Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

Listen on Apple Podcasts | Listen on Spotify | Listen on Amazon Music

Hey all! The weather's turning, the leaves are falling...what better reasons do you need to listen to this week's episode!? So settle in, get cozy, and join us!

Frank and Crystal dedicated most of this week's episode to discussing the viral New York Times article "Who Is the Bad Art Friend?" by Robert Kolker. Don't forget that your NYPL library card gives you access to the Times through the ProQuest database.  

In addition, Frank read and discussed the novel A Children's Bible by Lydia Millet.

A Children's Bible by Lydia Millet

Lydia Millet's multilayered new novel follows a group of children and their families on summer vacation at a lakeside mansion. The teenage narrator Eve and the other children are contemptuous of their parents, who spend the days and nights in drunken stupor. This tension heightens when a great storm arrives and throws the house and its residents into chaos. Named for a picture Bible given to Eve's little brother Jack, A Children's Bible is loosely structured around events and characters that often appear in collections of Bible stories intended for young readers. These narrative touchstones are imbedded in a backdrop of environmental and psychological distress as the children reject the parents for their emotional and moral failures-in part as normal teenagers must, and in part for their generation's passivity and denial in the face of cataclysmic change. (Publisher summary.)

Are you ready to hear our next episode's theme? Frank and Crystal are picking their own books based on the theme of "cozy"—whatever that means to them. Don't forget to email or comment below with your pick of a cozy book!

Were you able to guess Crystal's ASMR object this week? Did you now it was a Lego Thanos? Or did you also think it might be a stapler?

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

---

How to listen to The Librarian Is In

Subscribing to The Librarian Is In on your mobile device is the easiest way to make sure you never miss an episode. Episodes will automatically download to your device, and be ready for listening every other Thursday morning

On your iPhone or iPad:
Open the purple “Podcasts” app that’s preloaded on your phone. If you’re reading this on your device, tap this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass in the app and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.”

On your Android phone or tablet:
Open the orange “Play Music” app that’s preloaded on your device. If you’re reading this on your device, click this link to go straight to the show and click “Subscribe.” You can also tap the magnifying glass icon and search for “The New York Public Library Podcast.” 

Or if you have another preferred podcast player, you can find “The New York Public Library Podcast” there. (Here’s the RSS feed.)

From a desktop or laptop:
Click the “play” button above to start the show. Make sure to keep that window open on your browser if you’re doing other things, or else the audio will stop. You can always find the latest episode at nypl.org/podcast.​​ ​​​

---

Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. My name is Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] And I think we have a little bit of books, culture, and what to read next, because we're going to tackle -- it's probably -- you know, the way the news cycle works is so fast that this is probably behind the times, but we're going to talk about it anyway. It's something that Crystal brought to my attention, the last time, an article written in The New York Times. And this should be interesting because they're sort of like reading articles and discussing, and we haven't really done that because there's lots of tricky aspects to it. So I read a book called "A Children's Bible" by Lydia Millet.

[Crystal] Oh, okay. I've heard of that.

[Frank] Don't you love the cover?

[Crystal] Well, it's got a big glare on it, so I can't tell.

[Frank] Oh.

[Crystal] Turn it a little bit.

[Frank] Sorry.

[Crystal] It's right into the light. Oh yeah, it's much better. Yeah. Nice.

[Frank] It's sort of looks like a children's book of animals. It's actually facing sort of a burning paper edge with fire beyond it, at the very edge of it. One thing that's interesting to me that I can't figure out if it means anything is if you -- can you see the title? How the a of "A Children's Bible," the a is slightly cut off?

[Crystal] Oh, interesting.

[Frank] And I thought it was like a printing thing. I noticed it, but I thought it was a printing thing. Then I saw other editions and it -- I think it's an -- it's intentional because her name at the bottom is perfectly edged there. And I thought there's something to that. Like why would you cut off a teeny bit part of the title?

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] And maybe you want to bring attention to the word "A Children's Bible." It's not "The Children's Bible." It's "A Children's Bible," which could figure in what I'm about to say. So I read "A Children's Bible" by Lydia Millet and -- it's -- it off -- off the top of my head at first, I was like this is like a novelization or a tribute to like Greta Thunberg. How do you say her name?

[Crystal] I'm not sure. I just call her Greta.

[Frank] Greta, the teenage climate activist, ferocious teenage climate activist. Because this book definitely has to do with climate catastrophe. And I always love a good apocalypse, that's for sure, but this definitely has more to say than just the thrill of watching the world end. So "A Children's Bible." And then the other thing it reminded me of was "Godspell," the musical "Godspell," because the musical "Godspell" takes a whole bunch of young New Yorkers, well, in the movie version it's New York, and gathers them together whereas the rest of the population seems to disappear. And they are taught by Jesus Christ the parables, and enact them, and how to be a good person, and then go out in the world and spread the gospel. And I've always loved it. So this involves -- "A Children's Bible" involves a group of kids, teenagers, who are at this big mansion in like Northeastern United States with their parents. They don't -- kids don't know each other. The parents knew each other in college and decided to get together for a last hurrah, and they gather at this giant mansion that they rented. So there's lots of families, at least 10 of them or 12 of them, and all the kids are pushed together. And the -- the adults are definitely described as sort of a little bit dissolute. They drink a lot. They party a lot. They ignore the kids completely, and the kids are more than happy to be ignored because they just resent the parents completely just as like, "You're not taking care of us, you're just extra." And so the kids get together, and indeed they have a game where the winner would be the one where the other kids can't figure out who that kid's parents are. They don't want to align themselves with their actual parents because they don't want to be associated with them at all. Since we're at the first part of the book, all the kids are trying to catch the other kids in the act of engaging with their own parents so they could say, "Ah, you're out because we know those are your parents." And so the winner is the one -- the last one they guess who's their parents are. So not a great relationship. And essentially what happens is there's a gigantic storm, a catastrophe, a natural catastrophe that through various machinations ends up with the kids just leaving the house via boat, car, what have you, after this gigantic storm that's destroyed most of the house and possibly the country, or lots of parts of the country and world. So it could be a global catastrophe, because the parents are just sort of zoning out and not really paying attention. So they -- so they for -- you know, go out on their own. So already -- I mean, it's sort of like, could be said, it's written in broad strokes as a parable or an allegory because the parents, you know, almost uniformly are described that way, as sort of these drinker, drug taker, orgy maker, group of people. And the kids are this sort of smart conscious ones. And so that kicks off the story and then they go through various adventures until the end. And there's a lot of biblical illusions here. I mean, there are some people who come to save them, who are -- who try to help them in the mountains that they end up in, and they're called The Trail Angels. And their names are Mattie and Luca, so it's like St. Matthew and St. Luke. There is an appearance of the owner of this house they end up in that's called The Owner that sort of acts like a dais, smocking almost like a God-like figure that fixes things and seems to know things about the kids that they don't know themselves. So there's a lot of biblical illusions that someone else who's more familiar with the Bible might get more than I did. But I -- she doesn't -- Lydia Millet doesn't bring these biblical illusions to a firm structure where she's really consciously trying to say, "I am now putting this as a biblical allegory." She just introduces elements that indicate enough biblical references that you get the idea. And I think maybe that "A Children's Bible" the novel is actually more -- not a direct reference to the Bible, but a -- similar to the Bible in that it is an origin story, or a rebirth story, or a learning -- a lesson story to build a better world that the Bible can be said to be as well. Because it is the children that are going to save us, like Greta. So that's it in a nutshell. And, I mean, I could talk - well, I think we want to really get into this novel, but -- I mean to this article, but I thought it was interesting. And I like the apocalypse aspect because I always like a good end of the world thing and see how people navigate it, but let me see if there's anything specif. I mean, I know part of me questions the whole thing about like all adults are bad, all kids are good. I mean -- you know, I feel like when I was reading this, the kids -- because they have different personalities, could easily grow up to be just like the parents or similar to, not necessarily saving the world. And the main character who tells us this story is named Evie, which is another biblical thing, Eve, the first woman. So it could be more pinned on her than the other kids, or she is the one that's really going to be the leader in terms of protecting the planet. And I'll say one more thing. They - Evie's younger brother, Jack, who's like 11, is reading a book in the book called "The Children's Bible," which parallels the activities of the book. And he does have a revelation, to use another biblical word, where he looks at The Holy Trinity and says, "Oh, I think I get it. God is nature, Jesus is science, and the Holy Ghost could be considered art." So we believe in God, nature. We believe in Jesus Christ, science. And so I think it's making that reference that the biblical illusion is more about science and nature, and respecting that, and honoring that, and fixing the problems we have caused as human beings on our own planet, and focusing on that in the future. It's definitely about climate catastrophe, for sure. So I could say more as I usually -- I'm surprised -- before we got on the air I was like, "Oh, I do go on. We're never going to have time to talk about anything else." And now I think -- I feel on a strange like cutting-edge sword because this seems short to me. Everyone else out there was like, "No, we're good. Thank you." That's "A Children's Bible" by Lydia Millet.

