Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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This week Frank and Rhonda read one of the books on our 125 NYC Books We Love list, The Stories of John Cheever. The stories explore American life after World War II and Frank and Rhonda, who both grew up in the suburbs, particularly home in on the themes of the loneliness and rigidity of suburban life that Cheever explores. If you haven't had a chance to read it yet, you can find it in our catalog below:

The Stories of John Cheever by John Cheever

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to the Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture and what to read next. I'm still Frank.

[Rhonda] And I am still Rhonda.

[Frank] You are?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You are. Howdy.

[Rhonda:] Howdy.

[Frank] Howdy. So here we are.

[Rhonda] Here we are again, in a new year, in a new era almost. Well --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Up when this airs --

[Frank] Yeah. A new era, I guess it's always a new era. Change -- change happens, change is part of life. Right?

[Rhonda] And I know we talk about culture. And do you watch like the Marvel movies, like Captain America and those types of things?

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] Well --

[Frank] But I've been intrigued by the WandaVision Show.

[Rhonda] That's what I was going to mention. I started watching that the past week, and I thought -- and it reminded me of, I think, a lot of all the stories we're going to talk about today, because it's the parity of those kind of 1950 TV shows like, you know, Dick Van Dyke Show and like Donna Reed Show where the wife is at home. And, you know, the caretaker and the husband goes off to work every day. And I don't know, it kind of fit in to some of the stories that I read. That I think we're going to discuss.

[Frank] Well, I know there's superhero aspects to it, which I'm not really aware that much. But what intrigued me about the show was precisely that they seem to go back in time or -- or something where they get caught in these classic American sitcom scenarios which appeal to me in a nostalgic and -- I don't know, interesting way. So yeah, I had a feeling you were going to say that somehow.

[Rhonda] Did you really? That's [inaudible].

[Frank] I did. Well, they've been promoting it hard, but -- so as everyone knows, we read the stories of John Cheever. And there's lots of -- there's the collective story of which there are many. And Rhonda and I each read three. We don't know what the other read, so maybe we'll merge. Maybe we won't. But it will be interesting to talk about a course that I was reading, I was like, "Oh, I hope she read this one, because I really want to know what she thinks." But, so John Cheever, suburban poet, right? Poet of suburbia.

[Rhonda] My first time reading John Cheever. I've not read anything else.

[Frank] You know, I feel like I'm so familiar with him. I mean I've asked you this before. I know I have, because it's sort of a thing of mine too. Like you -- you grew up in suburbia. You did?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] You told me. You know, wait, don't -- not Ohio, but where?

[Rhonda] It was Ohio.

[Frank] Oh, it was?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Oh, I shouldn't second guess myself. I mean and I did too on Long Island, sort of classic suburbia. I mean John Cheever's suburbia is usually upper-middle class.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Or what would -- would have been termed upper -- upper-middle then, even though it seems pretty upper-upper to me with maids and cooks sometimes. I certainly grew up middle-middle, very middle. And maybe, you know, just a little lower even. But suburbia fascinates me.

[Rhonda] Really?

[Frank] Yeah. I mean growing up in it like, I don't know, just, you know, it was just is. It was what it was. And I certainly didn't care that much about it and wanted to get out. But as I look back, of course, childhood can loom large in one's life and in one's psyche. So, and it's such a thing suburbia as witnessed by the stories of John Cheever -- Cheever that is sort of interesting. Like the thought of going back to it terrifies me.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] I couldn't. I just couldn't, but it is a place there. It is a place in my soul. But John Cheever, you know, the generations are slightly off in there. His generation that he writes about, definitely went through World War II. The husbands of the '50s and '60s definitely served in World War II in some capacity. So my parents were too young. They were post that their age. So it was really '60s and '70s suburbia I grew up in. But, so what do you -- what do you -- see I haven't read. So just off the top of your noggin, what do you think?

[Rhonda] So let's see. Let's -- I guess we should just kind of jump into --

[Frank] A story?

[Rhonda] A story, right. I'm trying to think of which one I want to bring up. Okay. I'll just jump. I'll just pick one. Did you read The Season of Divorce?

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] You didn't, okay. Okay. So this -- this one was the first one that I read. Again, I listened to it and the -- what I listened to was they did different narrators for each book who are famous. Some I knew, some I didn't. This one is Edward Herrmann. Do you know Edward Herrmann?

[Frank] Yeah, the actor.

[Rhonda] Okay. So yeah, he's the one who narrated The Season of Divorce. And kind of like you and I have already prefaced, it's -- we have suburbia. Right? And we have the -- this very, you know, family. The husband, the wife, Ethel. She has -- they have a couple of kids. And, you know, he starts out kind of the husband is telling the story from his point of view. And he kind of just started out kind of going through these very kind of mundane routine days that they have. But one of the things that he mentions is kind of like every morning after the wife has done the -- the dish -- the breakfast and the kids are off to school, she kind of just stands in the center of the living room and just contemplates for a while. Just for a few minutes, she just kind of is standing there in this reflective state. And they start kind of going to a few of these dinner parties, and they meet a couple, the Trenchers. And it turns out that Dr. Trencher begins to follow the narrator's wife around. And she mentions, you know, when she goes to the park, she sees him. When she, you know, does her shopping, she sees him. And he's just kind of following her around. And then beyond following her around, he begins to talk to her. And she basically tells the husband this as Dr. Trencher begins to kind of become -- I don't know what to say aggressive but, you know, more forward with his feelings for Ethel. And it's weird because you get -- you finally understand that Dr. Trencher, this man is in love with the wife. But the husband is -- he never feels threatened. He just kind of thinks like, "Oh, this is odd. Or oh, this man's feelings are displaced." And the -- sorry, the man, Dr. Trencher does things like he begins to show up at the house, he brings flowers. And the husband is just saying kind of like, "Well, this is odd." And, you know, he's just kind of showing up and you -- he's not reacting at all like you think a man would feel if someone was actively trying to steal his wife. And so I'm thinking like well, this poor woman, you know, she has this one man who is really, really, you know, in love with her. And then she has her husband, who kind of give off the impression that another man can't be in love with her. And I'm hoping in my feelings that she'll leave the husband, because I'm like this -- this man just kind of like doesn't care at all. But what turns out to happen is that this man who is in love with her gives her these renewed feelings about not him, but just about life. And she kind of thinks about, you know, well, if this could actually happen, if I could, you know, have this relationship with another man, what else am I missing out on? And she talks about, you know, how she had gone to school and how she had, you know, how she believes that the cooks that she grew up with live a better life than she lives now. And she just kind of gives out all of these regrets about really not living her life. And she doesn't really care about this man who is in love with her, but she -- it just brings up all these feelings. So then I start to feel like oh well, I hope she just leaves both of them and goes off. And I mean, I know she has kids and things like that, but I want this woman to like have a fulfilling life. And it's so sad because the husband basically is like okay enough. And, you know, Dr. Trencher kind of just -- he leaves, because he can't live without her. So he leaves, and they just go back to how it kind of all started. And it really ends with her standing in the living room, again, in this kind of reflective space. So they go through all of this to kind of just, you know, end up where they began. And she goes through all of these feelings and all of these changes, but nothing does change. And it was really sad and really frustrating that she had all these revelations about her life, but she's just stuck. I just, you know --

