Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In!

Hellooooo! Frank and Crystal chose their own books this week—don't forget to scroll down to see what our book club pick for next week is. 

Before they jumped into their reads, Frank and Crystal reflected on NYPL libraries being open again after COVID, and how the experience has affected patrons. They take a moment to reflect on missing out on missed milestones of their patrons. 

Frank's book pick this week was:

Let's Get Back to the Partyby Zak Salih

Reconnecting with a childhood friend in the weeks after the Supreme Court marriage equality ruling, an art history teacher observes the contrast between his own closeted youth and the open relationships of a younger generation. (Publisher summary.)

 

 

 

 

Crystal went for a dystopian sci-fi read...

Trail of Lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse

When a small town needs her help in finding a missing girl, Maggie Hoskie, a Dinâetah monster hunter, reluctantly enlists the help of an unconventional medicine man to uncover the terrifying truth behind the disappearanceand her own past. (Publisher summary.)

 

 

 

 

 Were you able to guess Crystal's ASMR object this week? (And does anyone know what it's actually called?!)

Don't forget to check out of your library forr next month's book club pick. We're breaking with our recent track record of military books and magical cats to read...

The Meaning of Mariah Carey by Mariah Carey (with Michaela Angela Davis)

The global icon, award-winning singer, songwriter, producer, actress, mother, daughter, sister, storyteller, and artist tells the unfiltered story of her life. (Publisher summary.)

 

 

 

 

 

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, everybody. Hello, everybody and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I am Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] Hi, Crystal.

[Crystal] Hi.

[Frank] Your sound is good. Thank you.

[Crystal] Oh, good, good. Always the eternal struggle every time.

[Frank] The eternal technology struggle.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] I'm thinking, you know, we'll be in person at some point in the relatively near future.

[Crystal] Maybe. Yeah.

[Frank] I was saying before you bumped on that the new Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library, which was once the Mid-Manhattan Library, basically the biggest circulating library in the New York Public Library's system, across the street from the library with the lions, just reopened and I happened to visit there, and they have a recording studio.

[Crystal] Oh, nice.

[Frank] Yeah, two of them, I believe. One for young adult and one for adults. So I feel like we should do it there.

[Crystal] I did hear about your visits to the library. I have my spies there.

[Frank] I love the gossip grapevine! I actually walked in on a magical mission. I was getting a book parenthetically for a patron, long story. But, and I saw, you know, the head of the library there giving a tour with people I knew. And they were like, "Frank, Frank!" and I was like, "Oh!" so I joined the tour. Who did you hear this from?

[Crystal] I can't tell you my sources.

[Frank] I know who it was, I think. I love that you knew about this. Oh my god.

[Crystal] Instantly. That's how quickly the grapevine moves here.

[Frank] What did they sound like? "I saw Frank. It was like a legend visiting us." And I'm sure they raved about me.

[Crystal] Did you have a chance to go to the--Is it the seventh floor that has that outdoor seating area?

[Frank] Yeah. I did.

[Crystal] That seems really nice.

[Frank] You know, yeah, the library is--it's I was--I didn't know what to expect. What I like about it is that it's architecturally clean. It's not like Jefferson Market like old Gothic building. But what it, the ultimate effect is not so much the architecture, is what's in it, the books.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I really liked that about it, like that it became about the journey to find a book rather than like, look at the splendid architecture. It's certainly an improvement from the old Mid-Manhattan, I have to say. It did seem like a sort of lovely place to discover.

[Crystal] I haven't had a chance to go inside yet. But I've seen those trailers. I think there was a trailer that had like the drone that went in through the building. It was pretty cool. From what I've seen of it, I think the teen space looks amazing. They have a lot of different little, like, rooms, technology areas to do [inaudible].

[Frank] You're chopping up.

[Crystal] I'm sorry. Is it better?

[Frank] Yeah, just project, darling. [Laughter]

[Crystal] If I can move this computer closer to me.

[Frank] Pretend you're auditioning for an episode of Glee, and project like, "I'm Crystal. I'm going to sing What I Did for Love from A Chorus Line."

[Crystal] Oh boy.

[Frank] [Singing] What I did for love.

[Crystal] I think that's the opposite of what I naturally do. I get more and more soft spoken, but I will try to speak more loudly with our mic situation.

[Frank] Well, I know you're the ASMR Queen, and you want to sort of be breathy and hoo-ha.

[Crystal] Breathy?

[Frank] You can do that later. Breathy and hoo-ha. So anyway, the SNFL, Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library is open. And I hope that maybe we'll base our headquarters there for The Librarian Is In podcast. So, and libraries now are fully open.

[Crystal] Yes, today, so we been very busy with setting up in the morning. Now obviously, it's 11, so [inaudible]. If you hear the screaming, that's why.

[Frank] I know. It'll be interesting. You know, I had an interesting experience. I don't know how to say this. But like, literally on the way here today.

[Crystal] [Whispering] Say it.

[Frank] [Laughter] Sorry, there may be construction happening in the background again. I think my days are numbered doing it here, I may have to find a new place. Parenthetically, I'm all over the place these days in different libraries. But anyway I was walking to Jefferson Market, and, you know, unfortunately, I see more of this on the street, people asking for change and sort of civic living on the street. But this guy who was asking for change, I didn't recognize, but I walked by, and he said, "Hey! Hey! When's the library open?" And I looked at him, and I just said, "September, probably," like Jefferson Market, we were right across the street from it. He went, "Oh, darn it." And I was like, "Oh, I can't--." Well, first, of course, self-centeredly, I was like, "I'm so well known. I'm a star." Like he knew who I was. I did not recognize him. And I was like, "That was so interesting. Maybe seeing me go in and out of the building?"

[Crystal] Maybe.

[Frank] And then I thought, "Oh, people need libraries."

