Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In!

Are you ready for Frank and Crystal's first book club discussion together? Settle in as they discuss Insurrecto by Gina Apostol from the Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Reading List for adults. 

Insurrecto by Gina Apostol 

While on a road trip in Duterte’s Philippines, two women, a Filipino translator and an American filmmaker, both collaborate and clash in the writing of a film script about a massacre during the Philippine-American war. (Publisher summary.)

And before they sign off for the week, Crystal gives Frank a mini-ASMR quiz! Can you guess the object before Frank does? (Need a hint? Psssst....scroll up!)

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Welcome everybody to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about, I don't know, books, culture, what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I am Crystal.

[Frank] You're Crytal.

[Crystal] Or Crytal as I wrote into my camera.

[Frank] Crytal, exactly. C-R-Y-T-A-L, Crytal. Crytal. The Crytal and Frank show. So how are you, hun?

[Crystal] I'm all right. I definitely need another cup of coffee, but other than that I'm fine.

[Frank] Well, I'm sure coffee can be arranged it's just you should have planned ahead.

[Crystal] But like I told Christy, I don't know how to work the coffee maker in the branch. So that's why I'm just sipping my hot water.

[Frank] You don't know how to work the coffee maker. That's not a good thing. It's usually the first thing I learn. If I ever go, it's funny, if I ever travel or go to a friend's or whatever the first thing I think about is what's the coffee situation going to be like in the morning so I can know if I have to go out I'll do it, if I have to make it I'll do it, so.

[Crystal] I mean, I'm generally a tea drinker so I feel like just it's a lot easier just plop the bag in and you're good.

[Frank] True. Actually, a friend of mine once said years ago that a genius invention would be coffee bags. And I thought that was true but now instantly it occurs to me that's basically instant coffee. You just put a teaspoon of coffee in hot water is the same thing. But I guess the steeping action might make it feel more genuine and that the coffee is like, you know, getting brewed.

[Crystal] That's a great business idea.

[Frank] Well, take it. This is like 30 years ago and nothing has happened. I think there are coffee bags in other countries, but I'm not sure.

[Crystal] You know, I'll build a new business idea off of this one and try to get Gwen in as an investor as I do with all my business ideas.

[Frank] Gwen?

[Crystal] Yes. I --

[Frank] -- Who's Gwen?

[Crystal] You're Gwen.

[Frank] I know, I'm kidding. Oh, she was like two podcast hosts ago. No, I'm kidding. I miss Gwen and Wanda.

[Crystal] I know.

[Frank] And I miss you. Oh, no, you're still here. Let's see there.

[Crystal] And so are my business ideas --

[Frank] -- I know, right?

[Crystal] Right.

[Frank] That's why I have attachment issues. But I persist. Speaking of persisting as you mentioned before we jumped on air, the libraries, New York public libraries are open more starting yesterday for I think you and me.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] We've just escalated from grab and go to browsing and computer use. No sitting down and chillaxing yet but browsing and computer use. And I felt the vibe was really nice yesterday at Hudson Park where I am. People are very grateful, convivial, browsy, getting new cards. you know what, a steady flow --

[Crystal] -- Yeah.

[Frank] -- of engaged people which is all I can ask for.

[Crystal] Yeah, it's --

[Frank] -- How about you?

[Crystal] Yeah, same. It's nice to see like when we do open at 11:00 there are people that come in immediately ready to use the computers to get their work or whatever they need to do done. And I like the fact that like, you know, we have patrons coming and they're like asking for book suggestions and now like I can help them search for books. So it's nice, it's a nice vibe for sure.

[Frank] It's interesting though like the -- you know, depending on one's personality. The not unpleasant feeling came back that I hadn't felt in a while that sort of energized emotion of dealing with different people, like and with different needs. Like getting hit all of a sudden so to speak with, "I need this, can you help me with this, can you help me with this?" I mean that sort of that's the definition of what we do. And so I love it, but it was instantly like, oh, I remember this juggling people and requests and wanting to figure out how to go the extra mile to help somebody. You know, it's just a different kind of stress, but not in a negative way. It's just like a, "Oh, this is what our job is," after a year of doing it minimally.

[Crystal] Yeah, definitely feels like it's muscles that you haven't used for a while, and then you kind of need to kind of stretch them out. I feel --

[Frank] -- That's the perfect way to put it.

[Crystal] Yeah. I feel the same way about like our Sierra like our, what's that called, our like database program that we used for checkouts like trying to kind of relearn that a little bit too because I've been a little out of practice using it.

[Frank] It has to be like a bicycle because I heard other staff get -- say the same thing they're nervous about using our system. The minute it pops up I feel like it comes back, right?

[Crystal] Yeah, it does, it does, for sure. Yeah.

[Frank] It just comes right back. So I mean I have other stresses because Jefferson Market is still not open, it won't be until late summer. And now that we've opened and expanded the library services the staff of JM have to be redistributed again to different branches, including me to go where there is a manager needed and the other staff go where staff is needed because all the buildings are going to be open certainly in the summer that can be open. So I'm finding that a little -- I was sort of immersed in the book we discussed this morning and then I got distracted because I have to send staff in conjunction with my boss decide where the staff is going to go for the next four or five months until we come back to Jefferson Market. And that's stressful because I want everyone to be happy and I realized the control I'm very conscious or try to be and because I'm confident on my own life and how it impacts me. But how your life can be impacted by others' decisions and how it can be made better or worse by those decisions. Like you arbitrarily say, "Oh, you're going to go to this branch," and then it's like a hardship to travel to or there's other unforeseen issues. And I want to make the best choice as possible and sort of navigating that, you know, when do I have to say, "All right, this needs to happen because this is our job, we have to do it"?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Like I'm not going to really have a choice where I go because I have to go where a manager is needed. So I just have to do it, but as a manager of staff I do want the staff to feel like the next couple of months are going to be at least relatively unimpactful but I'll do the best I can. So it's on my mind, but whatever.

[Crystal] I think that is really difficult and talking with like colleagues a lot of them who are being kind of spread out different branches to go where they're needed. It's tough. I hope it's going to be only for a short time where -- which seems like it will be and things will hopefully normalize a little bit as more branches open and things like that. I do feel somewhat lucky and that like our branch has always been in a good-bad way but like always been the first branch to open, the first branch to kind of go in different phases because our renovation was finished in like I want to say like 2016 or something. And so I've not had to deal with that, but seeing -- because we have staff members who are here who are from Melrose and Morrisania.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] And they're fantastic and some of them are leaving. I'm just like, "No, they're part of our family now, you can't leave us." But you know.

