes if -- that perception might change. We might realize that we are -- "Okay, I'm fine." Like Justine Bateman says in the book, "I'm not messing with my face. I'm great the way I am." And when you think about it, who cares another person's opinion is? But we sort of, all develop those philosophies of beauty. And then in the stories in "Face," she does talk about, which I find important, the -- like I said, we're all human beings, like, that biological imperative of, we're most attractive in our procreative years. Like, and obviously, women's years of procreation are shorter than a man's, so does that explain the sort of, shorter so-called window of beauty for women? And why men can be 50 and have 20-year-old girlfriends in movies, where the opposite is almost never true. And she says yes, that's a vestigial thing in us, certainly. But again, we have evolved, for better or worse, as human beings, and we have language, so we can describe our experiences differently. We can -- again, going back to the quote, the object of beauty is debated, but the experience isn't. So the object of whatever we find beautiful can change, and is influenced by culture. So actually, that goes back to what you said. The -- about -- in -- why literature is showing different forms of beauty, is that our experience of beauty is the same and persistent, but what we find beautiful can be manipulated -- or that's a bad word. But can be -- what's the word -- guided by culture and media, certainly. Because, you know, beauty, what we find beautiful has changed over the years. Maybe certain common characteristics, but the standards have changed. But it does seem the height of ridiculous sometimes, when you think, "Oh, all right, I should probably get something -- some work done." I mean, I remember looking in the mirror once, and pulling up the side of my face, and like, the line around my mouth, like, went away. And I was like, "Oh." I mean, I was never seriously considering getting something done, but I remember looking at it and thinking, "Oh, I remember that face, like, years ago." But then I also -- then I immediately, my eyes went to my hand holding the skin of my face up, and I was like, "Oh." And then I thought, "Oh, there you go. You do your face; then you got to do your hands. Then you got to do something else.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] And it just sort of, never ends. It's like, when do you finally stop? And I don't look for, certainly, put resources behind that. And it's sort of like, you don't really look younger. You just don't look wrinkly.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Or, you know what I mean? I mean, it's so interesting. Then there's other things, in terms of what we perceive as why people do what they do. I mean, one thing in the book, she talks a lot about men, obviously, as the male gaze of looking at the -- at women. And at one point, she muses in the book, maybe men don't care at all, really, what women look like -- it's -- in terms of the women -- woman herself. It's sort of like, a status thing for other men, that they're more concerned with what another man thinks, like, who they're with, than what they exactly want, which becomes a status situation. And I think I've mentioned this before -- my mother, when, you know, during that period, was talking about facelifts with her girlfriends, and then it was like, "Well, why?" And she was like, "It'll just look fake. You'll look fake." And she was like, "Well, I don't really care." And she -- what she liked, partly, was the idea that people would perceive her as having enough money to get the procedure done. That shocked me, and I never forgot it. Because it -- I always thought it was all about beauty. But she was looking at it as a status symbol. I've already --

[Crystal] That's interesting, yeah.

[Frank] [inaudible] your aspirational qualities. It is, you know, like, the reasons why we do things. Like, she wanted to be perceived as someone who could afford it, to pamper herself, or just take care of herself.

[Crystal] I guess there's definitely a lot of -- I'll just go back to the "Real Housewives." But like, you know, a lot of the surgery that gets done doesn't necessarily look natural, but maybe it is that, kind of, status symbol of being, like, "Well, I am able to do these kinds of things to my face, to my body." That's kind of interesting, I have to say.

[Frank] It is.

[Crystal] I was[inaudible] with the -- this book, when was it published? Oh, this year, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Does she talk about, like, social media? Because I do feel like one of the things that is contributing to this very impossible standard of beauty is, like, face filtering and those sorts of things.

