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This week Rhonda and Frank read The Turn of the Screw by Henry James from the NYPL's 125 Books We Love list. Whether you had a chance to read the book or not, we think you'll agree that this week's episode is a fun listen.

The Turn of the Screw by Henry James

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In. The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Francis.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda. I'm not going to attempt the English accent because you did it so much better than me, Frank.

[Frank] But, Rhonda, you're our new governess. You're our new governess. You're here to take care of us, Rhonda, aren't you? [brief laughter].

[Rhonda] Oh, Frank. I don't even -- I love it.

[Frank] She's like, "Don't even start with me. Don't start with me."

[Rhonda] [brief laughter] I was trying to attempt it, like in my head I was trying to formulate the accent and then it just would not come out [brief laughter].

[Frank] Oh, that's all right. I have accents to spare. Actually, I don't seem to have accents to spare. I was default to some sort of bad British one. But there you go, it sort of pertains to the book, you know what I mean?

[Rhonda] And you know I listened to a wonderful British accent for this book.

[Frank] "Turn of the Screw" by Henry James. That's what we're discussing. And --

[Rhonda] 1898.

[Frank] Nineteen -- Oh, 1898.

[Rhonda] It's 1898. Yeah. I feel like I need to put the year in there.

[Frank] Yeah. Yeah. That's important. It's like late Victorian era, I guess.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But you listened to the -- an audio of this book.

[Rhonda] I did. And I listened -- the narrator was the Actress, Tuppence Middleton. So I never watched "Downton Abbey" but it says that she was an actress on "Downton Abbey". And she was very good. I highly recommend it.

[Frank] Did she also do the prologue of the book?

[Rhonda] Yes. Or she did the introduction. I don't -- I have to go back and check to see what edition she was reading. I think it was like a 2004, 2005 introduction that she read, but yes, she did that.

[Frank] Well, there's -- there are a couple of editions of "Turn of the Screw" by Henry James that Henry James himself amended and added things, and tinkered with a bit. But not that, you know, appreciably, he didn't tinker with it that much. The edition I had, which is "The Penguin" has some footnotes on sentences he amended or added, to changing it a little, not really changing it, but enhancing it. It seemed more like it. But what I meant by -- well, first of all --

[Rhonda] No, I read "The Penguin" too.

[Frank] Yes. Okay.

[Rhonda] So the prologue in terms of -- it was like a separate prologue that he wrote maybe.

[Frank] What I meant was the -- like you have the main story narrated by the governess --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -- and you have the setup.

[Rhonda] Yes. Yes, of course.

[Frank] Yes. That's what I meant. Like the prologue to sort of the meat of the book. Is an interesting thing to discuss, actually. So those of you listening and not aware, we are reading -- we read "Turn of the Screw" by Henry James. And this book is one of the 123rd books we love. The New York Library is 125 for -- to celebrate the New York Public Library's 125th anniversary. Well, I'm getting very good at this.

[Rhonda] I'd have to say. It actually got a little better over time. Like it [brief laughter] you improved in the past few moments.

[Frank] Oh, I'm getting very good at this, I am. Now I'm going to get different clothes.

[Rhonda] That's a different kind of -- this you -- that's more of a Mrs. Grose --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- kind of thing. That's what I hear Mrs. Gross sounding like.

[Frank] So all of you listening should know of what we speak if we are at least somewhat coherent, because you should have read it along with us. And if you haven't, welcome and [brief laughter] if you have, join us, won't you?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] So I guess, we can sort of knock off. We can knock off, like, let's finish. We can start off with, I guess, the-- at the very beginning. Let's start at the very beginning. The very good place to start. You know where that's from, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah. But they weren't British.

[Frank] Well, they had that sound of music accents, like European, like they were [multiple speakers].

[Rhonda] Yeah. Weren't they in Austria?

[Frank] Exactly. But, you know, a default British accent is always there or Mid-Atlantic accent.

[Rhonda] One thing I would add, although I don't know -- I didn't do a lot of any really research on this except for the fact that this was serialized in Collier's Weekly. So I always think that's interesting when these, you know, late 19th century books weren't just, you know, presented to the public in a way that we are consuming them, but they got it almost like how we would watch a television series. Each week, they would get a little, you know, a little bit more of the story. So I think that's kind of interesting to point out that we are experiencing it differently than the original readers of this book, in terms of it being serialized. I just wanted to point that. And it's illustrated as well. If you look it up, there's illustrations. It's really nice.

[Frank] Are they as creepy?

[Rhonda] A little bit.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, it's interesting like, you know, you live long enough that nothing really is new. Like formats have been around in some way forever. Because it's interesting that you pick up via magazine, I suppose, it was serialized and then eagerly look forward to the next episode. I guess you couldn't binge it because you had to wait literally.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It's sort of like not too long ago when we had to wait for a show to air.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's sort of the same thing. And I wonder actually how that impacts one's imagination or brain in that you're looking forward to reading something that's extremely exciting and engrossing, as opposed to looking forward to watching something that's extremely inciting and engrossing. I guess that's the -- excuse me, the truth for me, it's the difference of language. I mean, even though TV shows can have incredibly good language or well-done dialogue and scripts, reading somehow gives me an extra something. And --

[Rhonda] And --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And I was going to say, just kind of how did they experience these serialized books? It's like, you know, was it the family gathered around the fireplace each time the issue came out and they kind of someone read it aloud, you know, just how was it? And even the writing of it. Because I know that Charles Dickens, when he was serialized things, he didn't write the whole thing out in advance. It would be published and then he would write the next part. So he kind of didn't know where the story was going and was kind of experiencing the writing along with people reading. And I don't know how Henry James did it. But that's also another avenue to explore.

[Frank] You know, I don't know if -- how Henry James did it either. But my guess considering what I do know of this book is that he did write it. He wrote it out in one shot. Like he didn't do it in installments to see how people reacted. Oops, traffic.

[Rhonda] New York.

[Frank] We're home. Excuse me. So I think -- and also because I think as we will probably touch on the book is so carefully mapped out. I don't think he could have broached a intrusion from a reader indicating what direction James should go in for the next installment or his own imagination changing. I think this was done like as a puzzle that was completed and needed to be completed. But one more thing before we go into it, I guess, unless you have something else, is that the language itself, and I was referring to language before, is well known to be -- Henry James is well known to be not the easiest person to read. I wonder what it was like to listen to, but I'll ask you that later. Because reading him is very complicated. He's known for his very long sentences, sometimes lack of punctuation or lots of punctuation. A sentence could have like three a size in it and then comes back to the original point the sentence starting out to make. And I had an example I'll give later, but that's an exciting thing. Like I've always said for the 10,000th time [brief laughter], I love to crack the rhythm of an author's writing. I love to find out how they're communicating to me and understand it. And when you -- when I do understand it's very satisfying. But there were definitely times where a sentence went by and I was like I often realized, wait, I don't even know what I read. I have to go back and --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- kind of figure that one out. But I wonder the language then for a reader if it was something that was more difficult or if they were more attuned to, I guess, those who would read or could attune to a language and its vicissitudes. I don't know.

