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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In! This week Frank and Crystal were transported to 1970s Mexico City for a noir-esque adventure. Let's listen in, shall we? *hits the play button*

Velvet Was the Night by Silvia Moreno-Garcia

In 1970s Mexico City, Maite, a secretary with a penchant for romance novels, searches for her missing neighbor, Leonora, a beautiful art student, which leads her to an eccentric gangster who longs to escape his own life, and together, they set out to discover the dangerous truth. (Publisher summary)

Were you able to guess Crystal's ASMR object this week? (Hint: it's used to wrap all types of presents!)

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello and welcome to the Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Crystal] And I am Crystal.

[Frank] Here we are. Take it away.

[Crystal] Well, we read Velvet Was the Night, and I actually really enjoyed it. How did you feel about it?

[Frank] Wow, when I said take it away, you really took that to mean take it away, which is good.

[Crystal] Oh, we were supposed to do banter before? I keep forgetting. Okay, what can we banter about?

[Frank] [inaudible] come up with banter.

[Crystal] We talked about our booster shots. We've talked about the holiday party. What else to banter about?

[Frank] Well, I know what I'm excited about, and I probably mentioned this before. Did I mention this before? Because memory doesn't happen. West Side Story, [inaudible] the movie.

[Crystal] Oh, you watched it and enjoyed it?

[Frank] It's not open. Well, by the time this airs, it will have opened. The Steven Spielberg West Side Story remake of the famous 1961 West Side Story ringing bells? I know Sound of Music is where you begin and end with musicals, but I really think you should see this one and see if it could add to your canon.

[Crystal] My canon of one, yes.

[Frank] Canon of one. It's also Stephen Sondheim's first big job. He just died --

[Crystal] Okay, yes.

[Frank] -- and he wrote the lyrics. Leonard Bernstein wrote the music, which is incredible, and this one is supposed to be pretty amazing.

[Crystal] Really? Okay.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] You know, I was kind of remarking about this with a friend, where I don't think I actually am really familiar with the West Side Story at all. Like I feel like with certain things, it kind of -- I don't know -- like infiltrates our culture enough that I would pick up the story somewhere, but I have no idea. Like is this kind of a Romeo and Juliet type story?

[Frank] Yeah, totally.

[Crystal] Okay, tragic.

[Frank] And you've probably heard some of the songs. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Crystal] Oh, it is? Oh.

[Frank] Not exactly following the Romeo and Juliet line, but not --

[Crystal] It's not a good sign for me to watch it if it ends tragically.

[Frank] Well, it actually relates to -- because I'm always forcing relationships -- to the book we read in that Rita Moreno, who won the Academy Award in 1961 for her portrayal of Anita is also in this new version, and the book we read is by Moreno-Garcia, and it's also about Latino characters, Latinx characters. And the biggest change, of course, in the '61 version, a lot of the Sharks, which is the Puerto-Rican gang in the movie, are played by white actors with dark makeup on.

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] And even like sort of hilariously, for the white gang, the Jets, they bleach some of the guys' hair like bright blond like to make them look whiter. And so this movie sort of rectifies that, where all of the Sharks are played by Latin characters -- Latin actors. So even like the Ariana Debose, who plays Anita, is an Afro-Latina, so she's dark-skinned. So I don't know, she's also great. She was in The Prom, which I loved. She has a beautiful voice.

[Crystal] That's a musical, The Prom?

[Frank] The Prom, yeah --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] -- about two girls who want to go to the prom together and then the Broadway through various machinations, Broadway actors come in, and they help them get to the prom together against the school board who are against lesbianism. But you must know some of the songs from West Side Story.

[Crystal] If you sing them, it may remind me.

[Frank] Well, you probably don't know this one. It's the hardest to sing. [ Singing ] That's actually one of the most beautiful parts of the movie where Tony and Maria, the leads, sort of pledge themselves to each other, which is essentially their marriage ceremony. But you probably know -- [ Singing ]

[Crystal] I've never heard of any of these songs before.

[Frank] Maria? [ Singing ]

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] No? All right.

[Crystal] Well, I mean, Sound of Music Maria song, yes, but not this.

[Frank] [inaudible] the book. Anyway, I am going to go for the first time in forever to the --

[Crystal] You're going to go to the theater?

[Frank] I am. I am going to go. I got my booster. I'm going to do whatever they tell me to do, and I'm going to go. It's a movie. It's a huge, big musical. It's playing on IMAX theaters.

[Crystal] Wow.

[Frank] It's got to be seen on the screen. I just can't not, so that's my culture for the week.

[Crystal] I do miss that, like I used to just go to the movies on my own on a free day.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] And I really especially like the theaters with the reclining seats.

[Frank] Oh, yeah, [inaudible].

[Crystal] And then just sob through movies by myself and not feel any kind of way because I was not there with anyone except for children because, you know?

[Frank] I would do that too. I would usually see a movie that made me cry or --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] -- that made me feel pleasure like a musical or -- I remember seeing -- I tell this story -- I went to see Pitch Perfect 2 by myself, and it was like me, a mom and her son, and a group of like four girls, and me, the old geezer in the back being weird, and I was loving every second of it, but I had to see that on the screen too because I loved Pitch Perfect 1. Musicals. So there you go. So Latinx --

[Crystal] But no love for Pitch Perfect 3?

