Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In!

Hello! Hi! Hey! Heya! Hellooooo!

Frank and Crystal got e-together to discuss what they read in their free time last week. 

Frank's pick was...

The Sacred Band: Three Hundred Theban Lovers Fighting to Save Greek Freedom by James Romm

The story of the Sacred Band, an elite 300-man corps recruited from pairs of lovers, highlights a chaotic era of ancient Greek history, four decades marked by battles, ideological disputes, and the rise of vicious strongmen. At stake was freedom, democracy, and the fate of Thebes, at this time the leading power of the Greek world. From violent combat in city streets to massive clashes on open ground, from ruthless tyrants to bold women who held their era in thrall, The Sacred Band follows the twists and turns of a crucial historical moment: the end of the treasured freedom of ancient Greece. (Publisher summary)

 

Which sort of (kind of?) leads into the book Crystal read...

Monstress by Marjorie Liu

Set in an alternate matriarchal 1900's Asia, in a richly imagined world of art deco-inflected steam punk, MONSTRESS tells the story of a teenage girl who is struggling to survive the trauma of war, and who shares a mysterious psychic link with a monster of tremendous power, a connection that will transform them both and make them the target of both human and otherworldly powers. (Publisher summary of volume 1)

 

 

 

Below are some still shots of the artwork Crystal was showing Frank during the show.

Don't forget to check out of your library our next month's book club pick! To help celebrate Pride month, Crystal and Frank chose a book from NYPL's recent LGBTQ Reads From Both Familiar and Fresh Voices blog post. They'll be reading...

Memorial by Bryan Washington

Japanese-American chef Mike and Black daycare teacher Benson begin reevaluating their stale relationship after Mike departs for Japan to visit his dying father and Benson is suddenly stuck with his visiting mother-in-law, who becomes an unconventional roommate. (Publisher summary)

 

 

 

 

Crystal also wanted to share some book recs for people interested in librarianship: Knowledge Justice edited by Sofia Leung and Jorge Lopez-McKnight and here is the open access edition.

And sadly we forgot to do an ASMR! But after recording Crystal sent us this one, in honor of (in synergy with?) the war cats in Monstress. 

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello?

[Crystal] Hello.

[Frank] Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hey, hey, hey you guys. Hey, hey, hey, listen. Hey --

[Crystal] You can follow this in, yeah.

[Frank] Yes, hello, and hi and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast. What is it about? I don't know. Books? Yeah, books, culture and what to read next. I am and remain Frank. And?

[Crystal] I am Crystal [laughter].

[Frank] You always stall on that one like you're not sure. Should I say my name? Like, I guess, we don't have to introduce ourselves. We're superstars at this point, but I guess it's nice to say who we are. Especially since I've had a revolving door of cohosts these days. Anyway, how are you, Crystal?

[Crystal] I'm good.

[Frank] Yeah?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] What's on the landscape of Crystal? Anything happening, interesting? What's up?

[Crystal] I don't know if this is interesting. It might be weird. I've started tracking the Crocs I see in the wilds. Have you noticed?

[Frank] The Crocs?

[Crystal] Yeah, like the shoes. It's become very popular.

[Frank] Actually, I have to say, it's funny you should say this. You never know where things can go. A patron came into the library the other day, and -- with his dog, and it caused a stir of animal loving because the dog was wearing Crocs. [ Laughter ] Talk about in the wild.

[Crystal] They've gone too far.

[Frank] Little, tiny, paw Crocs. And it made at least two of the staff have to take pictures and the guy who had the dog was more than happy to have the dog -- And the dog was like slightly posing. Like one paw was in front of the other, like pop. And it was sort of a to do, and it caused a stir. So there you go.

[Crystal] Were the Crocs that the dog was wearing, did they have those little jewels on it? Have you noticed how they have these jewels?

[Frank] They looked like -- no, I haven't. I actually don't even notice shoes, especially my own. When I was tying my shoes the other day, I was like my shoes are really dirty because I'm always traipsing through Jefferson Market which is under renovation. But I always say I don't notice my shoes because they're so far away from me, because I'm so tall. And then I don't notice other people's shoes, which I know lots of people do. Especially as a marker of like, taking care of one's grooming, I think because if -- even my shoelaces are like cut off at the end and knotted because I snapped one and never got new shoelaces. I'm just not a shoe person. So I don't notice the jewel on the Croc.

[Crystal] You could abandon those shoelaces and get some Crocs. They're shoelace free. So easy.

[Frank] Why do Crocs have such a bad reputation?

[Crystal] I think because they're -- my personal opinion, okay? They're hideous [laughs].

[Frank] Talk about products. This is not an endorsement clearly.

[Crystal] No.

[Frank] Or a negative. It just is.

[Crystal] But they're very --

[Frank] But your personal opinion, sorry.

[Crystal] My personal opinion is they're kind of like, not the most attractive kind of shoes, but I think they're very comfortable for a lot of people. My colleague, Kelly, the children's librarian here, she wears them. We joke around that we have like a croc crew at the library and she's trying to get me to join but I'm just like, no, I can't do it [laughter].

[Frank] Huh? It never even occurred to me. I mean, comforts important, certainly. I mean we're on our feet a lot. You know? So but you're not going to go there?

[Crystal] Oh, no, no, I'm resisting.

[Frank] Well, we'll leave that where it is. Leave it where it is. So what's happening in my world, you ask? I know didn't but I'll -- I don't know. I'm actually -- I don't even know. What is happening in my world?

[Crystal] Jefferson Market still closed?