[Frank] I mean, changes could be good and fun and interesting and you learn a lot. I mean, I certainly had a great time over at Hudson Park. Anyway, I'll deliver that news when it happens, it's happening this week but you know.

[Crystal] Hey, Frank.

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] Send some people to Woodstock. Send them over here all the way in the Bronx.

[Frank] Well, we are in the lower Manhattan network so that's a little bit of a hike considering what staff might be used to. But --

[Crystal] -- It's fun here.

[Frank] -- I don't think anyone lives in the Bronx anymore. No, there is -- there are two staff that live there, South Bronx. I'll look into it. You know how the network managers want to keep the people in their network.

[Crystal] Yeah. I know. We do have a backyard, so just putting it put there.

[Frank] Do you? Are you doing outdoor programming this summer?

[Crystal] I think we are. So that will be pretty interesting. It's a really nice space. I think like when I maybe visited for that previous podcast I think there's like pictures of the backyard possibly.

[Frank] There's people here under construction?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Here we go again, everybody. One of these days I won't be able to do live from Jefferson Market like this, it will be too much. But --

[Crystal] La Stanza, New York.

[Frank] La Stanza, New York, drinking coffee listening to a jackhammer. [ Laughter ] Everybody out there reading your collections or just dreaming with Crystal's and my voice in your head, welcome to New York. So well outdoor space, yeah, outdoor programming. I have some outdoor programming planned. I mean the Jefferson Market has a garden next door and I'm going to do an art class in the garden in the summer and --

[Crystal] -- Oh, that's good.

[Frank] -- a couple of other possibilities. Sorry. Why are you guys in here? Just speak up, Crystal, so I can hear your beautiful voice. You know, I really should get really serious headphones probably that really do this.

[Crystal] Oh, yeah, that block your -- the sound. It's gone now.

[Frank] Yeah, they stopped. Okay. Actually, that makes a difference.

[Crystal] Does it? And it looks great too.

[Frank] Now I'm hearing you focused.

[Crystal] Yeah. It also looks really great on camera --

[Frank] I know you look very profesh.

[Crystal] -- doing this.

[Frank] Very profesh.

[Crystal] Although sometimes if I want to eavesdrop on people I do this, I cut my ear and it actually does work.

[Frank] Does it really?

[Crystal] I hear further or if somebody is behind me you do this. I mean, it's very obvious but I don't care.

[Frank] Or like putting a glass to the wall, which --

[Crystal] -- Well, I've never tried that. I feel like our doors are too thick here which is the downside of this location.

[Frank] I don't know if that really works.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Ways to surveil not using a computer. So --

[Crystal] -- It's for my future career, yes.

[Frank] As an -- as private eye?

[Crystal] Yeah. I mean, it's $400 to get a private eye license in New York.

[Frank] Wait, what?

[Crystal] It's $400 to get a PI license in New York. I've looked it up.

[Frank] Because you've looked into it?

[Crystal] I have looked into it.

[Frank] Are you serious?

[Crystal] Yeah. I'm trying to convince one of my colleagues, you know Katrina Ortega, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] I've been trying to convince her to be a PI with me. [brief laughter]

[Frank] The many lives of Crystal Chen.

[Crystal] So abandon our steady jobs to become a private investigator, yeah.

[Frank] Like would you be armed?

[Crystal] I don't want to be armed. I as suggesting that maybe we could use some kind of like private investigation where we use our library skills like genealogy history or researching things, I don't know. This is probably a bad idea.

[Frank] A little mystified. I immediately thought it could be a book about a private eye who uses just library skills.

[Crystal] Yeah, right.

[Frank] No violence.

[Crystal] Like digital private investigation I feel like I would be good at that possibly.

[Frank] Yeah. When someone is coming at you, you can just like weighing a Webster's Dictionary up and --

[Crystal] -- True.

[Frank] -- kablam, Crystal. That's a graphic novel. Let's get on that, another idea. Speaking of books, we're here for a reason and we're just prattling on about various and sundry. I did bring up something was bothering me which why not. But we were just to read -- we read "Insurrecto" by Gina Apostol which I found out that's how you say it, Apostol. Apostol.

[Crystal] Apostol. I've been saying Apistol.

[Frank] Apistol. I know.

[Crystal] Apistol.

[Frank] It's like Crystal.

[Crystal] Because it rhymes with Crystal I think maybe that's why like in my head --

[Frank] -- Maybe Crystal, Apostol. Or like apostle or postal, Apastol, Apostol. Crystal, Apostol. Gina Apostol who wrote "Insurrecto" and you recommended that we read this from the Asian American Pacific Islander list, is that correct? AAPI?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Of best books, it's a best books list or recommended books?

[Crystal] Well, it's if it's in their book finder, it's there for the month of May for AAPI Heritage Month and it's based off of these blog posts that I wrote in conjunction with other youth -- Chinese American youth librarians. So that's like Michelle Lee, Susen Shi, and Christy Lau. And so we worked on these blog posts together and then it got like aggregated into the book finder, so.

[Frank] Oh, so you worked on this list? How come I didn't --

[Crystal] -- Yes.

[Frank] -- remember that?

[Crystal] But I also --

[Frank] -- But you didn't take this book because you haven't read it, you wanted to?

[Crystal] Yes. We based it off -- like we compiled different books that we had read, this is one of the ones I had not personally read but there were other ones that I had read, so we kind of --

[Frank] -- Right. I know.

[Crystal] Yeah. It was a lot easier to kind of split the work out that way.

[Frank] Right. When you work on a list you can't read every single book, unfortunately, that's one of the secrets, but that's why there's a committee.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Who on the list recommended this one? Or you don't have to say but one would be good.

[Crystal] We did this list last year so I know who recommended it.

[Frank] Oh, just someone like one of your compadres.

[Crystal] Maybe Michelle. I feel like myself and Michelle, we read more like adult books even though we're both like youth librarians.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] So youth.

[Frank] Yes, youth.

[Crystal] I say youth to include Christy because she's children's whereas Michelle, myself, and Susen are young adults teen librarians.

[Frank] Christy is a cutie magoo.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I met, I know her. So --

[Crystal] -- And a great baker.

[Frank] She's a baker?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Really?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] See, everyone has hidden talents. You're a private eye, Christy is a baker.

[Crystal] Well, it's not a talent because I'm not good at it.

[Frank] I'm nothing.

[Crystal] It's not true.

[Frank] We haven't started yet.

[Crystal] That's true.

[Frank] Could we talk about this book, please?

[Crystal] You could be a private eye with me.