[Frank] Well, can I ask you? Do -- do you get her point of view, or is it told through her husband's point of view?

[Rhonda] It's told completely through the husband's point of view.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But you definitely see what she's going through.

[Frank] Now, do you think she's reflective or like in a way, paralyzed?

[Rhonda] That's a good -- that's a good question, because the word he uses I think is like contemplating. Like she's contemplating, like she's thinking, but she could be, you know, because she just kind of he says, she just stands in the living room. And there's just, you know, she does this every day just doing nothing, and she could be paralyzed because she doesn't take any actions. And again, like this is the 1940s. What -- I don't know for women, what kind of actions were really available for her? Could she really just pick up and leave? Could she run off with this man? You know, what would the reality be? But I don't know, it was just really sad to me. The whole thing.

[Frank] I mean that, I think that's definitely themes we want to get, you know, authentic.

[Rhonda] Absolutely.

[Frank] That run through his stories, several of which I wrote down which definitely seem to apply here that -- that duality of wanting what you think you want, versus wanting what you think you have. And also on the other side is the sort of regimented orderly world versus chaos. Like either avoiding chaos at all costs or disruption, or sidling up to it and feeling like you might want to go there.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Because, you know, the suburban thing of everything is regimented, you know, everyone has a role. It probably, I mean I was trying to think about why the suburban mythos occurred, like maybe after World War II after that calamity. You know, Americans were sold certainly a sense of home, like a redefined sense of home out in the outside the cities. And it was certainly embraced in maybe an eager attempt to avoid the chaos of war and embrace something that had meaning, and hierarchy that one could feel like one was striving and safe. But of course, human emotions come into play always, as you just described in that story, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah, it's -- right, exactly. And it's just kind of the husband's for the whole story. The way he told it was just very like, you know, I don't know. It's just very odd the way that he -- it didn't really even matter to him that his wife was being, you know, courted is the old word by another -- another man until the very end, where he's just kind of like, "You're bothering me. Get out now." It's just -- yeah, like you said, it was -- I don't know. It was kind of twilight zone here a little bit, the way that these -- the reactions to these situations.

[Frank] What do you think? He didn't care?

[Rhonda] I don't -- it was almost -- it wasn't maybe -- wasn't that he didn't care. But he was -- he didn't feel threatened. Maybe that's what it was. He didn't -- the mark that this man was bringing his wife flowers openly like came to him and said, "I'm in love with your wife." And there was really no feeling of being threatened. There was no feeling of protecting his relationship with his wife. There was no fear of her running off. And, you know, this is a short story. So kind of, we don't have more of an insight into why he didn't have any of these kind of -- these reactions which I would expect. But --

[Frank] Was he like an audience member in his own life? I mean was he just watching it passively?

[Rhonda] Kind of, yeah.

[Frank] So it really was confusing to you.

[Rhonda] It was confusing in that sense. And then like again, there was a moment of anger at that end, but -- with the other man, but I -- and I still don't think it came from his love for his wife, because they didn't really seem to love each other. There was no love in this story, except by the man who was obsessed with this woman. And that, I think that was part of what was kind of confusing. It was very like I could see this being black and white. There is very like this relationship kind of had no color. You know, thinking about like WandaVision and -- and how these shows appeared, like I could see this in my mind. I don't know.

[Frank] Love.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] What is love? Well, I mean I could tell you about the story The Country Husband.

[Rhonda] Did not read that one.