[Crystal] Yes, I had an interesting experience a couple of days ago, maybe last week. And I had one of my, like, teen regulars from, like, over a year ago. He came in, and he is now 18. So he's been sitting in the adult area. And it was so good to like, catch up with him. He has like a twin. He's now like, going to start college in the fall. And it just, it was like kind of tough to realize that you've kind of missed out on a whole year of these kids' lives. Like, you know, I wasn't there. I mean, I you know, I'm not like a family member or whatever. But you know, when they get into school, that's really exciting. Like you want to support them, but to know that they went through all that you kind of stayed as a bystander [inaudible]. It was kind of sad, but was also like, so great to see him and so great to hear that, like his family was doing well. He was doing well. And that like life was moving on. But you know, it was very bittersweet, I think, yeah.

[Frank] Reopening and seeing people again.

[Crystal] Yeah. And the kids like they grow, they just look so different as they get older. And you're just like, "Oh, my gosh, a year's passed, you look so different." It's awesome. But you know, it feels wild. Yeah.

[Frank] I mean, I just having a conversation on the street yesterday with a library regular actually, about when Jefferson Market's opening again, but just also the realization like, because there's lots of talk of lots of things about what's going to happen in the future and stuff. And I said, like, we're living, literally living through history right now. We're in the middle of it. Or at the end of it, or the beginning of it, or we don't know. The whole point is that, you know, like when I said we're reopening and said, well, there's a variant. And I was like, you know, you have to make the best decisions you can make. I mean, that's what being an adult is. And it's just like, we don't know. So it's that in 20 years, or 30 years, or whatever many years, they'll tell the story of this time. And it will be clearer then, of course, because there'll be a beginning, middle and somewhat of an end. Now we're still in the middle of it. And that's the weirdest thing, I think, for most of us in some ways that we think about it, that we can't, we want to say, "Oh, by September," or, "Oh, by--," or like these goals and deadlines and that we're used to having. And now we can just sort of say, "Well, let's just live it for today, and do the best we can, and make the best choices." Make good choices, try to. I think the library has been great. So it's time to fully reopen. And if we have to pull back, we'll have a pull back. I mean, you know?

[Crystal] Yeah, I think we do have to be really flexible during this time, which is not the easiest thing for me. Like, I feel like I'm somebody who's a little like, stuck sometimes. I'm just like, I don't like change to happen so quickly. And it is happening very quickly. And we're getting used to that. But hopefully, things will settle down, and things will feel a bit more stable and more certain, but I don't know how long that's going to take.

[Frank] I think the key word there is feel. It'll feel more stable, which doesn't mean it's stable.

[Crystal] Yeah. It just means it will feel more stable.

[Frank] Yeah. And it's like, you know, a lot of the conversations we've been having at work, it's like, you know, we're getting back to normal, we're getting back to normal. It's just like is this normal? I don't know, like, what is normal anymore? Who's to say?

[Frank] Who's to say, I actually want to-every time I hear that. I mean, I think I just naturally get resistant to certain proclamations, but as a personality thing, but whenever I hear get back to normal, I'm like what's normal? Well, I don't even know what normal is. There's no such thing as normal. It's normal. What's happening now is more normal. I mean, it's what is happening. So it's like, and I also feel like getting back to something I'd almost like to be transformed. Actually there's a great quote from the book I read, just coincidentally, that said, "Experience without transformation is just killing time." So in a way, what I was about to say, which was perfectly illuminated by that quote, is that the experience should transform us. And hopefully this thing is for better. I mean, rather than going backwards in something, let's be transformed into something better and more exciting.

[Crystal] But are, is-I--that's, I don't know. Because I feel like my transformation, somebody who has made me more fearful and more worried, right? So I don't know if it's for better. Maybe we could argue that we've become more resilient, but I also kind of hate that word, because that just means that you had like, deal with a lot. And, you know, so I don't know.

[Frank] I know, I guess it's, it's, you know, disastrous or catastrophic, in that, you know, catastrophic things happen. And we don't know when they're going to happen. It just happens sometimes, unfortunately. We, you know, we just, I see what you mean. I mean, this is a very good example of what I talked about a lot in the podcast about personalities and how we deal with things. And, you know, there's no right or wrong, it's, how each of us perceives what's happening to us, and the language we give to it, and then what it is for us, and divining our feelings to see what we feel about what's happening. Like, you just put it perfectly like, you know, and the transformation has been made us more scared. And the transformation for me has made me more like, ha-ha, life sucks! Ha-ha. I was right all along. So I'm vindicated.

[Crystal] But I will say the good parts in terms of the transformation is that I think there's different kinds of sense of community that's been happening too, like in digital spaces and having to sort of search that out because you couldn't physically be in spaces anymore. And so the sort of friendships I've developed during this time has been new and kind of great and different communities I'm a part of. But that's really good. So it's not been all terrible, I will say, but you know.

[Frank] Well, I do want that in person. excitement. I mean, again, just the other day, again, another little story. I was coming out of the library, which you know, is under construction. And a guy across the street was walking opposite me, and he just sort of yelled across the street, like, When, so when are you--when is all that opening?" And he gestured to the Jefferson Market. And I said, you know, "September, October, like it should be done by September, cleanup, get ready, go back by October." And he was like, "Oh, okay," and I just sort of kept going, then kept walking. And I think I said something like, "Thanks for asking." And I just, I literally got teary eyed.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] I didn't know why. And then I realized it was just contact with a person who was, I guess, wanting something that I could provide. And, and it just felt like that, that--I mean, literally, that minor exchange was electrical to me in a way, because it was connection with something I guess, we both care about. And I missed that.

[Crystal] Yeah. And I also think, for a lot of people, libraries, it is that sort of barometer for what is a return to normalcy? Like it's not normal for libraries to be closed, you know, and to see that, like, libraries are reopening, and people come in and sit and do things that they used to be able to do, I think is a very reassuring thing for people.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] I think that's why people are looking for that and checking in on the library. Like what's happening?