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] You could be a private eye with me. It's only $400 and I'm sure lots of testing and maybe --

[Frank] Right, just $400 and automatically you are a magnificent private eye I'd be like knocked out in the first day. I don't even know how to figure it out --

[Crystal] I've watched enough "Veronica Mars" that I think I would be good at it.

[Frank] I'm not --

[Crystal] -- That's my research.

[Frank] See, I would be a good sidekick in that I'm a better collaborator I think and I'm not really detail-oriented, which is unusual for a librarian. I think according to those Myers-Briggs tests I cannot really see details as detailed as other people do. So I'd have to follow along and I'd be like, "Oh let's go over," I'd just be like your sidekick. Does that have a reduced price like $200?

[Crystal] Talk to New York State about that. I don't think they'll reduce that price.

[Frank] Anyway, "Insurrecto," dear, let's get to the book. Everyone is chomping at the bit waiting for us to explain in our brilliant minds this book. Which I was interested who recommended it because it's definitely a book I have not picked up, a kind of book I have not picked up in a while the way it's written subject matter for sure, but like just this, the way in which Gina Apostol's mind works and how she translates that line to the page. So it's a different experience than what I seek out sometimes, you know, which is I'm always glad to do that because it's like might not have picked something up and I'm always glad I did. And I just honestly believe you can, even if you have reactions to a book that or not so-called positive, the more I think about it the more I realize I can talk about it in a positive way which I believe in. Like because it's a mind on-page, and it deserves the respect of that attention and you can find, there's so much to find, you know. I have said this before, the first reaction of like I don't like it is just the starting point. That's not an endpoint to me. You can't end there really I think when it comes to books, you just can't. I mean, sometimes you just have to put something aside I guess, but you know what I mean. I just feel like it's a good starting point. I guess I'm sort of indicating that I had a hard time with this book in the way I did but there's a lot to talk about. I mean, how do you feel relating to this discussion?

[Crystal] I agree. Like it was a book that I think normally I don't seek out. I think sometimes I like books that are much more souvenir in how the narration comes out. But I like really, really enjoyed it. Like I think the first few chapters I was like, "Okay. Where are we going with this? This is such like a strange kind of setup." But as it moved along I really found it to be kind of a fun read, which is weird to say considering some of the subject matter. But there were things in it that were sort of intriguing, confusing, I kind of like that aspect of it. It's a book that I can see myself rereading and finding more things from but I don't -- I definitely I feel like a lot of stuff went over my head. I'm like, "I know I'm not at the level of brilliance that this author is at but I am enjoying the write."

[Frank] I think Gina Apostol would be happy to hear that I think it's a ride that she wants you to just join and, you know, not get worried if you don't understand everything but just keep going. And like you said considering some of the subject matter it was fun, I think there is a lot of humor here like she's bringing a lot of her particular humor on subjects that are tough. So I think she wants you to go on that ride. And like you said to this linear aspect, I don't like terms like this. I'd like to figure out other terms, but I can explicate it but in lots of ways, this definitely is what is called something in the postmodern vein. And postmodern as I'm going to mean it or as I understand in this context, which of course we could debate that for a long time, is sort of this sense of that meeting isn't stable. Meaning is unstable, that you can find meaning in lots of different places in lots of different ways. You can also decide meaning is -- exists in places where the society in which you live or the social construct in which you live does not think should have meaning. Like this book for -- I mean, we haven't even talked to what it's really about. I mean, I guess we should. I mean, it has to do with Philippines history in a very broad sense. So I was as an example of this postmodern way of thinking is that she talks a lot about in the book about Elvis Presley and his music playing throughout the book and the impact on Filipino culture. And you could argue in a postmodern way that Elvis Presley his glory required the appropriation, for lack of a better word, of black music some would say and his commodification of it through his own genius made him the Elvis we may know and love. In the same way that Philippines history through its American imperial takeover, America you could say needs that colonization in order to be America, to be that powerful thing. And some people might say, "That's stupid, like that -- what is that correlation?" But that's the kind of thing that Gina Apostol does, I mean she brings in like a pop culture thing and equates it to something very, very as we would call so-called serious. And that's what I think is the postmodern instability of meaning that you could find meaning in so many different places. And I think part of that is true. I think a song that we heard when we were children that weaves its way through our lives the rest of our lives like that's an important emotional component of your makeup. And I think this kind of postmodernist way of looking at things brings that to the fore. And it can be quite enjoyable. I was even thinking about you about understanding some of the references. Like there was one part where one of the soldiers is talking and as he's talking he's basically if you did -- he's talking in the lyrics of a Dolly Parton-Kenny Rogers song.

[Crystal] Oh, I miss that.

[Frank] Called "Islands in the Stream." And I even wrote a note saying, "Does Crystal get this reference?" Because that song came out when I -- like in the early '80s.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So I knew it was like, you know, "Islands in the stream, that is what we are, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. We rely on each other ah-ha. From another to another." Anyway, I knew the song and so I got that sort of like reference, and I was like, "I wonder if Crystal picked up." But I didn't pick up other ones I'm sure because I don't know Elvis that well. Anyway, it sounds like this is all about pop culture songs, but it's about a lot more as I hope I indicated that there are like in that postmodern way and anyone out there can school me on postmodernism, please. There's a lot of other references brought in, some very serious, some very violent, some very funny. But go ahead.

[Crystal] Well, I was going to say like I actually have a quote relating to some of the songs that you're talking about. And I'll -- it was Chapter 20, but there's like a million 28 chapters like --

[Frank] Well, that's the thing in this meaningful way, chapters are not organized in linear fashion.

[Crystal] No and they're repeated.

[Frank] You start with Chapter 26 and then there's a couple of Chapter 1's we could talk more about those ones.