[Frank] Yeah. But it's moving along really nicely. Excuse me, that I think it's going to be like, you know, fall, like late summer, early fall. I mean, it seems like it's in the home stretch. Walls going up, plumbing visible, things like that. I think it's going to be really nice. Yeah, I'll be at different branches between now and then. So I'm sort of going to be like an itinerant librarian, wandering the streets of New York.

[Crystal] Which Jefferson --

[Frank] Yearning to help people.

[Crystal] Which Jefferson market staff have you assigned to Woodstock?

[Frank] None.

[Crystal] Darn it! I needed a new friend.

[Frank] Do you know how -- it's not really my doing because you know how our libraries are set up in networks, or regions, or districts. And so our branches -- like downtown Manhattan is overseen by one person, my boss, basically. And you, your boss has their own boss. And those bosses are very loyal to their own district. So they want to keep the staff they have in their own network. So they're not exactly going to send someone to Woodstock. They're like, let your boss's boss worry about that.

[Crystal] I understand those rules. But I also find it detrimental to friendships. So if you could just send Grace over here, that'd be great.

[Frank] Oh --

[Crystal] Grace, who's the librarian.

[Frank] -- you know Grace. Grace was on a long time ago when Gwen was on the podcast, with the other Grace, Grace Dwyer. Like the Graces spoke about YAA and fantasy. Did you listen to that one? This is like, couple of years ago.

[Crystal] No.

[Frank] Don't even answer. [ Laughter ] Would Grace want to come up to you?

[Crystal] She would kill me if she had to travel that far. She'd be like -- she would murder me.

[Frank] Oh, okay, I think she's happy where she is.

[Crystal] But it would be fun.

[Frank] She's going to be in New Amsterdam with one of her old colleagues, Brian, who is now the manager there, who worked at Jefferson Market as the young adult librarian, but they knew each other from committees. So, you know, people move on up after they leave Jefferson Market because of their mentoring and perfect managerial skills of their manager. Who could that be? Frank? You're right. I'm sure you could -- if someone did an exposé on me, which might happen if I'm not even that interesting. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who have some not so nice things to say [laughter].

[Crystal] Lots of enemies.

[Frank] Because you know what, actually, that ties in because I'm always looking for a segue. It sort of ties into the book I read, because it has to do with kings, and leaders, and you know, especially in history, or -- well, maybe not so much history, but in common culture, one could say we are used to reading about kings, queens, and leaders in sort of, like, somewhat black and white terms. I mean, I guess if you really do a deep dive in a biography, you get the -- hopefully the full range of personality, but you know, they're -- you know, especially the book I read, which is related to Ancient Greece. Because you know I love mythology, and all attendant myths and mythological realm. You know, they're like the good king Agesilaus. And you know, he had one fatal flaw because the Greeks did that. But the rest of it was just, you know, one thing. And I even wrote in my notes as I was reading the book, like, you know, can't we just sort of like, revel in the fabulousness of a full personality? Like we can be -- like I said, if someone wrote a story about me, they could find plenty of so-called bad things. But you know, they're human things. Like I could be petty sometimes, believe it or not, I could be short tempered, I could be very loving. I mean, it could be lots of things, right? So talking about our leaders, and in a much more human way, I feel like we're afraid to because it might make them too human. And we want to believe in a superpower that maybe will take care of us, and we don't have to worry about. So we want to think of them that way. But it might breed extremism, and it breeds -- maybe, you know, then you can counterpoint that person with someone else who offers something different. And then you have factions and then you have war, which is basically what my book is all about. Well, I guess I should talk about it right?

[Crystal] What book is it?

[Frank] Crystal is like, I'm not even on the podcasts anymore. You've just taken over. Should I, or do you want to --

[Crystal] No, no, you should start by -- as you're talking about it, I feel like my book might be very similar to your book, but I'll wait for you to go through your book first.

[Frank] Oh, my God. I love synergy, synergy, synergy, synergy, synergy, synergy, that's a disco song. Actually, I'm going to open up with a quote, to mesmerize the masses. Okay. "If by some contrivance a city or an army of lovers and their young loves could come into being, then fighting alongside one another, such men, though few in number could defeat practically all humankind. For a man in love would rather have anyone other than his lover, see him leave his place in line or toss away his weapons and often would rather die on behalf of the one he loves." What does that sound like to you?

[Crystal] I have no idea.