[Frank] I guess onward, onward. To be determined. We shall see, but so far so good. Reopening. So books, right.

[Crystal] Oh, yeah. [Laughter]

[Frank] Get where we're going. It's for books, books, books. What, what?

[Crystal] No, no, nothing. It's just like, I feel like it was such a heavy conversation, but now we're going to shift to books.

[Frank] Heavy. Yeah. Yeah, so what? Do you want me to talk?

[Crystal] Sure.

[Frank] Talk. Crystal always closes the show.

[Crystal] Pardon me? I'm a little froggy. Well, I was doing what I love doing. I was literally just looking at the shelves at Battery Park City which is the library I'm at currently. And I had originally to look for something to read, and I originally had planted myself in front of the classic section because at times I've said is a through line for me. Like the past year or so, I've been wanting to read classes, just go backwards in a way, and dig into stuff I'd never read to see what all the hubbub was about. So I did that, and I picked out a book. I won't say which because I might read it and talk about it later. But it's by E.M. Forster, but then I was at Battery Park City, and I was looking at the new book section and I saw this book that another library put on display, and it's called Let's Get Back to the Party, by Zak Salih, S-a-l-i-h. And I, from the display, I was like, let's get back to the party. And then there was sort of like a face behind the print of the of the cover, if you can see it.

[Crystal] Oh, nice.

[Frank] And to me, I first thought oh! It suddenly reminded me of, I'm thinking of Ending Things, by Ian Reed. Do you know that book? I've talked about it on the podcast because I love it. It's scary and well-written and psychologically exciting. So I sort of like the--I guess, I think I like these titles that have that have an "I" in it or just like a sort of pronouncement like, I'm thinking of ending things, let's get back to the party. And somehow it seemed ominous, like a scary book, like let's get back to the party, and with the sort of face behind the text. So I picked it up, and I was like, alright, you know, let's just sight unseen. I'm a browser in the library, and I'm going to take this book and read it. And it is not a horror book. It is not scary. It is not--it's psychological. But what it is, is is picking up the theme we've been talking about this month, which is gay time, gay boys, gay, gay, gay. So and then you look closer at the face behind Let's Get Back to the Party, and the guy's face is like crying glitter. Again with glitter, when you really look closely, so it's not like ominous even though it struck me as ominous. It's more like, well, it's not ominous, but it's also not happy-go-lucky. So Let's Get Back to the Party, by Zak Salih. Can you hear noise?

[Crystal] A little bit, yes.

[Frank] Is it disturbing? Well, I guess the producer hasn't intruded. So I guess it's okay.

[Crystal] I'm assuming it's just ghosts.

[Frank] It's just go ghosts wandering.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] So this book, it's interesting. It's, which I didn't know what it was about when I picked it up. And I found out, but I, of course kept going with it because I think the writing is good. It's sort of this. What it really can be said is there's two characters, Oscar, and Sebastian, and they're, they were friends as little kids and then lost touch with each other for years. And now as the novel unfolds, they're in their mid-30s. And basically, what it seems like is happening here is that the author, Zak, is writing about gay history through these two 30-something characters by one, sort of looking backwards at the '70s and sort of gay history, pre-AIDS, and this sort of hedonistic revelry that that was, and the other, Sebastian, looking at the youth of today and how much better he sees they have it in terms of like, they can go with another same-sex partner to the prom, they can wear the flag, the pride flag, they can. There's PrEP, which is, you know, an antiviral for AIDS. So there's like, all these things that the youth can do that he felt like he couldn't do, like he couldn't come out right away, whereas like, 14-, 15-, 16-year-olds are coming out in high school and being accepted. So each character like the Oscar, sort of meets this much older, little older than me, actually. But like, man who wrote about the '70s and the sex he had and the crazy times and the sort of like hedonistic, like I said, you know, debauchery. And Oscar really admires that, and feels like this, this, you know, trend toward--well, I should say that the book opens with in 2015, with gay marriage legalized, and how Sebastian loves that and feels like great, he can find a guy and settle down and have the kids and the house in suburbia. And Oscar is furious by it because he sees it as a heteronormative push to be like everybody else rather than this sort of like rebellious '70s, where the act of just having sex with the same sex was a rebellion, or at least he thinks so. And he admires that. So as I said, Oscar looks, is looking at this older writer he met and admires him for his like crazy, hedonistic, rebellious youth. And Sebastian, who's a teacher, an art teacher, is looking at his students and the gay students in the same way, that they have it so well. They can have boyfriends and girlfriends and be out in high school and how accepted they are. At least in some high schools, I guess so. And then how these two, like I said, they were friends as kids, and then don't see each other for years, and then reconnect at some point in the book, and each chapter is each other's voice. So one chapter's Sebastian, the other is Oscar. So that's the basic premise. But, and I really, like I said, I think it's this author's intent to show the collision of identities of what like the historical gay identity was versus what achievements have been made now, and how they manifest. It's basically an inquiry into like, what kind of gay are you? Like, who do you want to be? Like, what's your identity? And it's written in the first person because it's all about identity. And it's not about coming out, per se, but it's like, I think the author wants to show what it's like to come into a community. And I find that really interesting, because it's like, first of all, it's the assumption that you have to or should want to come into any community at all. And then if you do, like, what is community? Like, I always, always like, whenever I hear like, oh, the gay community or the black community, like I always say, what is that exactly? It's people that share, I guess, some characteristics, but like, ultimately, what is a community? A lot is made in the book about there's community will have its own language. Like, he goes into depth about all the different terms that gay people, at least in his book, this book, use for different people. Like oh, I tricked last night, or that guy's a chicken hawk, and all these terms that are like terms specific to a community. And it's like, so communities developed language to define their parameters, their values. And I guess, you know, Sebastian, wanting to enter the community of today, like get married, have a life, have a married suburban life. And Oscar is sort of rejecting that, but wants to go stay in that like, crazy late-night leather bar excitement, kind of thing. And it's sort of it's, it does take these two extreme tropes and doesn't have a lot of middle ground in the book, which I thought was interesting, and sometimes frustrating. But it kept me going to keep reading it because I was like, well, there are people that are not just one or the other, hedonism versus suburban living. I mean, it's not just that, but I, you know what occurred to me, I have to say, in this book is that it seems like relationships. This is, well, it's probably not new. But relationships are capitalism in a way, because it's like, the aspiration for a relationship, it's almost seems like that relationship is really, truly defined by like, oh, you get the house, you get the car, you get the kids, you get the--and then when you meet your friends, you say, "Oh, yes, we're going to Hawaii, we're going to this date, this preschool." And it's all about the things that you can afford and get, and there that enshrines and solidifies and proves the relationship. So it's like, Yes, I am a fully--you know what I mean? So it's like, it's almost like we're just people trying to find love or connection or companionship, and then the society around us starts monetizing that in a way. And then the media picks up on that as a norm. Because I was wondering, like, what does heteronormative mean? And it almost seems like heteronormative means something that's marketable. But you can market it and therefore then aspire to it, like, 0h, you should get married. I mean, the marriage thing is almost like, in a real way, you have to attain rights as anyone else has before you can reject that. Like you, you should, gay people should be able to be married, and then they should be able to also say, "I don't want it." But to have it means you're, there's more of an equality there. But that heteronormative thing is like, it's like, if you can aspire to it and afford it, then you are part of it. Like you can get it. You know what I mean? Am I making sense there?