[Crystal] Oh, many Chapter 1's, yes? But so one of the 28ths there's a quote in there where Magsalin came to America. So she writes, "It was a shock when she arrived in America, and she recognized that the culture she had thought was hers to sneer at was, all along, not really. The corny songs were claimed by others. That made her sad. Worse, her own culture, of the fermented coconuts and demented singers, was not visible at first in New York - except maybe in the vagabond diesel from hotdog trucks that gave off the whiff of jeepney smog. But even that missed the necessary attachment of the smell of fish balls. "Sweet Caroline" was the Boston Red Sox song, not Tio Exequiel's signature karaoke anthem. No one, not even Tio Exequiel's oldest brother, Tio Nemesio, clearly a better tenor was allowed to sing it. But it was also owned by this humongous sports fandom in arena of phenomenal passion." And I just thought like that was such as an interesting quote because it's this realization when she realizes like this song that she's grown up with in the Philippines was something that originated from America and that really changes that kind of personal history for her, right? But the other interesting part of that and I think this book really explores too is that kind of realization also really changes her ideas of what America is because how did that song get to the Philippines like that? It's through colonization, right? And so that kind of recursiveness is like really interesting. And I also want to say too with, you know, the idea of like postmodernism is something that for me mentally is like this hurts my brain. But the way that I've always understood it especially in relation to art was just this kind of idea that when the representation of the real thing starts to almost become more real than the real thing itself, right, that's that postmodern aspect. And in like silly ways I say like, you know, if you ever played the game "Animal Crossing" like there's a postmodern aspect to that where like even within the game like the light starts to change with like the outside world and it starts to become more real than like your own reality. And I see this in this story where there are these kinds of dueling scripts that are happening and there are these moments where it seems like it's the scripts in this movie being made but then it starts to kind of shift and it starts to feel really, really real. Like they were in a movie, they're making the script and all of a sudden people are being like hacked to death and the descriptions of that are not as if these are props or this is like done in a movie. It's kind of gone back to the reality of that past and those shifts are very seamless and it's very disorienting but in the interesting like good way I think. I enjoyed it.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah. Just as you indicated the plot, I mean it sort of include -- it sort of -- yeah, you could talk about the plot. But it has the underpinnings of a daughter of a filmmaker, a white woman from America, and Magsalin, the Filipino translator who also has roots in America but is from the Philippines. And the filmmaker lady gal needs a translator for her film she wants to make, which is riffing on her own father who was a filmmaker, his film that he made in Southeast Asia about war in Vietnam, right? Yeah. Sort of like Coppola in "Apocalypse Now." So that's sort of the -- and then you said the dueling scripts like Chiara the white girl is like -- don't call her that, the filmmaker gal is -- wrote her script and then Magsalin has a response script in a way of her own. She's a writer, she wants to write a mystery book. And so she has her own dueling scripts and that's even what the chapters are called. So it's not written as a screenplay but it's sort of the plot of the scripts that are playing out and these sometimes merge, you don't know who's talking at certain points or whose viewpoint it is. Sometimes it's very surprising about the characters that are brought up and they all -- both scripts have certain mirror characters with similar even sounding names. I mean doubling is a big thing in the book about having a double. I mean, actually, that reminds me of a quote which goes along with what we're talking about at the beginning, which is almost like a warning or an invitation. Because almost at the beginning on page 3 Gina Apostol writes, "Everything could be a sign. A word has at least two meanings, all of them could be correct and it's just not right to jump to conclusions." So she's basically saying, "Come join me on my free-for-all. I'm going to kaleidoscope you through some of the weird stuff in my brain and I hope you enjoy it." Ooh. So I pulled out my earphones. So that's sort of right off of the bat so she's saying. And some people I could see would be frustrated by saying, "I don't want things to have at least two meanings and both of them be right, I want you --" I mean, partly talking for myself, but not completely. I want you the author to tell me what you think is the right meaning, what your meaning is. I want to know your meaning. I don't want you to throw up a bunch of confetti and see where it lands and I have to make up the meaning. Or you can give me multiple meanings, I don't want that. And that's I think some people criticize postmodernism is that it's just sort of like well, if nothing means anything or if everything means something then what is -- how are we advancing the culture? If we're just saying like, sure, you know, Dolly Parton is as important as like the hacking to death of a general or they both have meaning and they're both equitable meaning what does that say? How does that advance u, how does that sort of give a moral landscape? It's not as black and white or is cut and dry as it might be making it. It's something that obviously people discuss and think about a lot. And then -- oh, I'm sorry. The one other quote like I just happen to see on page 100 was like, or page 103 is Magsalin is thinking about writing and she says, you know, there's that faulty notion that everything in a book must be grasped.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] She calls those the coevals. So it's like a coeval to think that everything you read has to be understood and like, I'm like by the time I go to page 103 I was like, "I get you," because I didn't understand some of the things I just went through and there's too much -- 200 more pages of it. So I was like, "Okay," and I even wrote thank you in my notes because I was just like, "Thanks for just saying that," because I really had a hard time with some of the things. So and so the -- we should say the two characters, the filmmaker from America and the Filipino translator are work -- the script they're working on has to do with this little-known I guess even though I feel like it loom so large in my own brain now because of this book, massacre or insurrection or revolution. It's up for debate what the term is for this event.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] It's also up for debate is who's deciding what to call it because it was -- it's a long history, but it was basically Philippine, Filipinos, is that the correct term for aggregated Philippine people, Filipinos? I guess, yeah.

[Crystal] Filipino, yeah.

[Frank] Okay. I want to use the words, I want to use neutral words but I can't find them. Anyway, they just revolt let's say the American occupation military in the small town called Balagina. I knew I'd mess that up. Balangiga.

[Crystal] Balangiga, Balangiga.

[Frank] Balangiga, that's it, Balangiga. They revolt against the military, they basically kill all the American military that's present barb a couple. And then there's a humongous American retaliation against Philippines who killed way, way more. I mean like 48 people were killed in the insurrection let's say Americans and then the Americans killed like anywhere up to 30,000. Like there's different --

[Crystal] -- Yeah.

[Frank] -- again, counting things that we know about this pandemic, like counting anywhere from 2,000 to 30,000 that's been listed as killed, so.

[Crystal] Yeah. She says that at the end it depends on who's counting.

[Frank] Yeah, exactly. And so that brings us to also who's telling the story and who, and this is a big part of the book, who has a right to tell the story. So like from the American point of view it was an insurrection because the Americans were there to colonize the Philippines and therefore make them a part of the American way. I mean as a protector, as a supposedly protector and the Philippines thought not so much is a back story that which I might get into. But and so the Americans would call it an insurrection, but the Philippines would call it a revolution. So "Insurrecto" is a -- is sort of a, as far as I understood it, it's a disparaging term for an insurrectionist.

[Crystal] Yeah, that's what it seems like.

[Frank] Right. So it's interesting about how that -- I mean, there's a -- the whole military aspect is actually very interesting about the real-life general called Howling Wilderness. Yeah. Because after the insurrection of, or the revolution of Americans being killed, this general came in and he was like, "I want this town to be a howling wilderness. I don't want one person standing alive. You know, it'll make me happy." And he said, "Any male over 10 who can carry a gun should be killed." That's horrible.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] And then there's funny parts.

[Crystal] Yeah, for sure.