[Frank] Well, so the book is -- I should tell you the title, "The Sacred Band: Three Hundred Theban Lovers Fighting to Save Greek Freedom" by James Romm, R-O-M-M. And that quote, is sort of the core of the book. Which hopefully got across the idea, which is an interesting journey to think about, because -- all right, because it starts off with the idea of Eros. That this -- let's just say that this concept was elucidated. I wouldn't say particular to ancient Greece but elucidated in ancient Greek literature as a thing. So you have the concept of Eros, which is love, and desire, and passion. And then, amongst men, there were -- there was considered the eromenos and the erastes. And the eromenos or eromenos, was sort of the younger, adolescent, in some cases, or maybe all cases. I mean, a lot of things in history are not fully known. We only can go by what we've found on tablets that have survived the centuries. I mean, so much has been lost. So the eromenos is the young boy, like before beard, even. So before puberty, and then the erastes is an older man. And so the question is, like, this bond between them. And it's debated in the book, and it's debated in life, like, you know, how far this relationship went. It was a relationship that was considered valid, even though we always might think of ancient Greece as like, yeah, they were always like, you know, man on boy love or boys and men and -- but as I read this book, it was not so the case. At least according to the research of this author, James Romm. And that Athens and Sparta -- if you don't know Greek history, like Athens was like the sort of democratic, I mean, again, talking like leaders. Like giving them one color rather than many which they had, but like Athens is known as like the sort of thinking, artistic, democratic culture and Sparta was more of the honor, and fighting, and machismo, and warlike culture. And then Thebes was like, the third power in ancient Greece. It was like, basically the Greenwich Village of Greece, because a lot more permissiveness, so called was allowed there, but what was I going to say? Oh, how this sort of men-on-men love was a thing in ancient Greece, but Athens and Sparta had problems with it. Actually, James Romm in the book calls it problematic. That it was problematic in those cultures. That -- and that Thebes, the third power, which is the point -- which is the focus of the book, allowed men to "marry" in quotes. Like live together, respectful -- respectively, and even exchange vows of the sort. So it's not like it was all over Greek culture, so that's what's interesting when reading it. Because then also the question is, how far do these relationships go? Which I find a very interesting question, because when I was younger, I might have been like, oh, sexy times sexy times like. But the more I read it, the more I thought and contemplated that a lot of these relationships were just very male centric, bringing a boy of age without a sexual component necessarily. It was more like -- but I guess what confuses us or me, or interests the reader is that the use of passion and love. We're not so used to talking about men being in love. Maybe that's the thing. It's like in our culture now like to say, oh, yes, you know, my neighbor, growing up, loved me as a 14-year-old, and was a great mentor to me. So we could say, yeah, he loved me, but like, we wouldn't dwell on that word so much, maybe. Right? But yet the word passion and love -- and I think it really has -- it possibly has misogynistic roots, and that it wasn't so much like oh, you love another guy, ugh. It was more like men are the most important things in the world and their love for each other and support of each other and mentoring of each other is the most important thing. And women are just sort of like on the sideline, you know? Utilitarian for whatever need. That's at least the impression I got from reading this and it's -- but it does go back and forth. Like where it will say of course some had sexual relations, but also the age thing was not always a young boy and a man. It was like sometimes two men of age. As you can imagine, just like now, there's all sorts of kinds of relationships. But I guess the most alarming for us is sort of the younger boy thing. Because, you know, in our age now, it would be something to be concerned about if there was an older man being interested in a younger boy. But like I said, I think so much of it was this sort of mentoring into adulthood and there was rites of passage, like any culture has. And this particularly was one but so that weaves its way through the book and it's, you know, citing Xenophon, a historian who was very pro-Sparta and very against male-on-male love in the way we would think of it, as like a passionate, sexual, full, or more emotional relationship. It was more of a, hi guys, we're together. And Socrates and Plato weigh in as well. But like, Thebes had this more, so called -- I don't like the word permissive. It was just -- it was a part of their culture. I mean there was even a myth. You know, I love myths, of Hercules and his -- which I've mentioned before, because I -- "Autobiography of Red" the poem features Hercules as a character. And Hercules in the myth has these 12 labors because of some horrible thing that happened, and one of them is cutting the heads off the Hydra. And which is like a multiple headed monster. But the problem with the Hydra as in Greek mythology, is that if you cut one head off, it grows back two. So Hercules had his nephew Iolaus, who would come behind Hercules and cauterize the neck once it was cut off, so it couldn't grow back. And their love for -- and journeys, and battles, and you know, achievements together were idolized by the Thebans. And their grave was a place where men would go to exchange vows with each other, or to give their love to each other. Vow their love to each other. So but then, of course, my beloved Edith Hamilton, who wrote Edith Hamilton's "Mythology" doesn't really talk about that. She just says, Iolaus helped out Hercules a lot. Thumbs up. But so you get different stories when you read different authors and different translations. So did you say --

[Crystal] I was going to say -- oh, gosh, it was like the Iliad's, or I'm not sure, maybe "The Odyssey" with Achilles and when his -- I think maybe Cousin Patroclus?

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] If I'm saying his name correctly, was killed, and --

[Frank] You are.

[Crystal] And there's sort of -- it's sort of unsaid but potentially, there was also like a relationship there that was maybe more than just like, platonic or sibling-ish love. But it's unclear, you know?