[Frank] I love them all. I can't fault any of them. The first one was a revelation, but I can't --

[Crystal] I did love -- I did actually like that.

[Frank] -- I will not criticize it.

[Crystal] That's a musical, right? And I liked it, so there you go.

[Frank] Basically. They sing and, you know, they sing. That's what it's about, so, yeah, I definitely think it's a musical. So like you said at the beginning when I said take it away, we read Velvet Was the Night [inaudible] --

[Crystal] Going straight in, yeah.

[Frank] Moreno-Garcia. Are you ready? Or do you have something cultural to talk about?

[Crystal] I was ready to go, yeah.

[Frank] All right, baby, let's do it. You're ready to go. So you liked it, you said. It's definitely -- I was excited when you suggested it. Now, this is on the Best Books of 2021?

[Crystal] Yes, we got it from that list.

[Frank] NYPL's Best Books of 2021.

[Crystal] And I had never read this author, but you had previously with --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] -- Mexican Gothic, right?

[Frank] Mexican Gothic, which was a big hit, and she's clearly on a roll.

[Crystal] How does this compare?

[Frank] Well, that's what going to interesting to say is that she -- I don't know a lot about Moreno-Garcia, but she's a writer's writer it seems because she wants -- she seems to want to explore different genres every time she writes a new book, and I'm sure that's by design. Like Mexican Gothic was a gothic horror. This is straight up and billed as a noir, which we've talked about before. I talked about Postman Always Rings Twice on the podcast.

[Crystal] That's a great one.

[Frank] Yeah, and so -- and I think she's written fantasy, vampiry, other books, and other genres.

[Crystal] Really?

[Frank] She likes like so-called pulpy genres like -- or reinventing them like for herself, but for her own enjoyment, really, it seems like to challenge herself to write in another genre. She definitely likes writing in genre as we say, and this one's noir. So that intrigued me because I love noir and love exploring noir, so was like all into it, and Velvet Was the Night is a great title. Sounds like a perfect noir title.

[Crystal] And the song title too.

[Frank] It's a song title?

[Crystal] No, no, it sounds like it would be because --

[Frank] Oh.

[Crystal] -- you know how there's a playlist at the end?

[Frank] Yes, I mean, all right, the book takes place in 1971, and -- which is like post-class ect noir [assumed spelling] period. I mean, I guess, you know, noir really kicked into high gear, as far as I know, after World War II. It was definitely attributed to the repercussions of World War II, and I was thinking about this this morning like how at least in the popular imagination like I always say this with regards to the pandemic that we're in the middle of something. It hasn't lodged itself as a narrative in the public imagination yet because that takes time. Like history has to keep moving along, and it has to be in the past. So when we say like after World War I, we always look at the 1920s were like wild, and like carefree, and like people acting up, and partying hard, and the flappers, and, you know, bootleg booze, and so that, I'm sure, was a lot more, you know, diverse in terms of behavior, but that's how we see the 20s. And it was interesting to me because what followed after World War II was -- not that -- was more of a existential sort of -- well, on one hand, an existential crisis of like who are we? And adjoined with this sort of like aspirational middle class pushing towards getting out of the cities and having a traditional family life, and they sort of were on this different tracks, but the same -- almost the two sides of the same coin, and I wonder why like after World War II, it wasn't sort of like a release of like partying like it seemed to be after World War I. And I wonder if the increase in media and seeing actual war like in newsreels, I guess at that time, radio -- but radio existed in the 20s. It is more popular -- has more of an effect on the psyche in a darker way. I'm here -- I am blaming media again, but maybe it's to blame. But anyway, so noir developed out of that period, and it's definitely an existential situation where people are like wondering who they are and where they fit, and usually are disenfranchised or feel disenfranchised from what seems to be the mainstream or from mainstream joys, maybe that opposite of the middle class aspirational suburbs [inaudible] after World War II. So this one takes place in 1971, and interestingly enough, it's during a time of war or a dirty war in Mexico, where the government regime is trying to stamp out any kind of infiltration of dissent, especially in a communist bent because the Cuban Revolution had just occurred and was successful in Cuba installing communism there, and Mexico didn't want it in their country. So the government is sort of very seriously trying to infiltrate student groups, protest groups. I mean, this is after the late 60s when protests were huge and were still continuing to be huge where people were letting their dissent be known. So we have two characters: Elvis and Maite, who don't meet possibly until the end, but you follow them in alternating chapters from their perspective. And then Elvis is a Hawk, which is a group run by the government designed to infiltrate these student protests and dissidence, and so they're very young to look like students, these Hawks, and they infiltrate these groups and then, you know, beat the students up or worse to stop the protests. So do you have anything to add about the story or what you're thinking of?

[Crystal] I mean, like, you know, in terms of general genre like thriller, mystery, you know, I think the romance was a little bit of an oversell in terms of the publisher description in my opinion.

[Frank] Hold that thought because --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] -- I want to discuss romance with you, and I'm sort of --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- glad you sort of said what you just said because I have thoughts, honey.

[Crystal] Okay, good, I'm so excited to hear your thoughts.

