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Roxane Gay's latest book, Not That Bad: Dispatches from Rape Culture, is a collection of first-person essays that directly tackle rape, sexual assault and harassment. With writer and organizer, Aja Monet, Gay discusses how their stories fit into the national conversation about sexual assault, the pitfalls of the #MeToo Movement, the pressure to "perform one's trauma," and the complex work that still needs to be done towards healing and justice.

 

 

 

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

[ Music ]

>> I'm Aidan Flax-Clark, you're listening to the New York Public Library podcast. Today on the show, Roxan Gay and Aja Monet. Roxan Gay is a New York Times Opinion writer. She's the author of the best-selling books, Bad Feminists: A Collection of Essays, and Hunger: A Memoir. She's at the library to talk about one of her latest books, Not That Bad: Dispatches From Rape Culture, an anthology that she edited. Gay describes the book as, quote, a place for people to give voice to their experiences, a place for people to share how bad this all is, a place for people to identify the ways they have been marked for rape culture. Roxan Gay shared the stage with Aja Monet. Monet is a Miami-based poet and musician. A quick note. There was a bit of mic trouble during this program, so if you hear any bumping or clunking in the background, that's why. Also, a word of warning, while there's nothing particularly graphic or violent in this conversation, as you might expect from the book title, the subject matter is quite sensitive. Here's their conversation.

[ Applause ]

>> Hello, Aja.

>> Hello. How are you?

>> I'm good. How are you?

>> I'm a little nervous, but I'm good. I got this.

>> Yes, you do. Plus you've got that dress.

>> Thank you!

>> Fabulous. [Laughter] So, how would we like to do this? Oh, words, words, words. More words. Joke. Words, words, words [chuckles] [laughter].

>> All that stuff in between. Well, I'm excited to be here with you. I have been spending some time with Not That Bad and looking through this book and this moment, and it's been very -- it's been intense. I wanted to know what made you put this collection together. What was the inspiration?

>> Yes. After I published Bad Feminists, I was thinking about the essay, what we hunger for, where I wrote about sexual assault and the Hunger Games and how the Hunger Games really spoke to me as someone who has survived trauma. And I kept thinking, oh well, you know, what I went through was pretty bad but it wasn't that bad. And then I stopped myself and said, wait, why am I diminishing my own experience? And why am I trying to compare what I've been through to what other women and some men have been through? And I wanted to open up the conversation beyond just my own work. And an anthology felt like the right vehicle for doing that. And so I thought, yeah, let me pitch this to Harper Collins and see what they say. And, surprisingly, they said yes because anthologies in general don't do that well and they're a nightmare to assemble. I don't recommend it ever. But I'll happily do it again [laughs] because I'm a masochist. [Laughter] So, I was just thinking about, you know, incorporating the voices of others. And I was really curious to hear what other women had to say about this idea of not that bad and what it means to live in a world where the phrase "rape culture" exists.

>> Hmm. When I was looking through the book, I revisited -- there was a poem that kept coming up to me by Antezoki Shange [phonetic] which is With No Immediate Cause, and it's essentially a newspaper article that she refers to and she sees, you know, the way that they're referencing or talking about rape, a situation with rape. And she starts to go through her being on the train and how she's on the to rain in New York City and she's sitting around and she starts to look around and she's kind of wondering what men in the train are -- you know, if they have committed any act of violence against a woman. And she basically goes, did you hurt a woman today? I have to ask these obscene questions. The authority requires me to establish immediate cause every three minutes, every five minutes, every ten minutes, every day. And in this, she's trying to make the case that she has to constantly prove her story, that women have had to constantly prove their story. They're already seen as questionable the moment that your accuse someone of sexual assault. And so how is this played out in terms of some of the stories that you chose and the ways in which you chose them?

>> You know, I think it's interesting. In almost every single one of the essays, women are saying, no one believed me. I didn't even believe my own experience. And it's interesting that women are consistently asked and expected to testify and to bare their souls in order to be believed. Over the past couple years, we've seen a lot of men, men who know better, who have said, I didn't realize how bad it was. I didn't realize how pervasive sexual violence and sexual harassment were. And it's like, have you been paying attention? Because everywhere you look, there are women saying, this happened to me. I've been violated. I've been assaulted. I've been demeaned and degraded in the workplace or at home or walking down the street. And so, I was really drawn to a lot of the narratives that spoke to how often women have to tell their stories in order to be believed, and how many women collectively have to tell their stories for our culture to finally do something about sexual violence. And quite frankly, I don't think we've reached that number yet. And that's a shame.

>> I think what's really interesting about this book in light of the story of hunger and how it's definitely centered around your own experience -- I was talking with a friend before and we were talking about every generation takes these movements further, a step further. Our hope is that that is what would happen, and that these subtleties that we -- you know, these movements that people have made, we take it for granted. But what was interesting me about it coming from a personal story and then you choosing to do a collection of stories was that there's an assumption that when one person tells the truth, that they're -- you know, and especially with women -- you're put on a pedestal and for good or bad. And then there's the assumption that you're the exception to the rule. You're the one person that's going through this and telling the truth and so there you go. We got it. We got it out the way. But there's always organizing and things that are happening on the ground in communities that make it possible for us to be able to tell our stories, to tell our truth. And so what are -- I wanted to ask, what are maybe some things you've noticed in this current political moment, in your community, happening in the organizing, around the country but also the world that has made it possible and maybe more possible for you to put a collection like this together and for people to actually hear and pay attention?