[Frank] Well, the book that everyone's reading right now, that's not new; "Song of Achilles" by Madeline Miller, who also wrote "Circe" which I've talked about on the podcast. So yeah, yeah. It's interesting when you really get it, and the book is really good. The research is done, and he tries to be -- he tries to bring on different sides and different points of view. I mean, because certainly the historians of the day had points of view. Obviously, that manifest in their work. Like I said, Xenophon was really against even acknowledging -- he was very anti-Thebes, because he didn't -- he thought it was too permissive. He didn't want to really elucidate their victories, especially when they won over Sparta. So anyway, that's -- that leads me into the real main part of the book, this eros component is definitely a part of it and works its way through the book. But a lot of it is also for military lovers out there, like militaristic. It's a lot of battles, and a lot of strategy, and a lot of how battles were fought and with what weapons. I mean, most of it was like hand to hand, like infantry men, like hand-to-hand combat like -- and like 10,000 men fighting hand to hand. I mean, and it seems like the battles never ended too. Like and -- well, you know, I guess nothing changes if we really think about it but like, between Thebes, Sparta and Athens, Athens would side with Thebes against Sparta, but then they would change their mind because they didn't want to get Sparta too angry because they were a little nervous about them. And then Sparta would go after Thebes and not care if Athens joins in but then they would blame Athens and go after them. And then it was like the shifting alliances all the time. Like depending on where the resources were, and who was even insulted. I mean like Agesilaus who was the king of Sparta, never -- lived till in his '90s, which has to be achievement for that time. Never forgot a slight that Thebes visited upon him. And like 70 years was sort of pissed off at Thebes because of that. Like he was going to do a sacrifice on Theban land, basically to show off his power and say, I can get on your land anytime I want. I'm from Sparta, and we're Sparta. And Thebes was like, no, no, and they sent like an artillery to thwart his sacrifice, he was going to make at a sacred place, and basically humiliated the king. And the king was like, I will never forget that. So it's like, his whole life was colored by this sort of grievance against Thebes, which was a personal one; I guess of public humiliation, though. That's not so personal. So these battles figure a lot throughout the book. So which I find a hard time following. I can't quite sometimes get the logic of battle, because it's sort of like, well, why did you just invade Thebes when you were on Thebes' side Athens? Huh? And then you sort of look and it's like, almost, to me, sometimes nonreasons. Like just because they had the time. And they're like, who knows, maybe we'll get some slaves, or maybe -- and they -- like they were constantly enslaving each other. Like in the region alone, like, you know, you take over Thebes, take slaves to Sparta. And then Thebes attacks Sparta and takes them back. And it's like these generations of shunting around. God, anyway, I'm getting [inaudible], where was I? So -- oh, so the Eros part, and then the battle part is that in Thebes, as I said. This sort of -- I keep saying permissive, but there has to be a better word. But this culture that just -- -- had a part of -- as a component of its culture, this male love for each other. Male and male love developed this fighting corps of 300 men, 150 pairs of lovers. So the theory was that these -- that as I read a quote at the beginning, is that these pairs of lovers would fight better and more effectively and harder than anyone else, because of the fact that they were fighting beside their loved one. That they could never be shamed or disappoint the loved one in terms of failure. So they would work even harder. And the -- and battle more fiercely. And the, you know, analogy was given of like, you know, two horses on a chariot is better than one because the horses feed off each other. Like one is going faster, the other one has to come up to -- you want to say something?

[Crystal] But what if one of them gets injured or dies of the pair? Wouldn't that be a major distraction?

[Frank] Would kill both -- then the other one would -- Well, that is never addressed. As -- that's a good point, though. Maybe the theory could be the other lover would fight even harder to avenge.

[Crystal] Oh, okay.

[Frank] The --

[Crystal] All right.

[Frank] I mean it's a love relationship, supposedly. I mean, it's, you know, these pairs of lovers. And I should say that, how I heard about the book and also how this came to public knowledge, was that there was a picture in the New Yorker a couple of months ago of a grave site that was discovered in 1880 of these 300, band, sacred band. And the reason how this theory developed about them being lovers is that many of them were in -- they were all in pairs, buried. And many of them had their hands -- holding hands, and/or arms around each other. And that's sort of, I guess, a huge spoiler alert, even though I think it's clear from the beginning that it doesn't end well. Is that this band of lovers, army of lovers was undefeated. It was a corps. Like I said, 10,000 men to be fighting. But this was a corps of 300. They were considered the sort of frontline defense of any attack on Thebes. So they were like, thousands of other men fighting but this corps -- a sacred band was the core of it. And they were undefeated for 40 years, until who should come along? Alexander the Great. And he sort of -- he obliterated them. They all died. The whole corps in a battle with Alexander the Great in Macedonia, so -- and then they were buried on site. And this grave was discovered in 1880. And I saw a picture of -- the guy who discovered the grave, drew a picture of the grave site with the skeletons, the bodies. And it was so affecting that I wanted to read more about it. And I read that it was coming out as a book, "The Sacred Band," which led me to read it. Because this idea of this grave site with these, sort of, pairs of lovers, male lovers who were fierce warriors together. So I mean, there's so much here. And there's so much about military, and sort of fighting, and extremism, that it was an interesting read in terms of like -- sort of, like the battles that are being waged today that are maybe not so much on a battlefield in terms of war, but in terms of politics, and in terms of identity and in terms of personal rights, civil rights. You know, I mean, one was, you know, how -- where was it this -- someone says, "No one is free, except Zeus, the king of all the gods." Like no one really is free. And that the citizens in the middle are always destroyed by the both sides of extremism. If there's two sides of extremism, usually the middle -- the citizens in the middle are the ones that are destroyed almost because the two sides don't like the fact that they're moderate. Or the two sides, you know, want them for their own side and end up destroying those middle -- that middle ground. I mean, just things like that. That it was just interesting to think about. And things like, sparred as slaves. Like they were huge into slaves and Thebes, like given it's like, Greenwich Village status, like it had a whole -- it built a whole city for escaped slaves from Sparta, which Sparta forevermore wanted to get back. They wanted to get back that town. They were all walled city states. Like Thebes was its own walled in city. Sparta actually was such a tough guy. They were like, we don't need walls, we're feared. But most of them had walls around them to protect them. And then when you fight a foreign entity, you're really fighting other Greeks because the city states -- the cities were inviolate -- autonomous on their own. But like Sparta slaves had -- it's talked about in the book, had many times where they could push it and revolt, but they never did. And so the contemplation of this sort of like legacy of slavery that some can't fight out of. Oh, yeah, another line was when it came down to survival -- I thought this was interesting. Like baseline survival. When survival was on the line, civil rights were annulled. Like countries or states who were fighting for their very survival of -- tended to clamp down on their citizens' civil rights. It's just interesting things to think about what happens in a warlike country when battles could last a day or two, but they could also last years and years, which we're also familiar with. But that the battles were almost never ending, and much is made also of like, a whole class of soldiers who were just simply for pay. Like, you know, soldiers of fortune. Like many times a king or ruler would be like, yeah, we got to hire a whole bunch of soldiers. And there was a ton of -- a pool to pull from because it was like a career to be a career soldier.