[Rhonda] I don't know.

[Frank] It's a good --

[Rhonda] I mean, it was a little dense, definitely.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And while I was listening to it, to be honest, I probably might've missed a few things, you know?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Because sometimes just listening to it and you're, you know, it can -- that can happen. But definitely I was able to get the overall feel of this story. I didn't -- I had to be honest, I didn't do like a close, close reading and listening, but I enjoyed it. I got the overall themes and feeling, and came away with some really strong thoughts so that helped.

[Frank] Oh, I mean, there are some readers who are just like, not going to deal with Henry James at all. I mean, I did a little looking online, a little research. But like I read a review that actually was hilarious on Goodreads. And the read -- review on Goodreads of "Turn of the Screw" was just words, words, words, words, scared, words, words, words, death, words, words, words, is she crazy? Words, words, words, the end. I mean, it was just words, words, words, which I love but clearly, this reader did not.

[Rhonda] Yeah. It's lot of words. But it's not a long book, but if it feels longer because like you said, the writing is just so -- it's so dense. There's a lot there. There's a lot to dissect.

[Frank] It's a pleasure though. I mean, you know, I read it one night when I was tired and I, you know, I read this chapter and I didn't understand a work I was reading. And then I picked it up the next day, fully rested and suddenly it was clear as crystal or -- and I sort of loved that experience. To me, that's an experience. Because it engages your brain directly, you have to be a participant. You have to. So anyway, the story. I don't know where to begin. Where do you want to begin [brief laughter]?

[Rhonda] I think you need to give a synopsis.

[Frank] Well, all right.

[Rhonda] Pretty straightforward with the -- just the, you know, just the facts.

[Frank] Yeah. All right. Again, like I said 10 hours ago, but let's start at the very beginning. We could say that the main narrative is, a first-person narrative of a 20-year-old woman who actually wrote this, the narrative, many years later, but about herself at 20, when she is engaged by a wealthy man to take care of his nephew and niece at this country estate called Bly in England. And she accepts and goes to this, estate and takes care of these two children. She then encounters what she perceives to be ghosts and then proceeds from there on her mission to, I suppose, save the children from these apparitions. But the -- there is a prologue, as I said before, or a introduction, so to speak, in the body of the novel that sets up -- sets this up as even more of a narrative because --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- there is an I at the beginning who says, "I," he says, "I," wait.

[Rhonda] They're telling kind of -- they're entertaining. It's like a group entertaining each other in front of a fireplace. And we kind of don't know what the event -- why all these people are together. I don't think it said that.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But --

[Frank] It's the Christmas Eve tradition of telling ghost.

[Rhonda] Right. It's like Christmas Eve or something like that.

[Frank] But it's sort of set up like as a tension building thing, because there's an I narrator who introduces one of their group as Douglas, who this Douglas says he has a story to tell that's even scary than the ones that have already been shared. And that it's actually written down by the woman we've mentioned before, the governess, who had -- he had met because that same woman many years later after these, events of these story with a governess of his own sister. And that he could retrieve this document from his home, but it would take a couple of days to send like a messenger with a key to the drawer and open the drawer and get the document and bring it back. And then he would -- he was going to read it. And then he does. And then you get to the first narrative, first person narrative of a woman. But before that you have an I saying he's part of this group and that then this Douglas guy who is the one that has this actual narrative and then you get the narrative. So I don't really know what that means. But there --

[Rhonda] I was wondering that too. It was like, what was the purpose of this setup?

[Frank] I mean, it builds tension certainly, because we're all waiting to get to the story.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It does also give background and now, I guess, we could go into it. Because it does give background in that, the Douglas character whose younger sister had the governess, whose story is just in the novel, indicates she was a lovely woman and she's very bright. And tell us a little bit about her background is that she was a very sheltered girl who grew up in a small town with multiple siblings, and was very sheltered as the governess herself says later, "What a very smothered actually life." Which could not be a pejorative. It could be just tamped down and small, but still it has connotations now.

[Rhonda] And you know, I guess another thing -- sorry --

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] -- that it does is, and I just kind of thought of this, is it does kind of show you what happens afterwards because there are a lot of just open-ended questions that are never really answered, but you do kind of see that she is able, you know, after everything that happens in this story, able to move on and continue to work. And so I think that kind of gives us an insight into something.

[Frank] That's a great point because once the narrative, which is the bulk of the novel of 120 pages, kicks in, you end with the governess' narrative when she was 20 and you don't go back to this group before the fire or Douglas reading the story. You don't get their reaction. You don't get anything like that. So that's a good point because a lot is made of that it just ends. You don't get a framing device of these storytellers and the people around the fire listening to the story. So you don't get that. But yet, in a way you do, as you just pointed out, because clearly after the, what some would say horrific events of the book, she clearly survived it and went on to be -- continued to be a governess in life. And, at least, as perceived by this Douglas character as a pleasant woman who did survive it. That's a very good point considering --

[Rhonda] [multiple speakers]. Yeah. It's making me think about some things, Frank. Give me a lot of thought. It gives me a lot of thoughts.

[Frank] You know, let's see if that comes back. Would you have one to share it? Or do you want to see if it comes back when we talk about the narrative?

[Rhonda] Let's see if it comes back. I'm still kind of letting it marinate.

[Frank] So then she picks up the story. Douglas is reading this narrative and she tells, which is also alluded to in the prologue, let's call it, that when she answers an ad for her first job ever in life with this slightly older, well-to-do handsome, charismatic, man. She clearly, if anything can be clear in this book, which is almost so few it seems to be explicit, but she does admit, and it is alluded to at the beginning that she was attracted to him and almost wanted to do it for him. And that when he asked her to take on this job, she felt as if she was doing him a favor in a good way. And that she felt beholdent him, I think she was a little enamored with him. Did you -- do you agree?

[Rhonda] I think she was a little enamored with him. And then kind of just as a character study, I would say, she just seems to be the kind of person who just kind of jumps all in on things in terms of conclusions and, you know, choices. So I don't know. She doesn't seem like she really kind of has like, "Oh, let me think about." Well, I guess she did think about it a little bit, but I don't know. She seems like an extremist a little bit. So the fact that she meets this guy that she kind of is enamored with and is just so eager to do something for them, seems to kind of go along with what we see in the rest of the book from her. If that makes sense.