>> I think we're just seeing a lot of women finally feeling like they can come forward. And we're seeing a lot of interesting conversations happening in communities about restorative justice in this space. And I actually don't know how I feel about that because I'm just like, let's start with actual justice before we try and -- [laughter] -- restore.

>> OK, well can I ask you what is actual justice because this is a question I had as well and I wanted to --

>> Yeah. It's a good question.

>> What does it look like to you?

>> I think that the carceral system is deeply problematic. But I think it's -- when it comes to rape, I don't think we've had a chance to decide whether or not it's problematic because not enough rapists are going to prison. They're not even going to trial. And so, I think we should get our shot at seeing some rapists sit in prison and think about what they've done for a good long while before we talk about sitting with them and trying to make peace. I'm not interested in that. But at the same time, what kind of prison system are we sending them into where there's no hope for rehabilitation and what they're really doing is becoming a better rapist? And so I struggle with that. But I do think that we need to see the justice system respond more robustly. And I think that we need to look at punitive justice in addition to restorative justice. I think that we can do both. And I think we need to start having some serious conversations about that, that also involve rehabilitation.

>> Yeah. So I wanted to ask what are the ways in which -- do you believe that discourse between victims and offenders is a process towards justice and could you see that and has that ever happened for you in your life?

>> I think it takes a very special person --

>> Mm-hmm.

>> -- to do that.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Like, I'm not -- I think it takes a remarkable person. And I'm not a remarkable person. Just not. I just can't. But I think that we should have different options. I think that the justice system does need to be more flexible and I think that if a victim wants to do that sort of transformational process with an offender, more power to them.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't know how many of us have the capacity for that. I have never done that. I don't know what I would say if I were to sit down with the men who raped me. I think it would -- in many ways it would be useful because I have questions. Like, why? I was 12. Like, what were you thinking? Like, what was that about? Why did you do it? Then why did you go back to school and lie? And at the same time, what answer could they possibly give me that would undo the pain?

>> Yep.

>> And undo the 30 years of suffering and the ways in which it has irrevocably changed me from who I was into who I am. And so I think that conversation would be useful, but I don't think that conversation could be the whole of the justice process. And I think that's why I'm looking for something that's both restorative and also involves some sort of punitive punishment. And I don't know what that punishment should look like, whether it's community service --

>> It's whooping his ass. That's what it looks like.

>> -- which might be useful. Oh. I would love that. [Laughter] I'll tell you what. If I could get all of them in a room and just have The Rock beat them to a pulp [laughter] while I watch and then I get to also join in [laughter] -- how do we account for the kinds of suffering that come out of sexual violence in particular? And the ways in which those crimes tend to stay forever? You get better, absolutely. But it changes you. And is there any kind of justice that can account for that? I do not know.

>> Well, this is important because we've been struggling with -- in organizing spaces, I know for sure we have been struggling with how do we hold our brothers accountable? And what -- yeah, exactly what you're saying. I mean, at the very least we're trying. We're making an effort to see what is possible when we create an alternative. And if it fails, it fails. But what I have witnessed in that process of trying is that because there is no accountability in the system, that the brothers are also, have also been abused. And there has been no justice for them. And so, there is this resentment and this anger that they carry about the way that they have to be so strong and show how tough they are and how well together and composed they are in spite of all that has happened to them. That's a consistent story. And it does suck, hurt people hurting people. That shouldn't be the justification for hurting someone, but there is a level of, like, I can't just, like I'm not -- I can't just throw my, like, I just can't throw somebody away. I mean, I can but I can't. So that's the constant struggle I find, at least a lot of women of color in community spaces where they want to just throw people away and every man is a representation for all the men they want to throw away. So what are ways that you believe this book can help in that conversation, in that process?

>> I think one of the best things this book does is show just the range of experiences that people deal with when it comes to sexual violence and sexual harassment. And I also think it shows the repercussions, because a lot of times people think, oh you know, it's not that bad. You'll be fine. And I don't think they realize how it can change you, how it can make you feel less than human, how it can make you feel like you have no right to say no and how when you do say no it's ignored. And so, so many of the writers in this anthology make themselves so vulnerable and show just how long-reaching and long-lasting the effects of sexual violence are. And it can help. In fact, I did an event on Thursday somewhere.

[ Laughter ]

I don't even know. I look at my website to find out where I am. [Laughter] And a young man came up to me afterward. And actually, one of the most beautiful men I've ever seen in my life. And he said, thank you for Not That Bad because I've hurt women in the past and this book is helping me to try and do better. And it was really an incredible moment because it was so unexpected and looking at him, I would not have pegged him for the kind of guy who would treat people badly. But here he was saying that he recognizes how he's done wrong and that the essays were helping him to realize that and realize that there's a better way to treat women. And I really hope more men do pick up the book and recognize that this is not just for women -- it's for everyone regardless of your gender -- and that there's a lot to learn. And I just want more people to do that. I know that it's just a book. And I don't belabor under the impression that books are going to save everything and save everyone. I know we love to tell ourselves that as book people, but [light laughter] that's not true. But -- [laughter] it just isn't. But I do think that books can contribute to goodness and to more empathy. And I think if this book does one thing, it is to expand empathy.