[Frank] Yeah, I definitely wanted to close up with the romance aspect because there are -- it's a mystery. There is -- well, basically, you know, a neighbor of Maite goes missing, and she's taking care of -- Maite's taking care of this girl's cat because the girl is going to leave for the weekend, but she never comes back, so she's missing. So, basically, and she apparently has some film of the Hawks -- like proof that the Hawks -- the government-run young group to break up dissidence -- has film of them in action which splashed in the media will reveal the government is implicit in this because they keep denying it. They're like students are killing each other. We're not involved [inaudible]. So that's sort of the mystery plot that gets rolled out, and you follow through, and Elvis is one of the Hawks, and Maite is trying to find the girl who is missing because she wants her money --

[Crystal] For taking care of the cat.

[Frank] -- [inaudible] sort of slightly impoverished secretary in a legal firm, and then she gets caught up in it, and obviously Elvis gets caught up in it too. So that sets the plot in motion in terms of the mystery, thrillery political plot. I mean, Maite, what do you think of her? I mean, she's about to turn 30.

[Crystal] And obsessed with aging. I'm just like you're 30. Calm down.

[Frank] I mean, yeah, obsessed with aging, obsessed with her looks, obsessed with her clothes, obsessed with her class.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Obsessed. In a way, I was waiting for the moment where she might transform in a way because she's sort of petty.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You know? I mean, she's like -- You almost want her to be like, oh, she's going to be this spinstery, almost 30-year-old, not married, living alone. Mom prefers her other sister, and, you know, always her mother is always downgrading her. People are always downgrading her. She's always downgrading herself. And you want to get a sense of like she's going to sort of bust out of that, and she just -- she really doesn't for most of the book. Sort of caters to it.

[Crystal] Almost.

[Frank] [inaudible] Even a scene where she's in a journalist's house who might have some information, and Maite is basically observing the journalist woman's looks, and assessing them and also then assessing her own, and hiding her hands because she got some ink on her hands, so she wants to hide them because they're dirty. And I was like she's worried about her looks and the other woman's looks when she's possibly in the middle of some serious danger.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] She can't let go of it.

[Crystal] Very self-conscious, for sure, but, I mean, I also see her as very much the anti-femme fatale too. In that genre of books, there's always that kind of femme fatale, and she is not that person and is super conscious of it. And then like, you know, in the end, towards the end, there's a moment where you're like, oh, but maybe she is, and then you're like, no, you know?

[Frank] Well, I think you're right. I think Silvia Moreno-Garcia consciously made her not what you think. Like the cover of the book is very femme fatale. It's probably more of a picture of the missing girl, Leonora, than it is of Maite, and I was like I appreciated that, but I almost -- given what we were told and see about Maite -- I almost want her to be more of a comedic figure. I kept like getting more like in like her self-centeredness and obsession with herself and her lack of self-worth could almost edge into comedy. It never quite did, but it wouldn't be a noir.

[Crystal] But I'm glad it didn't. Yeah, I'm glad it didn't edge into comedy because I don't think that she would have worked as a character to have like laughed at because I think her and Elvis, like they're both -- they talk about a lot -- like they're both very sad in a lot of ways and also very lonely, and I think there's a lot in this book that really talks about like alienation, you know, from their peers, society, all that kind of stuff, which I think is a theme that like is very common in Raymond Chandler's books, Dashiell Hammett's books, you know? And so I appreciate that she, yes, is sad, has a lot of these flaws, but I do also see her as kind of a complex character, which I think does subvert this genre, and some of that is in like her musical interest. Right, like they share -- Elvis and her -- share like this like deep passion for music, and I think for her in her like comics, which were the Secret Romance comics, and her obsession with that too, and like seeing -- in the comic book Secret Romance, there is this love triangle that happens, and I think it's interesting how she's like seeing that, wanting that, casting people in her life as those two like male lovers, right, and seeing herself in the middle of it. But it doesn't really end up in the way that she thinks it does, you know?

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] You know, that was very interesting as well because I couldn't -- I also couldn't help feeling that we were also Maite too because we were reading this book that has such kind of sensationalist, romanticized elements as well, and it felt like a mirroring effect. You know what I mean?

[Frank] Wait, say it again.

[Crystal] I think there was just like meta elements of Maite reading and pining about this love triangle in this kind of sensational Secret Romance comic series and in us as readers, reading this kind of like story, right, where it comes off like very dramatic as well, and there's also a love triangle too. And so I felt like there was this weird mirroring that was happening.

[Frank] Yeah, and I --

[Crystal] Well, like I guess also by the setup, you -- because like I said, Elvis and Maite don't meet until the end or somewhat to the end, but because they alternate chapters and their point of view, you really are set up to feel like, well, they're going to -- like this is the relationship that's going to happen possibly even though there are like other points to the triangle that occur. And you think possibly it could go in a different direction, but when you realize, at the end, of course, it was set up that way to sort of keep you -- keep them apart until the very end.

[Crystal] [inaudible]. Maite's not really aware of Elvis at all.

[Frank] No.

[Crystal] Like I think he, earlier on in the book, is aware of her, you know, and starts to develop a interest and liking of her, but is surveilling her, and so she doesn't really know him or see him until the very last few chapters, I think.