[Crystal] I have a question.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Because I know like thinking about the modern-day rebel relevance. It does feel like you know, in these days, there are these continuous wars, but for most of America, the citizens like we're kind of untouched by it. So I'm kind of wondering like, in the book, you know, for those citizens, like were they also kind of untouched with the separation of like military and regular social life? Or was it sort of like; they were also feeling the struggles of these wars?

[Frank] That's so interesting about using untouched because I was thinking about that too. And it was, maybe contemplate, like, are we living in less violent times? Just because very self-centeredly like, "Oh, I don't feel it here in America." You know, personally, literally, on my block, not like in terms of reading the news, but then of course, you just do a little reading and it's like strife all over. But I think the culture was such that, at least according to this book, that everybody was involved anytime. And it had such impact. Like in one part of the book, a battle was won, and the leader made all the slaves in the conquered town free and then forced the noble wives and daughters to marry them, to give the slaves instant status and then Instant buy in to their new leader. But what of the women?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Some of them killed themselves on their so-called wedding night because they didn't want to do this, but they were pawns in that life. It seemed to be all about -- obviously, it always is about getting resources, resources, resources, or just pure exertion of power, which is also not unknown today. You know it's interesting, you could talk a lot about the difference of violence now and then. I mean, in terms of social media, and just the interconnectedness of the world, forces almost the world to fight in different ways. You know, like hacking and online stuff, and also just like, terrorism. But so that's "The Sacred Band" by James Romm. But I just think the underlying thing, the concept, which you certainly wouldn't hear in today's military, is that passion or love between men is a force that, is something that makes one -- a man fight harder. Or the concept of two men loving each other, in whatever way they meant, in whatever way we might think they meant, was a good thing. Was something that could be talked about and admired. It's interesting. There's some sex stuff but like, you know, it's really up for debate about how far in the different Greek cultures this sort of love went. But just think as the idea of that it was a proclaimed thing, rather than something secret, or, you know, somebody could make a joke about. Like I love you, man kind of thing, is interesting.

[Crystal] Yeah, I think it's interesting, too, that like, I feel like a lot of more contemporary, like military narratives, the love that is talked about is like, the love for country, you know, versus like this kind of interpersonal love.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] It's interesting to hear from that kind of perspective.

[Frank] I know. I love reading about history, and I love the myths and I -- you know a lot because Thebes is also the seat of [inaudible], which is the head of the family that spawned Oedipus and Antigone and all those myths that I -- that are in plays, that are so great to read. Just really fascinating but like, you know, if might be fun, if -- like if you have a -- someone, like a librarian out there to recommend a book to someone who's like, let's say, a guy who's into military stuff, he's sort of going to get a lot of military stuff in this book, but then, you know, a little on the sides [laughter] might surprise him. It's like, oh, you've got to read this. It talks about how they did battle and how they fought and what they fought with. And then, you know, there might be some like, you know, male on male action [laughter]. So it was really interesting. I'm glad I picked it up. So that's my story. What did you read, darling?

[Crystal] Do you think we're going through like a military phase? Because I think this is the third book [laughter].

[Frank] Thank you saying that because I thought of that too and I didn't say it. We read "All Quiet on the Western Front," then "Insurrecto," and now I read this. Did you read a military book, bitch?

[Crystal] Kind of [laughter]. So the book I read -- books, book, kind of a book, yes. Is "Monstress."

[Frank] Is it a graphic novel?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] She's holding it up for me to see --

[Crystal] Oh, I forget. I forget this is a --

[Frank] We're not live, honey.

[Crystal] People can't see. [ Laughter ]

[Frank] Oh, sure. It's a series of graphic novels.

[Crystal] Yes. So it's a series of -- that was published by Image Comics. I think it first came out like 2015, as like single issues, floppies. And then like the first trade was, I think in 2016, because it actually made the best books for Teens List. And then every year after that, they've put out a new volume. And so the newest one is going to be Volume 6, which is going to be out in September. I'd read this a while ago, but I was like, okay, I want to catch up on the stories. So I went back and revisited Volumes 1 through 3, which was also collected in addition, that's like Book 1. That's a collected edition that has like issues 1 through 18. But you can also just get that from reading Volumes 1 through 3.

[Frank] "Monstress?"

[Crystal] "Monstress," it's by Marjorie Liu, and --

[Frank] But it's spelled M-O-N-S-T-R-E-S-S not like M-O-N-S-T-R-O-U-S, monstrous.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Like the word monstrous, but it's "Monstress." Okay.

[Crystal] "Monstress."

[Frank] I'm sure you'll explain, so let's just shut up Frank, for five seconds.

[Crystal] Well, I was still trying to spell out what you were spelling. I was like, okay. So it's by Marjorie Liu and Sana Takeda. Marjorie Liu think has also written like text two books before. I want to say because I'd read one like years and years ago. I think it was maybe like a romance fantasy. I don't know if this is her first graphic novel but it's certainly her most like, well known one. It's won like lots of Eisner awards. It's -- I think she may have been like the first female writer possibly to win an Eisner, but don't quote me on that. Hugo Awards, Harvey Awards as well. And it essentially follows this one girl who is 17-ish in the first book, named -- I'm going to kind of guess with some of the name pronunciations. Maika Halfwolf. And in the book, it's a fantasy series. There's about like five races, I would say. One are this kind of adorable but also powerful cats. Right, who can do magic. One of the characters in there is named like, Master Ren. Then there's the humans then, there are the Ancients, then there are the old gods and then there are the arcanics, who are like half human half ancients. And Maika is an arcanic. So she -- if I'm pronouncing that correctly, so she looks human, but she has sort of like magical powers in some way. In the first volume, you kind of discover she is missing part of one arm. And what comes out of the arm is a demon sometimes, which sounds wild. And this demon is this like, creature that has all of these tentacles and all of these eyes. It kind of reminded me of a scarier version -- if you ever read the book "A Wrinkle in Time," because there is -- one the creatures -- is that, yeah, the name of it, but like a much scarier version of that but also with those kind of like staring eyes. She, I believe is like trying to -- her mother has died. She's trying to like, find out more about what happened, maybe avenge her death. Has like -- gets involved in a war. There's these sorcerers, sorceresses I should say. I'm going to say Cumaea, is maybe they're -- what they're called, the arcanics for their power. And she kind of gets involved in this world. This book is so -- honestly, it's so beautiful, but also so gruesome in many ways. People are killed and eviscerated in horrible ways.