>> For sure. People need to read more. That's one thing.

>> They do. They do. Especially people that are organizing in communities. They need to read more. [Applause]

>> So, what I wanted to ask you is about how are -- what are the ways that we can shift this conversation about sensitivity to action and why we're so sensitive, because I feel a big part of this moment is that we haven't addressed the nuances and the many layers and the many acts of violence against women's bodies. And so, for sure, we're sensitive. Like, what else would women be if for so many years you've felt silenced, you've felt ostracized from conversations, and you've been abused? What other ways is there for us to fight back other than to speak and tell the truth? At what point does it become we take up arms?

>> Oh, we're there. [Laughter] We're definitely at that point.

>> You know, at the very least, if we're sensitive, then you should be glad we're just sensitive at this point.

>> Yeah, because wait until we're angry.

>> Yes [laughing].

>> You know, I actually don't think we even need to engage in conversations where men say, oh you're being too sensitive because oftentimes the men saying that are wealthy. And I'm just like, really? With your $40 million, you want to talk to me about being sensitive, when you are using this platform to cry about your own shit? No. That's not how it works.

[ Applause ]

No. And the people who also say people are sensitive never ever, like you said, point the camera or the introspection at themselves. It's always critiquing and punching down. And I just don't even want to engage with them. But I do think that they need to watch out because at some point we are going to be tired of being called sensitive. And we are going to get back. And we're going to stop sleeping with y'all. And [laughter] I don't know what to tell you because women are great. We'll be fine without you. [Laughing]

[ Laughter & Applause ]

We will be just fine. And as long as toy makers continue doing what they do [laughter], we can replace pretty much everything about you. [Laughter] And so, I think we do need to think about what is the revolution going to look like? But I do think women need to collectively stop dealing with men for a while because they never learn. We keep giving them chances and saying, oh I can't resist them and blah-blah-blah. Yeah, I get it. The D is good. But --

[ Laughter ]

Yeah, I don't know about them.

>> -- at some point, it's not that good. And the problem is that not enough women are willing to band together and demonstrate the necessary solidarity to push back. And by that, I mean 53% of white women voted for Donald Trump. [Applause] And so, clearly, as women we're not all on the same page. Black women are all on the same page. We don't agree with each other on everything but we know who to vote for [laughter], and as we organize, we know who to organize against and who to organize for. And I think that as women across race and ethnicity, we need to start having more collectivity so that men recognize that we're serious about this, and that it's not just about black women carrying your water. [Applause]

>> I think a big part of what I found really interesting in some of the difficult conversations I have with specifically men of color is that I often have to use race to talk about gender. That's constantly the -- that's the only way, you know, you can sometimes get black men to understand the gravity of gender issues. And so when I hear you speaking, I'm also thinking of Gwendolyn Brooks who says, you know, our issue with men is not the same as white women's issue with men. They weren't sitting there saying, you're a woman slave, you can't carry cotton, you can't pick the cotton, you can't, you know, get whooped, you can't --. So she makes the distinction to say that we were dehumanized together and so our humanity is strong together. We need to define what our humanity is together and if being human in the western way of talking about it is even what we want. Right? So what is our imagination for a society that is healed? Like, I want to know what is the first step to healing for you? And then what does that last step look like, if you have ever even imagined?

>> I haven't because we're so far from the first step that I don't dare dream of what the last step would look like. But you know, the first step is solidarity and people believing. Like, you know, the thing you said about having to explain to black men gender issues -- until we can get past that conversation --

>> Yep.

>> -- we have so much work to do. I can't tell you the number of times I try to have conversations with black men where they say, but it's worse for me because I'm a black man. And I'm like, I understand that you are dealing with some very unique challenges, especially given the justice system that is predisposed to see you as a criminal and police officers who see you as targets. But black women are equally targets of the prison system and police who think that our bodies don't matter. And until we can even, just amongst ourselves, agree that we're all dealing with struggles, even though those struggles may be different, we just have so far. We have so far to go. And I just wish that we would also get to a place where we wouldn't try to one-up each other in terms of suffering with the oppression Olympics. Who cares? Like, we all have things that we're dealing with and let's respect that and recognize that everybody suffers in some form or fashion. And you don't need to prove that you have it worse to be heard and to be seen.

>> Well also, solidarity is a really interesting word because oftentimes, you know, in these race/gender/whatever conversations, it's like, we know that we can't somehow get white people to all understand the issues that black people are dealing with based off of just sheer compassion or respectability politics or all those other things you think would be enough. And what I find often happening is that we will, you know, run ourselves rugged trying to be like, look at me, look at me, I'm human, accept me! And at this point, I'm like, forget that. Y'all need to go work with each other on what it means to be human. You all need to go deal with your own shit about you feeling insecure, about you not knowing who you are and what your history is and how you got here. And we need to spend some time loving and celebrating one another because that's never been possible because we're often interrupted in the process of doing that. Anytime a large group of people come together that are of color, we're a threat. [Chuckles] And so, I think a part of my interest is in what you said about solidarity. How do we create more spaces for us to practice solidarity? What does that look like? I see incredible brothers doing incredible work. What could they be doing more of that they are not doing enough of?