[Frank] All right, you just said the point that I wanted to make about Maite when you said she wasn't aware of him, that he was aware of her. He was literally was supposed to surveil her among other people, so it was his job to do that, and he does, which I love, which makes him a very interesting character to me. When he sees her, she's described as being not that pretty. She certainly describes herself as not that pretty, and he, Elvis, says that to himself as well, but he sees in her a sadness, or a tragedy, or a something in the eyes that reminds him of fairytales he read. And that, to me, is the core of Elvis, like he has a sensibility of being attracted to a certain sadness that is a maybe copartner in his own sadness, seeking another sadness to maybe -- they would cancel each other out. It gets deep for me when he made that observation, but when you said she's not aware of him, that's literally true. She does see him, and she does catch eyes with him before they actually do meet towards the end of the book, but I think that says something about Maite in that -- about a certain kind of character who is really embittered by being in a world where she's not the prettiest. She's not the smartest, and she's told that by her mother, and it's reaffirmed by her sister, and it's also just reaffirmed by the world around her, and she seeks refuge in her music and her romance comics.

[Crystal] And her stealing.

[Frank] Oh, and her stealing, which is an interesting element. Like she steals a little object from every house she manages to get into because she does a lot of pet sitting in her apartment building. Nothing important, but something that makes her feel like she's taking a little bit of their life that sort of maybe will rub off on her in a magical way.

[Crystal] It's a little secret, yeah.

[Frank] A little secret. So that's another element to her that's a little dicey but interesting. But there's a certain kind of character who possibly passes the point of no return when they are so embittered by -- or so downtrodden by the world around them like Maite is, where they don't seem to be able to bounce back, and they are no longer aware of people outside of them, but only themselves. Like it gets locked in this zone of I'm not worthy. I'm not pretty. I'm not going to make it. And they don't even see the potential in front of them, and that's what I said before about waiting for her transformative moment that didn't really possibly come. The more I'm talking about it, I think her transformative moment might be just after the last word of the book because you --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- don't see her transform.

[Crystal] No.

[Frank] Right, you see -- you get -- I loved Elvis, to be honest. You know, he's this kid growing up in a poor part of Mexico, has no prospect, not a great family life. They don't care if he lives or dies, one of those kids on the street, and ends up in a fight, and gets pulled into this -- because he fights well -- gets pulled into this Hawks group. And then he -- That's what I even love about the opening of the book. It says Elvis doesn't like to fight. The first line in the book is --

[Crystal] El Elvis.

[Frank] He didn't like beating people.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] El Elvis realized this was ironic considering his line of work. And it's almost like the beginning of Gone with the Wind when she says Scarlet O'Hara was not beautiful. It's almost like -- we're immediately being confounded by a conundrum of a character like -- and I love that about the setup of his character because you know that right off the bat, and he proves that he'd rather be doing crosswords. He's sort of aspirational intellectually [inaudible] sexy by his having a dictionary and deciding a word of the day, and he loves music too and American movies. And so I love that character because he -- it was set up -- he was set up with more of a consciousness of himself, whereas Maite didn't have a consciousness of herself except in the extreme negative --

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] -- which you could sympathize with, but eventually you're just like, honey, please, stop. I mean, like, you know, like? Like she doesn't even -- Interestingly, Silvia Moreno-Garcia doesn't even give her, at the climax, a moment of -- which maybe we expect -- of that kind of female character to suddenly whip out the gun and be physically proactive. She [inaudible] really, and she doesn't give her that moment, but what makes it work for me is what you made me realize is that possibly her transformation of love, really, and of being a good person comes after the last word of the book.

[Crystal] It does leave it hanging, but to speak to what you were saying earlier about like Elvis being very self-aware, and I think I agree with that in the sense that Maite was somebody who was like constantly seeing her reflection in other people's eyes, like how they saw her, and that it was very apparent when she is having a relationship with Reuben, right, and the constant spector of Reuben's previous girlfriend, Leonora, who was the woman who was missing in the -- Like she couldn't believe that he was -- could possibly not be comparing the two of them and everything that they were doing even though --

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] -- she was not physically there. But then the way the ending happens prior to like the stuff with Elvis turns out she was right like in some ways.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] But that's what intrigued me about her, and I've certainly maybe have to say I identified because she -- not only did she also say, oh, God, you know, I don't want him to see me. Even they've had relations, she's very self-conscious around Reuben. She also says at the same time, well, Reuben's not really attractive. He's not really attractive, and she keeps wanting to hope that he becomes more attractive to her, more like a secret romance comic book figure, like another character, Emilio, is this classically handsome guy. So Silvia Moreno-Garcia is not setting Maite up to be a, you know, this woman who loves -- who needs love so badly that she will love a nice person. She's still critical of Reuben. That's what made me -- the petty thing come in. Like I was just like, all right, she doesn't have to be like swept away by him, and she could be critical of him, but also self-aware about why am I doing this to myself? Why am I even slamming his looks as well as my own because he doesn't meet this fantasy standard I have? I definitely can identify, dun, dun, dun. But Elvis has a self-awareness, and his articulation of when he observes Maite about how she wasn't classically pretty like Leonora, but there was something about her. That also is a romantic element that I think I love about certain kinds of romance is that he sees deeper into her. And with that I'm also wondering, does Maite have it in her to have that [inaudible]? Because I don't know. I'm not sure. But now I'm -- which I didn't think of before -- I'm now locked into this thing that I think her real -- I'm hoping her transformation comes after the book, but I have to say with Elvis's self-awareness and his, you know, ambiguity about the job he has, which is beating people up horribly yet doesn't enjoy it, even though, of course, sometimes there is like this sense of violence is a part of being a man in a way, I loved and felt emotions at the end -- really literally the second to last page -- when he finally does encounter Maite after all the drama is over and all the, you know, the thriller espionage is resolved. He's just in the rain, of course, noir. They're in the bus [inaudible].