[Frank] I mean a lot. She definitely has a sense of humor and let -- and believes in talking about harsh, seemingly harsh things with a sense of humor, which some people may or may not like. But you clearly did, Crystal. Jacob Howl, yeah, Jacob Howling Wilderness Smith, kill and burn to please me.

[Crystal] We were talking about this a little earlier before we started recording even like how the names of the soldiers shifted, like the idea of those kinds of two different perspectives that were happening. Like the soldier Frick and the soldier Frank.

[Frank] Oh, yeah.

[Crystal] How like --

[Frank] Prank, yeah.

[Crystal] Prank.

[Frank] Yeah, Frick was called a word we can't say, Frank was called Prank.

[Crystal] Which I think is consistent with the language in the Philippines. I think is Tagalog, right, where like maybe the F sounds turn into P sounds or something.

[Frank] Oh, right. She says it at one point. Oh, no. It was a review I read about Jennifer or is it Jennifer?

[Crystal] Yes. I actually read that same article, the New York Times like --

[Frank] -- Yeah, I think I read the review, just as a little backup.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah, you did, interesting. So yeah, I didn't know that about the Philippine language or Tagalog or Waray, another -- there's like --

[Crystal] -- Waray?

[Frank] -- 20 languages in the Philippines.

[Crystal] No, it's over 100 I think.

[Frank] Oh, over 100, Jesus.

[Crystal] Like 100, 100, and something.

[Frank] See how I am falsely. Sorry. Research everything you hear or say.

[Crystal] But oh, I was going to say like that going back to like your earlier comments about those like two opposing perspectives and how like there's that kind of doubling that keeps reoccurring in this in a lot of ways. And also too like the fact that they have these scripts that they're kind of acting out the even the larger book feels like a script too where Magsalin and Chiara are almost like acting in their own movie and script too, which is like very meta and sort of interesting. But I was going to go back to -- they keep bringing up the stereo images, which I mean like let's tie it to the library, right? We have a lot of stereo images in our digital collection which is how I know about --

[Frank] -- I'm rolling my eyes.

[Crystal] I know.

[Frank] You're such a librarian. Oh my God.

[Crystal] Because I think years ago there used to be this NYPL digital project called like NYPL Labs and there was like lots of cool stuff. And one of the things that they did was they would take these stereo images and they would overlay them into GIFs and I think it's still like available maybe like we can link to it or something. But --

[Frank] -- It's like the stereos, I can't talk to this stereoscopic, yeah, images. They're --

[Crystal] -- I vaguely remember those we had them. Yes, right?

[Frank] See I would know this. It's basically a double image that you put into the viewer I think one that is called a home viewer in the book she talks about. She talks a lot about these stereoscopic images and the viewers that view them around the turn of last century, 1890s. And so if you look at the two images through this viewer they merge and become 3D, three-dimensional.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] She even talks, Gina, in the book about the evolution to View-Masters. See you're too young, I had a View-Master it was literally like this thing you put to your eyes like a viewer and you click something and you'd go from slide, it's like a mini slide projector for your eyes.

[Crystal] Was it like reddish and then it was like a -- I think I can vaguely remember that.

[Frank] Well vaguely. And I just thought when I -- ow! When I read that part in the book I was like I remember I could lie in my bedroom floor and just look at that thing for a while and I just, of course, made me think about kids today, you know, with their tabloids can look at videos and like, you know, full-blown Hollywood productions right in their bedroom, on their bedroom floor. Where I couldn't do that I just had these static images in the View-Master but yet it's a memory and it's real and it's fun and I'm fond of it. And there's meaning there to be postmodern.

[Crystal] Isn't it the sort of this is like the origin of virtual reality kind of, right, like the very opening beginning steps of that in some way because you're looking into this, I don't know, viewfinder thing. But I mean she brings them constantly in the work --

[Frank] -- Yeah.

[Crystal] -- the stereo images. And I think like it's really interesting the idea that it takes those two different perspectives because with the stereo images was like two side by side and one from like one perspective and one from a slightly shifted perspective and then that forms that 3D image like you said. And how I think was the book with different characters all are doubling like that's what it's doing. It's that with that kind of two different perspectives the shifting back and forth it's like forming this fuller image of what's happening and how, you know, on a larger scale like America's history is tied with the Philippines history, right? And how those are not separatable, if that's a word, yeah.

[Frank] That's such a -- you just -- actually focused something for me, thank you. I didn't quite understand the doubling connotation like what that meant and that does make sense. Because she's not, the author of "Insurrecto" is not against Americans or pro, 100% pro-Philippines. I mean she is having shifting meaning here and the two experiences, Chiara and Magsalin are both legit and discussable and they do merge. And like at the quote I said like, you know, every word has at least two meanings all of them could be correct. You know, I mean that's a very interesting way to take on a violent episode in one zones nation's history, you know, you could say almost magnanimous. Maybe not that's not the word it's almost like the -- well, the belief in that truth is shifting it does shift and what is truth and who tells the story? You know, like who is telling the story. It's so interesting. It's so interesting because like part of it may be every -- I get very glazed over when I read about military conflicts or wars sometimes it doesn't so-called excite me, I mean we just read "All Quiet on the Western Front" because there was a huge emotional component. Because I never understand why in my brain like who it -- so why did Belgium get into the war again? And why is this? And if you read the book on World War I or the Lusitania by Erik Larson, I can't remember the title. But it's about the basic the evolution of World War I and some of the positive, you know, the something is positive or so it seems so minor like an almost mistaken. In other words, I did -- I went back just to think about the history of the insurrection or the revolution in Philippines in 18 -- in 1901.

[Crystal] 1901, yeah.

[Frank] Yeah. And it -- to see what's going on. And so it started Cuba, which is a Spanish colony in the 1898 was fighting for independence from Spain. America had a warship, the USS Maine in Cuban waters to there -- to sort of look over their American interest in Cuba, not to be a part of the revolution from Cuba to Spain. But the USS Maine sunk and that started America's -- the Spanish-American War, America against Spain. And then the Spanish-American War when that was resolved three months later turned into the Philippine-American War because Spain gave America Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico, and Philippines as part of the settlement. And the Philippines were like, "No," and the America was like, "You must love to be a part of America, yes." And that's what started that war. And the insurrection/revolution occurred within that. But the USS Maine is still under debate of how it sunk, some people have said that it was an internal engine problem. So what that does mean? An internal engine problem started a war? Because it was perceived as a violent act that the war -- the USS Maine was sunk as in retaliation or an aggressive act. Whether or not it was true and no one knows if it was true. What were you going to say?