[Frank] Yeah, yeah. For sure. And, you know, he does give the proviso that she will be the supreme authority at the country house. There will be servants and the two children, his niece and nephew, but she will be the ultimate authority. And along with that too, should make all decisions, the money he sends, but never, never, never, never bother him. So never, ever approach him, never bother him, just handle it. So she's slightly nervous, but excited by that. So yeah, it could appeal to an extremist aspect of her because it's also said that several applicants had declined because of the strangeness of that request.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So she does take it on. And she does this. She then goes to the house. She does have passages where she's ruminating that everything she's doing, she's doing for his audience. That she wants to please him and that she wants words somehow to get back to him that she's doing a good job. So it's definitely a motivating factor, her sort of enamoredness of him and that -- or the power of his personality over her has been a motivating factor for her. And, again, she's 20 years old, first job, like a secluded, what's the word? Sequestered, small village upbringing.

[Rhonda] Yeah. Very kind of sheltered as they said.

[Frank] Right. That's the word that you said. And she's -- so she's now in this big, beautiful mansion with a couple of servants and these two kids. And the two kids is interesting too, because it's this -- I don't know. I couldn't make much of it either, but it is an interesting point. When the kids are mentioned by this -- by the guy, the uncle who's not named, I don't believe, neither is the governess. She's --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- the narrative.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] He says that his brother had died two years ago and then his parents were taking care, you know, the grandparents that took of the kids -- was taking care of the kids, and then they died. No mention is made of the children's mother. It's his brother who died first. Then this guy and this brother's parents, the grandparents of the kids were taking care of the kids. And then they died as if they died together.

[Rhonda] Oh, I think I missed that.

[Frank] I was digging in a little bit. And so I was like, wait, where's the mother then? When you think you'd mentioned the mother, especially in a Victorian. I don't know it. I was interested why they didn't mention the mother. But it also sets up the kids as being in -- they're 8 and 10 years old. Flora, the younger is eight. Miles, the older brother is 10. So in the past, like 10 or 2, 4, 6 years, they lost two sets of parents, two sets of caretakers. So when they were like, you know, four or six years old, they were losing their caretakers. So they -- that sort of set up a psychology of these children as well. And then they're moved from India, which is where they were --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- to this country house, Bly.

[Rhonda] And then they meet another set of caretakers.

[Frank] Right. And then --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Right. She -- they have a governess and the housekeeper, Mrs. Grose, who's a figure on this, taking care of them. But Ms. Jessel, the first governess dies. And that's why this new governess, the narrative story is going to Bly to take care of the children. And she does, so.

[Rhonda] She goes there and she meets them. And, again, kind of when I was saying about her just being extremist, the way that she describes these children as soon as she meets them, it's just like, they're these perfect angels that have come down from heaven. It's kind of not like, "Oh, they seem nice. Let me get to know them." It's like, "They're absolutely the most beautiful, wonderful children that I've ever seen." And I thought that was just how she just makes these opinions, these assumptions about people. I think it says a lot about her as we will say.

[Frank] Yeah. Or I mean a perception of childhood. That's now perfect because she does go on about how beautiful they are, and their beautiful voices, and their attitudes, and how -- what wonderful angels they are. And Mrs. Grose, the housekeepers are like, "Yeah, they are, you know, like they're wonderful children, of course." And Mrs. Grose becomes sort of like a confidant friend to this governess, and someone that will be her ally through the book in lots of ways. But then as soon as she -- pretty much after she arrives there or soon after, and she meets the daughter, who's primarily the one she's supposed to take care of. Because the older boy has been sent to boarding school. But they get a letter that's for the uncle who doesn't want to hear about it because he forwards it to the governess that basically says Miles, the kid, has been expelled from school and he's not invited to return after the vacation, the holiday. So but -- and it says something like, "Because he's been perceived to be an injury to others," and --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- it doesn't say explicitly what Miles has done to warrant being expelled. But, of course, that causes some consternation for the governess and her confidant, Mrs. Grose, the housekeeper. So that's the first sort of fly in the ointment. That's so -- it's sort of a little like pa, pa, pa, or done, done, done moment --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- maybe, which I found interesting only because I went back to look after I read it to see certain timeframes. It's after she reads the letter and realizes she can't go for the uncle -- to the uncle for advice or say, "What do you want me to do? Like he's got to go to school eventually or should I just teach him myself? Like I'm teaching the girl or." So she walks around the grounds and she sees a figure on a parapet or like a tower of the castle slash country house that she doesn't recognize. She can't really see him fully, but she knows she's no one she had met. She goes through all the, like the gardener, the cook, you know, it's no one she's met. So she's startled and stunned by this apparition.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And I should say, again, she sees this first apparition after she's reads the letter that's sort of, like we just said about the beauty of these children. And if she is so extreme, she's sort of like loving these kids right away, it's an almost an immediate, I think I'm using a lazy phrase, but fly in the ointment, is that it's an immediate sort of undercutting of that. So it's got to be destabilizing and maybe more destabilizing than we today, which would be like, "Well, life happens, you know, stuff happens. Let's figure it out. Let's talk about it." But then maybe it sort of was something that was not conscious for her, but it was like a -- it was a little bit -- it was definitely a bother for her.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It made her think about --

[Rhonda] What she was going to do about it. And almost kind of I feel like she almost kind of didn't want to believe that this was a real thing. I don't know if you saw it that way because she just wanted to accept her view of these children being perfect and wonderful. So kind of just like maybe if we just ignore this, that's the right thing to do.

[Frank] Did she even -- well, did she say -- she didn't go that far.

[Rhonda] No, she didn't go that far, but there was a conversation and she's like, well, you know, there are a lot of avenues she could have taken, but kind of I think what she basically does is say, "Let's just ignore it."

[Frank] I sort of don't remember that. I mean, that's -- she might've, I don't think ignore might be the word. She might have been like --

[Rhonda] Maybe not ignore.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But they don't take any definitive action.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] [inaudible] her.

[Frank] They don't make a definitive choice with the housekeeper who she confides with, confides in the governess. But that just like really leads to what I was saying about when she sees this apparition during her walk. Is that -- during her walk, she does sort of build up a bit by saying, she's going to figure it out. She's going to make it work. She's going to figure out why the kids got expelled and handle it, and the uncle is going to be really proud of her. Like she's sort of building herself up on her walk. Like, "I can do this. I can do this." Like, "I can make this okay. I can -- it's my challenge, and I'm going to do this, and he's going to be proud of me, and he's going to see me. He's going to see my triumph." So she doesn't probably know what she's going to do, but she does frame it for her in the framework of the uncle being pleased. That we've acknowledged, she had some sort of attraction to. It's a great passage. And then she sees the man apparition on the top of the tower, talks to the housekeeper about it. And, you know, well, actually then another visitation happens. But, I guess, I'm trying to possibly set up a scenario of how she could be emotionally destabilized --

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] -- by her one, attraction to the uncle and two, her determination to actually be a success, to be a victor in whatever challenge is put her way, no matter what it might be, especially for him. I mean, we should say like this book has certainly been analyzed and discussed in the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many ways. And --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] -- it can be, well, I guess, you know, most people listening would know. I mean, it's certainly, I believe, well known to be a book that you -- I don't know if I should say this, but you can't really land anywhere. I mean, you can land lots of places, but you can't get the text to tell you exactly, "Oh, that's what happened." It's so -- it's written in such a way that you can almost interpret different passages and moments differently, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah. Because he was very deliberate, I think, in writing it in a way that, I guess, you would say kind of playing both sides. He doesn't give you that -- the any of those kinds of little hints that really make you say, "Okay, I think this is where this has gone." And that's why I think the prologue, as you said, is so interesting. Because the only thing that kind of gives you a little bit of information about what might've happened, in my opinion. Again, we'll see if we get there.