[Crystal] Very, what, Humphrey Bogartish?

[Frank] Right, but then this is what also gets me personally is that from a romantic point of view when he just says to her, you know, she's like why did you follow me? Why are you here? Like she -- this is when they first meet, and he, of course, knows here because like we said, he surveilled her, and he goes -- he just is smoking and staring into the existential abyss and just says I don't know what I want, don't know who I am. I don't know anything, but I can't stand being alone right now, and I have to say I love the -- I don't know what I want, don't know who I am. I don't know anything, which is to me like that bottom -- you hitting bottom in terms of what you think your life is about because also the Hawks are over. He's about to be on the street again. He doesn't know what the future is going to hold. He's 21 years old. And just that honesty of like I don't know anything. I almost didn't want him to say but I can't stand being alone right now. I thought that was slightly a -- sheepish way of indicating what he was really saying, but I almost wanted to say I don't know anything period and let that live because it's clear he wants -- he needs love. He needs connection. Like we all do.

[Crystal] And also in the context of like political chaos of that time too, right, but I like that quote that you read out because I wrote down just like one quote that I really liked that was earlier, and I think it was in talking about her. I think it was from his point of view, and he [inaudible] she existed in isolation, standing in front of a stark white background. Some people are made to be lonely, and it felt very much like in the beginning through the middle, the book was set up to talk about like really his loneliness. Like he's talking about her, but I think he's also like talking about himself that he was somebody who was made to be lonely and then at the end kind of breaking out of that. I also wanted to talk a little bit -- Speaking of Elvis, this book reminded me a lot of The Long Goodbye by Raymond Chandler, and I think he's a very kind of Philip Marloweish character, and some of that is that intense like isolation, alienation, being very set off from the side, also having a very maybe clear view of what's happening, right? And in the Long Goodbye, which I think was -- was it the last? -- No, maybe the something Farewell was the last one.

[Frank] Farewell, My Lovely.

[Crystal] Was that maybe the last one? This was either the last one or [inaudible] maybe in the Philip Marlowe series I think. I could be completely wrong. Somebody double-check that. But in that one, he -- Philip Marlowe -- kind of strikes up this weird friendship with this guy named -- I think -- Terry Lennox, who maybe used to be a veteran. Not really sure. But there is this thing where he has like made this connection with this person, and it made me think of like Elvis and El Gazpacho, one of his teammates of the Hawks, right, and then when -- spoiler -- Marlowe finds out that Lennox was killed, or like died of suicide, or whatever, he kind of goes on this -- I would say like -- almost revenge quest to find out what happened, and I felt like there were elements of that to where this person is so isolated that they made this connection. And for him El Gazpacho, he talked a lot about how like here was this stooge who was really real. He was not somebody who was like using him. Like it [inaudible] called him like brother, like my brother. I think he also had that same connection with El Mago --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] -- if I'm pronouncing that correctly, where that person who was their leader like was calling him like my boy, and there was like this fatherly connection too, and he talked about how like this person was like his god in a lot of ways. And different kinds of betrayals happened, and the -- you see the impact on him as a person where he does things that he -- you would never think that he would do, but I think he feels it so intensely, the betrayals that happen because of these -- I don't know -- like these kind of singular connections that he's made, and then they --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] -- don't turn out to be what he thought. I don't know. It's very interesting, but I feel like she really got that flavor out of the Philip Marlowe books correctly.

[Frank] Well, that was beautifully put because I think that's exactly what I'm saying about Elvis vis-a-vis Maite is that you really do see the vulnerability in this character of like his seeking out family, his seeking out familial connections, his need to be loyal. Or like he's even loyal to El Guero, who is like the thug in their team, who just loves crunching bones and beating up people. He's protective of him at one point when he gets -- El Guero gets beaten up and admits his sort of like, yeah, this loser guy. He's always so mean to me, but like I have to help him and take him to the doctor. So you see that range in Elvis that you don't really see in Maite. Now I'm locked into this thing that -- because of you really helped me. Thank you, dear -- into this thing that she's really not going to come to fruition until after. And I'm just going to have to be -- say she is coming to fruition after or becoming a more balanced or rounded person maybe. She really does seem locked up in her own self-loathing and bitterness. What?

[Crystal] No, I agree. I agree. I think --

[Frank] You don't see that range in her like you do in Elvis.

[Crystal] But it made me wonder because I agree in the sense that like I have that hope for her like after the last page like what happens because he's essentially waiting in the rain for her, and she has the choice of going towards or just going away, right?

[Frank] Right, and you don't know what she does.

[Crystal] You don't know. And of course like with the Philip Marlowe book like, you know, those always end with Sam Spade or Philip Marlowe like walking away. Like they're kind of like rejecting that opportunity to be close, I think, for the most part, and I think there was something in that moment of realization that she realizes that she thought she was the heroine in this book, but then realizes she says that she was in fact written out of the book at the end. Do you remember that part?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] And I wonder if that's the moment where like it clicks for her. Like why am I fantasizing about all of this stuff, right, and I should just maybe look at reality, and maybe that will be --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] -- something that changes her, and hopefully after the chapter after that, she goes towards him.