[Crystal] Did Lydia Millet write another book recently? I feel like the name sounds really familiar, but not that --

[Frank] This was her last, I guess. I didn't know her really, and she's written like 13 other books. And I think she has written on climate change before. She works in some environmental group in Arizona or in the desert, so I've found out, so that she definitely has an interest in discussing this issue. It's definitely an issue book written as a parable story. Was that from your end?

[Crystal] [laughs] I don't know what's happening outside. [ Inaudible Comment ]

[Crystal] [laughs] You know what I mean --

[Frank] But anyway --

[Crystal] I was just going to add and say like my first, when you showed me the cover with like the way it was framed and how it seemed like it was narrowed. And I don't know why maybe because they used the word children reminded me of that curve on a good book "Slaughterhouse-Five" because they referenced like "The Children's Crusade" in it.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] It felt very different. I think there's been --

[Frank] Well, I mean, I think she's definitely make -- she's making generational generalizations in that the youth of today seem much more preoccupied with these issues than a previous generation. I mean, it's easy to get cynical in terms -- I remember in the '80s like when, you know, '80s was like greed is good and the "Wall Street" movie and making money, and Wall Street, and like over conspicuous consumption. And then certain cynical articles pointed out, well, you know, the flower children of the '60s who were all about anti-Vietnam and like social change are the kids who grow up to be the adults of the '80s. So you could cynically say like, you know, that movement, that social movement, turned into the "greed is good" era of the '80s. But that's also like overgeneralizing a whole generation. I mean, there's that whole issue of like is there really such a thing as generations?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I tend to not really think so. I like to feel that people are individuals and they form an aggregate certainly, but to say, "Oh, you're so millennial," is so reductive in that it's not fair to the person. Or you're such a boomer, you know. Usually, it's derogatory. I mean -- I mean, I also say that because when I -- I see the falsity in it. Like when I was a kid, I was considered the baby bust generation.

[Crystal] Hmm.

[Frank] Which was the generation that followed the baby boomers.

[Crystal] Oh, I see.

[Frank] It was the era of the population -- baby population went way down after the baby boom, and then it was Generation X after that, and then -- so I was never in a generation. Like at the time when I was young, they weren't discussing me. They were discussing the boomers before me or the Generation X 30-somethings after me.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And so I was like, "Well, I guess I don't have a generation." So now that marketing and advertising really tried to categorize everybody to get everybody into a generation so they could market to you --

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] -- you know, I'm certainly original X0 or they pushed me into boomer even. And I'm like, "I'm not a boomer." [laughs] You see, that's in itself. Like, I shouldn't have to say that. You know what I mean? Like -- so I don't -- I don't know. I think it's really just like lots of ways it's just marketing. It's like, we're going to define you, which actually is an argument I want to discuss in this article we read, about how language defines you and if you take that language in then you define yourself that way.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And that's a very interesting situation because if you -- well, we'll get to it. But there you have it, go.

[Crystal] Oh, I was going to say, yeah. Like with the generational labels and stuff, I agree with you in terms of like I don't think all so-called boomers, millennials, et cetera, are the same or act the same way. But I do think that they share some common experiences. Right?

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] I do think like millennials share a common experience in how the job market looks, how like housing looks. Like, you know, when you buy a house or if that's ever going to happen. And that can also attribute to likely the cause like some kind of anxiety and other things like that. But, yeah, I agree in the sense that we are individual people and, you know, just because you're in this generation doesn't mean that you act a certain kind of way [laughter].

[Frank] Right. And I think you hit it. It's really -- the more important factor is to discuss with each generation of youth what events they go through together.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I mean like my parents were tweens during World War II. So it's like, what does that mean? What does that impact you as a growing kid? You know, I was a very young child during Vietnam. I mean, how does that impact you? I still remember the articles in the newspaper before I could barely read it to seeing the pictures and how that impacts you. That's a more interesting, more valid conversation. It's when it gets into the marketing aspect of like saying, oh, this is how you are emotionally. I mean, you read articles and they're like, you know, kids today are the first generation not to surpass their parents in terms of their income or they're the first who won't own a house until they're after 30. I remember when I was 20, the same thing was in the air, because I was very attuned to what the media or newspapers were saying about my age group. They said the same thing then. They said, "Oh, this generation is not going to make as much money as their previous gen." So it's like it's all used to sort of sell stuff. And when you read stuff that indicates a trend, it's like really question like what's this trend. It's an author or a journalist sort of saying that's a trend, but maybe it's just three examples that this journalist saw in the world and now they're saying it's a trend.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You know, it doesn't mean it's necessarily a trend so --

[Crystal] I think, yeah --

[Frank] -- I really [inaudible].

[Crystal] And I think about like even being in different generations, I think people share these common experiences. They're just different, right? But they're also the same. Like I think every generation shares in the collective anxiety, as you said. You know, like the degeneration that is dealing with war or like resource scarcity, right? The generation dealing with job markets. I think the younger generation now dealing with like climate change, so these collective anxieties. But it's just -- and we all are feeling it, but just in different kinds of ways. So yes, I think we have more in common than difference [brief laughter].