>> I think they could be seeing black women as people and not merely as helpmates and, you know, there to support them. I think that black women in particular are often expected to be incredibly strong and all-loving. And we're supposed to love the people in our lives unconditionally which is not a problem, but without self-regard, without acknowledging that we might have needs, that we might need that kind of love and support in return. And so, I would love to see within the black community across the gender spectrum, just more of that acknowledge that we need people to support us as much as we support them. And I also would love to see people -- men in particular -- stop degrading and deriding black women when we have standards. One of the favorite things I love to see is when some man on Twitter says, oh, you always want a brother to have a job.

[ Laughter ]

Yeah. Yes, I do.

[ Laughter ]

Because I have one. [Laughter & applause] And it's just like -- [stammering in disbelief] -- we're still having these sort of basic, in the most basic sense of the word basic, conversations where men are like, why do I have to prove myself? Because I'm a queen. That's why you have to prove yourself. [Applause] And so, I just wish we would have more of men willing to do better because black women show up and show out all the time and are always doing our damn best. And we get so little in return from our own community. It's -- again, it's expected. And you even saw this in the narrative after the 2016 election where people were like, look what black women did. And we saw it in Alabama after Doug Jones was elected and it was black women who did that. And people were like, thank God for black women. Like, where where you on Wednesday?

[ Laughter ]

Because you're only thankful for us when we come through and do what you expect us to do. And you -- and it seems like that's all we're ever expected to do is provide salvation in general for white people but also for black men. And we are not providing nearly enough salvation for ourselves. Look at the black maternity rate in this country where even Serena Williams who has the access to the best of everything had to advocate for herself and nearly died giving birth. It's just frustrating.

>> Something that is very -- I think it was an interesting theme in definitely all the books but especially Hunger and Not That Bad, and in my work I didn't realize this, oftentimes the body shows up in really weird ways. It's something that I didn't -- I guess I just was never conscious of until someone had mentioned it to me. And the way that body parts show up. And I found that in particular women are often made to feel unsure of our bodies, regardless of whether or not we're overweight, we're too thin, we're not this, we're this, we [inaudible], got tattoos. It's always something to critique one's body. The moment you wake up, you're in a position in the world where constantly commercials, advertisements, songs, music, social media -- there's awareness of your body in a way that I don't think men have to think about. And so, I looked -- in looking back and thinking about this conversation, I also looked at the Brock Turner case that just now is being revisited. And I was looking back at the woman's -- Emily Doe's -- letter, that 7,000-word letter or I forget how many words. But she said, I stood there examining my body beneath the stream of water and decided, I don't want my body anymore. I was terrified of it. I didn't know what had been in it, if it had been contaminated, who had touched it, she said. I wanted to take off my body like a jacket and leave it at the hospital with everything else. And it reminded me of moments in the book where women constantly refer to their bodies and they constantly talk about how they feel broken or unsure of their bodies after dealing with rape, and even before, if they ever have to deal with sexual assault. And I wanted to know, why do you think that is? I mean, we know why, but I think it comes up a lot. In what ways could we address some of these issues that women have with their bodies?

>> Well, to live in a woman's body in this world is to live in a body that becomes public property.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> No matter who you are, how old you are, what you look like, people have something to say about your body.

>> Yes.

>> And the dominant narrative for women is that you're too fat. It doesn't matter what size you are. Like, if you weigh ten pounds, girl, you could be nine. [Laughter] And we're always told to fix things. Like, I was watching -- I watch a lot of nonsense. And -- [laughter] -- with a lot of nonsense come a lot of drug commercials. And there was a commercial where they said, do you ever burst into laughter unexpectedly? Do you ever cry unexpectedly? And it was actually for a mental disorder. But the way the commercial was framed was like, do I live?

[ Laughter ]

And sure, I'll take a pill for that.

[ Laughter ]

Jennifer Aniston is selling eyedrops for dry eyes. And I'm like, girl, is it that rough?

[ Laughter ]

Those Friends residual checks aren't, like --? But it turns out she was paid the most any person has ever been paid for a drug commercial to be in those commercials. And so, there's always something wrong and there is always a capitalist interest in addressing that problem. And we have to really look at that, that it's really capitalism that is deeply invested in women's bodies and telling us that our bodies are imperfect. And in Not That Bad, there is this common theme of women wanting to create some sort of separation from their body and some distance because we live in our body, we move through the world in our body, and we'd like to believe that we're safe in our body. And then you're sexually assaulted and you're in your body and it has been breached and there's nothing you can do because you still have to live in that body the next day. And that's why so many women who have dealt with sexual assault turn to food or drugs or cutting or any kind of self-abuse to try and reconcile the weakness of the body and the way in which it has been violated. And so, you're going to continue seeing that because there's no escaping the body and when the body has been breached, you have to live with that. And it's a hell of a thing to live with and to make peace with. And it's just -- it's a hell of a thing.