[Frank] I think you're right because she also -- like she's very much about her romances and her narratives, her comic narratives, like that. She does say, at one point, when she does have that -- as you say -- that turning point in her psyche where she's like this is the beginning of a story I don't know. Something like I don't know this story. Like I -- Very good point, Crystal, because you're right. She's suddenly like without a narrative, like her romance narrative has fallen out of her psyche, and she doesn't have it anymore. So the way she's sort of been like -- all of that has been erased. You could say if her romantic dreams or the romantic narrative has been erased from her psyche, then also so has the self-deprecation and self-disgust as well because that was tied up in that narrative, and she could never meet the criteria of that narrative. She could never be the femme fatale. She could never be that. So I feel hopeful now.

[Crystal] And also too I will say that last chapter was labeled an epilogue, right, so like the final chapter of the book that's not the epilogue is the part where she talks about feeling she was written out the story, and I think there's that realization that like, oh, this was -- even though we say it's like it is Maite's story, but like in some ways it's really, Leonora, the missing woman's story who is missing for a huge part of it. But then the fact that it was a epilogue that maybe could have been the prologue that's like you were saying, the start of a new story, one that maybe she is cast as that central character and with Elvis. Yeah.

[Frank] But that's true because you're right, it is called the epilogue, and the way -- and that three, four pages where Elvis tracks her down and what we basically just discussed, but the chapter before ends with, you know, Leonora showing up and her possible love interest Reuben basically saying, no, it's Leonora. I'm not interested in you, and she sort of was hoping that she -- they -- he would be. And she says to Leonora like don't forget your damn cat this time as she walks out. So it ends like still with her --

[Crystal] Bitter.

[Frank] -- all right, you know, you're convincing me. She -- the narrative she's used to is over, and she's -- you could say she's just this -- even though she doesn't know what the new written narrative is going to be, and maybe that's the point. She doesn't have a romantic structure in which to put her life. I'm -- And, you know, and therefore, she can't judge herself like she did before because that narrative doesn't exist. She's not constantly -- she doesn't have to constantly strive or hope that she will be this beautiful thing. She can just be whatever she is. But maybe like Elvis says, I don't know what I want. I don't know who I am. I love that line. I don't know anything. I mean, I love when people say that and mean it because it's so true of so many moments in my life, and that's sort of like the baseline. Like in a way, she doesn't -- how would she know who she is anymore? But she's still, like, she still clings to her because after he says that she is thinking this guy is crazy and I -- but she does jump off the bus after he says I'm going to get off the bus and wait in the café for you if you want to follow me. And she stays on, but then she gets off at the very next stop. And, oh, see, so it ends like this. She wondered what would happen if she started walking there, if she did not head immediately home, and this is to your point, Crystal. She wondered what kind of story started like this. She saw a figure in the distance, hazy, and he waved at her. Maite held her breath because she's -- and she could turn around. I mean, if you want to believe that it's a happy ending which I think Silvia Moreno-Garcia wanted it to be, she [inaudible] hold her breath and then releases into her new narrative, which is to do with Elvis. But it's true, they don't end up in a clinch, end up in the rain. Aww, all right, I like her a little more than I think I did before now that you just convinced me.

[Crystal] I will say like one of the things that I did when I was reading the book. Like I took a look at the table of contents. I skipped to the back to see the playlist --

[Frank] Oh, yeah.

[Crystal] -- and I actually found a playlist on Spotify, I guess like maybe a fan or somebody made, and it was really interesting and kind of fun to like listen to that playlist as you're reading the book because so many references to songs are brought up, and there was like a moment when I think he finds this record in her apartment when he's like surveilling her, Blue Velvet, and that was what was like playing at the time that I was reading, and I thought that was kind of like really fun. And, you know, to think that gives me weirdly like hope about the future of their story is like this weird connection that they both have to music where they were even like at one point even though she didn't know him, they were almost like dueling with music too. Remember that scene when she was like dancing with Reuben, puts on the song? Then he puts on this other song, Elvis does. He's still a stranger to her at that point, and then she has to have the last words and puts another like romantic song on too. Yeah.

[Frank] Music is part of it.

[Crystal] For sure, yes.

[Frank] I mean, I love that idea, you know, because it's hard to remember like 1971. Like, you know, in life, it's very hard to remember, but it seems so true that in life you go through your day, and there would be a radio on somewhere or the radio in the car, or like, you know, and it was not a playlist of your own design. It was like music that would just be happening. And to me as a kid, there was something magical about that, and that's about hearing a song at the right time at the right moment or, you know, not hearing it so to speak, even though it's playing, but that's sort of like it's in the atmosphere, in the ambience of your day, and that definitely comes across here. I mean, there's a scene where Elvis gets beaten with a newspaper. This guy beats him terribly, and there's this song on the radio playing in the other room, and it's sort of very emotional that way. Or they play records, and they have to -- their records are finite. They don't keep going, and going, and going. You have to either -- the music will stop, which changes the mood in the room, or they, of course, they'll move the needle, and start the song again, or play another one. I don't know. I love these sort of acted upon and acting on feel of the music here. Like the music either is just happening, or you decide it's going to happen, but it's not just this infinite playlist kind of thing. And I think you're right. I mean, oh, that's what I was going to say with the music is that a side note about the music I found out, or maybe it's mentioned in the book. It's briefly mentioned that as part of this sort of governmental clamping down on dissidence, rock music of 1971 was not -- was prohibited, and a lot of these songs like Blue Velvet were songs of a previous generation from like the 50s, and the Mexican government allowed people to cover these older songs that they thought were not politically upsetting. So they would be covered by Mexican performers, these older songs, and that was the songs like these younger people in the 70s would be exposed to rather than like the Beatles, or Rolling Stones, or something like that. Just another example of the government control. So [inaudible] why she had music be so important. Even though there -- like there are -- there were rock, underground rock, and roll clubs that the government couldn't shut down necessarily. So you had this weird mix of these old ballads of like Blue Velvet and Elvis -- I guess Elvis Presley was even 15 years before. I mean, some of the songs before 1971. I don't know.