[Crystal] Oh no, I was just going to like comment somewhat randomly about how like it's interesting when you like go back into history and look at history how it can be kind of distilled into this very kind of like clear events, not clear in this case. But you're able to kind of separate it out but thinking about like, you know, obviously we've been living in very interesting times so when you're actually living that experience like you don't -- it's really hard to see it as those really clear events. I know I just thought it was interesting, yeah.

[Frank] That's what I think about a lot of the debates happening about identity and the social debates about identity, identity politics, and things like that. Sometimes I just think, we're in the middle of this debate like some side say like this is ridiculous, another they say this is necessary. But I sometimes think we're in the middle of a social upheaval that might be just necessary to get us where we need to go, but we don't know yet because we're not through it we're in it.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] And there's no reason to really say for against in some ways because we're in it, we don't know how it's going to play out, and playing out sometimes means letting it breathe and letting it happen. So it is interesting about when you're living history and we are living history.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] With the pandemic and the social protest and things like that. So it is hard to say. I mean, there is apparent that this is very postmodern in a way so if people think we're deviating it's not. Because there is a connection to Jefferson Market Library to what I just told you about the whole war thing. And it's sort of crazy because it connects in so many ways and I had this sort of like crazy moment last night where I was, "My God," the meaning talk about meaning and this is really what we're talking about. Like who tells the story, where is the meaning? I just told you that story about the Cuban revolution and the USS Maine getting sunk, the American battleship that started this Spanish-American War which led to Philippine-American War. Jefferson Market Library was built in the 1870s is my library, in 1898 and there's a clock tower with a bell in it. In 1898, some supporter of the war wrote graffiti in the bell that exists today in the Jefferson Market tower that says, "To hell with Spain remember the name," about the Spanish-American War. So Jefferson Market Library has a strange connection that I work at the library I work into the war. Then as you remember, Crystal, in the book the insurrection or revolution that killed all those military, American military officers by the Filipinos was indicating to start by the ringing of the bells in the church in the town of Balangiga. And so I thought -- and the bells became a symbol of that insurrection or revolution. And to the point where Americans after the war was overtook those bells as almost it's not souvenir but like a war bounty and took them. And for 60, 70, 80 years they were under fire fight to get them back Philippines wanted those bells back for their church and the Americans didn't. But they finally, excuse me, returned in 2018. So the bell connection like the bell in Jefferson Market tower, you must think I'm crazy what I just --

[Crystal] -- No, I mean it's cool.

[Frank] In a way I felt it was part of the nature of this book because there's a kind of digression that Gina Apostol would do. But yet also indicate this postmodern thing about meaning like you could then say Jefferson market is a representation of American sovereignty or an ally in the revolution on the Filipino side, you know. And you could make -- you could interpret meaning in all sorts of places because there's the bell, there's the graffiti, there's the connection, there's the time, they both existed, you know what I mean? You could create that meaning if you wanted to. And that's sort of what this book does, it creates meaning, it decides meaning and says, of course, both could be correct, neither or neither could be correct, and is also not right to jump to conclusion which could be frustrating for some readers I think. But you said it best at the beginning is that you jumped on the ride and went with it.

[Crystal] I mean, maybe this will be like slight spoilers. But the idea like jumping to conclusions I feel like the author like toyed with me a little bit but it's also my own presumptions kind of like let into the reading experience so when they do have the sort of the dueling scripts, right, so the characters, the protagonist in one is Cassandra like sort of the white savior and the protagonist the other one is Cassiana who is one of the like so-called insurrectos. And I read it pretty much all the way to the end thinking that the Cassandra script was the one that was written by Chiara.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] And then the Cassiana script was the one written by Magsaline, right? And then at the very end, they talk it out and you realize that's not what it was it was what.

[Frank] -- I meant to ask you, yes.

[Crystal] And I was so surprised by that. And then when they explained why they brought those scripts like for Magsaline writing the script of Cassandra she wanted Chiara to read it and that she's like that was only for her to read it.

[Frank] To put a white lady in this script she was the only way to get Chiara to read it, yeah.

[Crystal] Yes. And then also she talked about how like by kind of revisiting this history. I think we're both kind of like resurrecting history in some ways by doing it she had to kind of like live in the trauma of it and how -- to record how that was for her. And then for Chiara that Cassiana script was really about her father and trying to like resurrect her father and how that was also something where she felt like it was maybe better left to bury in a lot of ways. I thought I was so surprised by that and I was just like, "Oh, the fly, she got me."

[Frank] When I read it I was like, "Oh, wait, did I miss something?" Because I assume is the same. Again, don't jump to conclusions like I said and like Gina Apostol said it's like I was like, "Oh, the white lady script was written by the Filipina, and the insurrecto Filipina lady script was written by the white girl."

[Crystal] I mean I thought it was great through. I loved that she kind of toyed with the reader that way in a gentle way, you know. So it made it really fun for me because then I had to go back and be like, "Oh my gosh, like let me revisit some of these chapters because what I thought was happening was not really what's happening." And I think that's kind of consistent with maybe just our general views of history and these different events where you think it's one thing but maybe it's not and maybe you kind of have to like interrogate that.

[Frank] Yeah. And as again, some readers would read this and be furious, they'd feel like they were tricked, right? I mean, Gina Apostol is playing, she's -- it's like she says, it's a puzzle, her books are also a puzzle. And you can't be mad at the puzzle for tricking you because the puzzle is there to puzzle you. But it's also there to be fun but then being tricked is fun sometimes. I mean it's so interesting, I'm glad you brought that up because I had that thought last night. I was like, "I completely missed on this."

[Crystal] I have another quote where -- it's a short quote where I feel like it kind of speaks to maybe the author's kind of attitude with these kinds of different like shifting perspectives. Where there's a part where Chiara is I think sings a line from a song that she learned growing up. And she gets some of the words wrong and somebody says, "I mean you sing obscene country land of lies," which was the direct translation but that's not what she thought it was. And Chiara says, "I could've sworn that was what my teacher taught me." That is also likely says Magsalin, everyone is a joker. Anyway, don't worry about it no one ever gets that song right. And I feel like that's sort of the attitude for the book to where we don't really sometimes know what's real and what's not real. But maybe, you know, just kind of move forward with it, you know.

[Frank] Absolutely. I mean there's so much here, I mean she's pretty wide-ranging. I mean there's the whole like Muhammad Ali Mall like there's literally and this is true. I discovered that a real mall in the Philippines named the Muhammad Ali Mall. I mean, there's the whole Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier fight, the Thriller in Manila. Well, that's another thing like knowing -- when you're reading this, you might not know there's an actual Muhammad Ali Mall until you do the research on it. And that's part of what Gina Apostol and that's why some people might not like it but a part of her books are -- is you have to sort of put in some work, you have to. And it's not just which is -- and it's not just reading the text it's outside work. To the point where Gina Apostol has a website, did you know that?