[Frank] I think that was brilliant, Crystal. You actually pushed a line something that I was thinking about. Generational -- every generation has generational anxiety. And I think you're absolutely right, because every group of people when they're starting out in the world in whatever society they're in, whatever structure they're in, wants resources, wants to find resources. Like my age I could say, "Oh, who cares about online? Who cares about Twittit?" To tweet, Twitter or Reddit? Twitter. Like if I were 20, I would certainly be somewhat concerned because those are the resources out there that might be said to me are important for me to be a part of to gain connections, resources, love, all the things that human beings animals want. So I think you're right when you say generational anxiety. Every generation has to have sort of come of age in some sort of anxious form because they are concerned, to some degree or another, how am I going to survive in life?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] How am I going to make money? How am I going to find love? How am I going to raise a family? How am I going to find a partner? You know, all those things. So that's a -- I like how you said that, because I think that's true. I think that's what all humans share. And it's also true, like I just said, like, when you get older you could say, oh, you -- because the anxiety can dissipate in that respect. Like I'm not scrap as hungry for resources because I've sort of found them and I'm more looking towards my death than to, you know, another stage of getting or wanting to get. I mean, that's not to say that, you know, I have no goals or anything like that. It's just, it could change. So it's easy for an older person to say, "You know, you kids today are so blah, blah, blah," because that hunger has possibly a little bit disappeared. And when you're 20, I think you're so [gasps] like, "What am I going to do? Like, how am I going to get it? Like, oh, I want love the way I want it. I want money the way I want it. Or I want to have a certain life, or if I --" and then you grow up and you figure it out or try to the way you inspired it.

[Crystal] I had a friend who unfortunately did like pass away a few years ago, but she would always say to us like, you know, "I'm just at a different stage of life. Right?" And I liked that kind of terminology. Not that like we are really that different, it's just our stages are oftentimes different because she was a little bit older and stuff. And I think about that sometimes where I'm like surrounded by people of different ages. I'm just like, "You know, we're just at different stages of life or, you know, we're all going to go through this kind of same process." So.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, generally, you know, there's also the individual experience, but certainly there's something to be learned from your cohorts and from other age groups. So [coughs] let's go. So, Crystal and I read an article called "Who Is the Bad Art?" And you, when you were telling me this the last time we talked, I was like, "What? Bad art? Friend? Who is the bad art friend? And it's a term that's used by one of the players in the story, but -- art friend. But I had never heard it before, that's why I didn't quite understand exactly what you were talking about. But now that I've read the article, which I think a lot of people listening have read as well, I understand it better. So there's a lot -- I mean, after we talked last time, you -- I read it and I was like sucked into it like a soap opera.

[Crystal] [brief laughter] Right?

[Frank] Because it's a long form article, which I loved. I mean, it's like it forces you to pay attention and to actually commit to it. And I think a lot of people have because it's become sort of a sensation, which I loved that it twists and turns just as a story. And then the more time went on, I even was sort of like, I don't know if I want to talk about this because I don't really love -- and I probably -- I'm sure I do because we all gossip and stuff like that, but I don't want to talk about actual human beings and really criticize them harshly.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I just don't, as a principle. Like in a book, I can do it because that fictional character is presented to us by an author and it's all up for grabs in a way.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So we go for it. But these people exist. But then I thought what I'm going focus on is this article.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] What this article says about these people and what happened to them. And I didn't do any other research into it, so tell me why you thought you wanted to discuss this article, Crystal.

[Crystal] I mean --

[Frank] And a little bit about it.

[Crystal] Sure. I mean like the -- what you were saying about this being like a long form article, it does take you on this journey and why I like -- like we've talked about with our books that we've read and discussed, I like things where you start off thinking one thing and then your perception is constantly changing throughout. And I think this article and the writer, Robert Kolker, does like a great job of showing you the different perspectives and points of view, and that kind of theme kind of goes throughout. And I actually have, at this point -- like this is maybe my third reading of it, and I feel like each time I read it I come to a different conclusion, and I also find that to be really fascinating too. Right? To kind of give you a basic background, even though I probably won't explain it very well, and definitely for those who haven't read it, please do read it. Essentially it is two writers, Dawn Dorland and Sonya Larson. Dawn does this like really altruistic act of donating her kidney to a stranger, writes a letter, posts it on Facebook, and then doesn't really get a response that maybe she's seeking. And then it starts to come out that Sonya Larson has written a short story called "The Kindest" that is essentially kind of inspired by Dawn's experience. And then it kind of releases kind of back and forth where, you know, I think the lawyers are to get involved. Larson's story, "The Kindest," I think it's selected for some city race thing. Dorland kind of like writes to them, says this is taken from my experience, blah, blah, then like it gets pulled. So just kind of like snowballs from there. But, yeah, I will in say my first reading to this I kind of felt most pulled towards like maybe the morality aspect of it, if that makes sense. Or maybe like I leaned a little bit more on Dorland's side because that can be really shocking to have your experience, like to read it in a story. And then my second reading, I like -- then it was like, you know, Larson's side it just kept going back and forth for me. I don't know. What'd you think of it?

[Frank] Well, I would say you basically set it up and, you know, neither side will let go of this issue. Like Dawn feels that she's been plagiarized, and Sonya says, you know, all writers are inspired by the world in which they live and take from many different aspects of their life in the world in which they live. And neither side really, as you said, gives up. So the lawyers get involved and copyright issues are brought up, and who has the right to take what from another person's "life." And then what are the legalities of copyright and what is actual sealing of work? And obviously it gets emotional, and it gets -- but neither side will let it go. So therefore, that -- it keep -- it grew bigger and bigger and bigger [crosstalk].

[Crystal] [inaudible] I can say like -- I'll add, like, there's a couple of complications to this issue, which is that in terms of like thinking about the power dynamics here, Sonya Larson I think is a little bit more of an established writer than Dawn Dorland's, right? At the same time, Dawn Dorland is a White woman and Sonya Larson is, I believe, like a mixed race Chinese-American woman. So the issues of race starts to kind of play into it as well, and then race and power too.

[Frank] That -- all right, let me pause for a moment because this is the thing I thought of before we got on today, which was trying to help me focus on discussing this article without being glib or like, oh yeah, she's crazy or she's whatever. I -- the -- you know, Kyle Rittenhouse, the kid who killed a few people in Wisconsin at a protest, right?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] He's going to trial now.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] What's in the -- what was in the news today was the debate of what the prosecution and defense can call the people Kyle Rittenhouse killed.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] The judge is saying we can't call them victims, or we really can't even call them alleged victims, but one side could call them arsonists or looters.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] So each side is arguing for what the right terminology of the people who were shot and killed is. Which plays directly into this article because in many -- in a real way you could say Dawn Dorland donated a kidney of hers to a recipient of -- to any recipient that needed it.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] That's a statement of fact, right? Or as close to reality as we can get. Then we, as human beings, will try to make meaning of it and call it an altruistic act like you did.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Call it all sorts of things. And at one point in this story it's indicated, or explicitly said that Dawn Dorland is a narcissist who actually donated it because she wanted the attention mostly. Like she wants to be considered a wonderful person, and get love and appreciation, and respect because of that act.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] So, you know, what I'm saying is that there is human experience and then there's language. And I've said this before, then there's language on top of that. And that's what I also said about "The Children's Bible" -- "A Children's Bible." It's like what language we use to describe ourselves or other people, or our experience, when it gets in our bones, it feels real. Because, again, you have an experience, you have a -- we -- really, the order is this. An act, it happens. An emotion occurs. Language describes it.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] So that's our -- so in other words, all bets are off in how you describe what had actually happened and then it gets really complicated. Oh, I know what would have inspired me to say what I just said, is because you said you read it a couple of times and you were going back and forth between Dawn Dorland and Sonya Larson, as I -- as I did. I read it twice. And then it occurred to me, of course, why do I have to make one the victim and one the hero?