[Frank] Mine too. I mean I didn't even go into that but like, these skeletons were found in various situations of distress, and yeah.

[Crystal] Well, this -- I think this book is so relevant to your book, too, because it's -- so much of this is built on mythology. And this is what makes this book so strong. Is that I think the mythology, the lore, the setting of it feels so real. That you can open a page and feel like you're entering into this world. The other thing I think is really interesting, especially in comparison to your book, is that yours was very male centered. This is very female centered. So like it's -- I think, in these societies, there are these like, matriarchal lines. So the women are the ones that are in power. They're the warlords. They're the ones that are like leading these armies, these fights. There's a lot of lesbian romances and pairs in it. Although I would not say this is not necessarily like a romantic book, but those relationships are just like sort of there. There's not like a huge -- it's not like abnormal. This is just what this is right? And I just flipped to a page where it's just like bloodiness everywhere, [laughter] gruesome. Can you see it?

[Frank] Oh, well.

[Crystal] One of the things I also like about the book is Maika even though she is 17, she is very hardened character. She is not a Mary Sue type, or any kind of like simpering female character, where things just kind of happened to her. Which is sometimes I see as a trope in a lot of like YA books or, you know, a lot of books in general, right? She is propelling a lot of the stuff that's happening. She has a lot of power. She is very cold, but I think she's struggling with a lot of things. Because I think her mom like, taught her to kind of be that way, in order to protect her. And she in her adventures comes across this little like, small arcanic named Kippa, who is very innocent. And she's kind of like reenacting that kind of mother-child relationship with Kippa. Where, you know, clearly, she cares about Kippa but also is like kind of denying that kind of care because she wants Kippa to like be able to take care of herself, in the kind of the same way that maybe her mom treated her as well. And so I find that to be super interesting. Another strength of this book is like the artwork by Sana Takeda. It's gorgeous. I don't -- there are very few comic books and comic book artists that I would say like the art is, to this level. Maybe one of them would be if you have heard of the comic series, "Saga" by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples. Like that artwork is like super beautiful. But this is just so rich and like vibrant, in how the art is done. Very, very detailed. It has this -- there's definitely steampunk elements in it. And there's this like art deco and I was feeling a little bit like Art Nouveau kind of characteristic to it. I was reading more about Sana Takeda. And I think she talked a bit about some of her influences. And it included some artists like Andrew Wyeth and Edward Hopper.

[Frank] Oh, yeah.

[Crystal] And Andrew Wyeth -- I don't remember the name of that painting, but it's the one where it's like a field with a house, and there's like a woman in the front --

[Frank] Christina's World.

[Crystal] Yes, and I feel like I can see those sort of -- in Edward Hopper too, where you have these like very still figures in the front that are the focal points. And then like the backgrounds, kind of, like blocked off very still. But you also get this like weird sense of movement in all of it, and it's strong. This totally has that quality. The level of detail like here, no one can see this, but Frank can see this.

[Frank] And she's showing me this. Oh, I see.

[Crystal] Where --

[Frank] Oh, it's beautiful.

[Crystal] Yeah, like even say, some of their clothing, right? She draws in the patterns. So it gives us like this textural quality, where it almost seems like brocade or like other materials. And I truly understand why it takes them like a year to get -- which is annoying, I will say. I want them to come out faster --

[Frank] Between installments, yeah.

[Crystal] Yes, yes. So sometimes I'll wait for a lot of comics. Especially once I really like, I'll wait for them to build up for a little bit and I'll read like three or four volumes at once.

[Frank] Oh, clever strategy.

[Crystal] Which -- yeah, I mean, sometimes I get impatient, and I do one by one, but --

[Frank] That's beautiful.

[Crystal] Yeah, and I think [inaudible] also like, I think reference Japanese ukiyo-e, woodblock printing too as an influence. And you can kind of see that. Sort of like the hazy glowing arts. Just really, really beautiful. I don't know what else to say about -- oh, I have more to say, yes. [ Laughter ] This is why I have notes.

[Frank] I know.

[Crystal] Sometimes I feel like I just like ramble. Other interesting things about it. I think it talks about otherness in an interesting way. Because these arcanics, because they're sort of half human, half ancients, they look human, but like sometimes they have -- like Kippa has like little fox ears and the fox tail, you know? So they're kind of like a mix. They are treated horribly. They are, you know, dismembered, eaten, killed recklessly, treated as like the various, like lowest, I guess, caste system. And I think that has interesting things to say about like, what otherness is. Things -- something that like in every society, there's always, I think, an other. I also think that this is a book where for a lot of people who maybe are new to fantasy would enjoy, because even though the art is really fantastical, I think the writing and the voice and dialogue in it is very modern. So it's not like, for example, like "Lord of the Rings," J. R. R. Tolkien where I think sometimes the language can be a little bit of a barrier for access. This is very modern, not at all archaic. So like a quote would be, whenever they're fighting, I think Maika says like, hey, not the real word, but like, hey, b-face, you know? Or I'm going to like effing kill you or something. And because of that, I think it's a very easy entry for a lot of people. What else do I have to say? Oh, I was going to recommend some reader likes to this too. So one would be obviously "Saga" by Brian K. Vaughan and Fiona Staples, which is like a sci-fi, kind of, epic.