[Crystal] No, I didn't know that.

[Frank] Praxino.org which is actually a supplement to the book, which gives Wikipedia entries and videos and stuff, it's mentioned in the book this site. Because she also has these fake footnotes at the end or pin notes that are really part of the book. So it's mimicking this academic style, but it's asking you to go for the ride but also be as smart as you can be, you know, be as informed as you can be. And also what was it? Oh, there's a great line I just can't think of it, where she talks about European culture and Southeast Asian culture. And she brings up this doubleness again of, you know, why is it okay to jump into a book of French history without knowing -- not knowing anything about French history and going for that ride whereas you might resist going for a ride on Filipina history. You know, like where is that?

[Crystal] That's a good one.

[Frank] Yeah. Like this quote of like, you know, why not jump in if you don't understand it but and it's not Western, I guess it's what she's saying. But why not go for it? It's human. You might be more willing to like dig into, you know, the tutors, the history of the British English tutors but like why not about the insurrection/revolution at Balangiga? Which is provoking and interesting but is good.

[Crystal] Like it made me think about like how I think just growing up obviously in America like thinking about how so much of our culture is from this like very western point of view. So like a book about like France is like not intimidating because we're constantly being like, you know, my favorite Netflix show, "Emily in Paris", "Emily in Paris". [brief laughter] If you haven't seen it, watch it. But you know, that's something that's like a constant part of our culture in the way that, you know, the Philippines aren't seen over. You know, the Philippine-American War is not something that I studied in school, right?

[Frank] Not at all. Good point.

[Crystal] But you learned about like, what's his name, Lafayette coming to America to fight with -- was it the -- in the American Revolutionary War or things like that.

[Frank] Yeah. Is it related to America with our Western roots clear -- I mean our European roots clearly. This reminded me of something I can't remember now about history. I don't remember. Because there's oodles of stuff in this book. So I hope people got an idea of like what this book can be. And whether or not they want to jump in and take a ride on the express of "Insurrecto," you know. What was I going to say? Darn it. Oh, my brain, my darling brain.

[Crystal] You said it was about history maybe?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] About the war?

[Frank] Shutting down here.

[Crystal] Now I want to know.

[Frank] Now I want to know. I'm looking at some of the things I wrote down. We talked about the --

[Crystal] -- Was it the quote about France?

[Frank] Yeah. I mean like it was whiffing on that that something you said but it's okay.

[Crystal] It's okay. I need to know.

[Frank] It's not okay. You know, I'm glad you wrote Amoli, is it Amoli in Paris?

[Crystal] It's "Emily in Paris." I think I heard a comedian call it Amoli in Paris.

[Frank] So is that your -- like the French movie "Amélie." Did you -- it's your guilty pleasure or just a pleasure?

[Crystal] It was a strange ride is all I'll say about that show.

[Frank] Really? Okay. Well, you just did a books culture, thank you. Oh, I know what I was going to say.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] I think. Now, I forgot again. It's so tenuous. Oh, I think I was just going to say I was just thinking about history and writing about it how affectionate, is that the right word? Gently mocking but affectionate of the American military in the Philippines who all get slaughtered horribly. How she delineates how young they are. I guess is what we know about history and who's telling the story and what we would study. I guess I was thinking is that you never read about how these boys essentially got slaughtered. And it's interesting she takes that perspective she doesn't talk -- she doesn't go into the follow-up to the revolutionary or insurrection depending on who's telling the story. Where 20,000 Filipinos got killed but she talks about the 48 American military who were all like all under 25 got killed terribly. But how she's so, you know, some of them still have like pimples on their face, they're so young. And how she says none of them really knew why they were even in the Philippines like what they were doing there, they were just told. I guess that's what I was thinking about that history and what we hear. But you do hear about the insurrectos for sure and their incredible rally and cry to just destroy them. The American military presence than the Americans, you know, retaliated hardcore.

[Crystal] But then like on the opposite side of that too is like you have those soldiers who are described as kind of like pimply young. But then I feel like the clearest picture on the soldiers is that one named I think Randall who I think is suffering from syphilis, right? And so he's like essentially rotting in his -- I think it's like it's orifices or things like that. But you know, he is rotting from this disease, right, that is meta is like treatable now but at that time. And I also felt like that kind of paints a picture of like the American military as well too, so again she does that doubling of these different kinds of perspectives. I think are both true, you know.

[Frank] I know. I mean, this is also what the book is chock-full of. Like I talk about one of the military guys, Randall, like remember one of them Bampis [assumed spelling], his name was Bampis. He's like big and blonde and like 18 years old but he's like a -- he plays chess with one of the local guys in the town and he's sort of like a loveable oaf. I mean and just basically horribly murdered, well he's killed. But she describes him which this is what I'd say the book is riddled with, that you could spend hours just thinking about her metaphors or about her sentences, Gina Apostol. She describes Bampis as big, blonde, handsome guy as having the feral charm of a black sheep. What? Like she basically describes him as like this corn-fed oaf but then having feral charm which means wild but tamed of a black sheep. So that counterpoints his blondness but with black sheep dark as an outsider. I guess he was an outsider in the Philippines try to be in try to be -- or was just naturally like a socializer who wanted to be friends with the Philippine -- Filipino people in a way. I just say if you could think about that for a long time it's just also a beautiful sentence of feral charm of a black sheep. Like what -- you could slide by that quickly and keep reading like find out the plot keep plot forward but then if you stop you realize how much there is there. I mean, she also says like the -- about the soldiers like thoughts of home because they miss -- they were homesick beyond belief, I mean they're boys. Like thoughts of home ate them up like the soothing rot of cavities. And I thought is the rot of cavities soothing? It's just her language which I love, I mean like I love digging into that. Because you can it's almost like looking at this stereopticon because if you have two images, right, like you said before and then they merge to form something else. Soothing rot and cavities or soothing and rot are two sides of something. But if you look at it and think about it long enough you could merge into one and give meaning there, you know. Like you could almost if you think about it sort of understand, oh, I think I know what she means by soothing rot even though those two don't necessarily go together when I first think about it. I just excited myself.

[Crystal] Funny thinking about cavities, no, but yeah.

[Frank] No. Thinking about meaning and words you goofball.

[Crystal] Yeah. I mean I thoroughly enjoyed the book in a way that I did not really expect to enjoy it. She has this second book I think "The Revolution of Raymundo" something.