>> That makes me think of -- so I don't even know if there's a question in this. But I've had a -- I've never actually written about my relationship to sexual abuse, which I was like, man, I can't cry! But it makes me emotional just being here in front of people talking about it. So I was raped. It's hard to say that out loud. And in trying to even address it or think about it, I had my own healing process or I was trying -- I'm still going through my own healing process. I realize it affects me in my relationships. It affects me in the way I think about people, the way I think about women and men. Just, there's so many stories in this book that were triggering or brought up things for me that resonated and horrified me. But in that, I also had a situation where someone found out. I was not vocal about this, but somehow someone found out about this story. And a sister sends me a message and she says, you know, this is horrible. This is an injustice. Like, we can't let this person go, you know, get away with this. And it was awesome to have this, like, feeling of solidarity, but I was like, whoa! Hold up! Where's this coming from? You know, like, she was more ready to fight for me than I was, you know, in that moment. And that was -- that's something that I don't know if we talk about in this moment of, like, tell your truth, speak, go out there, you know, me too! And I felt like there was a pressure to create -- she even said it -- a campaign against this person and almost an accusation of me for not doing that, for not participating in this, you know, in this moment, so to speak, to have to speak down on this person. And it really horrified me even more, that now that someone who I didn't even want to know my story knows my story and then is judging me for me not telling my story the way she thinks I should tell my story. So I thought about that in relation to this because I think there is the moment of shame from ourselves, but there's also like a shaming from other women that I think goes untouched, or like not talked about. And so, what do you think is the responsibility, I think, of our sisters in solidarity, when we're struggling through these moments?

>> Yeah. That's a good question. You know, I don't think there's any wrong way for a woman to deal with sexual assault. And it's really frustrating that so many people and so many women in particular do get on that bandwagon of you have to do something, you have to say something. You don't know my life. Not everybody can. It's actually a privilege to be able to come forward and have the resources emotionally, physically, and financially to pursue justice for yourself in the terms of sexual assault. I think any choice that a woman or a survivor of any gender makes in terms of how they deal with their assault and what they say is the right choice. I genuinely do because it's so personal. You know, and it's hard to say that because at the same time you think, if we say something, then perhaps this person will not do this to another woman.

>> Yeah.

>> The one thing that haunts me about not coming forward is not knowing what those five guys did after, and not knowing if they raped other women. And I'm pretty sure they did. They were just those kinds of guys. And if I had said something, could I have prevented another woman from going through what I went through? So it's difficult. And that's a difficult space to navigate. But all the time women are expected to do things for the greater good instead of the greater good of themselves. And if not coming forward, if not pursuing a campaign, if not naming names is what you need to get to a better place, then I think we have to support that. I think we really do because it's the rapist's job not to rape again, not our job to keep from doing it again. And --

[ Applause ]

-- that's actually where I'm more interested in focusing the conversation about justice. Like, no, put your dick in your pants and stop being a rapist. And stop. [Laughing] And if that worked, I mean, the world would be a better place. But it doesn't. But no. I really believe that there is too much pressure on women. And I think we've really seen it now in the past six months with Me Too where people are like, come forward, tell your story. Why? For public edification? You don't already know how bad sexual violence is? That means you haven't been paying attention. And you know, for who? So many people have said, I want more details. We saw this in particular, especially with like Juno Diaz. People were like, what else? Where are the other details? And with Harvey Weinstein, who else did he assault? And when is Uma going to come forward? Like, people don't even really care that women have been hurt. They want the prurient details. And they want to pass the story around like a party favor. And let's look at that, and why people want to trade in women's sorrow.

>> Mmm. Whew! That's real. [Laughing] Part of why I want to address that is because I think, you know, every chance I have, I have to get a chance to tear down capitalism a little. So fuck capitalism. I'm going to do that, just to say it. But the reason why I say that is because right now we're in a moment of, you know, content. Content, content, content. The more content, the more juicy, the more vulgar, the more drama, the more da-da-da-da-da. It's just so much about so much of our young people are seeing stories of pain and suffering and trauma. And you know, I was at an event for youth and they were all poems. And they were being encouraged, even you know rehearsed, in getting them to tell the most gruesome, the most horrible, the most, you know, horrifying story. And there is that. That is a part of the human experience. However, there is also a lack of recognizing the fact that humans are multi-faceted, and we don't want to live in a moment where you're just interested in the story that's going to get you the most clicks. You're just interested in the thing that's going to make this person look horrible and tear this person down. So I'm it's interesting what are the stories that give you hope, that you look to, in also in awe and in celebration of human endurance, survival, capacity to love one another, because I've seen some incredible women. And I think that's kind of what I was getting at is how do women show up in solidarity? I've seen incredible strength in how we're coming together and the ways that we're loving one another, the ways that we're radically showing up for each other. What are some ways that that has happened for you? What are some stories?