[Frank] All graphic novels, right?

[Crystal] Yes, "Wicked + The Divine" is another one. "Fables" is another one. Those are all, I think, series that really build on the theology and have a lot of like lore to it. So people who enjoy that aspect of books will really like those series. And then I was going to kind of recommend the "Shadow and Bone" Netflix series which is based on the "Shadow and Bone" YA book series by Leigh Bardugo. And I think there are kind of similar aspects of that with the kind of, the richness of the setting I think people will enjoy. Yeah, I think that's it for this book.

[Frank] You certainly did your librarian thing there.

[Crystal] Oh, yes. I have to do my readalikes. If you like cats, this is a good one for you.

[Frank] Well, if you like -- what is it? Wolves, then it's not a good book for you. Or what did they have? I forgot. Like the cute little years and tails. You said, wolves right?

[Crystal] There was a fox.

[Frank] Oh, fox.

[Crystal] Because they are like --

[Frank] I knew wolves sounded too aggressive. Not as cute as fox. So if you're a fox fan, don't read this because they get eaten.

[Crystal] Well, no, Kippa -- well, yes. For now Kippa is safe, so --

[Frank] Oh, but they triumph later on getting --

[Crystal] I mean, there's a lot -- I will say this. So this was on the best books for teens list. I think it is okay for older teens. I think there is a lot of violence and gore in this. I think it's probably best suited for adult audiences. I think, you know, if I were to give this to a teen I would maybe like say to them, you know, are you okay with violence and gore? And if they are, I let them make that decision for themselves. [ Laughter ]

[Frank] Are you okay with violence and gore?

[Crystal] Like, I just want people to be aware of it. Because sometimes some imagery can be like really triggering and can be upsetting for people. And there are times when like, I'm okay with reading a scary book. And other times, I'm just like, no, right? There are definitely scary imagery in this. I think it's a little bit light horror, if people have read like Junji Ito, who is just like a very famous, like Manga creator. There are elements of this that kind of remind me of that. And whenever I read Junji Ito, like I have to not read those kinds of books at night, because they scare me and give me nightmares. And I feel like this is a little bit sometimes --

[Frank] That's a good point. Because even reading the book -- well, not even. The reading the book I read, there were a couple of moments that were horrible. And what was most upsetting about them is these, sort of, out of left field or unfairness seeming of the situation. I won't even tell but it's funny, you should say that because when I was reading it, I was thinking, oh, don't let this pop in my head, just as I'm falling asleep. Because sometimes, we all have this at some point. When you're falling asleep, you're okay and then suddenly, you get a flash of maybe something you read, usually for me, and then I'm like, I don't want to think about this, because it's just so horrible. So there are some horrible things in "Sacred Band" as well as you could imagine, violent worlds. But you're right about the, sort of, shifting alliances and allegiances and who battles who and who's on top and who's not? In the worlds of aggression and fight.

[Crystal] I was going to ask you, I think about sometimes like with the way violence is represented in comic books versus reading about it, and which is kind of worse, because, you know, with a graphic novel, you see it physically. However, at the same time, it's also rendered in a -- kind of, for the most part, like, cartoony style. Though, I would not say like, this is like, very cartoony, but it's a weird thing, because sometimes with horror books -- I can read horror comics, because they're constrained within the panel. Like in my head and that kind of imagery. But if I read like a horror novel, I think the limits are my imagination, and my imagination goes to places that are truly scary. And I have a tougher time with horror novels than horror comics.

[Frank] I agree. I think your mind can go farther places than what you've -- what you see in a artistic square, in a graphic novel. I mean, like, for movies, like when the certain movies come out that I've been obsessed with because I'm terrified of them and then I actually see them, it becomes much realer and manageable once I've seen it. And invariably I'm like, oh, okay, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be because I thought it was going to be my own imagination. So yeah, I agree. There are -- Yeah, I think the book -- a book can push it farther in some ways, because then you think of a lot of the things that are not in the -- that's an interesting point you said about the frame. Bounded by the frame, because maybe the act of having a frame -- this is really interesting. A frame gives it finite boundaries. When you're reading a book -- of course, it's within a book that's finite, but somehow it seems less bounded by a frame. And your mind can go a little farther afield. Like there are some moments in the book I read where something terrible has happened, and you get a brief flash of it, because maybe that's all the history we have. And your -- my mind went to like, well, where was he coming from? Or where was he going to? Or what was -- and so you start extrapolating that, and it makes it a little more painful. Interesting about framing something. Boundaries. That's a really nice way to put it, Crystal. When you said something about the frame made it manageable.

[Crystal] Yeah, the panels, yes.

[Frank] The panel, yeah. How interesting. So monstrous. Who is the author again? Say?

[Crystal] Marjorie Liu and Sana Takeda.

[Frank] Right, okay. And I --

[Crystal] Oh, see here, look at this image of the cute war cats.

[Frank] Oh, my God. [ Laughter ] The audience needs to see this because they are, sort of, incredibly cute. That looked like an old like, sort of Russian poster.