[Frank] Okay, which, you know, is also about a married couple in the suburb with four kids. The commuter train figures largely in a lot of his stories, especially this one. And this one as opposed to some others, certainly the one you just told about has a farce element to it. Like a comedic farcical element because from the get go, stuff happens that's sort of just like over the top and like huh? Like the opening of the story of The Country Husband is the husband, Francis Weed is in -- is in a plane coming back for a business trip back to New York that basically crash-lands right away. Everyone gets out okay, but it's sort of a, you know, a sort of boom, boom, beginning. And you're just like whoa. And then he manages to find his way home, you know, gets on a taxi. They have taxis for them. It gets him to Philadelphia then to -- to New York. And he's trying to tell a colleague at work on the commuter train that he happens to run into about I was just in a plane crash. But it says that Francis was not so creative that he could tell the story excitingly enough, and then his colleague lost interest. Like he's trying to tell him I was in a plane crash, but he couldn't get the urgency of it across. And then the colleague was just like went back to his newspaper. And then he gets home, and he walks in with his four kids and wife and is starting to tell them, "Oh my, I was just in a plane crash and I'm home." And before he could really get that out of his mouth like his kids start fighting. His wife's like, "Oh, dinner is ready." And she's like setting the table. And then his older daughter upstairs is like, you know, cranky about something and it sort of gets lost in the shuffle. And he's just like oh. In other words, everybody has their -- everyone is locked in their own heads with their own -- their own mishegoss and story, and he can't get his story out that he wants attention, and the kids are fighting. And there's a great moment where -- I love this line, because it's almost like marriage as a battlefield. He's trying to tell his wife Julia what happened, and the kids are fighting and there's like -- let me see. There's a lot of drama, and he sort of says, you know, "Maybe we can, you know, have dinner ourselves and feed the kids earlier before I get back." And she -- it says Julia had her guns loaded and ready for that one. And then she goes on to say, "I'm not making two separate dinners, laying two separate tables and cleaning two sets of dishes just to have dinner separately. That's not happening." And he's just like, "Well, I wish you wouldn't." Just like how you're unhappy with my -- basically my housewifery, and then she starts crying.

[Rhonda] Did she use the word housewifery?

[Frank] No, I sort of said that, but -- and she starts crying. And he's just like oh. And it's sort of like her own story of like she has to be -- she has to be the perfect wife. She has to be doing what she's doing. And she can't take any criticism, but I love how that sort of love is a battlefield metaphor of like, she had her guns loaded and ready for this one. Like he was going to love her of why don't you just, and she's just like, "How can I possibly?" Actually I wish -- let me see. Let me see if I can find the page, because it is sort of hilarious. Anyway, so they -- and then starts a series of events that sort of throw him into a conundrum of sorts. Like he -- he talks -- they go out a lot to the neighbor's houses dinner parties, his wife loves to do that. And the babysitter, a new babysitter they have which is not their older -- older lady babysitter. She's a young high school girl who then Francis falls in love with. So it's like reacts to her as an object of young beauty and maybe potential, and sort of just immediately has this turn where he wants to love her. And the girl is -- has her own story. She's from the poor side of the tracks, and her father is a drinker. And she, you know, is sort of managing that household and sort of -- does sort of cleave to Francis at -- in a moment in there in the car as he's taking her home from babysitting. A moment of consolation, where she allows herself to be hugged. And he hugs her and then he slightly moves further, like he just hugs her a little harder then she pulls away. And -- and then the rest of the story is him contemplating what just happened, and what that means. So again, like I said before, that sense of duality, of welcoming chaos into your life or something disruptive that could break up the formality and regimentation of what you -- what you know to be okay and safe, fearing that chaos and also maybe inviting it because the potential of love let's say, is so strong and so healing and so desirable that maybe should go for it. And he, you know, realizes the craziness of that, but like I guess just by her one moment of like consolation that she accepted for him, the potential has opened up. So -- but there's a farcical element to it, because he sort of finds out that she's engaged after high school to marry this -- this young guy. And then he encounters this guy when a neighbor asks to -- him to help the kid in the neighborhood to get him a job in his company. And Francis just to sort of thwarts that. Like demolishes it to perceive sort of jealous. And in a very like of the all [inaudible] of the '60s -- '50s and '60s, he goes to a psychiatrist and basically just says, "I'm in love, I can't -- I can't function." And the psychiatrist says, "Why don't you take up woodworking?"

[Rhonda] Cool.

[Frank] Go into your basement and build a coffee table. And he actually does and finds I guess, a sense of reclaimed masculinity, or a sense of order, a sense of productivity like -- actually, there's a -- there's much made in a story of the physical world versus the world of the mind. Like interior, like the sort of joy of the sensations of the physical world and it sounds -- it's sort of parodic in that, you know, the psychiatrist is like, "Take up woodworking to get over your vehement sexual urges or whatever they are." And he does, and is sort of like happily whittling away in the basement. But -- as if it's a sublimation of his other urges. So that -- that sort of physical world versus the life of the mind is very much present in this story. And there's even a line like I said before about Julia's, the wife's love of parties. And that -- and as John Cheever says, Julia loved sort of the -- the organization of being very social and accepted as a manifestation of a most natural dread of chaos and loneliness. So that definitely is at the core of a lot of J. Cheever's story. That sort of dread of chaos and loneliness, but the stifling of the classic suburban arrangement. I just wish like, you know, people like have the ability to reflect. And like you said before, and they just I guess, at times were just unable to do that, because, you know, a married man in his 40s could say, "I'm feel feeling emotions. I'm feeling human emotions." But like they're not appropriate, and it's just not tenable to have them manifest in this 17, 18-year-old girl. You know, be able to think your way through that is possible certainly, but not always doable. Right?

[Rhonda] Right. And it seems another thing that sounds interesting, and I think we see this through the themes or throughout the different stories is kind of -- in a lot of these kind of suburban couple stories, probably not just John Cheever with this idea of no one ever really feels appreciated or seen by the other person, you know. We're talking about the wife, you know, and the battleground saying, you know, I have done all these things, I have done all this, you want me to do more. And then he comes in and he can't tell his story. And because, you know, no one is feeling seen or appreciated by the other one, there's kind of this -- it creates this, I don't know this -- this gulf, this disconnect. I don't know. I feel like we see that a lot in these stories, and in other kind of suburban stories that we see.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean I agree. This -- here's that part about when, you know, the kids are fighting and Julia says like oh lighting candles, trying to make this a nice dinner. And Francis suggest like maybe we should have two dinners, like children could eat earlier. And it says, Cheever says, "Francis asked Julia if the children couldn't have their dinner earlier. Julia's guns are loaded for this. She can't cook two dinners and lay two tables. She -- she paints with lightning strokes that panorama of drudgery in which her youth, her beauty and her wit have been lost. Francis says that he must be understood he was nearly killed in an airplane crash, and he doesn't like to come home every night to a battlefield. Now Julia is deeply concerned. Her voice trembles. He doesn't come home every night to a battlefield. The accusation is stupid and mean. Everything was tranquil until he arrived. She stops speaking, puts down the knife and fork and looks into her plate as if -- as if it is a gulf. She begins to cry. 'Poor Mommy,' Toby says, her son. And when Julia gets up from the table, drying her tears with the napkin, Toby goes to recite, 'Poor mommy.' He says, 'Poor Mommy.' And they climb the stairs together. The other children drift away from the battlefield and Francis goes into the back garden for some air."