[Crystal] Yeah, I mean, what you're saying makes me think a little bit about like, how, I guess how much capitalism is sort of ingrained to our society? And how, like, everything seems so [inaudible] on that, and how, like, what you're saying about these relationships. There's all of these monetary markers that defines it, you know?

[Frank] Yeah. What?

[Crystal] I said, "Can you hear me," because you're touching your ears. I can't tell if you can hear me or not.

[Frank] Now I can. No, I heard you before.

[Crystal] [Laughter] Okay.

[Frank] I'm going to have to get you singing lessons. So you can learn how to sing a song to the back row.

[Crystal] Or you could just buy me a mic. That would be cheaper.

[Frank] Get some equipment. Well, we're going to be in a very glamorous studio, hopefully, at the main library, but.

[Crystal] Okay. But I have enemies there.

[Frank] You have enemies?

[Crystal] Just kidding.

[Frank] Oh, no. So anyway, like, because, you know, we all know that real life is far messier than just the sort of tent poles of what we think we want. Like, you know, when we say we want this career, we want this relationship, you know, that's a motivating factor. And it is, it satisfies real needs. But when we are actually in it, we realize it's a lot messier. Like you've got the career you want, you're like, "Oh, I see the downsides. I see the stress," and you get the relationship you want, like, "Oh, I see the trauma, I see the struggle, I see the abuse, you know, that could occur." I mean, it's a lot messier. But so that's why when I was reading it, I was just like, you know, this standard set in this book, or like, you know, one or the other. And again, you know, that the idea, and this is, this is another interesting factor about men. And I've certainly talked about this before, men have--sex being such a motivating factor in men's lives. And of course, it's a motivating factor in everyone's lives, regardless of gender. But it's been said, for a long time, like, you know, men, gay men, without the mitigating factor of a woman, and you can tell me if this is, whatever it is--can go wild, basically, because there is no sort of restraining factor that a woman's so-called brings to a relationship like, which is not to say there's no, there's not a sexual thing there. But that clearly, you know, like the '70s were indicated by this book and by history. It was like, and resulted in, you know, disease. I mean, just a rampant spread of it. Because there was just an unbridled celebration of that sexuality. Then that gets into what gender you know, male-female sexual roles are or-

[Crystal] As described by society.

[Frank] That's a whole other conversation. I mean, that's huge. Because there's natural biological doodilly-dah, and then there's societal expectation that modifies behavior. That's a whole other story. So like I said, the writing in this book, let's get back to the plot, is quite, there's some great just I like, like, he just, like, for example, just I like his writing. Like, he caught like, just how he refers like in the locker in the high school that Sebastian teaches, and he refers to the metal gills of the locker. And somehow I love that like the metal gills, like, as if the locker is like a living, breathing thing with a life inside of it. And he said, another time he says something like, you know, people were lined up waiting, like placid cows. And just sort of the term placid cows was, was a provocative. Another time he talks about just the daily life in a high school amongst the students. And he refers to the bloodless violence of the high school hallways, which of course, you know, unfortunately, bloodiness can happen, but like I, it's mostly like just the stress of high school, the fear of other kids, the bullying. Yes, the bloodless violence of high school hallways. So the guy right, the guy can write, and I underlined some notes here. Oh, well, that's let's see, just some thought--I talked about the marketability of relationships. And I'd said the quote before with your experience, that transformation is just killing time. But the two other things were- Oh, that Sebastian's looking at a, I guess like an app on his phone. That's like Grindr, but it's called Cruise in the book, and how he, you know, will post something, and then get a lot of response. And he's thrilled because it's like, sexual affirmation of desirability, and he's, but he's too scared to really respond. And then, you know, he'll put the phone down and then check it later. And there's so many responses that it's, he says, it's enough to drive one mad and he wonders, how does Oscar, who lives for that kind of thing, handle it? And sort of that showed the personalities of Oscar and Sebastian as like the sort of romance or, versus sex, finding meaning in and I use the word romance in so many different ways. But like, I mean, [inaudible]. You know, Sebastian is also an art teacher, and a lot has made in the book about talking about different famous paintings and which I love. He's looking for a more so-called elevated, meaningful expression of sex and love. And, you know, Oscar thrives in this sort of, like, down and dirty, like, you know, it's just sex kind of thing. And so that shows the difference between the two of them. And it's just like, interesting when you say, it's just words that that put, one puts words to their feelings. And that then guides the next step of your relationship with yourself and with other people. It's interesting how that-you know what I mean? Like, you feel something like let's say Oscar is feeling he's like, all about this sex thing. And he's like, it's only once. His language becomes oriented towards that. And that manifests, and that reifies and manifests his desire for that, and it keeps going that way. I find that really interesting about language, how that can lead-I've talked about this before, too, how it defines your experience. And then one of the things he just says is, when is one Oscar, Sebastian, at one point, says to himself, "Yes, I'm crazy," like, because Oscar calls him that. And Sebastian says, like, "Yeah, I'm crazy." And it made me think of like, when is one crazy? When does one person say that they are crazy? And it struck me that it's when your own, your perceived mess, like the mess you think is inside you, when that spills out, and becomes public, I think we're so shocked by that, that we call ourselves crazy. Because we're not ready for it to come out, or to be seen. And Oscar calls Sebastian crazy, because Sebastian is vulnerable at a moment and lets it out, lets something out. And he said, I thought it's just like when you do something that you're not ready, or haven't put into language, or haven't verbalized yourself, when that comes out, you're like oh, my God, I was crazy last night, because I revealed something. And I feel shocked and horrified and not ready to own it. I don't know what I just said, but I just talked a lot. So hey, so that was Let's Get Back to the Party, by Zak Salih, who's actually half Arab, and the character of Sebastian is also half Arab. And that plays a little bit, but actually his, that identity, the Muslim identity is not something that becomes a thing besides illuminating, actually some of the practices in our countries against gay people. But it's not a motivating factor in in Sebastian's life, per se. His race, or his ethnicity is just a thing, another component of him. Are you bored to death? Did I bore you to death?