[Frank] Yeah. So she sees the, yeah, the big man, the apparition of the man. And then I think she mentioned it to Mrs. Grose. And she's like, "Well, it must have been somebody, you know. Maybe you didn't see him, clearly. It was sunny and you were dazzled, and or someone from the village, who knows?" And they just don't make much of it. But then she sees him again much closer in the parlor or something outside a window. She's walking into a room and she sees this guy looking in at her, and realized this the same guy, she says. And he then his eyes sort of cast about the room and she then becomes convinced he's not looking for her, per se, but for someone else.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And she's terrified, but she runs out to this -- the outside to see what's going on and he has disappeared. So then she mentioned that to Mrs. Grose, and it seems through her description that it matches the description of the uncle's valet or, you know, personal assistants, if you will, who had also died as the original governess had. Like drunkenly one night on his horse, he fell off or something. So now, we set up that the two previous help, tenants, or -- that were servants in the house have died. And now, she's apparently seen one of them as a ghost.

[Rhonda] Right [brief laughter]. Exactly.

[Frank] So I mean, and she goes -- I mean, I guess, we don't have to go minute, minute by minute, but --

[Rhonda] Yeah. But --

[Frank] Go ahead.

[Rhonda] [brief laughter] I was just going to say, and then -- I was going to kind of fast forward to the second apparition.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] [inaudible] when she's, I think, she's with the little girl, Flora, and they're kind of out by a lake, I believe.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And she sees her kind of in the distance staring. And, again, she goes to Mrs. Grose and gives her the description of this woman that she seen. And Mrs. Grose said, "Oh, that's Miss -- that sounds like Ms. Jessell." And she kind of tells Ms. Jessel's story, and gives a little bit of the story in terms of how Ms. Jessell and Mr. Quint were close.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Now, not really knowing exactly what that means, I guess, we could infer that it was a, maybe a romance, but they were of different classes, it sounds like. So there's like some scandal there. And then it sounds like -- and as Mrs. Grose tells it, Ms. Jessel was very close with Flora while Mr. Quint had kind of developed this relationship with Miles.

[Frank] Right. Like Miles, Quint was a sort of rough and tumble guy, and Ms. Jessel, the governess, was a lady.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But I do have to say, I love the way Henry James writes the passage about when the governess first seeing Ms. Jessel across the lake on other side, and sort of Flora is sitting in front of the governess facing the lake and the other side of the Lake. And how Henry James writes the governess is observing Flora -- after the governess sees this operation across the lake, she observes Flora's back because Flora's back is to her. And she observes Flora and starts to --and this is where it gets psychologically interesting, starts to feel very conclusively that Flora sees as well. That Flora is seeing Ms. Jessel but is pretending, Flora, not to have seen. And she -- Henry James describes the governess is watching Flora as suddenly changing how she's playing, like she's getting a little more busy and her song that she's singing to herself is getting a little more louder. And so as if she's almost trying to distract the governess from seeing that she, Flora, is seeing this apparition also. So what you get in this scene is the governess is starting to believe that not only is she seeing strange beings, the children also are involved, but are not acknowledging them to her, the governess, which is interesting.

[Rhonda] Very interesting.

[Frank] I wish I could -- I'm looking through my notes, if I can find that passage. But it is really wonderfully written. It sort of -- and very creepy because the Ms. Jessel apparition is across in the reeds, across this lake. And Flora -- like the idea of looking at a child's back almost like looking at -- or anyone's back and thinking you know what they're thinking and doing, it's sort of creepy in itself because you can't see their face.

[Rhonda] Exactly. I was thinking the same thing.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, I love that the first apparition visitations, because with also with Quint on the tower, it's describing him running -- Quint, which we know, Quint, running his hands over the crenellations in the tower. There was sort of like classic medieval design of a top of a tower, like a rook in chess, and how he turns away. Actually, I just noticed that note. I wanted to see what that was. The chapter ends after she sees the first ghost, Quint. She ends -- the chapter ends. He turned away. That was all I knew. And I find that interesting in a way that I re-read it because, all right, I can see at this moment the way his hand as he went, moved from one of the crenellations to the next, he stopped at the other corner, but less long. And even as he turned away, still markedly fixed me. He turned away. That was all I knew. And then you go to the next chapter. And somehow, I reread that as almost as if appointment, or maybe stand in for the uncle that she's attracted to that someone that he was staring at her so seriously, but then he turned away and that it was all she knew. What does that sound like to you? I mean, it sounds so -- he turned away. That was all I knew.

[Rhonda] I know. I mean, I see what you're saying, kind of taking this as he's not interested in her. And so she doesn't know really like what he's there for or --

[Frank] I know.

[Rhonda] -- who's he's interested in, but it's not her.

[Frank] Okay. I mean [multiple speakers]. Like you said, right, it could tie into the fact that it's -- this is the beginning of her realization that these ghosts are after the kids, not her, right?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm. Or someone.

[Frank] Or what?

[Rhonda] Yeah, or someone. You know, they're interested in something that's not her.

[Frank] I guess I was rereading it, it's like she was sort of like rejected. Like she wanted attention. I think she does want attention though, for sure.

[Rhonda] I think she does want attention. But I think there's something that you see in this story that connects everything that she's doing to the uncle.

[Frank] I seem to be making the case, which was not what I was thinking before we started recording this, but maybe that's what's inside of me. I mean, maybe I -- here I go again. I'm making it a love story. I'm trying to find the romantic partnership, even though the uncle never appears and they make it very clear at the beginning, she's only seen him twice. Meaning the first time she'd met him and then she'd expect the job, and then she accepts it. That's the second time and that's the end of it. So maybe I should just let it go. But --

[Rhonda] No, I mean, it could be that could have been the intention, but that's not how I saw it, but I felt like that's very interesting that that's how you're tying it.