[Rhonda] Wow. That's a lot.

[Frank] There you go. I mean wow, relationships.

[Rhonda] Oh, my gosh. And you see that that's explosive. You know, it seems like there's a lot of kind of just pent up --

[Frank] I don't know. You know -- well, we don't have to -- I'd love to talk at length about my childhood, but like sometimes explosions happen out of nowhere, or it seems like they happen out of nowhere. You know, the perfection of the suburban ideal is breached. And suddenly it's all out like tearful war, you know?

[Rhonda] Yeah. Wow.

[Frank] Oh boy. I mean, yeah. So, anyhow. So tell me the other two stories you read --

[Rhonda] Oh, okay. So this one I also -- you might have read, The Enormous Radio.

[Frank] No. I know it's one of his most famous, but I didn't.

[Rhonda] I did not know that it was one of his most famous, but as I mentioned I listened and this one was read by Meryl Streep.

[Frank] Oh, wow.

[Rhonda] Well, I should have figured that this was probably one of the more popular stories. And of course, the way she read it was wonderful. So if anyone does want to listen to the John Cheever stories, I highly recommend listening to Meryl Streep read The Enormous Radio. But this one was interesting because this is a story I could totally see as -- as almost like an episode of the twilight zone, because there's a slight, slight element of science fiction to it which I was not expecting at all. But again, of course, we start off with the same setting. Although this setting is, you know, we talk about his stories kind of being upper-middle class. This couple is probably a little bit lower-middle class, but still middle class. No children, just a husband and wife. And, you know, he -- of course, he starts out describing this couple, the Westcotts. And it's interesting because he talks about how they live in this apartment complex, apartment building. And he says the only thing that separates them from the other families or couples that live in this building, and I thought it was interesting that he said the only thing is that they love music. Like they have this strong love of music. He says they go to the theater 10.3 times a year. He says 10.3. And they have this radio and every night, they listen to the classical music broadcast. And sadly, one day the radio break. And so the husband says, "Okay, I'm going to go out and I'll buy you this new radio." And it comes back and it's kind of like this monstrosity, you know, huge, all these dials. Takes special people to hook it up. And they start, you know, they -- they play the radio, and they realize that it's picking up other electronic devices around the building. So they can hear vacuum cleaners, they can hear like a toaster, you know, working. They can hear things and they're like, "This is -- this is unacceptable." So they call the people back to come and fix it. And they fix it and then what they realize is that they can hear conversations of people throughout the building. And the first night, you know, they think this is hilarious. They're listening to people, you know, singing and doing, you know, talking and they're really enjoying this. And so the husband goes to work the next day and the wife is trying to still find music, and she -- she just gets enthralled listening to the people's conversations. You know, just listening to every -- what's going on in every family.

[Frank] Like -- shes like the first reality --

[Rhonda] Exactly. Yeah, kind of like reality TV and she's just obsessed with it. And the husband is like, "You have to stop doing this." Like if you don't stop, we're going to get rid of it or you can't do this anymore. But she doesn't stop. And one day he comes home and she's like, "They're --" You know, the husband in 4C is beating up his wife, you have to go and you have to stop it. And he's just like, "No, this is enough. Like we are going to just -- to get rid of this radio." And so they -- they have this like whole argument about this. And she says, you know, she kind of talks about some of the things that she's hearing. And she's hearing that, you know, this building, you know, this couple is on the verge of divorce. And this couple is, you know, the husband is having or the wife is having an affair. This one is having money troubles, and kind of all of these problems and these issues that each of these families are having. And she's saying, you know, let's -- we're not like that, right? She's talking to the husband, she goes, "We're not like these other couples. We don't have the affairs and the money problems and this and that." She's -- and she's saying it, but she's also kind of asking it, like asking for his confirmation kind if saying, you know, all of these things that -- these kind of awful things that we're hearing from --

[Frank] My life is all right. Our life is all right. Right?

[Rhonda] Exactly. She's like, "We're okay, right?" And he's like, "You know what, I'm tired of this." So he calls the people to come and fix it. They come and it's done. Like all you hear is music. You don't hear other people's conversations, electronic. And, you know, we kind of think that is -- that it's over. So he comes back the next day and he says something, and I don't have it with me what he says to kind of trigger this. But -- something that's kind of negative. And she goes shh-shh-shh like, you know, we have to be quiet. And he's like, "Well, why do we have to be quiet?" And she's like, "Well, they could hear us." She thinks, you know, now that whoever maybe is on the -- someone else in the building could hear them through the radio. And then he kind of just explodes at her, and you -- and you think that this kind of mundane couple, very boring, and he just explodes everything that she has ever done kind of wrong in her life. And he talks about her having an abortion, and like goes into the abortion that it was unnecessary. And he talks about how she was a thief, and how she stole her mother's diamonds or something -- or jewelry before her sister could get to it. And really just explodes about just kind of all the horrible things, and that he's going to lose his job and that they are broke. And that they are not, you know, and how much he had to sacrifice so he could buy her this radio. And I don't know, it made me think about social media. Like I was thinking did John Cheever kind of predict like the -- the results of social media? And I say that because, you know, there's a term for it almost. I don't know if it was like Facebook envy or something, but looking at other people's lives and then kind of projecting how you want your life to look. Right. So on the surface and probably, you know, when she meets these people in the hallway or in the elevator, and she even says this. Like she went into the elevator and kind of sees all these women that she's listening to. And they all look perfect, and they all have on their pearls. They all have on their fur coats. But behind the scenes, like there's all this turmoil. And this idea of, you know, the voyeurism of seeing what everyone else is doing. And in behind the scenes, there's all of this chaos. And that she's also kind of projecting this perfect, you know, perfect scenario of her family and wanting to make sure that no one else can hear anything that's going on with them, but yet she has done all of these terrible things.