[Crystal] No, I have a question.

[Frank] I have a question.

[Crystal] I was patiently waiting for my question. So you mentioned in the beginning that, like the way the book is set up, it has the two different viewpoints. And that's something I see a lot in like young adult literature, and one of my personal pet peeves is sometimes when you do have these two different viewpoints, the way they're sometimes don't read as different people. So my question is, do you really feel like in this book, the two characters read differently?

[Frank] That's a great question, and a great comment because I felt the same way, too. And sometimes you have to be like, wait a minute. Who am I reading? It's the same literate voice.

[Crystal] Yeah.

[Frank] It's not an attempt to truly change voices. Like some authors who do. What is really changed is the form. Like Oscar's chapters are shorter paragraphs, shorter sentences. [Inaudible] sort of a little more [inaudible]. And Sebastian's can go on because he's a lot more thoughtful and a lot more introspective. So you can tell the difference. But I thought of that as I was reading it, too. It's like the voices. I thought of it not in a pejorative or in a positive. I was just thinking, how does one, how is this author doing it? I thought, oh, he's doing it really more that way than trying to change his voice. He's, he's keeping the same literate voice. And you could tell the author's probably more of a Sebastian than an Oscar. But yeah, that's a good question. I mean, have you read books where the authorial voice is radically different and effectively, so?

[Crystal] Not-

[Frank] --in YA, or is it usually?

[Crystal] I mean, there are cases, like if you, there's from maybe last year, We Are Not Free, by Traci Chee is a really great one that talks about the Japanese incarceration, and it has like 13 characters. Each chapter pretty much is focused on a different character's point of view. And I think she does it really effectively. Then there are other ones I've read, where I have to constantly keep going back and looking at the name of each. They have the name for-

[Frank] Yeah, same with this book. Yeah.

[Crystal] Yeah. And if, if I have to constantly refer to that, to know where I am with the character, then that to me says like, okay, maybe there should have been a little bit more. If that's less of a concern, I'm like okay, I think it's written well enough that I don't have to constantly reference that. But I do see it done very often in YA literature, and sometimes, without a lot of like thought. But you know, that's fine. [Inaudible]

[Frank] Oh, interesting. It's, I mean, it's definitely--the book, you know, moves. It definitely, though, feels like and I think it's not trying to hide it, that it's trying to get two different viewpoints. Maybe that's why he wants to do two, like, get two different, radically different, extreme viewpoints, and see how they can coexist together, or how they modify each other or change each other. And that's the story of this book, like Oscar and Sebastian, collide in a way again, after being childhood friends, and the tension is to see will one mitigate the other? Will one soften up the other? Will one convince the other, or will they not? Will they completely diverge? And it does end slightly startlingly in a way, but not unhopefully. Interesting. Anyway.

[Crystal] I do like the fact that you said that the forms of the writing change, and it did remind me I think the author is David Elliott, I want to say, and he writes, I think books in verse for teens, and one was called Bull.

[Frank] I love that book!

[Crystal] You scared me!

[Frank] I'm sorry. I discussed this book, and I thought you were going to say Bull, and I thought [inaudible]. That was a great book.

[Crystal] Yeah. And I loved it. It's a teen book. It was on [inaudible] for teens. And I really appreciate on the back how he wrote about doing all this research. And so he had a lot of characters who had different form, like the couplets or about like, brief poetry, but it was very intentional, you know. And so that was, that was really great. And it seems like your author's doing something kind of similar to that which I accept, you know.

[Frank] Which I accept.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] David, David Elliot? That's the author?

[Crystal] Let me Google it.

[Frank] I know. I remember the name Bull. But when you said the author name, it connected. Yeah, he also tries to teach teens and anyone really about poetry, which is all in a very sort of, you know, fun way, I thought, and that's about the Minotaur.

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] And the labyrinth. Yes. Yeah. It's really good. [Inaudible]

[Crystal] I remember, I think in our discussions, we talked about how it has this kind of Hamilton like the Broadway show vibe, where even though it's set in mythological times or whatever, the language is very modern.

[Frank] It's very colloquial, yeah.

[Crystal] Yes, colloquial.