[Frank] I mean, I'm looking for -- I always look for like motivations, like what motivates a personality and like oftentimes, like romantic love or that impulse can be a motivator. And she was a sheltered 20-year-old. And I'm wondering if this is the first taste of like seeing an attractive town man, that she's sort of just not blatantly sort of saying what she feels or even knowing what she feels, but that it infuses her psyche and psychology as she goes to this place. But let's move on [brief laughter].

[Rhonda] No, that's a good motivation. And I love the term town man, attractive town man.

[Frank] Yeah [brief laughter]. Town man.

[Rhonda] Attractive town man. Could be this attractive town man.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Or I was also thinking it could have been motivated by the fact that she has kind of complete control, complete power maybe for the first time ever. You know, why the uncle saying, "Okay, this is you. You make all of the decisions." And now there's these things and she's the one who's supposed to be in charge of protecting everyone. I don't know.

[Frank] I agree with you. I actually think you're right. And I think you could say that it does evolve. Because eventually the uncle is dropped from her thoughts because clearly things get intense, but I think you're absolutely right. It could be an evolution --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- that she goes from sort of this, you know, romantic fantasy to like the, "I have a mission and I'm going to succeed at it. And I'm going to save these kids from the evil of these two ghosts." As you said before, like these -- in life, they -- there's -- it's alluded to that they had a relationship, a sexual relationship, that might've been shared with the kids.

[Rhonda] Yeah. That was inferred.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Kind of.

[Frank] So you got these kids who've lost like a couple of sets of parents already, moved from one country to another, and then encounter these servant who are in direct care of them that might've shared truly -- I mean, this is a great thing about Henry James, is like to our -- I wonder what mind then thought of as our minds think now. Like what particularly they could have shared with them because well, we could say, well, I don't know why I married to this chronology. Do we -- we don't have to be chronological.

[Rhonda] No, we don't have to do a chronological. And then just kind of thinking, you know, there was this inference, like there might've been some type of sexual relationship with the children.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But then on the other hand, could it have been that these were just kind of parental figures that stepped in and developed a very close relationship. Do you feel like it --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -- because that leans more one way towards the other.

[Frank] You know, the confounding thing about the book is that it can go multiple ways as we know. Well, like it kicks off -- like the event that kicks off a lot of these, that Miles is expelled from school. At -- toward -- at the end -- at the climax of the book, we discover, he -- she just nails him to the wall and says, "Why were you expelled?" And he basically says, "Because I said things."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And she was like, "What did you -- like to who?" And he was like, "Well, to people I liked." Miles says. And they shared what I said to people they liked and then the masters of the school, boarding school, heard about it and that's why he was expelled. She never gets out of him what exactly he said.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] We never really know.

[Frank] But you can -- you almost infer that it could have been sexual in nature. It could have been something he had heard from Quint or observed from Quint and Ms. Jessel of what happened there. And that he was sharing like, sort of randy story with the boys and they got all, you know, excitable and that made the very Victorian headmasters at the boarding house expel him. I mean, if that's serious enough, right?

[Rhonda] Yeah. But, again, you just -- we just don't know.

[Frank] Right. Because it's --

[Rhonda] It's just --

[Frank] You know, I often find that the characters in this book answer -- ask the questions that I heard -- were just coming to my mind. Like --

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I never had a moment where I'm like, why don't you just ask the kid? Like, what happened? Because even though you think you would do it right away like, but it's months later before she really gets into it with him. The way it's written is that it's it -- she says like, you know, like you said, I'm going to keep this on the down low. I'm not going to get crazy about it. I'm not going to torture this clearly angelic kid about why he possibly did. And also hoping that maybe some answer will surface.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I guess, in a very polite framework, a very heavily mannered framework where there's matters like that. So I buy it the way James wrote it. But then when it comes to it, suddenly the questions are asked just when I'm expecting them to be asked. Like what did you write? What did you say in -- to get you expelled? And then you get more obfuscation about emotional tension in the situations that you don't fully get an answer. Or you get an illusion where someone is starting to, and you just don't get the actual answer.

[Rhonda] And that letter does kind of hangs there over the entire story. And to me, I think from the very beginning, I was always waiting for the children to do something or to reveal themselves as is evil, or I don't know. But I thought that just the way that she kind of fond over them from the very beginning, and then kind of having this letter that's just hanging out there, I was just waiting for something to happen with the kids. To be -- something to be revealed about them, which I feel like never really happened in the way, at least, that I was expecting it to.

[Frank] So you had no experience with the narrative of this story at all? So you didn't know what was going to happen?

[Rhonda] Nothing. I had no clue. I had -- I did not know anything about the story.

[Frank] So you thought then that the kids were going to possibly, at one point, you said they were going to reveal themselves to actually be evil beings preyed upon by other evil beings. Is that where you thought this was going?

[Rhonda] I hadn't had a whole story kind of going into my head as where this was going to go. I really thought, okay, so here's this very, very kind of innocent sheltered young woman going to this place to take care of these kids. And I mean, when you look at it as someone who's watched a lot of horror films, as you said, they've lost what? Three sets of caretakers already. And so that's kind of odd, right? And then this one kid is, you know, is kicked out of school and being sent home. And the introduction that we get to Mrs. Grose, she was saying something, "Mrs. Grose kind of seemed really happy, so happy that she was there." And I was thinking, "Oh, Mrs. Grose wants these kids off her hands." So I was just waiting for it to be something with the children. And then to kind of -- I was thinking like maybe they're going to psychologically torture this poor woman. I don't know. But all of the kind of setups seem to be like these children have some issues.

[Frank] Do you think there were any parts where it appeared that they were psychologically playing with her?

[Rhonda] I think so. I think, Miles, for sure.

[Frank] Well, like he starts calling her my dear.

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly.

[Frank] Like very sort of like, you know, oh, like I was going to say frat boy, but not frat boy. Like rich boarding school guy. Like, "Oh, my dear."

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And then there's that weird scene where they're talking and the candle blows out --

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] -- in the room -- in the bedroom with them and she looks to the window and the window is shut. And he just says in the darkness, "I blew it out my dear." And that's the end of the chapter. Like what? Like why? Like are you playing with it? I think they were. Yeah, Miles does seem like he is playing with her a bit. And if you think, again, of the emotional state, I cannot even imagine. I mean, not a lot is made of it, but when you look at the facts, the facts that you can lean, not all that is made of it though of having all of these people that as a young child, you put your affection towards die on you. It's got to change you. He's 10 years old. I mean, he's not a tiny baby. He's already like forming.

[Rhonda] Right. And it's got to change you. And plus, they could probably already see that she was unraveling. You know, even if they didn't know in the beginning that she suspected that the -- there were these, you know, malevolent spirits hanging around the place, they could see that something was up and maybe took advantage of that.