[Frank] Oh, yeah, she talks about it, that this -- we'll see how it plays out. But like, you know, with Instagram influencers, or you know, social media, celebrities, that the self -- the control one has on their own image is huge, that you can, like, do enormous amount of things to your face, I mean, unbelievable. I mean, when I first started really looking at social media, I was like, "Oh my god, they're -- how do they --" It didn't even occur to me, you could do that technologically. I just somehow thought it was makeup or lighting, you know, the old-fashioned way. So I think that's huge. But she also said about social media, and also the ability to comment on one's looks, which is actually more of the issue.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] She -- in her first book, "Fame," she talked about in the '80s, when you wanted to write a fan letter, or letter to a celebrity, you actually had to sit down, write the letter -- I think we talked about this. Somehow, it sounds familiar; who knows? You sit down, get a piece of paper, get a pen or a typewriter, write the letter, finish the letter, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on the envelope, bring it to the mailbox, mail it. I mean, there's a commitment there, you know. So you're going to be like, "I hate you. You're an ugly old hag." Or, "I love you. You're my favorite actress." It's a commitment. Now you can literally get on Twitter and be like, "She looks terrible; old hag." Or, "I'm so disappointed that, you know, cute Mallory Keaton from 'Family Ties' looks like an old hag." I mean, that's another thing. It's like, sometimes the criticism is more -- obviously, this is important -- says much more about the beholder, than the person being discussed. So if someone says -- Justine Bateman says this in the book. "If, you know, someone calls me an old hag, it really --" She says when she hears that, she just sees the person -- says more about the person saying it, than her. She's like, "I don't think I'm an old hag; I'm me. Whatever. But you, why do you feel the need to do that?" It's like, their own fear. I mean, imagine growing up with "Family Ties," and then encountering an untouched face, unbutchered face of Justine Bateman, and think, "Oh my god, does that mean I'm old, too? Does that mean I look bad, too? Does that mean I'm -- I have no currency? I'm invisible? I've no attraction anymore?" I mean, again, with my mother, my suburban background, like, the number one topic was Elizabeth Taylor. She was like, the star. Because they were all around the same age, so her weight gain, her loss, the way she looked was such a topic of conversation, because I think it was their own anxieties about getting older, too, were put on her. And I think there was probably somewhat of joyfulness when she -- Elizabeth Taylor would gain weight, because they'd be like, "We're slimmer than she is, and she's a world-famous beauty." Do you know who Elizabeth Taylor is?

[Crystal] Who's that? No, I know.

[Frank] Right -- everybody out there, if -- you just [inaudible] Elizabeth Taylor is a very famous actress [inaudible]

[Crystal] I know [inaudible]

[Frank] God.

[Crystal] I remember, there's a movie with her and a horse.

[Frank] "National Velvet."

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] That's [inaudible] she was a teenager, a young queen, actually. So she was famous all her life, and she was sort of, the symbol. Especially since she converted to Judaism for one of her husbands, Eddie Fisher. Don't get me started on that. He left Debbie Reynolds for Elizabeth Taylor. It was a scandal. Before I was born, but I of course know all about it.

[Crystal] I mean, I've seen that Lindsay Lohan movie.

[Frank] What Lindsay Lohan movie? >>Crystal: She played Elizabeth Taylor. Do you not recall that?

[Frank] Oh -- I love it. Like, you're way into Elizabeth Taylor [inaudible]

[Crystal] I'm assuming that was 100% accurate, right?

[Frank] Actually, the guy who played Richard Burton, I thought was pretty good.

[Crystal] He was.

[Frank] Dominic West?

[Crystal] Okay, yeah, in, "From the Wire"?

[Frank] Yeah, I think it was him. I mean, she was too young to play that part. But anyway -- actually, there's a better one with Helena Bonham Carter, who plays Elizabeth Taylor. That's much better.

[Crystal] Who was her leading man?

[Frank] No, I can't remember. Look -- you can look it up. I think that's called, "Taylor and Burton."

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] But Helena Bonham Carter is great. There is another -- there's an actress who doesn't look like, in quotes, "done anything to her face," you know. Meryl Streep? I don't know. I mean, no -- and then another quote, like, I remember being in a Broadway Theater, seeing a Broadway show. This is again, like, 16, 17 years ago. And Sigourney weaver was on Broadway, and -- I love Sigourney weaver. But the woman in front of me said to her husband, I -- or her partner, "She's had work done, but it's good work." Meaning, you know she had work done, because she's of a certain age, but you can't really tell, so you think it's good work. But the assumption is, she's had work.

[Crystal] Yeah. I hate that.

[Frank] It's a --

[Crystal] I think that woman was me, because that was my first thought when you said Meryl Streep. Another actress [inaudible] work.

[Frank] See? Here we go. But do we actually contemplate -- do you contemplate whether Brad Pitt got work done? >>Crystal: I think he did. Didn't he get his ears pinned or something? I don't know.

[Frank] Hey, that's actually a great point. Because when I was looking at plastic surgery for men, and celebrities, it almost always says that they had their ears pinned back. Clark Gable, Bing Crosby, [inaudible]

[Crystal] Yeah, right.

[Frank] But they don't talk about their face. Like, did they get their crow's feet dealt with?

[Crystal] I don't know, but I think Tom Cruise is -- has definitely gotten work done, right? No? Okay, well, I have to say, he has not aged in a really long time.

[Frank] Crystal is missing my point, and Justine Bateman's point about this book. I love that you're instantly into gossip. You're like, [inaudible] he looks fabulous.

[Crystal] We went from highbrow to lowbrow. This is the natural transition of this podcast.

[Frank] We're going to have to think about this when we go off air.