[Frank] Well, like that's like the core of so many of this like that, and it's even a quote from one of the stories I read about the repression of facts. The repression of unpleasant facts, concealing facts which has a lot of meaning for now. And it's interesting to me because when you were starting to say -- when you said at one point that the wife was saying like, "We're -- we're drama-free. We have no real past that's like the past we're listening to." And then obviously later as you said, you revealed that there was a lot of stuff there. Like thievery, abortion, I mean -- but yet that's an interest -- and that plays a lot here. It's like it doesn't mean she's crazy in some ways. It's like she -- history and memory are so -- can be so voluminous. Some things loom larger and others at different times, and it actively subconsciously, you know, consciously to a degree, you repress unpleasant things because you just can't believe it. Like you just said, you can't have that in your psyche looking at your neighbors who look so perfect even though they're not. As you -- as we all know I mean it's -- it's a tired trap like we know everyone has got a story, yet it's so hard to remember. We feel like we're the only ones who are going through something terrible, or have done something terrible. And our guilt can loom so large to us, and then you encounter a neighbor who's just like, "Good morning." You're like, "How the hell are they always so happy?"

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Could be going through something horrible, but that repression, it's an interesting thing where you can honestly say like, "Well, ours are pretty okay, right?" He's like, "Well, you know, you did actually hit that kid with the car and they broke their leg 20 years ago." Something like that, you know.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Yeah, but I mean it -- and it kind of is like that bad though with him. I mean he just kind of when he gets to that breaking point, he really just this kind of spew out like awful things that she's done. Like stealing from her family and -- and things that she doesn't want other people to know. That they're not financially, you know, as well off as they appear to be. And just like you said, it does seem like she was trying to hide it, but maybe even just repressing a lot of these things, you know, saying we're just not -- we're just not as bad as these other people are. And, you know, I guess it's human nature to kind of always want to say, "Well, at least I'm not as bad as off as this person, or I'm not going through what this person is going through." You know?

[Frank] Well, like in the story I told you about, like that natural -- natural, Cheever says natural dread of chaos. Like you're afraid of unleashing these things because it -- it could destroy you. You feel like in your head if you lived with them, they could destroy your head and you wouldn't be able to gather the resources you need to survive on a -- on a primal level, on a basic level that we all have. But yet as we all know, like when people recover from trauma, it won't. It won't necessarily kill you. It could make you as they say stronger. I mean, but there is a fear. Fear is so -- underpins everything it seems. The uplifting podcast. The happy podcast. I was actually thinking about that when I was reading Cheever. You know, is just like do happy people write? Do happy people actually write books?

[Rhonda] That's a -- yeah. They -- they're there somewhere.

[Frank] Well, I think if you're writing potentially to make people happy, and you want to make yourself happy like writing a lovely adventure or romance, or something we would call a genre. No disparaging, you know, but I wonder like in terms of what we call literary fiction, you know, it's just that I guess because of just what we're talking about in that the happy side of things is so -- so much often feels like the striving, superficial side that has other emotions at play just as humans haven't evolved quite far -- far enough to have those so called negative emotions quell themselves, you know?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] So when someone takes on a subject that's serious, it invariably deals with the underbelly of happiness, which is present in some degree in all of us. You know, some are more calmer, and some are more anxious. So I mean it's -- it's interesting when I was thinking about that like do happy people write books? I was like I don't know if I want to -- I want -- and I think this is a reaction against a certain kind of suburban upbringing I've had. I, you know, just to put a broad stroke on it. Like my parents were aspirational. I've said this before, I've talked about them before. And there was a sense of like we've made it, and this is going to be perfect. And everyone is going to be happy and happy. And, you know, just my personality and whatever I was born with plus in conjunction with them and culture, like I sort of resisted it. And so I wanted to move away from it. So like the books I want to read, I want to read about the unpleasantness behind the facade. You know, like I sort of seek it out because I want to know. I mean, I remember I used to yell at my mom -- fight with my mother. And I would always be like, "Just let me experience life's harshness myself." And she's like, "I just want to protect you," which is a wonderful thing. But I sort of felt like she couldn't eventually, and I had to get out there and suffer myself to learn.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I said I wouldn't talk about me, but look at --

[Rhonda] I'm learning about Frank's childhood.

[Frank] I do love suburbia though. I mean -- all right, the last story I read --

[Rhonda] I don't know about loving it, but yeah okay, I want to hear about the last story.

[Frank] You're loving it?

[Rhonda] I said, I don't know about loving suburbia, but I want to hear about this -- but you know interestingly enough, as we've talked about probably off the podcast, a lot of people are leaving like cities now and going back to kind of that life during the pandemic. I don't know, you know, that's not a discussion --

[Frank] Well, yeah. I mean yeah, and I have heard that as well. I've read about that as well. And they talked -- the article I read talked about cities and how much they've lost. And I was just like, "I'm not going anywhere." And I was like --

[Rhonda] Me either.

[Frank] -- contemplate what is the future of cities, like New York, where we live. And that is another conversation, and it's a story to be told in the next year or so to see where -- where we are economically, you know, socially. I don't know. I was -- well, we won't go down that road. I mean I was just heartened to read the other day also, about an article about how many people missed going to the movies. And it just made me feel like faith -- faithful that people will need to like go to libraries again, and -- and be a part of the human fabric. But anyway, we were talking about suburbia, John Cheever darling. So the last story I read, which is probably his most famous, and I hope you read it but I don't think you did because we're reading our own stories, is a story called The Swimmer.