[Frank] I mean, there is a point where Mrs. Grose and the governess were talking about Miles being expelled and they were -- and the letter is saying that he's been deemed an injury to others. Where the -- I think, the governess says, "Well, I wonder," something like, "I wonder if --" like they felt that it was a danger of Miles contaminating the other students. And Mrs. Grose was like, "Huh?"

[Rhonda] Right [brief laughter].

[Frank] And she goes corrupting them. And then Mrs. Grose says, "Are you afraid he'll corrupt you?"

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And I was like, that was weird because I was like Mrs. Grose laughs. Because she -- you assume like well, he's such an angelic child, of course he's not. But like she puts it on the governess because she doesn't know the governess that well. Maybe you're afraid that he'll corrupt you. And because Mrs. Grose also said that when she's pressed by the governess that, "Yes, he's been naughty sometimes, but all boys should be naughty or you're no boy for me." Mrs. Grose said. Like the naughtiness is part of being a boy. And she's looking at him more amusingly, whereas the governess is making a case of seriousness against the kid, possibly, about why he got expelled. But that is an interesting thing to say to someone like you're afraid is he'll corrupt you.

[Rhonda] You.

[Frank] And you are -- remember, we are getting this only from the governess. It's in first person. It's her story. So we don't know anything other than her point of view and then what she might inadvertently reveal, you know?

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly.

[Frank] Corruption. I mean -- huh?

[Rhonda] I said, yeah, corruption. I hear you. And that stand out to me, at least that conversation.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean it just like moved on to the point where last night I was thinking like -- let me think what I was thinking, of the many different ways you can view this story. That the kids have their final breakdowns or just in Miles' case, dies, there it is.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm [brief laughter].

[Frank] There it is everybody.

[Rhonda] There is.

[Frank] Of course everyone who's absolutely read this has -- everybody does, right? When the governess forces them to see the ghosts she is seeing. When she finally -- and a lot of it is made of like her getting up the nerve, courage and debating whether she should tell the kids, "These ghosts are here. And I know you know they are." Because she also is convinced they know, but they're not mentioning it because they might -- they're under the sway of these evil ghosts.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So when Ms. Jessel appears again at the lake, Flora had done something that made everyone crazy a bit, but like they wander at night, both of the kids. Don't blame them.

[Rhonda] Yeah, that's kind of weird.

[Frank] They're lost kids [brief laughter]. She basically says, "Look, look, there she is. Ms. Jessel is there, is there, is there, you have to see her." And it's Miss -- Mrs. Grose says she doesn't see her, the ghost. She, Mrs. Grose doesn't see the ghost, which is interesting. But she is focused on Flora and Flora is like, "I don't see her. I don't see her. And I don't like you. I don't like you." And she basically has a breakdown. Mrs. Grose says later, she uttered all sorts of horrible things. You don't know what hit the Flora of the eight-year-old girl who's previously an angel had said all these horrific things, had a fever in the night. And the governess basically says, "You've got to take her out of here so I can deal with Miles and find out what's going on here." Or not find out what's going here, but save him. Get her out, but yet when she leaves -- so that's the end of Flora in the story. But what's interesting is that she's described by both Mrs. Grose and the governess as suddenly looking extraordinarily old.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Do you remember that?

[Rhonda] No, but [multiple speakers].

[Frank] You're like, no. You're like, "Can we talk about something else?"

[Rhonda] No, I do agree with you. That's an interesting point. And you know what? Because it's so dense, here's the thing.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And I think I had begun to develop in my head what I believe was actually happening. So maybe I kind of skimmed over that.

[Frank] No, no, no.

[Rhonda] So maybe that didn't fit into my narrative that I had created.

[Frank] That's totally fair. I'm only picking up things when I went back, because you do sort of do that. You want to prove your point. And that's the sort of joy and frustration of this book is that you really want to prove your point, and then it's really hard to. Because --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- the narrative is so malleable. The language is such that you can read so much into it. But what I was sort of pushing for, my appeals here are a sense of Hallel. In that she basically sets out to destroy the kids. I mean --

[Rhonda] The governess.

[Frank] Yeah. Oh, God. You know what I was going to say [brief laughter]?

[Rhonda] What?

[Frank] She gets out to destroy the kids so she can have the uncle all for herself [brief laughter].

[Rhonda] You have your narrative, I have my --

[Frank] My God.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Let it go. No, I actually don't fully believe that. But in a way, she just -- you could say she destroys Flora because it would -- on the surface of it, if you don't -- if you miss it, it looks like, "Get the girl out of here. She's -- I'm going to focus on Miles and save him. She's already lost." Like, she's -- won't see the ghost. She just won't do it. She went hysterical. She got sick over -- had a fever in the night and then Mrs. Grose said she did the terrible, terrible, terrible things because the girl didn't want to see the governess ever again. And Mrs. Grose agrees, "I'll take her." But they both -- the -- when they both described her as looking old, the little girl is looking old and all the horrible, horrible -- I mean, it's alluded to that she said some filthy things, it suddenly seems like almost like "The Exorcist" or something, that she's -- he's been taken and she's lost. So when she goes, that's the end of Flora in a way. She's like going to be in a mad house the rest of her life.

[Rhonda] And, again, kind of fitting into my narrative, I think it's because the governess basically drove her to that. Yeah.

[Frank] That's what I'm saying. She's maybe did [multiple speakers].

[Rhonda] And not the ghost, but the governess, which is, you know, in my -- and we know what happens to Miles in the end. She tries to force Miles to look at this ghost.

[Frank] Right. Which is what she did with Flora and Ms. Jessel. She tries to force -- wait a minute. No, no, no, no. No, she force -- yeah. She tries to force Miles to acknowledge that he has seen Quint, the ghost, and that Quint is evil. But she actually is holding him away from the vision, because she wants him -- maybe -- well, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I forgot.

[Rhonda] [inaudible] Well, she's trying to make him acknowledge or this vision, this ghost, and his heart just stops.

[Frank] Right. Exactly. Out of terror, I guess.

[Rhonda] I'm assuming. We don't know [brief laughter].

[Frank] And -- so, right. But it's the same -- it could be fine-tuned, but it's the same theory that she's finally forcing both the kids to acknowledge the evil in their lives, and the evil of the ghost, and the presence of the ghost, and that they know it. And they -- my possible explanation is that Flora is now completely gone and lost, and tormented and she -- Miles dies. And it might -- it's interesting to say that she -- that her mission was not so much to save them even though that was what she said she wanted to do, she ends up killing them or she ends up destroying them. Let's say --

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] -- Miles literally and Flora, you know, figuratively, I mean, or, you know, emblematically, like she's described as suddenly being so old and so horrible and she's taken off and that's the end of you hear a Flora. It's like, that's terrible when you really think about it. When I first read it, her departure didn't leave much of an impact as I was looking forward to what's going to happen with Miles. But now that I reread it, I was like, she destroys both of them.