[Crystal] But taking it back though, I do -- I will say, I 100% agree with you about how I think there is this lasting impact of the societal beauty standards on a lot of young women. I've witnessed that, for sure, and I do think that is an important conversation to have. And I'm really glad that like, you know, there is this book. And somebody who is known from Hollywood is talking about this issue. And I really liked what you said, too, about using the word currency in relation to beauty. I think that's also really important. And the idea that this really -- beauty also, like, really speaks to women's position in society. The fact that people feel like they have the right to comment on what people look like and how they look like, it makes me think about like, how like, a lot of women, you go down the street, and there are men who are like, "Why aren't you smiling?" Right? As if --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Your expression, because it's not happy, really affects their day; they have a right to how you express yourself. And so I think this is like, a really interesting and important topic. >>Frank: Yeah. I mean, to wrap it up, like, I think what I like about Justine Bateman in this book -- and I recommend both of them, "Fame," and "Face" -- is she says at one point, that she didn't want to change the behavior on everyone around her. Like, that -- and I've heard this story before for women, where men will say, "Smile." As if, like, you know, "Be pretty for me." She doesn't want to change that behavior. She doesn't want to change the advertising world. It's not like going out there to do it. What she wanted to do was personally change the button in her that was pushed when someone said, "You look bad," or, "You look terrible." She wanted to analyze what that button was that was pushed in her and made her feel that, and remove the button. She said, "I want to become bulletproof." And I love that, in that she focused on herself. Like, "I don't want to change the world. I can't really change the world. I could change the world, maybe, by changing myself." I'm looking at the man in [inaudible] Yeah, I mean, it's also in our control. Like, you can rail against the advertising agency, and tweet about it, and say it's horrible. And sure, but you could also do the harder work of looking at yourself and saying, "I'm okay with myself." How can I -- you know, I want to be okay with myself. How can I remove my own fears or analyze my own fears, my own issues, my own buttons that get pushed? And start there. And so like, a Justine Bateman, being a famous 16-year-old [inaudible] and the whole story there, can be a 55-year-old woman and say, "I'm fine." And if the man says, "You should really get that chin looked at," it becomes about him, and not her. It's not her issue. So I like that. Audrey Hepburn -- you know Audrey Hepburn, right?

[Crystal] Who's that?

[Frank] Audrey Hepburn -- oh, boy. Okay, all right. I'm going to leave the area. You need to look [inaudible]

[Crystal] I know Audrey Hepburn. I do know Audrey Hepburn.

[Frank] She aged -- I mean, again, who knows? But she aged beautifully. Here we are, talking --

[Crystal] I mean, isn't -- didn't she also struggle with like, a eating disorder?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Well, too, so again --

[Frank] This is terrible. I mean, this -- I think we should just leave it. But like, I remember thinking I wanted to age like Audrey Hepburn, because she had tons of wrinkles, looked her age, not white teeth. Yet, she was beautiful. But I mean -- the line of her neck was perfect. I always used to think she got a neck done. And I remember when I was younger, I was like, "I'm going to just get my neck done, and leave the rest go." Because it's that -- god.

[Crystal] No, we need to --

[Frank] Like, just like --

[Crystal] [inaudible] our double chins. You can't see -- you can see it; no one else can see this.

[Frank] Or the --

[Crystal] But we should celebrate our double chins.

[Frank] Your double chin, yes. I'm in my crapey, wrinkly neck years. Like --

[Crystal] I will --

[Frank] I think I just [inaudible] perfectly. But bringing up Audrey Hepburn, I think I just ruined all --

[Crystal] [inaudible] but okay, but with -- I'll just say, like, I love your last comment about removing that kind of button. And for me, I interpret this, or like, maybe internalize misogyny, all that kind of stuff, too. And I love that clearly she is doing something, and putting that work in. I do want to also just like, say, I think it does take a lot of work. And sometimes if people are struggling with that and they can't do it on their own, that's also okay, too, you know. Like, you know, it's -- we should do that work, but we should also change the world, which is like, such a difficult thing, but --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] I think it takes both kinds of things, so kids don't have to grow up and have to struggle the same way that people --

[Frank] Yeah, like, maybe one step at a time. Like, give yourself the, you know, ability to take one step at a time. Like, first, the Justine Bateman book. Justine Bateman went through this, thought about it, and then wrote a book. So she analyzed herself, and then by publishing the book, can change the world in terms of people's [inaudible]

[Crystal] Yes, true.

[Frank] But she had to go through the experience for herself. And I think that's the important thing. You can't -- you don't have to do it all at once and right away. I mean, it's such a fastmoving world. Like, you post something on Instagram, it's like, "I'm going to change the world." It's like, all right, one step at a time, everybody. We'll get there.

[Crystal] I agree.

[Frank] All right, babe. I'm going to tell you about the book I want us to read next time. And maybe [inaudible]

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] You ready for it?