[Frank] Mata?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Raymundo Mata.

[Crystal] Is that the title?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Google it.

[Frank] "The Revolution According to Raymundo Mata" is that it? [ Background Sounds ]

[Crystal] Google will tell us.

[Frank] Yeah. She has four books.

[Crystal] Yes, yes.

[Frank] A couple.

[Crystal] More. In this series?

[Frank] Oh, it's a series?

[Crystal] Oh, is this not series?

[Frank] I didn't think so. I thought they were standalones but I mean I think maybe Filipino history.

[Crystal] Oh, maybe this is a stand-alone, okay.

[Frank] Because she wrote the "Gun Dealers' Daughter" is another book.

[Crystal] Oh, I thought it was a series because they had like the portrait on the cover so I just visually was like, "Oh, maybe this all belongs together." But I think you're probably right they're standalones.

[Frank] Well, it's not a literal series but it's all from the mind of Gina Apostol.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I wonder what she'd think of this conversation. She's like, "Not much," says Gina.

[Crystal] I guess she would like the bell, the Jefferson bell thing.

[Frank] No. Crystal, I love you.

[Crystal] I feel like a revision of the book should have it as one of the things in the notes because there were so many things in the notes in the back that it was really fun because it was like the false things were kind of interwoven with the real things. Where I was like, you know, that character, Stephan Real, is this the real author? I don't think it was real author. But then everything that were definitely real I think [inaudible]. I guess it's hard you say --

[Frank] -- Exactly, we don't know. And I love you for saying that and picking that up it means you're such a good listener. I could learn tips from you. But like I thought if I brought the best story but the bell and everyone will be like, "Oh, Frank is so self-centered, why is he talking about the Jefferson Market again?" But I thought it was such a post-modern thing to say and I did think in some weird way that Gina Apostol but I didn't quite consciously realize it would appreciate that story because there's a connection, you know, and it makes meaning.

[Crystal] Yes. And so you know what I'm thinking, right? We should write her and ask her to put in her book. I'm scared.

[Frank] That was very lovely of you it's made me feel, you -- what's the word? Not vindicated. You validated me.

[Crystal] Validated.

[Frank] Thanks for validating me, Crytal.

[Crystal] You're welcome, Prank.

[Frank] We better -- what, Prank. We better cut off quickly before I get an ASMR thrown at me?

[Crystal] Let's do a quick one. I feel like we're going, okay, here, here. I have -- this is my ASMR thing.

[Frank] Give me a list. [ Background Sounds ] It's like a --

[Crystal] I'm going to give you a clue.

[Frank] You just gave two sounds there.

[Crystal] Well, yeah.

[Frank] Is it a brush?

[Crystal] No. It could be used with a brush I guess. I might give you a clue.

[Frank] I mean are there bristle? Are you brushing -- are you --?

[Crystal] No, no, no. No bristles. I'll give you a clue. This is something that is in the arsenal of every children's librarian library worker but also find to be the most deadly annoying thing because it turns up everywhere after we use it.

[Frank] Is it like a -- it could be a hacky sack. What is that?

[Crystal] I mean --

[Frank] -- Or a sand -- is there sand involved?

[Crystal] Not sand but you're getting close in terms of the like microscopic aspects of it.

[Frank] Is it like a maraca of sorts?

[Crystal] I mean would that be in every children librarian's arsenal?

[Frank] Well, I mean like --

[Crystal] Once you see this you guess yes.

[Frank] Is it an instrument?

[Crystal] It's not an instrument. It's an art supply.

[Frank] Oh. Glitter.

[Crystal] Yes. [ Laughter ] You guessed it.

[Frank] You took me on quite a journey. I love that. It's like is it maraca and then pause, pause, pause, glitter.

[Crystal] I mean, you definitely have glitter at Jefferson Market.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Everywhere.

[Frank] Exactly. Like for sometimes every children's teacher or everyone would know. Sometimes you walk around and you see glimpse of glitter in the carper or on your skin for a couple of days because it just lingers.

[Crystal] Very on me.

[Frank] Oh, cute. Glitter. All right. There our producer that's the name of this episode, glitter.

[Crystal] Glitter.

[Frank] I want you to do that, I want to -- well, basically from the beginning of this podcast people would be taken on the journeys like why the hell did they call it glitter and then they'll figure it out.

[Crystal] Yes. And it's not a Mariah Carey reference.

[Frank] It is not even though it could be if Gina Apostol was writing this story she would make it one.

[Crystal] Oh, yes.

[Frank] She would bring up Mariah Carey's, I mean, talk about cultural impact and meaning. We have to stop.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] We've been talking for six hours. Are you okay if I ended it all right now?

[Crystal] Oh, yeah.

[Frank] "I'm Thinking of Ending Things," another book I love. I love that book which is also --

[Crystal] -- I mean I was just starting to think about the Mariah Carey and more then maybe I should read that book.

[Frank] The meaning of Mariah Carey, see the meaning could be anywhere. You could make Mariah Carey a symbol for human endeavor.

[Crystal] That could be our read-alike for this book is the name of Mariah Carey.

[Frank] You know, maybe we should.

[Crystal] You know. I don't have a read-alike for this book. I don't think I've read a lot of books like this one, so.

[Frank] A book we read together maybe we could read it and make read a pop culture or so-called pop culture. I mean, Gina Apostol makes me -- we've just talked about how pop culture is also culture sometimes. Yeah, for real. It's so varied and sundry. So thank you for joining us everybody out there, for listening to us talk about "Insurrecto" by Gina Apostol. And thank you Crystal for suggesting this book from the AAPI list. I did not expect what I was about to read and nor did I think I was going to love it but talking about it with you made me realize so much more.

[Crystal] Oh, Frank, I give it a five Crystal nickels out of five Crystal nickels.

[Frank] I'm still refusing to put a number to quality.

[Crystal] That's 25 cents.

[Frank] I can see your game. You're going to weed in your possessions. But I'm not ready to commit to enumerating literature yet so I'm not going to have a Frank Franc, was it -- is that what it was?

[Crystal] Frank Franc, Frank Franc, yes.

[Frank] A Frank Franc. I'm not going to give it a five Franc, Frank. I'm not going to give it a 5 Frank Francs or 4 or 3 or 10, 11. I'm just going to say with a ride baby and thanks for joining me. And thank you out there again for everybody listening and please join us next time when Crystal and I will discuss whatever the heck we're reading. See you next time.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast for the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play or send us an email at podcasts@NYPL.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit NYPL.org. We're produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.