[Rhonda] Exactly. And see I --

[Frank] She is evil. She is evil then.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So she is evil, then they --

[Rhonda] That's it, Frank. Because that's my -- yes. That's where I think the horror in the story is. And I don't know if you have read or maybe our readers have read "I Am Legend" by Matheson. I can't remember his first name.

[Frank] Richard Matheson.

[Rhonda] Yes, Richard Matheson.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But it's that same idea of who -- like the entire time, they're trying to convince you that this is where the evil is, but, you know, she's the real danger because when you think about her experience with these ghosts, everything that she believes these ghosts are trying to do, there's no real evidence. All she, you know, she goes off of these looks and these kind of, you know, this person was the -- Ms. Jessel was staring at Flora in this manner. So this must mean that she's trying to drag them to hell with her so they can suffer along with her [brief laughter]. But the ghost didn't say anything. The ghosts don't really do anything. They just kind of stand there. So it's, you know, the governess was really making up this entire narrative of them being evil and them having these malicious, you know, intent when they don't really do anything.

[Frank] Yeah. That actually -- parenthetically, that's another great movie, "Drag Me To Hell" [brief laughter].

[Rhonda] Oh, I love that movie.

[Frank] I know. And then you had to sort of slip it in there somehow. But that -- that's really interesting. Because I don't think I've -- I'm sure it's been read or talked about, but like how that she's the evil one. And that would make, which to bring us full circle to your preoccupation with her post this story, like what happens to the governess after, even more creepy in that if she was a malevolent evil force, then she still continues in her life sort of appearing to be the undiscerning viewer as a sort of sweet kind person. But --

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] -- maybe she did some other crazy things. I don't know. But like suddenly the Douglas is saying, you know, "Oh, I met this woman who was a governess to my younger sister and she was lovely, and then shared the story with me." You know, then he goes off in his life. She could have been poisoning people left and right, or who knows?

[Rhonda] I know. Exactly.

[Frank] I mean, who knows what she became. It almost seems like that classic end of horror moment where you would zoom in on her face, like sweetly smiling, and suddenly it's sort of creepy as anything, you know?

[Rhonda] Exactly. Because everything she -- everything that happens that's, I guess, you could say bad or scary is really because of the governess. And I almost see the ghost as sympathetic, you know. It's like these two, you know, thinking about you, Frank, with the romance, there's this kind of like forbidden romance and they died, and now they're kind of like stuck on this estate and, you know, they're there forever. I don't know if they're in purgatory. Just kind of like roaming around. And then this governess comes and just kind of makes up this entire, you know, scenario of them being evil when she really doesn't have any evidence to back it up and no one else even sees it, you know? So.

[Frank] I like that because it's -- I was exhausted at the beginning because I felt like all the interpretations I've always been told, and like the biggest thing that with this book is that, is she crazy? Like Victorian repressed sexuality crazy lady, or is she's really seeing ghosts? Like that divide. That, you know, bifurcated view. And I sort of like this, with has a little twist that she's -- it's not crazy per se. She's actually malevolent.

[Rhonda] It's possible. I mean, even [multiple speakers].

[Frank] I love because I didn't read about that, but like -- I'm sure it's been discussed. But I liked the idea that she was this repressed or not repressed, but smothered, sheltered girl who busts out and like it seems to her, like, you know, that kind of crazy that it's justified to oneself. Like I'm a good person, but yet she seeks to do harm because for whatever in her psyche. Because she does say towards the end too that she was glad that Flora blew out, like Flora had the breakdown. And Mrs. Grose was like, "Why?" And the governess says, "It justifies me."

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] I mean, if you went nuts, because she's clearly affected by this evil and it justifies me. So [brief laughter].

[Rhonda] Exactly [brief laughter]. Isn't that wonderful. And, again, like Mrs. Grose, I think the only thing that kind of -- that we have that could make the ghosts possibly seem real, is that Mrs. Grose is saying, "Oh, that's the description of those two people." But when you look at the descriptions, I mean, they're not very specific. They're kind of, you know, this is how a lady dresses and this is a man of this station dresses, and, you know. I don't know. So I don't even find that as like a really believable or something that makes it a fact, you know. So maybe the ghosts are real, but they might not be evil or maybe the ghosts aren't even real. I don't know.

[Frank] And Mrs. Grose, you get the sense is somewhat malleable --

[Rhonda] Exactly, yeah.

[Frank] -- in terms of what she will believe. And, again, you're getting it from the governess' point of view [brief laughter]. I don't know, there's something to that, like this -- she's a malevolent force. Oh, you know what it reminds me of?

[Rhonda] What.

[Frank] Another movie. People are so sick of our horror love, because I don't think anyone else shares it, but is one of my favorite movies of all time, "The Others."

[Rhonda] Oh yeah. Absolutely.

[Frank] With Nicole Kidman.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And Nicole Kidman is raising her two children in this big house and it turns out that all three of them are actually dead.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Oh, I gave such a huge spoiler.

[Rhonda] Yeah, this is -- that's a good connection, Frank.

[Frank] If you haven't seen it. Yeah. But the thing of it -- that is that you think she's the heroin of the family, is the heroin against the others or intruders, or malevolents, but they are actually precede -- they are the malevolent force in the lives of the actual living people. And that could be an interesting point here, is that she's sort of this malevolent force that comes into a sort of fragile environment that's already sort of at the point of breaking apart because of the kids' histories and the obscure history of the two people that were in their lives. And she's just like -- I feel like she finds her mission in evil, you know? That's why I'm committing to that.

[Rhonda] Good. I liked that. That was kind of [multiple speakers]. I like it.

[Frank] It wasn't her mission to save the kids. She wanted to destroy them. That's why she was happy.

[Rhonda] Was she [multiple speakers]? I actually sympathize with the ghost and the kids.

[Frank] Why don't you say more of that? That's so interesting.

[Rhonda] Well, yeah. Because they're accused of horrible things and they don't do anything. I feel like they are trapped on this large, lonely estate. Maybe they're looking for each other, Frank.

[Frank] I mean, you have a point. I mean, like Ms. Jessel is often referred to as being unhappy. Like she's sort of like head in hands or just not a happy ghost.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And even, Quint, she has that experience on the staircase where she -- the governess says like, "If this was a real person, we would exchange words." But he's just standing there. Like not even --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- she's not even that afraid of him. And she almost says like, "By my silence, I will -- he will go." And he does walk away. So you can definitely see it that way. Again, the genius of this, you can see it so many different ways.

[Rhonda] Yeah. And they just -- they take no definitive actions in this book, except to just show up [brief laughter].