[Crystal] I did wonder because like I'm not -- I would not consider myself somebody who is like a huge music appreciator or whatever. People who are very knowledgeable about music in that time period, like what -- because I think it has its own kind of language and this sort of significance of why she plays certain songs at certain times. Certainly, when they were doing that musical like dual situation, like there was a secret conversation that was happening through the music, so I'm interested in like knowing, you know, people's perspectives on that because I know the way I am. Like when I listen to music, I'm not really hearing like the lyrics in the same way. Yeah, you know?

[Frank] Yeah. No, go ahead.

[Crystal] Because I think at one point in that -- was it the diner that she was with Rueben and Elvis was watching -- she puts on the song At Last, right by Etta James, and I think either she -- No, maybe Elvis comments like of course she would put that song on or something, and it had this kind of significance to him as somebody who was a music lover, yeah.

[Frank] I remember [inaudible] flash like as a kid in the backseat of the station wagon hearing The Doors Light My Fire. [ Singing ] Like and I was -- I just have this flash of a memory of just being like that's -- this guy's singing about something I don't really understand yet. Like what -- He's like light my fire. I'm like what? Like I'm feeling it, but like I don't understand it, but I'm like I remembered it. Just have music -- I mean, that's what I mean, like just happened to be on the radio. I happened to hear it. I happened to connect with it, but not understand it, and it's sort of a -- there's a magical quality to that. It wasn't like this preordained -- I sort of like the idea that it wasn't a preordained playlist. It was just on the radio. I don't know. Music, yeah? I don't know. I don't [inaudible], blah blah blah.

[Crystal] I think it's a very smart technique that the author used to kind of like really capture the time and the setting, and I think it was really effective. Now, I will also just say, I mean, maybe just the flaw of the genre, there were certain plot points that I was like this is the most obvious thing ever and one was definitely the statue.

[Frank] Totally.

[Crystal] I was like this is so obvious that this has to be a red herring that you bring this up that she kind of has this desire to steal and stuff, really like investigated much over the course of the book, just kind of like it's this random thing that happens. And of course that has a thing that like everybody was looking for. And then the other thing too was the military uncle, and you're just like, oh, this person is a military man, blah blah blah. How many military men are there?

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] And then of course that connection.

[Frank] That's interesting because the military -- the guy who's like the prime villain turns -- is El Mago. He turns out he's the guy that Elvis -- his boss that he adores and wants to be like, and it turns out he's like the bad guy. But I didn't quite -- I didn't really see that coming per se, and when it happened, I was like, oh, but the minute she stole the little figurine, I was like, that's where the photographs are. I knew that right away. And when it broke finally and they've popped out, I was like, well, yeah, and I wonder if Moreno-Garcia was intentional on her part that it wouldn't be so much a mystery about where this stuff was, but it was more about the machinations and --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- of either side getting to it because then --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- when the photographs are -- well, she has to be have been conscious of that because -- once the photographs are found, they are also then exposed to light and rendered neutral [inaudible].

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Everyone is sort of like, well, all right, that's done. Who cares? Until the whole [inaudible] book is like.

[Crystal] Yeah. I think I forgive it a lot more in this book because of the context of the kind of pulpy genre book that she is writing and the fact that, as you were saying, like this is more -- not so much about those individual connections, but about like why all the stuff is happening, right? And so it still remained really like -- even knowing those things, it still remains a very interesting book, you know? Like that -- it wasn't -- the -- how should I say it? The whole book doesn't hinge on finding those photographs, right?

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] Like, yeah, it's much more of a side thing.

[Frank] Maybe the whole book hinges on the two of them finding each other.

[Crystal] Oh, very nice.

[Frank] Aww, it's not about like the resolution of a thriller. It's about these two characters that have to go through this tumult to get to each -- to get to a place where they can stand face to face and make their choices because that's really how it ends, but they -- it brings them face to face at the end. And after spending the whole book going through this, you know, mishigas, aww.

[Crystal] So maybe like Elvis is at that point unencumbered of these kinds of entanglements with El Mago and the people around him, and then she is -- has severed those like internal entanglements of like being caught up in this weird romance story, and they're maybe at the right place, as you said, to find each other.

[Frank] There you go. That's the story, and I'm sticking to it.

[Crystal] We solved it. It's great. We did it.