[Crystal] I'm ready.

[Frank] Okay. It's a book, and I don't -- I'm not sure -- I looked it up, but I'm not sure how to pronounce her name. But the book is called, "The Chosen and the Beautiful."

[Crystal] I'm excited for this.

[Frank] I had a feeling you would be.

[Crystal] Yay.

[Frank] "The Chosen and the Beautiful," by Nghi Vo. N-g-h-i-, last name is Vo. "The chosen and the Beautiful." I don't know a lot about it, but I do know -- this is what I was excited about, because it's something I think you might enjoy. The library has cataloged it under science fiction.

[Crystal] Okay, yes.

[Frank] Which is interesting. It has LGBTQ issues in it, but also, what I first got into was that it's a riff on "The Great Gatsby," by Fitzgerald. So she -- NGHI Vo in "The Chosen and the Beautiful" -- I don't know a lot about it -- uses "The Great Gatsby" as a jumping-off point. And -- but there's also this sci-fi element, which I have no idea what that could be, except that the library catalog said it's sci-fi. I don't know. I'm -- I came across it, and I was like, "This is the book I want to read." I don't know -- it was just one of those things, I had a reaction. And I'm thrilled, your reaction was like, "Yay." [inaudible] you heard of it.

[Crystal] I'm honestly excited for this. It's on my to-be-read list. And I'm disappointed that I couldn't be very cold towards your choice.

[Frank] You wanted to be like, dismissive.

[Crystal] And be like, "No, I refuse to read this." But I'm so excited.

[Frank] And I want Nghi Vo to know, because she's listening of course, that I went out and bought her book.

[Crystal] She's doing the talk at the library thing.

[Frank] Really?

[Crystal] I think I saw something, maybe recently, that maybe an author event or discussion about that book. Oh, we should listen in.

[Frank] See, look at it -- look how brilliant I am.

[Crystal] We should do research --

[Frank] Fabulous. I am so fabulous. I'm, like, tapped into the zeitgeist and everything. So cool. We're going to read, "The Chosen and the Beautiful." Join us, won't you, out there?

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] She's ASMR-ing me. Okay, there we go. Whenever her camera goes out --

[Crystal] So Frank, earlier, when we were whispering, Kara, and Krissy, and I, this is what we were talking about. So I wanted to pick something -- this is weird; I keep whispering. I was trying to pick something that, like, you would hopefully maybe guess, and not just some random Chachki that I have around the house.

[Frank] Chachki. Okay.

[Crystal] So this is guess [inaudible] Okay, so I'm going to start.

[Frank] Whoa. Oh my god. It's like, a bag of rice.

[Crystal] Oh, you're so close. It's a bag of --

[Frank] Bag of beans.

[Crystal] Yes. Are you sure you didn't hear us when we were whispering?

[Frank] No. It sounded like, I -- first, like, "I don't trust you.

[Crystal] What kind of beans? What kind of beans?

[Frank] Well, garbanzo.

[Crystal] No, if I show you it in the camera, can you still guess it?

[Frank] Red? I can't -- check.

[Crystal] That's not even the right color. How -- why? It's clearly green.

[Frank] So green --

[Crystal] They're mung beans.

[Frank] What are they called?

[Crystal] Mung beans.

[Frank] Mung?

[Crystal] M-u-n-g.

[Frank] Are you going to cook with them?

[Crystal] I mean, I don't cook, but my mother will cook them for me.

[Frank] Oh, right, you're not at home. You're like, "Mom --"

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] "Here's a bag of mung beans. Do it."

[Crystal] Yeah, we usually, when my mom cooks it, she boils them. And it's a, kind of, a sweet kind of soup dish. And sometimes you can get it in like, grocery stores, as like, mung bean popsicles. And if you ever go to like, a Bubble, Boba tea place, Bubble tea place --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] You can get like, a mung bean slush, which is really great. >> Is it -- you said it's sweet? >> The beans themselves are not sweet. But usually, at least the way my family makes it, we add sweeteners to it. So it's a sweet dish, rather than [inaudible] isn't it?

[Frank] It is.

[Crystal] Relaxing.

[Frank] It sounded like a bag of something with multiple items in it. That's why I said rice.

[Crystal] Very close.

[Frank] Maybe I did hear you, and I'm forgetting it, but -- you'll never -- you'll never know, my darling. Well --

[Crystal] You guessed it so quickly.

[Frank] I know, right? Maybe I'm just getting used to your antics, your ASMR antics. Well, I think we should wrap this thing up. And please read "The Chosen and the Beautiful" by Nghi Vo. Crystal and I are going to discuss it next time. I'm looking forward to it; she's looking forward to it. I think it could be fun. So thanks, everybody, for listening. See you next time.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to "The Librarian is In," a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play. Or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.