[Rhonda] Oh, no. I didn't. I thought you were going to say something else, but --

[Frank] Now that is considered -- it was made into a movie with Burt Lancaster in the '60s. And I had to read it because I knew I've heard it all my life, but I had never read it. The movie itself seems slightly late '60s surreal. And always piqued my interest, because it didn't seem like a straightforward with narrative even though I never saw it [inaudible] or it was in my consciousness. So I decided to read it. And I -- it's only about 12 pages. And I swear by the end of it, it was like a punch in the gut. It took me totally by surprise. I didn't quite know what I was reading. And it was one of those story books I finished and put the book down, and just sort of stared for a second like whoa. It was a -- it was a -- it was. It was a toughie. And so it's -- and again, like you said with The Enormous Radio, there is a surreal aspect to it as opposed to some of the other stories, which are so called more straightforward and realistic. And that it opens on an idyllic suburban, upper-middle class afternoon where the lead guy, Ned -- Neddie, Ned Merrill is sort of by a neighbor's pool with his wife and the neighbors. And it's like a beautiful afternoon, and the pool is beautiful. And he has a drink in his hand because, you know, that's another thing. Everyone drinks constantly like mad men in this period of time it seems, which is a whole other story about why maybe. And he's just sort of feeling vital. He's middle aged, but still fit and spry. And is contemplating the beauty of the day again, the physical day like I mentioned before in the other story, sort of using that as a launching pad. And decides when he realizes everybody has a pool in his neighborhood. And he realizes he can swim from pool to pool, to pool to pool, to pool of all his neighbors until he gets, you know, a couple miles away to his own house. And he just decides to do it as like an adventure. As like I am a fit, healthy dude and I'm going to do this. I'm going to just swim each pool and work my way home.

[Rhonda] So he'd just walk into each house and getting in the pool and swimming. Is that what you mean?

[Frank] Yes.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] I think I knew that when I was a kid about this movie, and I just thought I couldn't quite comprehend that. That's also the -- the idea of how he puts swimming his way home when obviously you have to walk between pools, but --

[Rhonda] Okay. Right.

[Frank] So he -- he just does that. And his wife's like, "Where are you going?" He's like, "I'm swimming the county." And so he goes to the next neighbor and the next neighbor. And a lot of them, they know him and are just like, "Oh, hi. Enjoying the day?" And he's just like, "Yeah, I'm just going to jump in your pool." She's like, "Go for it." Everyone also gives -- like offers to make him a drink, or he asks for a drink and they're all happy to give it to him. Some are having parties, some aren't even home and he just swim in the pool and it gets out and continues. And as he keeps doing this, he's like almost halfway through. And he notices like, you know, he hears thunder in the distance and thinks, "It's a beautiful summer day, but I guess rain might be coming." And he hits another pool and has a conversation with one couple who are actually naked, and like sort of nudists in their backyard. And sort of relish the fact of being against the suburban grain in a way. Like doing things that are subversive, like they sort of enjoy being somewhat subversive, but not quite subversive enough to be pariahs possibly. But as he's going from pool to pool, he also notices the sky is getting darker. And at one point like a wind kicks up and the leaves are blown off the tree, he realizes the tree must be pretty darn sick because it's summer to lose its leaves like that. And hits a house that where the lady of the house -- the wife of the house says like, "Oh, you. Like what are you doing here?" And he's sort of like shocked, like, "What do you mean, what am I doing here? I'm like your -- your neighbor that everybody loves. Like I'm the golden boy." Middle aged golden boy, but a golden boy. And she's like, "Yeah, whatever, take a drink and get out." He's just like, huh? And so he -- and then he goes to the next house. One house he hits, like the pool is empty and the house is closed. And there's a for-sale sign, and he doesn't remember the neighbors that lived there ever having moved, and he doesn't -- he's confused as to why. And it gets darker and he's actually cold. And he finds it difficult to the next pool he hits to swim it. And finally, you know, he's close to his own house and it's pretty dark. And he is feeling like I've only been swimming for about an hour, I couldn't possibly -- especially when it's the longest days of the year in the summer. And he finally -- final ordeal goes through a public pool and -- which is an ordeal and then hits a pool of his mistress, a past mistress, who he just thinks is going to be so loving and welcoming. And she's completely like, "You destroyed my life basically." And he completely in the dark, cold, can't even swim anymore, pulls himself up the stairs of the pool rather than hoisting himself up like he was doing before and hits his own house. And realizes it's completely boarded up, abandoned and empty.

[Frank] Whoa, his house is?

[Frank] Yeah, and that's the end.

[Rhonda] And that's the end.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] So what do you make of that? That his house is --

[Frank] I don't know whether it says so hard, but it does. What do I --

[Rhonda] And what is his reaction as he --

[Frank] He's -- in the previous, before he hits his own house, he -- because of what's been happening, it says he starts crying. And it's also at different houses towards the end is alluded to like one house owner, you know, swimming in the pool says, "I'm so sorry to hear about your kids." That's all they say and he's like, "What do you mean? The kids are fine. They're playing tennis at the house now." And then the person is like, "Oh, sure. Okay." So you get like little drops of things aren't working out. Like it clearly it starts off idyllic and perfect, and then gets darker and darker, darker in terms of the weather in terms of the people he encounters. About how they first accept him and love him, and then slowly turning against him it seems. It's almost like that again, and these words are in The Swimmer. The repression of unpleasant facts. Almost like a surrealistic story of a man who -- almost as if like he did terrible things. He's a big drinker, the kids are not well. He's divorced. So the idyllic opening is almost like a disregard of what life is really about, like what's really happened to him. And then as he goes through the swimming thing, he slowly is pushed into reality until it's hits him full in the face at the end that he has just next to nothing. So that sort of fame again, of like not accepting what's really happening to you in the service of being a big guy, a success. A paragon of American culture, and when the reality is somewhat a different story. It's all -- it almost sounds like the progress of age too, like from vitality to -- to the end, and -- but it caught me in that he wasn't so likable in that he, you know, like you are -- you are with him at the beginning, but you sense a sense of aggrandizement, self-aggrandizement and a little bit of he knows his -- the stuff. But you go with that, and then as he's slowly sort of chipped away at, it's almost like the tragic hero. Like the odyssey almost. Like the Odysseus trying to go home. So you have this hero who could be egotistical and all sorts of things, but he's still a hero. And as his -- the armor is chipped away at with reality, it becomes something sympathetic because he's vulnerable and naked. And he's in a bathing suit this whole -- whole journey. So at the end, he ends up like pounding on the door of his -- of his ex-old house, you know, half naked and in the rain and cold. And it's -- there's no one there.