[Frank] Which of course, they would have spoken in their own colloquialisms anyway.

[Crystal] Yeah, yeah.

[Frank] You know, sometimes that can be like not as effective, but in that book, it worked fine. It worked great. Oh, I mean, I love-I'm sorry if I blasted anyone's ears, I clapped so hard.

[Crystal] Your hands were a blur on the screen. They were moving so fast. Yeah.

[Frank] I love when you bring up, when you say books that I've read and liked. It makes me feel connected to you. Now I'm rubbing my head. Hot day today, so what actually did you read? [Inaudible]

[Crystal] So I read a Trail of Lightning, by Rebecca Roanhorse, and so I just picked it up. I was like, okay, let me read a fantasy. This is a little bit--it's definitely fantasy. I would say maybe a little bit sci-fi, because it's set in a dystopian future. It's still within our century, but climate change has happened. There's been like earthquakes. Part of North America, I think is like submerged or destroyed because of it. [Inaudible] The bad parts, I know. [Laughter] So it is this post-apocalyptic landscape. You know what was really weird was like how much this [inaudible] be monstrous, as I was reading, and I was like, it was not intentional at all, but there were certainly similarities to-

[Frank] That was a book you read last time.

[Crystal] Yeah, the comic book and I guess you would call it prose, right?

[Crystal] Well, it's interesting, like how, like, I picked this book up, and I thought it was like a scary psychological thriller, and it's like, it was continuing the gay relationship thing, which I didn't even know. Maybe the glitter subconsciously. But it's interesting when we read on a theme sometimes, even without knowing we're going to be doing that.

[Crystal] Or maybe it is something where those books are still in our heads. And so we're kind of like pulling out those similar aspects of it. And maybe that's why, because I was like, still thinking about that book. What was I going to say about this book? Oh, so. So essentially, it follows this monster slayer named Maggie Husky, who is Navajo [inaudible]. She has also a lot of people at this point in the future, have developed clan powers. So these are kind of like linked to their ancestral tribes. Her clan power is the ability to move very fast and maybe kill very well.

[Frank] It is clan power?

[Crystal] That's what they call it.

[Frank] They all share that power?

[Crystal] I think different people. I don't think everybody has it, but certain people, so she has it and I do feel like, even though I would say this is probably in our adult collection, there are elements of this book that feels very YA fantasy, which is the Chosen One kind of book, in some ways, having these like powers that manifest. And like the book opens up with her being tasked to search for a missing girl. And she--this is like the opening scene. She finds the girl. There's this like monster that's essentially like gnawing on her neck. She has to kill the monster, and unfortunately has the other girl as well. It's more gruesome than I thought it was going to be. I think it leans a little bit into horror. I don't think it's entirely like in the horror genre, but it's a little more intense than I'm used to, which is fine. So horror fans I think may enjoy it. And you know, so she kind of takes a monster head back with her to this local medicine man, Tah. And talking with Tah, she discovers that maybe there is somebody or something that is very powerful that is creating these monsters. And with Tah's grandson Kai, she kind of goes on this journey to figure out who's creating these monsters and to destroy that person or thing. I didn't want to give too much away.

[Frank] So creating the monsters.

[Crystal] That's creating the monsters. And there's also these like, kind of godlike creatures that are also in this world. One of them is an--I'm going to see if I can pronounce it correctly. There's [inaudible] who is the sort of god-like monster slayer that found Maggie when she was really young. So when she was-it's through a series of flashbacks, but it's revealed that she witnessed a [inaudible] killed in kind of this like horrible way by a witch and his men. And for cannibalistic purposes, which again reminds me of Monstrous because there were the sorceresses and the eating of different people and stuff as well. But because she witnessed something so horrifying, her clan powers manifest. She kills the men, and the monster slayer finds her, becomes her mentor, has her as a sort of an apprentice, but that at some point abandons her, so she is somebody who is much like Mica in Monstrous, like very damaged. Well, I shouldn't say that. Like, I feel like that's a harsh word to put onto protagonists. Somebody who has had many, like traumatic things happen, and has to sort of work through those situations and has to deal with this question of like, you know, "Am I evil? Because I'm killing people, right? I'm doing these things that are really kind of horrifying, but maybe are for the greater good." So that question of like, what's good, what's bad is sort of always present. And Kai also has these clan powers. His is being able to heal, and then to also manipulate weather, and he has like another one that gets revealed later on. And in the book, I mean, I think this is much more like kind of [inaudible] there. So it does culminate in like like a big battle scene in the end, and there are some elements of it that are maybe a little bit like predictable for a fantasy book. But I do feel like it's written in the voice that is very interesting. There's a lot of momentum. Like I read this in one sitting, it was really fun to read. And I think it takes an interesting twist on the kind of fantasy books that maybe we're more used to because it delves into sort of Native American thoughts, particularly in Navajo mythology, versus like, what like, you know, Bull, which is the Western Roman mythology, Greek mythology.

[Frank] There's that--what's splattered up to me was when you when you repeated word clan again. Of course, it made me think about what I just discussed about community. Like, what's community, what's clan, and that clans have these powers? And it's so interesting. I mean, you know, it's just, it's, there isn't, I think, I guess it seems like there's a human instinct to have community to be a part of, you know. You want to be a part of and hopefully you find or are in the right one that sort of matches your temperament or personality, or that gives meaning to you, that sustains you. But what if you're in the in the wrong clan? Or in the wrong community? Like, oh, or should you modify yourself or find another? And that is such an interesting concept. I mean, that doesn't happen in your book you're talking about, but when you said clan again, I was like, here's that word again, a better group of people.