[Crystal] And he was meant to, because --

[Frank] Military --

[Crystal] -- at the end of each chapter, or like, I guess each issue, they'll do excerpts from this cat named Professor Tam Tam, who like kind of -- [ Laughter ] -- teaches about --

[Frank] Professor Tam Tam.

[Crystal] Teaches about the, like history of this world. And sometimes there's this kind of artifacts or archival images and newspapers that kind of help with the world building, I think, too, but that's the other thing too. I love that there are these horrifying, scary images, where people and animals are being ripped apart. And then there's two cats, and it just goes -- it goes back and forth.

[Frank] I love the picture you showed because the cats were just like [barking noise], they were like fierce little -- but then they're whiskery cats, doing fierce face.

[Crystal] Oh, there's the -- there's a cat named Tanno, who I think has like a patch. And is this kind of pirate-y, I don't know. This is -- this book is just really amazing. Also if you look, the cats are fighting in this picture. I feel like this is turning to story time with me [inaudible] all these pictures. [ Laughter ]

[Frank] She can't resist showing me these pictures. I just have these -- that's really a good sell.

[Crystal] The cover of number -- is this is number two? No, Volume 3. The cover has the -- kind of --

[Frank] Oh, Neil Gaiman and --

[Crystal] Even picture.

[Frank] -- give it a good mark and ambitious as George Martin and --

[Crystal] George R. R. Martin, J. R. R. Tolkien, LA Review of Books at the lights, Neil Gaiman [laughs].

[Frank] I'd say that's a solid wreck. Now I can show you something. Do you love a book that has in its flyleaf, a map? Do you see that?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Like the book has the map of ancient Greece. And so you get like, it's -- I kept flipping back --

[Crystal] That's not where the camera -- okay, yes.

[Frank] Well, I don't know what I'm doing. Anyway it's like there's a, like a map in the front and I love that. So you can sort of fantasize about where everything is, or at least know where everything is. And also, what's there today. Well, that was quite a journey you just took me on darling. Thank you. Oh, so we also should talk about the book we're going to read together.

[Crystal] Oh, wait, I did have one more recommendation.

[Frank] Oh boy.

[Crystal] Side note.

[Frank] All right. [ Laughter ] Go!

[Crystal] This was just for the library workers, or -- because you mentioned before that there are people who work in libraries that sometimes listen?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] I did read a book called " Knowledge Justice: Disrupting Library and Information Studies Through Critical Race Theory," which has a lot to do with librarianship, the Information Studies field. So if you are interested in those kinds of things, I would recommend that book. It's edited by Sofia Leung, and Jorge R. Lopez-McKnight. There's a lot of contributors to the book, including Anastasia Chiu, Fobazi Ettarh, April Hathcock, Jen Brown, Jenny Ferretti, Nicholae Cline. Some of these are folks that work at NYU, some are colleagues of mine, and it's all available as an open access edition on the MIT Press website. So I found it to be like a really fascinating collection of essays that really helped me think about my role in Information Studies and what I can do to maybe, like, sort of change the status quo. So I highly recommend it for everyone.

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] Five Crystal Nickels for that book. [ Laughter ] "Monstress," I give --

[Frank] She's still trying to make that a thing. Okay.

[Crystal] "Monstress," I give it 15 Crystal Nickels out of five, because five for each volume.

[Frank] Oh, okay.

[Crystal] So, there you go.

[Frank] Crystal Nickels. What was my thing again? Frank's Franc?

[Crystal] Frank's Francs, Frank's Francs.

[Frank] Franks Franc?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Still not playing your game. Sorry. You could do your crystal nickeling all you want, but I'm not Frank franking it until I feel it, because I'm grown. And I don't have to follow along just because of peer pressure.

[Crystal] Exactly. No peer pressure here.

[Frank] Aww, now I --

[Crystal] Do it when you want to do it.

[Frank] -- now that made me want to be involved. Because I was like, when you're given the freedom, it's like, okay. But when you're told not to, it's like, oh, I'm going to fight like that kitty cat in that picture you showed me. But that's -- we'll list the MIT book --

[Crystal] Yes, I'll -- yes.

[Frank] Or on our blog post, along with the books we talked about. So but we're going to read together for Pride Month, a book from the list, which I don't ever remember the name of.

[Crystal] Recent LGBTQ reads from both familiar and fresh voices is the --

[Frank] Okay, recent --

[Crystal] -- blog post title. Yes, recent.

[Frank] And that book will be "Memorial" by Bryan Washington, which I know certainly has been recommended to me by patrons in the library. And then when our producer mentioned it, before we talked today, I was like, that's -- I always feel magical about reading a book when I hear it mentioned in certain -- in different disparate areas. Like when someone unrelated to someone else, they both mention it, I feel like I have to read it. Like it's the gods are telling me to. So we're going to read "Memorial" by Bryan Washington. So I'm looking forward to that for the next time, right?

[Crystal] I'm very excited for it.

[Frank] Right, okay. Well, anything else, darling? Or I think you did enough. I mean, you did great. I mean, I'm not sure --

[Crystal] Am I doing the most? Yes.

[Frank] Maybe I shouldn't drink coffee during these things, because I get too talkie.

[Crystal] But we have to talk for the -- [ Laughter ] -- so we should keep drinking coffee.

[Frank] Well, as long as you're not overwhelmed by my exuberance, I appreciate that. Aww, I'm like aww, love fest. All right, darling. So we'll -- Thank you everybody out there for listening. And we'll see you next time when we -- when Crystal and I discuss Bryan Washington's "Memorial." See you soon.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In. A podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast or Google Play or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We were produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.