[Rhonda] Very tragic.

[Frank] It was a good story. I mean I don't know what people are thinking when they haven't read Cheever. What these stories are like, but they are in so many ways pleasurable. Some of them are very funny. They certainly like the one I told before has humor in it, farcical humor.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] The Swimmer was more straight up tragic, I thought.

[Rhonda] Yeah, that's what it sounds like. And just the imagery of just things getting darker and darker as he kind of has to face his -- his reality. Yeah.

[Frank] What was your -- what was your last story you read?

[Rhonda] You know, the last one I read was O City of Broken Dreams.

[Frank] Maybe I don't want to get into that one.

[Rhonda] I don't know. I mean I'll cover it really quickly. But it was -- it was kind of wild, you know, and it was just kind of this -- this couple who were -- what's the word? They were --

[Frank] Unhappy?

[Rhonda] They were not happy, but they were rural -- rural. They lived out in a rural area. I'm having trouble saying that word today. And this -- the guy writes -- the husband writes a play. And the wife is like, you know, she -- she shows it to this guy who's visiting the town who's like a famous playwright. And he's like, "This is a great play. I'm going to give you $35, and you come to New York and we're going to produce this play." And they just pick up, they leave everything behind the rural town. They get on the train, and they go to New York. And then kind of just like from there, it's chaos. You know, it's like these people and you don't know -- the whole time you're in the story, you almost kind of feel almost like dizzy because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if they're -- you don't know if they're being tricked, right? The whole time I'm like, "Are they -- are these people getting scammed?" But, you know, because there's like this bellhop who kind of keeps showing up. And he's like, "You don't want to go this agent, you want to go to this agent." And then, you know, the people who paid for him to come out there, they bring him to this party. And they're like introducing the actresses, and the wife embarrasses him because she sings at the party and everyone is laughing at her. And so he's like, "I'm going to this agent that the bellhop told me about." And then the other agent is like, "I'm going to sue you." And it just kind of goes -- it's just wild, because it's like the people in this -- from this very rural, not city sophisticated at all, just kind of being thrown into the business of Hollywood. And all these people wanting to use them and wanting to, you know, come after his talent. And kind of at the end, he's just like, "Let's just go back." And they do. And it's just kind of a wild ride of expectations. And -- and it's interesting. It's all I can say.

[Frank] Well, you did use the word chaos earlier.

[Rhonda] There is a lot of chaos in this story.

[Frank] Which is, you know, I think traumatic for John Cheever.

[Rhonda] Yeah --

[Frank] The introduction of disruption into someone's lives, and have that family member --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I mean that's --

[Rhonda] Yeah. And they're so hopeful. They're like, "He's going to be this big time playwright." And it seems for a moment that he will be, and then it's just like too much. And this is like -- he's like, this isn't where we belong. Yeah.

[Frank] Well, that's -- see that's interesting. And so it ends what?

[Rhonda] They go back. They leave --

[Frank] Happily or?

[Rhonda] New York. I mean --

[Frank] Disillusioned?

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly. They're disillusioned, but also kind of the realization that he's just like I can't -- he even said, you know, I can't write here in this city. Like even if he did love writing plays, he's like, "I just can't do it here." Because he's kind of missing everything that inspired him to write, you know, his play. But it was kind of chaos because the whole time as soon as you meet this -- this family on the train, and they're kind of telling the story to people that they meet about how he's going to go to New York and be a big time playwright, my head is automatically like, "This guy is getting scammed." The whole time I'm -- they're in New York, I'm waiting for the shoe to drop where, you know, someone steals all their money or, you know, someone steals his play or something. But that doesn't happen. He just ends up being disillusioned by this whole machine of New York City, and goes back.

[Frank] Well, I mean you could say at least he -- the couple weren't destroyed. Like you just said, like they weren't scammed and left with nothing or they, you know, as can be told the city sort of devoured them, right?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] They make a decision, or he makes a decision to go -- to get out of the city and go back home. And not necessarily happy as a clam about it, but makes that decision, which is a different color because it shows someone making a decision rather than just letting the chaos subsume them. And I guess, you know, that's another thing that I think adult life is so right with. And that we're -- we have to make decisions and often afraid of making decisions, because we want to make the right decision. And also when we make a decision, we want to make sure that we're going to be happy and okay. You know, we're afraid of the wrong decision then pitching us into more suffering than we're already in. When I like -- that's why I asked like are they okay with when they leave? And you said no, there's a -- there's a bit of a battered feeling about them, you'd say?

[Rhonda] Right. Yeah, there is a bit of -- but it's also because I don't believe they go necessarily back home, but they're just leaving and they're going to someplace that's more like what they're used to.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And, you know, it's kind of like this idea of they're just excited about what this whole world could be, and sometimes you realize that what you think is going to be so great really isn't so great, right? And that's not always a bad thing to have learned that lesson. And that's kind of what they go through. And they're disappointed, but it's not the end for them. You know, it doesn't -- he doesn't seem like he's not ever going to write again. They haven't, like you said they're not destroyed. They're just, you know --

[Frank] That is the maturity to it.