>> I don't know. You know, one of the things that drives me crazy -- and I talk about this a lot -- is that marginalized people in particular are expected to perform their trauma for attention and to sell articles and books and so on. And so any time I see a marginalize person -- and I'm hesitant to even use that word -- but create art that isn't grounded in suffering, even though there's nothing wrong with that, I feel very encouraged. And so, Issa Ray's Insecure, for example, which I think is marvelous, intelligent, joyful storytelling where it's run by a black woman and written and shaped by a black woman. And it's not predicated on a black woman suffering. That is the kind of storytelling that I am increasingly drawn to because I don't want to see young black writers in particular feeling like I have to sell my soul to get my foot in the door. And unfortunately, that's oftentimes what the publishing machine tells them. And if you're going to go that route, there's nothing wrong with that. But you want to make sure that you have boundaries for yourself, which is what I have done with myself and the kinds of things. People often say, oh I feel like I know you, I want to be your best friend. And I'm like, hmm [chuckles], no you don't. [Laughter] And I already have a best friend. [Laughter] And we're not friends, at all. We're strangers. And you've read a few essays. And I actually am a really private person and I have very firm boundaries. And so, if you know something about me, I have chosen for you to know that thing about me. And there's far more that you don't know about me. And so, it's just trying to find that balance and just looking for the joy. And anytime I also see especially black women writing about an area of expertise, something that they're just baller in -- Tressie McMillan Cottom I think is doing some of the most interesting work. And she's an expert on many things, but lower education and for-profit universities. And I just love seeing her out there and being an expert on this. And advocating for black women in a different way than we typically see people in the public space advocating for black women. So that's another artist person that I think is doing really great work in that space.

>> Awesome. So before I think we get to questions that people have, the last thing I guess I want to ask is a piggyback off of some of the other questions I asked, but it was about, do you feel like there's real-life, actual changes and shifts in how this country views and treats women, and particularly black women, or is it a market right now to tell that story? That they are because, you know, Roxan Gay, her book is, you know, traveling the world and she's doing rely well. And because so-and-so -- like, they like to lift up, like, individuals as if that's somehow changing or transforming the actual system. And we know that this system is fucked up and the system has problems. So what are things that you have seen or haven't seen that is actually shifting the culture of violence against women?

>> I don't think we're there yet. I think we would like to believe we're there. And I think there are a lot of people patting themselves on the back for acknowledging that women are human beings. But that was, like, Humanity 101 and you should have mastered that 2,000 years ago [laughter]. So I'm not really impressed when you realize, oh, I have a daughter now. Amazing! [Laughter] I guess I'm going to stop treating women like shit. Hmm. We have so far to go. We're still having basic conversations. We're still talking about backlash and worrying about backlash when we have barely scratched the surface of women suffering. And so, we're not there. And we're especially not there for black women because, as you said, we elevate one to the detriment of everyone else. Not a week goes by when a black woman doesn't email me and say, my agent tried to sell my book but the editor said, we already have a Roxan Gay. And I hate that people tell me this. I'm like, keep it to yourself [laughing].

[ Laughter ]

Because it makes me feel horrible because I'm never trying to, like, block the entrance to anything, and that's how the world is. We have an Oprah so we don't need someone else in that space. And we still pick the individuals. And we're not interested in collective rising. And I'm very interested in collective rising. And so, as long as we're still cherrypicking the best among us, supposedly, we have a long, long way to go. We're not even having the right conversations yet. And I know that's not optimistic and hopeful, but that's another problem. People always expect black people to bring hope and encouragement and to make people feel better about the world. But look at what's going on in the world. Like, look what happened at the G7 with Trump. Look what's going on in Singapore. He shreds everything. Like, as long as, like, this is the state of current events, we just -- it's bad. It's bad. And also, Arianna Grande and Pete Davidson --

[ Laughter ]

>> What, what's going on?

>> They're engaged.

>> I don't know. What happened?

>> They're engaged and they've been dating for four weeks.

>> Oh god. [Laughter]

>> So like, I'm sorry. The world is a mess.

[ Laughter ]

And I think we just need to sit with that and be uncomfortable instead of thinking like everything is OK because everything is not OK. That girl is going through something and -- [laughter] -- I guess he is too? I'm happy for them. But really?

[ Laughter ]

I just had to get it off my chest. When I saw the news story -- I've been sitting with that for an hour and a half. It's a lot.

>> [Laughing] Well, this is lovely. I wanted to end --

[ Laughter ]

Someone that I also try to lift up a lot is June Jordan and one of the things that she wrote in Poem About My Rights was, I'm the history of rape. I am the history of rejection of who I am. I'm the history of the terrorized incarceration of myself. I'm the history of battery, assault, and limitless armies against whatever I want to do with my mind and my body and my soul. And whether it's about walking out at night or whether it's about the love that I feel or whether it's about the sanctity of my vagina or whether it's about the sanctity of my national boundaries or the sanctity of my -- it keeps going. I'm going to end there. But she keeps talking about -- it's called A Poem About My Rights. And one of the -- a line that she has in one of her essays is, sometimes I am the terrorist. I must disarm. And I think that it's, you know, really hard for us to also talk about the ways that women are complicit in not just the oppression of themselves but of other women. And there have been women in my life who have, you know, who have done harm on women's bodies in many ways beyond sexual violence, abuse, physical abuse, verbal abuse. All these things show up. And so I am interested in this. As you said, in the conversation around solidarity, we need radical solidarity for one another to truly be free. So I'm really honored to be in this conversation with you. I hope that this book and our books are used as teaching tools and organizing methods because our work is not going to actually change anything if it's not being used actively in organizing spaces, whether it be book clubs, whether it be reading conversations with your boys. You know, my mother used to read books to us before we went to bed. I think all these things are really important, that we use these moments of radical truth telling to change the condition of what's happening. So not just say, oh that's a great book. I read it, I cried, and I went through the feelings of someone else. But to actually shift into action, to change something about the people around you so that we don't have to keep writing these books. So I want to open it up for a conversation with the audience, if there are questions. I believe there are.