[Crystal] [brief laughter] Yeah.

[Frank] You know? Like [multiple speakers] --

[Crystal] I agree with that.

[Frank] They're both complicated people.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You know? And, like, we all are. So it's not like you have to struggle but that's, again, a language construct that sometimes we fall into unless we think about it that, "Woh-oh, someone's got to be right here. Someone's got to be wrong."

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] It doesn't work that way all the time.

[Crystal] And I think in a lot of stories, like in books that we read, fiction or otherwise, like there is such a clear like villain-hero story and you get like attracted to that and you want to kind of force that into that mold. But I will say, I agree. Like in my third reading of this article, which was today, I had a [inaudible] where I'm just like, you know, these two things can be true at the same time and are true at the same time, you know? Like I think they both share a lot of faults in this and also I can also see both their perspectives in it as well.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I mean, again, when I think of this article, I guess this article not these people because I don't know them. And even if I knew them, I couldn't probably -- I personally to me legitimately talk about them because you just don't know people to the core. You don't know everything about everybody in your life even. You know, you're surprised by your parents' behaviors sometimes. I mean, things like that. So it's the article, but it's just so you can't -- so one, I think, compares like how would I behave in this situation, just to try and make sense of it and see how -- see -- and also when you do that, you can also see how this story could have gone in different directions. Because at one point, Dawn Dorland starts a private Facebook with a lot of other writers she's been in workshops with, one of which is Sonya Larson. And it's a Facebook dedicated to her kidney donation and it's basically about bringing, she says, awareness to the need for organ donors and that kind of thing. And she notices that Sonya Larson is in that group, but she's one of the few who haven't said anything about it. Like a lot of people have been like, "Oh, that's great, good for you, you're amazing," and Sonya Larson hasn't. So then Dawn Dorland emails Sonya, because she says she thinks of her as a friend, even though later Sonya says, "I don't. I'm not a friend of Dawn's."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Which is, again, a judgment call on people and how they characterize their life and the language they give their life saying, "Oh, sure I consider a friend," where Sonya says, "No, you're not a friend." So what does that mean?

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] So Dawn reaches out to Sonya and says like, you know, "Blah like writing, writing, writing, and great workshop. And, by the way, did you notice like I donated this kidney?" And Sonya said, "Oh, yeah, it's amazing." And then the story takes off. For that example, I would think I would never personally do that. Like if I started -- even if I started a Facebook group, which I wouldn't, and the whole social media aspect of this is also comes into play, which I don't like, you know that, I would -- I might want the attention. I might think of that. I'd be like, "Well, I want a little attention for giving a kidney," but I would not seek it out.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Because Sonya Larson didn't say anything. I wouldn't have said, "Well, you know, by the way I donated a kidney." Even if I thought of this as a close friend, I would just seem sort of like either you do it or you don't, to me. To me. To me. To me. Like if you're going to give a kidney -- for me, if I was going to do that, nobody wants my kidneys at this point, but I would do it and that's it. I wouldn't make a big thing about it. But please believe that if this situation was right, I would mention it by the way. You know, and I'd even show the scar off probably. [ Laughter ] But I wouldn't truly, truly at this age -- again, we talked about age, getting a compliment for something feels great in the moment, but it doesn't feed you for life. It doesn't sustain you. And that's for me personally. So I know now that getting a compliment sort of is nice, but then if you still wake up you in the morning and have to get through the next chapter of your life, so I wouldn't seek it out. I just don't. I just wouldn't. Okay, attention and compliments naturally come to me, I don't [inaudible]. But do you know what I mean? She then did that [inaudible] thing that little moment when she reached out to Sonya, I thought, "Oh boy. Like, what is she doing? Like, what does she want from her?" It's like -- because then the accusation is made that Dawn really just wants attention for this and --

[Crystal] And credit.

[Frank] As it --

[Crystal] For another current work. Yes, right.

[Frank] And then Sonya really steals -- oh, well I just used the word, breaks from the Facebook page that Dawn had started a letter to the future donor of the kidney Dawn's donating that Sonya puts in a short story that you read apparently that is what this all article's about, called "The Kindest."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And it's about like the White Savior complex, like the -- and it said in the article that Sonya Larson as a writer is very interested in how one person can think they're presenting in a certain way and another person interpreted the opposite way.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Which is totally what we're talking about in terms of language. Like I think I'm a wonderful person and someone's like, "Oh my God, I can not stand that person because they're so holier than thou. It's like demonius [phonetic]."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] That conundrum, I think, is fascinating too.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm. I mean, and again, shout out to the author of this article who I think does such a like good job of presenting those aspects and, you know, what you were saying earlier, like we're very much sort of investigating these almost like characters. Because we don't really know, as you said, like the real people and the real things, just them through the lens of the writer. But, yes, absolutely like those little tidbits about like how it seems suddenly very clear that Dorland was really seeking some kind of validation, which makes me believe those kinds of claims of like this narcissism that maybe Dorland herself was not seeing in her, but other people were seeing. I also just wanted to say too this is like a little bit of a offshoot, what you were saying about the stealing and how we use that term stealing as like a bad thing. You know, I was in a class and the professor talked about the use of the word stealing rather than influenced, like being -- like an artist whose work is influenced by somebody else. And how like influence is a very like passive word where it kind of gives all the attribution and credit to the person who does the influencing, like say Andy Warhol or something like that. Whereas like stealing almost, I think, puts like the action into the hands of the person who is transforming that work and how maybe like that's not a bad thing. It made me just like kind of re-evaluate the word stealing as like they are doing something and maybe transforming that work, and they should get that kind of credit, versus the word influence where the original thing still looms so large over its. Right? But that's not the whole story, because they're doing something different. Right? Anyway, it's just -- so that kind of made me think of this as well. And which, by the way, I tried to send you this article about Jasper Johns, but I don't think it went through, but there's like some similarities to. Do you know Jasper Johns?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] He's doing his show at The Whitney. And there's been some controversy about one of his pieces called "Slice."

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Did you hear about that?

[Frank] Well, you sent it to me but I couldn't open it because it was a payroll for Washington Post. But parenthetically the library has The New York Times and Washington Post in their databases, so with a library card you can access them just for a little --

[Crystal] Very good. Very good, Frank. Excellent.