[Crystal] Well, you know, it's, it is interesting, because when you were talking about your book, and you were talking about those aspects of community, it did make me think about this book, because well, you know, to touch a little bit lightly on it, like I can't say I've like read tons about it, but there is a little bit of controversy with authors. The author, Rebecca Roanhorse is an [inaudible] and of African American descent. She is not Navajo, but her husband is. And I think there is some debate about whether or not she has the right to tell the story. Right, which is something that we've talked about in previous recordings. There's also some question of like, she's not an enrolled tribal member. So there's that question of like, if the community doesn't claim you, are you part of that community? Right, you know? And I think that is, seems like a very kind of big question with a lot of Native American communities raise. So if you're not enrolled, you're not claimed. And if you're not claimed, does that mean that you have the right to claim? You know?

[Frank] Wow.

[Crystal] And I don't know the answer to that. I definitely [inaudible] of that. But there's also this question, too, which is, with within many [inaudible] of color, there is a lot of anti-blackness, you know, and she is somebody who is also of African American descent. So, there's that question too, of like whether or not these criticisms are also coming from that place, as well.

[Frank] Right.

[Crystal] I don't know the answer to that. I will say, what I did really like about this book, and I am not somebody that is knowledgeable about Navajo, lore, customs. It did make me interested in finding out more, you know, and reading more about it. So I appreciate that. One of the things I did learn from this book is I think there are people within the Navajo community who prefer like the name [inaudible]. So it's this thing of being able to name yourself versus taking on a name that somebody has given you.

[Frank] Oh, interesting.

[Crystal] It may be, of course, think about myself. But a little bit because you know- [ Inaudible ] I did immigrate here from China when I was about three or so, pretty young. And when you go through, I don't know, immigration, whatever, you're essentially given a name. So I have a Chinese name, right? But the way it's pronounced, you can't really get it from the way it's written in English, because I think tonally, it's not captured, so I was given like an American name. That's not a Crystal. Just kind of based on the agent that was there. And that's like, sort of my legal name that I use on my birth certificate, all of that. Not my birth certificate, like, all my like legal documents. But I chose the name Crystal. Now, it wasn't a mistake for my parents to allow a three- or four-year-old to choose their own name. Yes.

[Frank] So you were three or four when you chose it?

[Crystal] I was very young. I remember sitting on the counter, and my parents were asking, like, what names, and I think apparently, when I went in to the immigration office, I said something like Crystal or Christine, and they were like, "Okay, Crystal." So that's how I got my American name. And that's the name I go by, right? Even though I'm just like [inaudible]. But it is that question like, you know, the label that you're given versus the name that you choose. And I think that's kind of interesting to think about that.

[Frank] It is. I mean, it's funny, it's like getting a tattoo. It's like, I can't imagine. Even though "Frank" doesn't seem to get me, I don't know, [inaudible]. But I don't think I could choose another because I don't think I could commit to just one other name. You know, I don't think at this point in my life, or at really any point in my adulthood, I don't think I could say, "Okay, I am a Maximilian," and then go through life that way. I don't think I could do it. It would be too limiting in a weird way, rather than owning. I'd rather live with and relate to, which is not always, which is not that pleasant, the name that was given to me, in a weird way. And it's funny, when you reminded me of, again, something else in the book I read, where that claiming--that sort of articulate, wonderful way you put that. Like, if a community doesn't claim you, and what does that mean, are you a part of that community? Towards the end Oscar, the sexy dude is going and you know, he's the kind of gay guy who calls [inaudible] people breeders. But anyway, he's in a, he's with a couple of other gay men who are like, married and you know, living that suburban life. And Oscar refers to them all, as, I don't even think I should say the F word, for gay people. I don't really want to say it. But and one of the other guys says, "Don't ever say that word. Don't, don't, really. Really, don't say it." And Oscars like, "Oh, god." He's like, he, Oscar is reclaiming that word, and then owning it, like groups can do. And yet, but yet someone technically in his group is rejecting it completely. Like, it's, it's not appropriate, and it doesn't have any place. And so what does that mean for community? They're in the same community, but are they in the same community? I mean, is the gay community a, obviously not just one monolithic community? There's so much out there.

[Crystal] You know, I know, I mean, I think that does bring up an interesting point. This certainly discussions I've had with friends, coworkers. You know, a lot of these, I guess, slurs, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] Are being reclaimed. But sometimes it does seem like what's happening is there's this older versus younger generation. An older generation who had to live through the slurs being hurled at them, and a younger generation that is trying to reclaim it, and then that kind of maybe a little bit of a clash there too.

[Frank] It can be older, younger. It's in some ways, it's also again, that word again, I've used it before--aspirational versus rejecting. Like the guy who says, "Don't use the F word," is like married to a man and living that life, like that life I said before that's very highly marketable, and that you can buy into in some ways, literally and figuratively. And interestingly, Sebastian's mother, who is Arab, emigrated from Iraq. I don't think it says the country, but just doesn't talk at all about her heritage or ethnicity with her son because she wants her son to be completely American.

[Crystal] Assimilated.

[Frank] Right. Like I've mentioned before, my father knew German, but he didn't teach me, and I wish he did. It would have been a connecting thing with him. But he was just like, "You're in America, you know, don't." And that's, but yet, and then Sebastian sort of longs for that connection of his mother, like what his mother could have brought to him. But she thought she was doing good by just saying, denying that aspect of her, so her son could have a more so-called American life. And so there's all these communities. I don't know why I just said that. You were saying something, but like, it just, it's this sort of this aspirational. That she was aspirational for something for her son and herself, that she's see, saw, perceived as American and therefore valuable. And you know, the guy who doesn't want another gay guy choose F word, he's denying that word. He does, like you were saying, reclaiming slurs. He's denying that word because it doesn't fit into the aspiration he has for his own life. For his own sort of, I'm normal, quotes. I am part of society. I am fully fledged citizen, just like anyone else. I can marry. I can love. And that's a, that's a good thing. I don't want to hear that slur because I don't, I don't own it. It doesn't just describe my experience. I just think we should merge these two books and just call it Let's Get Back to the Monster Slaying. [Laughter] I mean, we could actually merge these books as clans and communities. Wow, I don't know how we can connect things that seems so incredibly different. I guess it's the human experience.