[Frank] We solved it. The puzzle unlocked. No, I -- that makes sense to me in terms of what this book is about which isn't quite surface for me until discussing it with you. Thank you, Crystal.

[Crystal] You know what? And now I'm going to go back on what I said earlier. I think it is super romantic.

[Frank] Aww, revelation.

[Crystal] So it's like what, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I'm going to stick with that.

[Frank] See, I agree with you, and I think Silvia Moreno-Garcia because, of course, she's listening is now leaning back and thinking good work, my children.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] You've discovered the key to my book. I think it is super romantic.

[Crystal] He's smoking a cigarette in the rain in a trench coat.

[Frank] She's watching [inaudible].

[Crystal] And then she gets on that plane, and she just like flies off and is like I've done it. We're good.

[Frank] She goes off to like Brazil where she's going to embark on another crazy journey. She's like, all right, Crystal and Frank from The Librarian Is In figured it out, baby.

[Crystal] Finally.

[Frank] Time to jump on TWA and fly off to another adventure. Aww, revelations, revelations. Well, that was fun.

[Crystal] We didn't even talk about the cult, but that's another time.

[Frank] That was what book discussions are all about? What?

[Crystal] I said we didn't even talk about the cult. I think that's for another time.

[Frank] Yes, there's a couple of subplots that are pretty harsh, especially like Elvis and that older American lady. Oh, [inaudible].

[Crystal] Oh.

[Frank] [inaudible]. Not nice, oh, Elvis or Arameni Gildo [phonetic], his real name, Arameni Gildo.

[Crystal] Yeah, that comes out at the end.

[Frank] I like that character. I really like the character of Elvis. Now I like Maite more, more than I did. I think we brought it -- we brought the narrative to what it should be, and it is -- and is in the text, so, see, that's what's amazing about reading. It's in the text. Sometimes, your own brain can't process it fully, and then when you talk to someone about it, it does. Now this book has a lot more meaning to me.

[Crystal] And I think you did also like a really good job of like setting out the historical context of this book at the start of this podcast, but there were really so many different references. Actually, I had never heard about that. Like and I may mispronounce this, the Tlatelolco massacre?

[Frank] Yeah, I can't pronounce it either.

[Crystal] Yeah, but there were so many different -- You know, I think we forget because we have this like very American viewpoints of things that are happening outside of the United States, right? And it was interesting because with that historical context, I was like looking up different things, and I was just like, wow, this is wild. And at the very end, there's a author's note where she references a lot of the stuff very lightly. But it's like, you know, this is a fictional tale that's based on a real life horror story, right, is what she says.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] And just like truly.

[Frank] It's also said that the Hawks who were Mexican kids basically --

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] -- hired to infiltrate and beat up protestors were also subsidized and trained by the CIA.

[Crystal] Yes, yes.

[Frank] So, you know, America was complicit in this sort of tamping down of perceived communism and dissidence, so the whole, you know, the political aspect. It mean, relatable today as it was then for sure.

[Crystal] Yes, the political aspect with the American part, but in thinking about the music too, like the sort of the importing of American culture as well. And there's a -- I think there's a lot to be gleaned from this in relation to America's role in a lot of these events.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] But, again, for another time, but this was very interesting.

[Frank] Ah, I'm exhausted. Okay, that was a pleasure. I feel like I've achieved -- God, I was going to use a word I don't think I should use.

[Crystal] Peak librarianship. Just say that.

[Frank] There you go. You brought me to the peak moment of librarianship, thank you.

[Crystal] We did some good investigating of book stuff.

[Frank] Yeah. So the next time we're going to read whatever we want, free-for-all read, but thanks again for this. I feel like -- I feel satisfied. Oh, is this the very last one?

[Crystal] I don't know. How many more weeks do we have? I think we have like another week. No, sorry, another recording this year, right? Although, I guess if it does get released in January -- I am making the noises right now.

[Frank] I know. So glad this is almost over.

[Crystal] Speaking about like [inaudible].

[Frank] You're taking tape off a dispenser and cutting it off with the little serrated edge on the tape dispenser, correct?

[Crystal] Yeah, you're right.

[Frank] Is it really?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Oh, clut.

[Crystal] I had a different kind of tape.

[Frank] This is, all right, this is going to be -- now that you're almost done with your ASMR, now I'm getting so good at it I think that's the union of when we will both reach fruition together [inaudible] ASMR behind because I finally cracked that puzzle. I can't believe -- okay.

[Crystal] Perfect moment of self-actualization, right? Yes.

[Frank] Wow, you've brought me to the ASMR success pinnacle.

[Crystal] I had three different kinds of tape I was going to go through. See, again, I'm running out of objects.

[Frank] Well, that's getting too much.

[Crystal] I mean, there is a lot of glitter here.

[Frank] Well, make it a -- make it good for the next time because that's the last.

[Crystal] Can I borrow somebody's baby for the next one? That's my thought. Make it really good.

[Frank] That would be a shocker. Can you imagine?

[Crystal] Let me just borrow your baby for a ASMR thing.

[Frank] Oh my God.

[Crystal] I don't know, I'll have to think of something very surprising. I just don't know what to do.

[Frank] All right, you'll get there. All right, got to go.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] It's enough. People have stuff to do. Moving on. Thank you, everybody, for listening, and we hope to very much see you the next time on The Librarian Is In.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We're produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.