[Frank] But it's not -- I did not read it, but I see where you're going with this and that's the -- so the crux of this article is that Dawn Dorland on her Facebook page, it's a private Facebook page in which she invited a whole bunch of other writers from the workshop she's participated, and one of them was Sonya Larson, as I said. So she wrote, you know, about her own traumatic childhood and she felt like the abuses and suffering she had in childhood turned her into a very empathetic person, I'm paraphrasing. And that empathy made her feel other people's pain. And so the decision to donate a kidney, which was not designated for a specific person but anybody who needed it, was part of this. And so she ends up with saying she focuses mostly her mental energy on celebrating and honoring that person who will receive her kidney. And that statement was appropriated, taken, stolen, influenced, inspired Sonya Larson to put it in her story about a kidney donor. And it gets more and more complicated because in an original draft it was almost word for word, and by the final version of it it was much altered. And that's really the crux of the litigation. It's that Dawn Dorland thinks that this was plagiarism.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And Sonya is like, "You know, we're writers, we're inspired, this is a process. You should -- you know, you should be honored." And then you also -- Crystal mentioned credit.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Which is an interesting aspect too because when you said that, getting credit for something is an interesting choice. Like it might seem obvious, but it's not.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I mean, technically, Dawn Dorland could've seen this happening and said, "Okay, she took something from my story, made it a story that doesn't flatter the organ donor. To her, makes the organ donor a narcissist who wants attention, a White savior complex."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] "But okay, let her do it. I get writing. I get the process. Fine." She could have made that choice.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I seem like I'm siding with Sonya Larson here, but I'm just talking. I really want to talk about both sides because I'm more interested in just parsing it down. So I'm not -- or I should say I don't side with anybody. I think they're flawed people like the rest of us.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] If somebody wrote a 20-page article on me, I'm sure people would say I'm terrible or wonderful, or neither. So -- again, about me. So that, I thought that was interesting because the choices we make, and that again is experience, emotion, and then the language we use to describe that emotion. And I feel the emotion is so strong. Like there's points in the article where Dawn says she felt that Sonya Larson took her light from her. She took her experience from her. She took it. And the author of the article examines -- analyzes that as Sonya getting the attention whereas Dawn should have. And even to the point where it said that Sonya was anointed whereas Dawn wasn't for something that Dawn felt was her own experience and wanted the credit for it. At one point it said that the story would be released with like a credit note about donating kidneys or something like that, and it wasn't enough for Dawn at that point because then she'd already had legal fees. And then she said, "I need to get that money back so I'm going to keep pursuing this." Which is very interesting.

[Crystal] But then it's also like that desire for credit, I think disregards -- I guess I'll think "the act of stealing," right, where the story itself is -- it's -- I found it online because I think it was, oh, maybe submitted as part of a lawsuit or something, so I think there's like a government website that has it. But I think that one of like Larson's arguments was that essentially, I think, Dorland wanted credit for her work because she took this inspiration, the spark of inspiration, right? And made a whole story about that. And the kind of labor that she put into it and the creativity, right? Like, didn't it kind of become her story in some ways? And then you had somebody who wanted to take credit for, I think, Larson's work. So that kind of ping pongs back and forth too.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm. But I will say --

[Frank] It wasn't [inaudible].

[Crystal] -- I agree. Like, the tricky thing is the quoting of the actual original letter.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] And that becomes really difficult. Right? Whereas if that letter wasn't included, I think it'd be much more clearly in favor of Larson, right? Although I do feel like there were certain quotes in the article where I think Larson said like this is no different than, in terms of the letter, like reading a menu or something, or seeing something outside like on the street, a sign just at the same level.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] And that --

[Frank] Right. Like Facebook is not like a real place of copyright.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Instead, it's like a throw-away.

[Crystal] But then that, in contrast to -- so, I mean, for those who haven't read this, like there's I guess private text messages and emails that also get released. I don't know how they come upon it and stuff, and that's like very fascinating with famous authors. But in it, one of the things that she then says is that the original letter was to her friends. The original letter was too good. She couldn't -- she'd tell them like, "Well, you're a writer. Your whole thing is writing. You should have the ability and skill to change that and write it in your own words." Which I think she kind of does eventually, but I felt like those two are disconnected. You're saying that this was just a street sign, a menu, and then yet you feel like it's so good that you can't change it as a writer. You know?

[Frank] Right. Well, Sonya Larson had said, in a private email that was revealed because of the legal action between the two, that she couldn't change the words that Dawn Dorland had wrote because they were just too good, meaning for her purposes.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] But that's an interesting part of the story. It's that when you're first reading it, you know, Dawn Dorland does seem a little bit needy and like attention getting, and like she has to donate with the kidney and that's great. And then Sonya Larson's just sort of seemed like a little bit like a mean girl and maybe just sort of ambitious and like -- you know, even if she wasn't or she didn't consider Dawn her friend, she should have been like, "I'm going to change this so much that it can't be recognized by anybody because I just can't do that to somebody." But then, like you alluded to, though -- because of the legal action between the two, Sonya Larson's emails or text messages are part of the legal documents. And it is explicitly clear that she thinks Dawn is like a fool and a narcissist, and not [inaudible]. Just sort of says like, "This woman is a goldmine of information, of stuff. Like I can't -- I'd have to use this." And people responding to her, other writers who were in the workshops that Dawn and Sonya were in, Dawn thinking they were all friends and like part of the community, are just like, "Yeah, that woman is something else." Like, you know, she's all about Dawn in a lot of ways. And so that's when it -- that's when, as we were saying in at the beginning, it kicked into another gear in the story of soap opera, because you're just reading sort of like what she said she said. Then suddenly there's these text documents that are just like, well, Sonya was like, she knew what she was doing. Because at one point she says to Dawn like, "Well, I value our friendship," and the same day or the day after or before she says to another writer like, "Oh my God, this woman is too much."

[Crystal] [Laughs] That was a moment in the article, when I -- my first reading where I was like, should I be making popcorn or something because this is just kicked into high gear for me.

[Frank] Look, so when those text messages were revealed, it was pretty much like that.

[Crystal] Yeah, but look -- [ Multiple Speakers ]

[Frank] Go ahead.

[Crystal] I was -- I mean, like, you know, with Larson, yes, I agree with that kind of assessment that, like, it seemed kind of mean certain things that she was saying directly to Larson versus what she was saying of her friends. But I'm also like, I think -- I mean, if my private text messages -- I mean, like, look, I think a lot of people engage in that, right? So I can't give her too hard of a time, you know, about that. Like, it was not -- I was not a huge fan of it, but at the same time I think that to me was less of an issue than some of the stuff that came out later where, in my opinion, it really seemed like Dorland was kind of leaning really hard into this like stalking aspect of Larson that I was like, look, I said things in text messages, but I -- you know, there's a line, and my line is stalking. Right? But I was going to add to that, what you said earlier too, about like Dorland's neediness, and this is where the issue of race starts to play into it. Where, you know, Larson being a woman of color, like something that they do address in the article and I think in her story as well, is this idea of kind of resistance to that kind of neediness, right? Like resisting maybe the kind of burden of that, as like a very specific and intentional act. And so that's also very interesting to me too, where, like I think I could read it as her being a mean girl, but also kind of resisting that kind of intrusion into her life that sometimes people can take for granted that you can just do to other people, you know?

[Frank] Well, she was saying, Sonya Larson was saying -- says at one point that Dawn Dorland was doing to her exactly what her story, Sonya Larson's story, was about. That Dawn was -- kept pursuing it because she wanted the credit and attention --

[Crystal] Mm-hmm

[Frank] -- for something that Sonya Larson felt she created on her own, with inspiration from the world because that's what every writer gets. Every artist is inspired by the world around them.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm

[Frank] And so she was like she was trying to get that credit, like from a person of color. This White woman's trying to get the credit, and that's exactly what her story is about --

[Crystal] And --

[Frank] "The Kindest."

[Crystal] And I will say it's also the idea, for me when I was reading the story. So the story I'll just kind of like give a brief jump ins, like 20 pages or short. It's essentially a woman, Chantal, who I think is like on the brink of death comes back because of this organ donation and gets this letter from the donor. I think the donor's name is, I want to say Rosa, maybe. Rosa.

[Frank] Roser.