[Crystal] Oh, I was, I want to say too, for this book. She has another book that's come--well, maybe it came out already. Black Sun. Maybe it came out this year, the year before. But I was also going to suggest to folks that like if there are listeners that enjoy YA fantasy like Graceling, by Kristin Cashore, Angelfall by Susan Ee is like this is kind of the next step, step forward in a lot of ways. But maybe just a little bit more adult themed. So those are my readalikes. I give this- [ Inaudible ] I have to give my crystal nickels on this.

[Frank] Oh, your crystal--right.

[Crystal] Maybe two decimal points.

[Frank] Don't ask me! You're the one who refused to give any number.

[Crystal] I think I would give her 3.95.

[Frank] Out of five?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Crystal nickels?

[Crystal] Yes. I think this is going to be something that people who are really strongly fans of fantasy, maybe like light horror will really enjoy. I think, because they had a little bit too much of the sort of graphic horror ish elements, it was not like the best for me because of the nightmares.

[Frank] See, that intrigued me, of course.

[Crystal] So maybe you would enjoy this book. Yeah, I did enjoy it. It's really fun, fast reading and I think there's a second book. I think there might be like the third, fourth one. She's definitely created this world here. So yeah, I think it's good. So I recommend.

[Frank] All right. Thanks, Crystalina. Do you--I'm going to make you, oops.

[Crystal] Yes. Wait.

[Frank] I can hear you.

[Crystal] Okay.

[Frank] You flipped out, but I can hear you. Do you want to announce to the world, the waiting world, what book we're going to read together next, for the next time? Please do. Oh, I see. You turned your camera off because you're going to do a [inaudible] doodly doo. I always get taken off guard by that.

[Crystal] I actually know which microphone is receiving the sound, if it's the computer one or [inaudible]. Thank you.

[Frank] Should I listen?

[Crystal] Can you hear me?

[Frank] I can hear you whispering.

[Crystal] Can you hear the sound? I really don't know, which is the mic.

[Frank] No. Well, I can hear it, but you have to like let it sink in. So just do it again. Sounds horrifying. It's almost like a distant--it sounds distant which may not be the intent. It sounds like a corpse trying to push open metal grate. Speaking of which, or fingertips on plastic.

[Crystal] [Whispering] This is something that I borrowed from the children's librarian [inaudible].

[Frank] It could be anything. Is it a toy of some sort?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Is it plastic?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] Okay. Is it your fingertips on this toy? Oh! Oh, it's like a-is it ridged? Is it [inaudible] for our pleasure? [Laughter]

[Crystal] Oh, well, you know, I will say the shape is. I don't actually know what this is called. Maybe I should just show you here.

[Frank] Oh, dear. Not only is it not guessable, but it's also not nameable. There we go. Oh, it's-I don't even know what it's called either. Balls in a tube.

[Crystal] So they use it for sensory storytime, basically. So it's one, two. No, wait. Let me count. One, two, three, four, five, eight little rubber balls in this plastic tube and it's just kind of used during story time for the kids. They kind of engage it, engage with like, the visuals of it. And the sound of it. Was the sound pleasant? I couldn't tell.

[Frank] No, it seemed scary. It's the balls, basically, as you, as you rock your hands back and forth. They roll from one side to the other. And that's the sound of them hitting each side.

[Crystal] I took a picture of it.

[Frank] But it sounded like I said.

[Crystal] A corpse.

[Frank] Pushing your finger on a metal grate.

[Crystal] No, I think you were just thinking about a book trailer.

[Frank] I was. It's ominous. [Inaudible] edge today because of, you know, whatever. But.

[Crystal] Alright, well, I should name the book. Okay.

[Frank] Name the book.

[Crystal] Yes, yes. So the next book that we're going to do, we're going to definitely break with our theme of doing war books, and books about the war. Now, this could be a book about the meaning of humanity. So the book we're going to do is The Meaning of Mariah Carey, by presumably, Mariah Carey.

[Frank] You know what? Books culture, and what's next? [Singing] You got me feeling emotion better than I've ever before. You got me feeling emotion [inaudible].

[Crystal] For our next episode, I can only imagine the amount of singing that will be happening.

[Frank] So I'm going to work on a routine, I think.

[Crystal] I'll have to prepare myself for that. I heard the audio book involves Mariah singing as well. So I might try to check that out, too. But I'm excited. I already have it checked out. Already.

[Frank] You did recommend this, that we read this, which is fine.

[Crystal] I recommended and kept bringing it up every way I could.

[Frank] I think we should run the gamut. And, you know, I'm even a little older than Mariah Carey. So I definitely knew her from the beginning, but I don't know a lot about her. And I put one thing appeals to me is I like the name of the book. I like--she wrote it with a co-author. It's approved by here. She's in it, she's involved, she wrote it, let's just say, until we decide differently, but I like that she called it The Meaning of Mariah Carey. It seems like it's a, it's a desire to find out the meaning of what she either represents and what she is to herself. That I like, that seems like a journey I'd like to take of any, for anybody. And then of course, it'll give me a chance to be like [singing] sweet, sweet, baby.

[Crystal] Learning more about history as well, or music history in particular, which I'm not very knowledgeable about.

[Frank] Let's do it, kid, The Meaning of Mariah Carey. Maybe she'll listen to it, the podcast, and we'll become part of the Lambily.

[Crystal] Is that what they're called?

[Frank] Her fans, the Lambily. See, I know that. Like I was like, "I don't know much about her." I'm like, "Yeah, right, Frank." [Laughter] Anyway, my darling, it's time to let these people go, because we've talked forever, at least I have, So thank you, everybody, for listening. And join us next time when we talk about Mariah Carey and her book, and have a great week.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We are produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.