[Frank] There was a part -- I -- just to give people an idea, which I find -- of what I like in terms of reading Henry James' language. Let me see if I can find it. Like just one sentence that when I read it, I was like, "What?" And then I suddenly saw the meaning. Like, you know, like an optical illusion. You're looking at a row of square and then you're like, "It's just a row of squares." Then suddenly your eyes shift, then you suddenly see an image in it. You know those optical illusions?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Let's see. Okay. Here. So the governess says, it -- or is narrating, "It was a straight --" I'm going to read this and tell -- you tell me if you know what it means. "It was a straight question enough but levity was not our note, and at any case, I had before the gray dawn admonished us to separate got my answer." Like, "And in any case I had before the gray dawn admonished us to separate got my answer." Do you understand that?

[Rhonda] Not exactly.

[Frank] I don't either.

[Rhonda] What do you [brief laughter] Okay. Because honestly, I don't know. I can't really.

[Frank] There's no punctuation. He has no punctuation in that part. "And in any case, I had --" and I'm purposely reading it, giving weight -- trying to give weight, equal weight to each word. "And in any case, I had before the gray dawn admonished us to separate got my answer." Then I kept -- read it again and again, and then I realized what she's saying, and this is what I said before the James does. He's -- she's saying, "And in any case," let me see. "And in any case, I had --" Oh, okay. Right. "And in any case, I had before the gray dawn admonished us to separate, got my answer." So he's really saying in any case, I had gotten my answer.

[Rhonda] Okay.

[Frank] But then he's putting in with no other punctuation before the gray dawn admonished us, meaning told us, to separate, meaning they talked and talked, and talked, and then dawn basically said, "You got to go bed, you know, the sun is coming up." And then she realized she had her answer. So in any case, I had before the gray dawn admonished us to separate, got my answer. Do you see? Or no.

[Rhonda] What's the answer [brief laughter]?

[Frank] I don't -- It doesn't matter. Actually, I don't know [brief laughter]. But what I'm saying is how he writes his sentence is so -- can be so confusing.

[Rhonda] Exactly. Yes. That I -- for sure.

[Frank] I'm sorry if I'm confusing you further by not giving you context. I guess that you need context. But I've been over and over the sentence that to me, it made sense. I'm just saying that he could have easily have written blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and in any case, I had got my answer, regardless what the answer is. But he's inserting, "And in any case, I had before the gray dawn admonished us to separate, got my answer." He's putting a detail in there that, "you technically don't need, but yet bring so much to it." Because she's talking to Mrs. Grose and things are going back and forth and it's getting late. You know what I mean? I don't know.

[Rhonda] Yeah. I hear you.

[Frank] I wanted to be exciting here, but I guess I didn't get it. It's just James and anyone listening knows that he's that way. I'm just giving an example of like, he doesn't give you -- you think you almost have like comma. And in any case, I had, before the gray dawn had monished us to separate, got my answer. That's all -- I'm shutting up.

[Rhonda] He did -- No, I'm listening. You know, I feel like that's the good thing about when you actually read the text and I listen, because you notice things like that.

[Frank] Yeah. I love that. I guess I'm just pounding people over the head with the fact that I love that. I'm --

[Rhonda] And it just make difference that -- those choices. It's intentional.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] In what -- Yeah, it's intentional and I guess, you know, what it means is left to us.

[Frank] Pretty much. I mean, again, at the beginning of that prologue part, when Douglas is about to tell the story, one of the participant -- one of the people around the fire says like, "Oh, are we going to -- we'll hear all the -- we'll get all our answers from the story." And Douglas says something like, "No, the story won't tell you the answers to anything, at least not in a vulgar obvious way."

[Rhonda] No.

[Frank] And I just remember that quote, because it's sort of -- you reminded me of what you just said, it's sort of like, "Oh, that's what we're in for. We're not really going to get any real answers." You're not going to get handed the answer. It's basically what you come up with and we've come up with the governess is evil [brief laughter].

[Rhonda] Exactly. And the fact that she just kind of moved on, well, what it appears that she moved on and went on to become a governess somewhere else, I don't know.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Like kind of [multiple speakers].

[Frank] I think that she -- yeah, she destroyed one kid and killed another, she'd might be sort of demented the rest of her life. But [brief laughter] because she's an evil person, she was fine.

[Rhonda] And you know what, Frank, that's as good prediction as any. Like you said, there could be many different outcomes that you think about with this book. And I think that's just as good as a lot of the other ones that people have thought of.

[Frank] Definitely worth reading a book that has been discussed forever, and will continue to be. Oh boy.

[Rhonda] Long after we're gone, Frank.

[Frank] What?

[Rhonda] I said, it will be continued to be discussed long after we're gone.

[Frank] Oh, wow [brief laughter]. That suddenly made me feel like mortal and insignificant, which I suppose I am.

[Rhonda] Yeah, we all are.

[Frank] Oh, that was fun.

[Rhonda] It was fun.

[Frank] Yeah, I'm exhausted by it. "Turn of the Screw" by Henry James. So that's one of the 125 books we love list for the New York Public Library.

[Rhonda] That was fun. I liked it. I love a good ghost story.

[Frank] Good. Have you heard or read any other ones lately? Or any that appeared or a ghost story that off the top of your head, you love?

[Rhonda] Off the top of my head.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Have you ever read anything by Tananarive Due? She wrote --

[Frank] No.

[Rhonda] -- "My Soul to Keep." She had a short story collection and I -- right now, the name is escaping me of the collection, but it had some really good, just kind of like old school ghost stories in there. Fun things, you know?

[Frank] Tananarive Due?

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You also could read Henry James' pal, Edith Wharton. Edith Wharton has written ghost stories too. I just read one and I can't remember the name, of course, a couple of months ago, and it was -- it's really good in a non-gory way. I mean --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- they're classic sort of ghost stories, like "Turn of the Screw". A lot of the violence is inferred. Sometimes, like I found in "Turns of the Screw" that the inferences seemed so much so vicious in a lot of ways, which surprised me. Edith Wharton, not so much. But like with Henry James, where my mind could go. And I think he -- -- it wasn't my crazy mind. I think his language is such that it invites you to really go gross, go hard on the possibilities of what he -- of what's happening. You know what I mean?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] I mean --

[Rhonda] He --

[Frank] -- what?

[Rhonda] He teases the imagination.

[Frank] Yeah, because how it's certainly been analyzed has been quite extreme in terms of what the kids were involved with or not involved with, and all that. Anyway, we're starting up a whole other conversation. I think it's time we put this to bed.

[Rhonda] So, that was great, Frank.

[Frank] Okay. Well, it was a pleasure, as always darling and I'll see you soon, and take --

[Rhonda] Nice.

[Frank] -- care, and be well in these days, and don't work yourself too hard.

[Rhonda] And you do the same [brief laughter]. You do the same.

[Frank] Thank you. I will. And thank you all for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Rhonda] See you later.

[Narrator]Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library and our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.