[Crystal] Rosario. Oh, Roser with R. Thank you. And she -- you know, since the letter, that's like very similar to the original one that Dawn wrote, and then asked to kind of meet her. And the story is just sort of the meeting that they have, and in that interactions the uncomfortableness of like Chantal. The way that Roser sort of maybe comes to this realization that perhaps like the act of altruism wasn't that altruistic and kind of like, you know, cries and et cetera. And these other interesting elements too where like concern that perhaps Chantal was not taking care of that kidney and other things like that. Like that kind of intrusion to her life. But it made me think of this idea of sort of these two women, two White women, Dorland, you know, and also Roser who I think was not respecting the autonomy of these like women of color. Right? You know, even after the so-called gift of this kidney you like still wanting to manage that, but it's no longer hers. It's a gift. A gift there's no strings, right? And feeling the concern that like this person was not taking care of that gift, and judging that person for it. And there's all these kind of like weird, complicated things, and it's very much from the perspective of Chantal which, you know, to me does feel like this work has really transformed, like inspiration of Dorland's life. You know? So.

[Frank] I mean -- -- there's looking through the article that I had to print and read [brief laughter], and we've mentioned some of the things. But like, what was I going to say about -- hold on, let me think. I have two thoughts that I -- I have one in my head, but I lost one. But I want to get the one I lost back because that's the first one I'll talk about. I remember years ago when Christopher Hitchens wrote a book about Mother Teresa and taking her to task for various things. And I remember thinking -- I didn't read the book and I didn't even know that much about Mother Teresa, just sort of the media representation of this wonderful woman, right? And I remember thinking, "What does it matter what her intention was?" Like, was it self-serving or she got off on being a saint, or she -- like people were saying about Dawn Dorland, like she was narcissistic in her desire to give the kidney and get attention for it or narcissistic to give the kidney. And so I was saying, "What does it matter how we get to a point of goodness if the result is beneficial?" Because if I was the -- needed a kidney and I was the recipient of Dawn Dorland's gift, I really would not care that much about why she did it. Because I'd be like, "Thank God."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] "I got a kidney." So there's that aspect. So intention, like in some ways -- because a lot of the article sort of debates her personality, Dawn Dorland, because that's sort of what Sonya Larson took to create her story. It was that aspect she saw in Dawn Dorland that was not exactly altruistic. And I figured the Mother Teresa thing is when I read that article in Christopher Hitchens' book I was like, "Well, is anyone truly 100 percent altruistic? Don't maybe part of us do something because we feel compelled to do it? Which could be, say, could be a selfish reason? That it makes us feel good --

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] -- to do something, for whatever reason." Again, our experience, and then we put this language to it. And we might say like, "I am just concerned with the recipient of this kidney and I wish them and celebrate them." Whereas if they really contemplated it they might say, "Yeah, you know, a part of me really loves the fact that I did this. I feel pretty hot that I did this." I mean, and there's nothing wrong with that to me but some people's self-conception, again language, might not allow them to acknowledge that part of themselves. But so I thought it was interesting to say that. But, again with language, I was going to say just as the -- when I was rereading it, just reading the first sentences about how a journalist -- you know, how we have to be conscious about there's someone writing this story as well and every word is chosen.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Like I just said, how we self-conceptualize is language. And that's a choice in some ways, whether we know it or not.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And it might be born of trauma, it might be born of emotion but we do, somewhere inside of us, decide how we're going to look at our lives and then give language to that. Like I'm a loser or I'm wonderful, or I'm a mix of both. Because the first line of the article is, "There is a sunny earnestness to Dawn Dorland, an unselfconscious openness that endears her to some people and that others have found to be a little extra." So when I first read it, I was like he's already, the journalist, is saying she's unself -- she has an unselfconscious openness, which is a choice to say and a judgment, and an interpretation. And right away, he's putting it to question that that so-called unselfconscious openness is not exactly read the same way by other people.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] It's not interpreted by other people as unselfconscious openness. But then he goes on to say in the next sentence, "Her friends call her a feeler, openhearted and eager, pressing to make connections with others even as, in many instances, she feels like an outsider, Dawn Dorland." So I thought immediately, if somebody had an unself-conscious openness --

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] -- and felt like an outsider, that seems oxymoronic to me.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You can't be unself-conscious about your openness if you also feel like an outsider.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] That means you're conscious of a difference in you that is not exactly in with another group of people. So it's not unself-conscious.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So I thought that was sort of a contradiction, and not intended per se, because the "she feels like an outsider" already suggests that she's got a problem with the things she conceptualizes herself as, meaning I am an empathetic person who focuses on giving and I believe everyone else is that way, but yet she feels like an outsider.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You know what I mean? That's a disconnect. And so her interpretation or description of herself should reflect that, which it tends not to.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] She seems to -- and she says it, if you go with her words as presented in this article, that because of her background of trauma and abuse, she has grown into this kind of person. So you could -- and then "it feels" means to say that she sees herself as very empathetic and caring, and very good, and she's shocked when she's criticized of other emotions because of her trauma abuse. You can't sort of deny someone that's self-conceptualization if they have suffered, to which I would say I think most of us have suffered to different degrees, of course, different experiences. But I think almost like you said before, about generational anxiety, it's like growing up is traumatic by definition no matter you have money or not. I mean, you know what I mean? There's trauma that occurs, you know? You think I'm skating on thin ice here?

[Crystal] No. No. No. No. No, I was just thinking about what you were saying about like her individual trauma that she experienced. And it seemed like to -- I think in the article if I'm not conflating it with the story which was melding together in my head. But I think she talked about the journey of like being cleared for the surgery and how important that was, like proving that she had healed from the trauma or thought she had healed from the trauma, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] I just think it's interesting because when you get to the end of that article, when you talk like she is attending these events that Larson is doing, right? And seeing that moment when like Larson's face like falls when she realizes that Dorland is there, and for Dorland, she sees it as this moment of connection. Like this weird thing that like this makes Larson feels real, but like having no conception that like I think she is honestly inflicting trauma on Larson. Right? And as somebody who clearly has gone through trauma herself and that inability to see outside of herself and what somebody else is experiencing too, to me, does speak of that narcissism. Like I think that altruism and that narcissism are two very real things that can coexist together. Like, you're right. Like, the giving of that gift, I think it is altruistic. I also think it's incredibly narcissistic too, you know? Yeah.