>> Yes.

>> Hello. Oops. Sorry. My name's Marvin. I'm in a queer book club. It's all gay men, so not that queer. But --

[ Laughter ]

One of the things is I recommended your book Hunger for us to read. I already had read it and when they asked, well what is it about? And I, you know, I shared. A lot of them gave pushback and they're like, oh, we don't want to read about rape. Like -- and the thing that I'm wondering or what I'm really wondering is, like, how do we engage folks that may feel like they are not the perpetrator of rape and women's suffering in this conversation?

>> Well, you know, I think as Aja said earlier men need to start holding men accountable. And that's all men. And oftentimes, when people say, I don't want to hear about rape, what they're saying is, I don't want to be bothered with the reality of the world. And what a nice and privileged position that must be. And I am actually -- and setting aside that it's my book [laughing] -- I find that really painful from gay men who deal with all manner of discrimination and suffering and are unwilling to extend their empathy to women. What's that about? And it just shows how far we have to go. And so when people say things like that, I would press a little further and just say, why? Now, it could be I'm feeling exhaustion, which again is a privilege but it's one I also feel at times. Like, I can't take in anymore suffering today. But if it's just I don't want to be made uncomfortable or I don't think this is connected to me, that's not the case because everybody can be sexually assaulted, regardless of gender or sexuality. And I think more people need to realize that, that this is a conversation we need to have as a society collectively and that no one is immune from it.

>> Yeah. I would suggest reading the Poem About My Rights by June Jordan with everyone because the poem is actually her starting from the personal but she makes a case about how it's a reflection of the political landscape of how we treat land and how men treat land, and that the same thing that we do to women, we do to land. And so, she makes this critique of not just this -- she always makes the critique that the personal is political. And so if you're going to talk about all these other issues that affect queer men or that you're going to talk about all these other issues that affect, you know, poverty or -- all these things are related to the fact that patriarchy is violent and treats everything around it as it does women's bodies. And so I think there's a space for us -- and men's bodies, but as it treats the body there's a fear of its own body. And so I think there's room to have a conversation about not just these personal stories but how the personal affects our political landscape. I mean, look at Trump. The way he talks about women says a lot about how he feels about the world.

>> Hi. First off, thank you so much for, I mean, using your voices for power. It's really hard, in a lot of ways. I'm 19. Like many other 19-year-olds, I'm in college. I go to a private liberal arts institution and I know men, women, people all along the gender spectrum who have been assaulted and haven't been able to come forward because of fear of ridicule or not being believed or have come forward and have not gotten justice because the institution protects the assailant just as much if not more than the actual person who's been assaulted. And in an institution such as academia where rape culture is so normalized and just absolutely never taken care of properly, how do we not start but continue the conversation? How, as someone on campus, who is living in a college right now, how do I go about any of it [laughing], I guess?

>> Well, you're taking on quite a lot [laughter]. That's a good question, though. And any time I go to a college campus, this comes up. And there are no easy answers. I think one of the key things is that we have to have students on campuses start to demand that non-university police deal with sexual assault because in most instances --

[ Applause ]

-- universities ask campus police and campus administrators to litigate sexual assault, and they're always going to protect the institution first. They're always going to protect their endowment first. It's never going to change. It does not matter. And so, one of the main things students can do is advocate for going beyond the university system for justice. You know, call the campus police if you must, but call the local police outside of the campus police. And frankly, especially in small towns where the college or university is the main thing, it's really hard to even get justice that way, but it's a start. Another thing you can do is -- [heavy exhale] -- get your faculty on board and try and motivate the faculty -- and that's a really hard thing to do -- to advocate for students because you guys are 19 and 20 and 21 and you have a lot of righteous energy and you do a lot of really good organizing, but oftentimes you might need advocacy and someone who has more power within the institution to stand up for students. And tenured faculty should be your biggest allies. And in general tenured faculties don't do anything.

>> Yes.

>> It's a nightmare. [Laughter]

>> That is true.

>> It is true [laughing]. I see it every day and I just think, ha. That's a nice gig.

[ Laughter ]

But those are the kinds of people who have the power to advocate for you and look out for students who have dealt with sexual assault and just keeping the conversation going. You're a student. You're paying tuition dollars. There's nothing they're going to do to you because they can't exist without you. And so make all the noise you want. It's going to be the one time in your life where you can make all kinds of noise and protest and actually be heard because you are -- again, it's all about capitalism, because your dollars matter. And so use those dollars.