[Rhonda] Yeah, although --

[Frank] There's more real life aspect to it. Yeah, I guess that fear of like disappointment also. Like we fear disappointment and that we feel like it might change us. And we'll lose that energy of success, like that striving towards success. But yeah, I guess when you're older, you realize that's bound to happen invariably, you know, just how you manage it.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Oh, boy. Well, I am not going to go into my third story. I read a book called Goodbye, My Brother.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] You know, I mean let me see. It was the first story in the collection. I read one from the beginning, middle and then towards the end. Again, it picks up a lot of the themes, just a family story, but -- and there are two brothers in this family. And in a quick nutshell, like they -- the one is sort of very positive and like wants to feel like everything is okay. And that their summer house that their family has had for years is like a place of sanctuary, and his younger brother who sort of has separated himself from the family because he made decisions. He -- it says at one point, he made a decision -- their father has died in a sailing accident when they were younger. So there's no father in the picture. And he -- the younger brother makes a decision that their mother is really just not a great gal, and he's going to separate from her. And he goes off and builds his career on his own, like barely coming into the family. And when he does, there's always tension and so he's remarkable because everyone else in the family just sort of carries the banner of, you know, we're -- we're us, we're proud to be us. We have a pretty great, decent life. And the younger brother just sort of criticizes everything. He tells the truth about -- about the things he brings up. But to other family members, it sounds negative and unnecessary. Like why do you bring it up? Yeah, it's true, but why bring it up? And so there's a climax where the two brothers sort of have a confrontation and, you know, a violent one that ends with everyone alive. But it forces the issue of who's -- when you're reading it, you're thinking who's -- who's to trust here, because the -- the first person -- the narrator is the positive thinking one. And the -- so you're not in the head of the younger so called more negative thinking one. And it's almost as if it could be two sides of the same personality, like a pessimistic side and an optimistic side. Or as you read on you think, well, maybe the narrator isn't so reliable because he's -- he just sort of wants things to be always nice and good and -- and stress relieving. And that their family is okay, and the younger brother is bringing up truths that are hard to face. So again, that issue of facing facts, facing unpleasant truths that may or may not be there. Because again, you don't have the younger brother's point of view, just the older ones. And it's an interesting -- it's an interesting thing to contemplate like how much -- first of all family dynamics is one, and how families sort of sometimes all agree not to talk about certain things in service of the greater glory of the family, or that everything is okay. And, you know, there's always maybe someone in the family who's just like, "Well, you know." Sort of like the story Enormous Radio you said when the husband finally brings up all the terrible things the wife did. You know, there's always those -- those fissures in the sort of porcelain facade of the family that sometimes cracks open. But who's right, who's wrong? And how -- how far do you go sometimes? How much -- how much is too much? And what does too much mean like, you know, for a family? Oh, my God.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank] I actually want to -- I definitely want to read more stories of his.

[Rhonda] I do too. I definitely want to read The Swimmer.

[Frank] Oh good. I'm glad.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] I think -- some of them are very short and some of them are a little longer, but most of them are short. And I like that Meryl Streep read one of them, but --

[Rhonda] Yeah. The Enormous Radio, and I think there were some other ones that she read on there, but I didn't get to all, you know, didn't get to all of them, but -- and it's great to -- and I know that also John Cheever reads some of them.

[Frank] Oh really?

[Rhonda] And I -- yeah, and I started one of the ones that he was -- did he read The Swimmer?

[Frank] I think he did. I think I've heard about that.

[Rhonda] Yeah, but it was started -- I think it sounded really, really fast for me so I stopped. But it's always interesting to hear authors read their own work. Some are good, some are not.

[Frank] Yeah. Not exactly the defining definitive version necessarily, because sometimes an outsider can pick up different things than the person who wrote it themselves, you know, like a trained actor like Meryl Streep --

[Rhonda] Meryl Streep, yes. And who read the -- which one was it? The city -- O City of Broken Dreams was Blythe Danner. So that --

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] You know who Blythe Danner is.

[Rhonda] Yeah, yeah. I know Blythe Danner.

[Frank] Do you know her family relationship?

[Rhonda] Gwyneth Paltrow --

[Frank] It's terrible to reduce her to just Gwyneth Paltrow's mothers, because she was and is a famous actress in her own right.

[Rhonda] Right. Exactly.

[Frank] Blythe Danner, she's got a great voice.

[Rhonda] She does. She -- she read it beautifully.

[Frank] Oh, I'm interested that -- that I'm glad that they were female readers of the stories, because they are usually narrated through a male voice.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Right?

[Rhonda] Right. And the other one that Meryl Streep read, which I didn't get to finish was Sorrows of Gin, which was -- yeah. So yeah.

[Frank] Sorrows of Gin, the booze you mean.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] I know.

[Frank] So if anyone is in the mood for the flip -- well, not the flip side of Mad Men, but like an ancillary work of ours aside next to Mad Men, John Cheever's stories cover that. A lot of that same ground in terms of time and history and class, and race in American culture. But yeah. So you enjoyed it, yeah?

[Rhonda] Yeah, I did actually.

[Frank] Okay. I was wondering what --

[Rhonda] It was a little sad and depressing, but they were -- they are, you know, really well written interesting stories.

[Frank] It does. It just skirts sadness, but like yeah. But that's okay if you're in the mood.

[Rhonda] Right [laughs].

[Frank] Well, darling, it was always a -- it's always a pleasure.

[Rhonda] Yes, of course. And next time we will surprise each other with our own picks.

[Frank] Correct, we'll see what that brings. And then we'll see what books we'll read together again, pulling from what New York Public Library lists, we'll see. And go from there. So take care everybody, and stay safe. Stay sexy.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to the Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcasts or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.