[Frank] You would -- you know it's, again, with the personal experience. But, you know, I don't know. I feel like it bears because you have to sort of compare. I think, articles like this, do invite sort of like, how would I behave, or what is the moral way to be? Like, I remember -- of course, it paints me in a good light of all the stories. Well, I think it does. I remember when my sister and I were going through -- like my mother died and we were going through her furniture and like all of her stuff, like the whole estate thing. And my sister lived near her when my mother died, and my sister is a doctor, so she's -- like my mother sort of in her will like said she's the executor, my sister, even though she's younger. Because I'm crazy. I'm Crazy Frank. She's like, my sister is more organized. And I remember when that -- well, I was fine with that but I could have had emotions.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Like, I know I was well loved, but I could have been like, "Well, so my mother chose my sister to be the executor. Why not me? I mean, just because they were living next to each other. I'm the older one. I'm the beloved boy." Like, -- but I was like, "Yeah, let it go." And then I remember when my sister was going through the estate, like what I wanted, what she wanted, and things like that. And because I wasn't there partly for that reason, I was also like, "I am not going to be that person who starts a fight over a chair or an extra $100. I'm not doing it." I love my sister but if -- like I know people and I know all things happen. Like if she at one point is going through the affairs and like ends up with $1,000 more than me in the end of the estate, I'm not questioning it. I'm not going to nickel and dime this, and I'm not going to -- because I made the decision this is not going to be a fight, partly, because that is about our mother and all that stuff. So it's like the choice is made in this story. It's sort of like how you make the choices about what you would let go and what you would not let go. And that's why I say there's an act, there's emotion, then there's language because then the emotion part is probably maybe the most important because you can't control the acts all the time. But the emotion is sort of like if my emotion was so big and great about this estate thing with my sister, I could have -- and justifiably let's say whoever wrote the story could have said this was justifiable if I fought her on it and said, "You're taking more, you're taking what I want, you're taking -- what is mine is mine. Mom wanted me to have it." And she could have been like, "That's not true. You didn't even live here. I lived near her, you didn't. And it could have been a thing." And some people find that justifiable and that's fair.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You make your choices. But I found it interesting when I was thinking of that story, how I -- if the point in my story is I decided.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I was like, "I am not going to have a fight with this -- about this, because I don't want it. And I trust -- I will trust her, my sister, and that's where I'm starting and ending, regardless of what may or may not happen behind the scenes, the lawyers that I'm not involved with." You know what I mean?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So -- but I could have made a scene. So I thought about that because it's sort of like on both sides it says more than once in this article that neither side would let it go.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] It became about Sonya Larson's reputation, she felt, and because of all the publicity about this story, and then it became Dawn Dorland's mission to like get the credit for this.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] It's her life.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I mean, the very -- I read you the first line of this story. The very last line is Dawn saying, "I think it saves me from villainizing Sonya. I proceed in this experience as an artist and not an adversary, learning and absorbing everything, making use of it eventually." Which the journalist chose to end the article on that line, which indicates that she doesn't want to fight with Sonya or she doesn't want to be an adversary because that's how Dawn looks at herself, as not a fighter.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] She doesn't look at herself as vindictive and she doesn't want to villainize Sonya yet she sued her three times. But then the last line, "And I will use this experience eventually," meaning she took from me what I want to use in my own work and get credit for.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I don't know.

[Crystal] And again, I have to say like -- I mean, again, through the lens of the writer of the article, it seemed like Dorland was the one that continues to not let it go because the way it presented again the last few paragraphs that, you know, Larson had like written a new story, had a baby, has seemingly moved on in a lot of ways and Dorland was the one that was kind of just showing up. You know? And [sighs] I don't know.

[Frank] I mean, I'm not going to -- well, I'm not going to characterize either one too much, but like on the other side of it, I can imagine it being a bitter pill to swallow and hurt a lot if I read those -- I read emails and text messages about me, like that Dawn read about her. I mean, Sonya Larson and her writer friends that, again, Dawn thought were her friends don't speak well of Dawn at all.

[Crystal] No. Mm-hmm.

[Frank] They make fun of her, and they think she's a joke, and they think she's a crazy narcissist. And, as we said, Dawn doesn't conceptualize herself that way. I mean, but that has got to hurt.

[Crystal] Burn, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And might light the fire for revenge or want --

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] -- want recompense, you know? Like to -- and then Sonya Larson has a baby and she's getting attention. I mean, it's made clear in the article that Sonya Larson went to a different level than Dawn Dorland, who is not a published writer.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] The novel she's working on was not published. She's written some essays, she's worked in some workshops, and Sonya Larson was getting a lot of attention. I think that aspect of it is not discussed enough in terms of their personalities because maybe the journalist didn't have access to that. But like the idea of ambition. And what do we say at the beginning of this conversation? Life is some -- is, as an animal, is sometimes getting resources to survive and those resources are money, attention, access, connection. It's what we talk about underserved people. It's what we talked about disenfranchised. It's about getting those things that other people have, and it can actually play out just as we've seen it in this article. It's that Dawn's like, "I want what she's getting."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] You know, and -- but Sonya, you know, if I read -- but just like I said before about the choices we make about I'm not going to start a fight with my sister over the estate. It's like if I read those texts about me that Dawn read about her that Sonya sent, I might have gotten a little angry. I mean maybe I wouldn't have done a public legal action, but I would've maybe like put dog poop on her doorstep or something.

[Crystal] But, again, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about that kind of idea of perception, right? Like where she perceived that this was her friend group, but clearly like it was not her friend group. They saw her a very different kind of way. I don't know. It's very interesting. That's -- yeah.

[Frank] Well, that's -- yeah. And finally, Sonya Larson's pushed to the wall and says, "I don't care about Dawn." There was a quote that says, "I don't care about Dawn."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And that's a great thing that Dawn -- that you pointed out, that Dawn said like she thought of her as a friend. That's why she emailed her and said like, "Well, you didn't mention my kidney donation."

[Crystal] I mean, what an email. [Laughs]

[Frank] That's -- that is interesting because they're both operating in, again, about getting resources and cutting your losses and not burning bridges and all those things. If Dawn really -- if Sonya really didn't care about Dawn, she was like a person in one of her workshops that she was vaguely aware of and had a couple of interactions with, she's still playing the social game. She's like, "Oh, yes, I did hear about it. Wonderful."

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] "Yeah, that's great." And then, you know, she's not just saying, "Hit the road. I don't care about you." Even though that's what she might feel like inside. We still play the social game, and we have these conceptions of how we should behave and how we also see ourselves and how we behave. So I sort of "love" that, that moment where finally Sonya says, "I don't care about Dawn."

[Crystal] And yet you wrote a whole story. You know, like it's, yeah, yeah. It's great.

[Frank] Well, she doesn't -- you know, I think she wrote the story to totally eviscerate Dawn.

[Crystal] Yes. Yes.

[Frank] Or people that she perceived are like Dawn because she really doesn't care about her.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] I mean, when you're reading -- [ Multiple Speakers ] -- like you. Hmm?

[Crystal] I was going to say so you mean care as in loves? I think I read it as more like care as in like this person is not taking up any of my thoughts, but clearly she is.

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] Like she's --

[Frank] Oh. Oh.

[Crystal] -- camped out in my brain. You know what I mean?

[Frank] Oh, I meant -- yeah, I meant like she has no --

[Crystal] Affection. Got it.

[Frank] She says in another point, Sonya Larson, that she has 20 -- she has friends that she's known for 20, 30 years and Dawn is not one of them. I mean, so she's -- she makes it clear she's not a friend and she doesn't like her personally, or she has no emotion towards her that's loving or friendly. But she was inspired by her, what she did. I mean, and thought it was great for her work and that she likes writing about people, again, who think they're one way and people perceive them another way.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Which clearly is the case, at least from those text messages that, you know, Dawn thought she was -- Dawn did what she did and everyone thought that's a lot more complicated than an altruistic so-called act.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm. And -

[Frank] Boy, is that woman needy for attention, kind of thing.