>> Yeah. Thank you.

[ Applause ]

>> So, greetings to all. My name is Laura. And my question, I guess, would be so I hang out in predominantly mostly black spaces. And when coming up with these issues about rape and mentioning men such as Bill Cosby or R. Kelly or Chris Brown and sexual abuse and things, a lot of black men and, disgustingly, a lot of black women would use the counterargument, well, there's the Harvey Weinstein, the Hugh Hefner, the Woody Allens, and all that other kinds of things. And my question is, why do you think that black people are so defensive and pacifying of these men who are committing these things?

>> Survival. I think that it ties into respectability politics, that we have to keep our -- and this has been to the downfall of black communities everywhere -- that we have to keep our shit in house and let's not talk about it and let's not put our business out in the street because we have to look out for each other. But R. Kelly is not looking out for us. And Chris Brown is not looking out for us. And Bill Cosby, for damn sure --

>> Not your dad. [Laughing]

>> -- exactly -- is not looking out for us. These are men who have done everything in their power to harm our communities, and harm black women in particular. And the reason why, you know, we seem to not want to do anything about it is because this is how little black women are valued. If it were black men that were being assaulted by these figures, oh it would be a very different conversation. And so I think a lot of it is survival and this idea of insularity. And two wrongs don't make a right, so who cares what the fuck Woody Allen did? He's a rapist. We know this. I know this. And so, that's well and good, but we can talk about them AND Bill Cosby AND Chris Brown and any other black man who does wrong, or man of color.

>> Hi. I'm Ellen. I'm a reporter and I occasionally write about sexual violence and sexual assault. So, what do you both wish the media did differently or better when writing about these kinds of topics?

>> I wish the media would use better language. I wrote an essay many years ago called The Careless Language of Sexual Violence where I was deeply concerned with how the media writes about it. And I know that sometimes journalists do have to use certain kinds of language because the crime -- you know, a rapist hasn't been convicted and so on and so forth. But sometimes they could just be plainer and less obfuscating about what's actually going on and what's being talked about. I think the plainer we are with our language when discussing sexual violence, the more progress we're going to make because as long as we couch it in these sort of euphemistic phrases, the easier it is to pretend that everything is OK. And I also think that we need to stop focusing only on the victim and to the victim has been through, and I think we need to focus more on the people who have been accused of these crimes and, you know, let's explore what they have going on and how they're still able to live their lives. You know, Harvey Weinstein walked into a courthouse with his bail check. And that's appalling. And I would love to see more people talking about that because I think it's really important to look at how uneven the justice system is and how coddled even a rapist like Harvey Weinstein is, that he got to select the time he was going to turn himself in. He got to bring his check and didn't spend a moment in jail. And so, if journalists would focus more on that, I think we would make a lot more progress.

>> Thank you.

[ Applause ]

>> Hi. So, about a year ago, I dealt with a case of workplace sexual harassment which is not rape or sexual assault, but --

>> See, you're already diminishing your own story.

>> [Laughs] Well, I guess that's where I'm kind of going because one of the hardest parts to me -- and I'm no longer in this situation, thankfully -- but was kind of reconciling the people in my life who were, I've fortunately had to kind of validate my experience, and then the people who weren't able to do that, and then my own Not That Bad voice. And so, how do you reconcile the Not That Bad, I guess is my question?

>> It's difficult. And I think you have to be kind and patient with yourself because, you know, there are so many people who are going to say, oh, it was just sexual harassment, walk it off. And you know, it is different from rape, but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt you and create actual harm, and it's important to give yourself the space to acknowledge the harm. And encourage the people in your life to recognize the harm that was caused. Not everyone is going to get it, and that's unfortunate. I wish that everyone would understand our stories when we share them. But you also have to find a way to be at peace with knowing not everyone is going to get it. But I think also people show you who they are and that gives you useful information for what kind of relationship you might want with them in the future, whether it's holding them at a distance or knowing you'll be able to confide in them if they were able to really hear your story and give you the support and empathy that you needed. But it's really challenging. And I think sexual harassment is, and we don't talk enough about it, that it is a problem and that it is painful and that we should be able to create space in our culture for people to be able to share these stories and say they've been hurt without people saying, oh but it wasn't that bad. Like, it was bad enough. And that's all that matters. And I would love to see you just get to a place where you recognize it was bad enough. You don't need to qualify it. You don't need to say it wasn't this or that or the other. Just focus on what it actually was.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you.

[ Applause ]

>> To Aja Monet and Roxan Gay, our gratitude.

>> Thank you.

>> Thank you very much.

[ Crowd Cheering ]

>> That was Roxan Gay and Aja Monet. Roxan Gay's new book, which she edited, is Not That Bad: Dispatches From Rape Culture. She also simultaneously published a collection of short stories which is called "IT." You can get them at your local NYPL branch and you can find many of Roxan Gay's books on our app, SimplyE. Aja Monet's most recent book, a collection of poems, is My Mother Was a Freedom Fighter, which you can also find at NYPL. The New York Public Library podcast is produced by Schuyler Swenson with editorial support from Richert Schnorr and myself.

 

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