[Crystal] Yeah. And I also think because where the story and article starts, we don't really see the history that they've had in those like interactions with each other. So I do wonder if there were like other things that happened for them to kind of develop this idea of Dorland being a certain way or what. I think there's a lot that we don't see. We're only presented with this like bare kind of surface level story.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I mean, the whole Facebook, text messages, all -- I mean, I was going to say before too, like when I send emails, even if they're personal or private, I'm always conscious about it being retrieved.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And about -- and I really do tend to want to talk on the phone because I -- first of all, it's easier to communicate sometimes like with the back and forth, but I also am like, "I don't know what I want to say here. I don't know -- what I might say might not be nice and it might not be correct, so I want to talk about this." So I don't put it in.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] But back in the day, when I was young, there were certain letters that I would typewrite. Typewritten. I'm sure I said things that are just embarrassing now.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Because it [inaudible]

[Crystal] Sure.

[Frank] But I also don't -- a lot of the problems here is like also wanting to live publicly.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Like is -- which I personally, again, I don't feel an impulse towards, like you donate a kidney then you start a Facebook group about it. Like, I wouldn't do that.

[Crystal] No.

[Frank] Or send it to -- I send her the text messages, honestly, that Sonya Larson and her friends sent. I would never send it back to another person. I wouldn't be interested enough to sort of put it in writing in a text message a bad thing about the feeling -- displaying my bad feeling about another person.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] It doesn't seem worthwhile just for laughs. I mean, I don't know. Maybe when you're talking over a martini, sure. But, like we all do it, but I don't know if I would -- Again, I'm just not functional that way with technology. I don't have any desire to live my life online [laughs] as he says, having a podcast, whatever.

[Crystal] You know, I do think in the article did reference. I mean, there's some copyright issues that it does kind of go more into detail about with the lawyers and what's copyrightable, and what's not. And I forget was it -- which author maybe like made some court case about their letters and whether or not they could be quoted because it was their original work and whatnot. But I do think that the fact that she posted it on Facebook, which is kind of public even though I guess it was a private group --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] -- you know, does again complicate that issue too. Because at what point is this kind of public property because you put it out there? It was not like a private letter, you know, versus I would say perhaps Larson's messages with each other, with her friend group. Those were private correspondence and then were made public. So, yeah. You disappeared for a bit [laughs].

[Frank] I have? [inaudible]. I'm sorry.

[Crystal] Were you about to do an ASMR thing for me, maybe?

[Frank] Don't worry. I understand.

[Crystal] Is that why you uncovered the camera?

[Frank] Thank you ASMR. I know.

[Crystal] I know. You do -- what's the next thing that we're going to do?

[Frank] Oh.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] Well, our producer, who's a lovely genius, we were talking before you popped on, Crystal, about reading a book. Well, each of us will read a book. You know, the weather's changing. It's definitely getting chillier. A whole lot of holidays are approaching. Well, like read a -- both of us read a book that we find cozy.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Or we would determine as cozy. I think that could be interesting because I think that also begs language, what cozy is. What is cozy to oneself, to you and me? So, Crystal, read a book --

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] -- that you would -- that's cozy to you, that makes you cozy, that you would determine as a cozy book. Cozy, cozy, cozy [multiple speakers] --

[Crystal] You've said that word so much it's lost all meaning. [laughs] I know, now that you [inaudible].

[Frank] And I will do the same. And if you can see it in your heart.

[Crystal] Aha.

[Frank] Are you there?

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] To actually prepare a short passage to read from that book to me --

[Crystal] Uh-huh.

[Frank] -- so I could possibly guess the book, or guess what kind of book, or guess literally I would love it. And I'll do the same for you. But if you forget or mess up, I won't have any emotions about it because I've decided not to confuse things.

[Crystal] [brief laughter] I will take every thing you say under advisements, and I will deeply consider it over the next two weeks, and we will see what happens.

[Frank] Thank you my darling. Thank you for deeply considering a very direct, straightforward request. But anyway, ASMR me.

[Crystal] Okay. Wait. Oh, I turned my camera off. I don't know where the mic is on this laptop so --

[Frank] Hmm.

[Crystal] Can you hear it?

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Crystal] [laughter] You have the most bored expression on your face. I love it.

[Frank] Oh, I'm listening. [ Background Sounds ]

[Frank] You know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like a little plastic stapler.

[Crystal] Well. [ Background Sounds ]

[Frank] Or a little -- a plastic and metal staple remover. You know those clicky clawed things that you could remove a staple? It's something that has a hinge that snaps, like false teeth shattering.

[Crystal] You know what?

[Frank] Say it.

[Crystal] There is a hinge.

[Frank] That's a stapler. All right, there is a hinge.

[Crystal] Uh-huh.

[Frank] Like a, I don't know, nail clipper. What is it?

[Crystal] [brief laughter] It's --

[Frank] It's plastic though. I know it's plastic.

[Crystal] It's a Lego. It's a Lego Thanos [laughter]. I just found it in the office. But like the arms have a little hinge, so you were not right but kind of [brief laughter]. [Frank] Well, how would I possibly go, "Oh, that's a Lego Thanos?" How would I know?

[Crystal] I don't know. You've guessed other things before.

[Frank] I think that's where your problem is. That's not what the guessing game is about [brief laughter]. See actually, well your ASMR thing is like the guessing game to me because it's not only about guessing exactly what it is. It's about guessing enough details about it that I'm in the appropriate sphere. You know what I mean? So what -- the hinge thing is important to me.

[Crystal] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Like that I got that because that's actually hearing the hinge move back and forth is important.

[Crystal] I mean, I love that moving the hinge but okay, yes.

[Frank] Oh. Oh, then that is important. Then that matters because then that --

[Crystal] It's cute, right?

[Frank] You know what? I want to go. I really want to go.

[Crystal] Okay. I'm going to send the picture to you just in sec here.

[Frank] [laughter] Volatility, the story of Crystal and Frank. What? What were you playing? Show me quickly. What were you actually clicking and moving?

[Crystal] It was -- I showed you. I've been showing you this entire time.

[Frank] Show me again.

[Crystal] Look, it's a Lego --

[Frank] I was unaware.

[Crystal] -- Thanos.

[Frank] No, I know. But what piece was making that noise?

[Crystal] Oh. It's these little arms. It's these little arms. I actually have no idea who made this. It was just on my desk. Oh, I broke it. Uh-oh.

[Frank] So you were using the hinge [multiple speakers].

[Crystal] No, only -- Oh, you know what? I'm -- this is falling apart before my very eyes.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] Be quiet. [ Laughter ]

[Frank] No, this one was terrible. All right, everybody. Thank you for listening.

[Crystal] Oh, there, I fixed it.

[Frank] You still realize after all this, if nothing, we take you on an emotional journey.

[Crystal] That's you, champ.

[Frank] Some pleasant laughter to deep seated wounds, which actually thicker than the article we read. It's about the human experience, thank you. So everybody out there, read a cozy book that you think is cozy. Hey, yeah, read a cozy book and then when we discuss what we've read the next time, comment to us what that cozy book was. Oh, and we could put together a book list of cozy reads.

[Crystal] Oh, that's good. Yeah.

[Frank] Because, once again, what's cozy to one is not cozy to another, and I'd love to see what people interpret cozy as. So thank you everybody for listening and we'll see you next or hear you next time, or feel you next time --

[Crystal] No, no, not feel.

[Frank] -- we just hang out [inaudible] We just hope what? We just hope everyone is here the next time. Bye, Crystal.

[Crystal] Bye.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.