Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Welcome to another episode of The Librarian Is In! Hope you are all keeping cool out there! 

To celebrate Pride Month, Frank and Crystal chose Memorial  by Bryan Washington from the Recent LGBTQ Reads From Both Familiar and Fresh Voices list to read together and discuss. 

Memorial by Bryan Washington

Benson and Mike are two young guys who live together in Houston. Mike is a Japanese American chef at a Mexican restaurant and Benson's a Black day care teacher, and they've been together for a few years—good years—but now they're not sure why they're still a couple. When Mike finds out his estranged father is dying in Osaka just as his acerbic Japanese mother, Mitsuko, arrives in Texas for a visit, Mike picks up and flies across the world to say goodbye. In Japan he undergoes an extraordinary transformation, discovering the truth about his family and his past. Back home, Mitsuko and Benson are stuck living together as unconventional roommates, an absurd domestic situation that ends up meaning more to each of them than they ever could have predicted. Without Mike's immediate pull, Benson begins to push outwards, realizing he might just know what he wants out of life and have the goods to get it. Both men will change in ways that will either make them stronger together, or fracture everything they've ever known. And just maybe they'll all be okay in the end. (Publisher summary.)

Were you able to guess what Crystal held the mic up to for the ASMR challenge? It puuuurplexed Frank—but only for a second! (Does that hint give it away? Whoops. Guess the cat's outta the bag!)

See you next week!

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello and welcome to The Librarian Is In, the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Crystal] And I'm Crystal.

[Frank] Hi, Crystal.

[Crystal] Hello. I'm holding a mic like a DJ right now.

[Frank] Well, it's the only way I can hear you, so do it.

[Crystal] But I look super cool, right?

[Frank] You look super cool. You always look super cool. So how was your day? What's it like at work for you right now?

[Crystal] Right now there's a lot of people in the branch, which is like a good and a bad thing. Good because it's nice to see like a lot of people we haven't seen before, because we used to be split into two teams and now we're merged. But it does feel a little bit like we're kind of on top of each other sometimes. But, you know, it's been pretty pleasant and so nice to see a lot of people coming back in. I like seeing my displays get emptied, so I know teens are taking books, which is fantastic and we're starting to --

[Frank] Really?

[Crystal] Yes. I actually spoke with Grace from BookOps and she said that our circulation was pretty good in the young adult section. So I'm quite proud myself.

[Frank] Well, you should be. I feel --

[Crystal] Considering the pandemic. It's probably actually super low, but, you know.

[Frank] Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm still on a work-from-home go-on-site schedule. Like I'm not merging until July 6th when everything really opens up. So it's weird. Like I have a bunch of work from home days and the more I am home lately, so the more depressed I get. I feel like I lose sight of like hopefulness in some ways. And when I'm at the library, I feel better and I feel useful. I don't feel as useful home. A lot of it's obviously because a lot of what I want -- like to do is frontline and help deal with people, but. So anyway, I just -- you know, I think I had one martini too many last night, a party of one, and I'm just tired and a little whatever. Because I've been working from home for the past couple days, so I feel a little bit -- but that's going to end soon. So I just feel a little bit like looking into the middle distance. But I always feel that way. I don't know. There you go.

[Crystal] Do you miss the entirety of the staff? Because I'm assuming y'all are all like kind of split up?

[Frank] Yeah because --

[Crystal] -- the teams. Yeah.

[Frank] I'm not so sure about that. I've worked with some of these people for decades and. Well, it's really the public and feeling needed and feeling useful and needed. But, you know, you work from home and you plan. It is what it is, doll. It is what it is. So, but I watched a really good movie last night.

[Crystal] What movie was it?

[Frank] Well, it was based -- it's a movie based on one of my favorite books, The Painted Veil, by Somerset Maugham.

[Crystal] Edward Norton?

[Frank] Yes, Edward Norton and Norton and Naomi Watts. And Edward Norton was so good. Do you know that story?

[Crystal] I had seen the movie a long time ago, but I don't remember it.

[Frank] Really?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] So romantic.

[Crystal] I watch movies.

[Frank] Well, I don't know. I loved it. It's like a throwback and it's such a great story in that it's in the '20s and Edward Norton plays like a scientist, like a bacteriologist, and he falls in love with Naomi Watts, who's like a rich girl but who is not getting married anytime soon. And then, you know, it's -- there's allusions made that she'd better get married because the parents aren't going to take care of her forever. And through various machinations, she agrees to marry Edward Norton and -- even though she doesn't love him and he loves her. And she then has an affair with Liev Schreiber, who was her real-life husband at the time. And there's a great scene in the book and in the movie about Naomi Watts and Liev Schreiber in bed and Edward Norton is trying the door of the room they're in and you just see their horrified looks as the door handle goes up and down. And it's written beautifully in the Somerset Maugham book. Anyway, so then -- why are we talking about this? I guess -- well, we'll talk about the book. I'll tell you about the movie, when I was having too many martinis. And so I -- and so they have it out, Naomi Watts and Edward Norton, and he basically says, I'm going to this part of China. I think it's China, where there's a terrible, terrible cholera outbreak to -- he's going to go study the water and, you know, try to quell the disease. And it's like, you know, deadly disease. And he says, you're coming with me. Otherwise, I'm going to have a terrible divorce with you and you're going to get smeared. So it's like this punishment thing. He's punishing her by dragging her there. And then I won't tell the rest, because you should read it or see the movie again. But suffice to say, it's so well done and believable and it's love that forms into the most horrible situation. It's just beautiful. I loved it. It's what I needed. I was exhausted. Anyway, we did read a book.

[Crystal] Yes. Yes, we did.

[Frank] We did read a book. Well, there I just talked a little bit about the culture, the movie in a book, Painted Veil, Somerset Maugham, and a great movie too. Yeah, we read Memorial by Bryan Washington, which is on the LGBTQ list, NYPL list.

[Crystal] Oh, the Recent LGBTQ Reads From Both Familiar and Fresh Voices was the name of the blog post.

[Frank] Oh, is a blog post.

[Crystal] Blog post list. Yeah.

[Frank] So this book, I don't know. I always say that and some people listening hate when I do, because I'm always like, I don't know, I don't know. It was emotional, certainly. I was almost -- it's not like you're thinking of yourself. I was reading it and I was almost like, huh. Like, I don't know how I feel, if I liked it or not, and then I just felt so emotional, like -- to be honest, a little tearful. And then I thought it hits -- it hit me in probably ways that I didn't want to own up to, possibly.

[Crystal] Oh, interesting.

[Frank] Yeah, it's not a romance to me. There's no sense of romance and there's also no sense of literary transcendence. Like he, Washington, doesn't try to write literarily beautifully. It's very colloquial and first person. So you get a real sense of people as they are, rather than a literary overlay, which can also feel very mundane sometimes.

[Crystal] Yeah, I would definitely agree with that, because I felt like this one less so than the previous ones that we had chosen, I wasn't pulling out so many quotes from it. But there were a lot of interesting things that were happening in it. It wasn't just so based in the language itself. Because like you said, it was very every day, you know.

[Frank] Yeah, I always feel torn whether I should tell the plot or not. I guess some people haven't read it, but it is, I mean, essentially just a book about a relationship between these two guys. And you get all shading this -- it's basically three parts. And one character, Ben, has the first part and then his boyfriend, Mike, has the second, and then Ben gets the third and last part. And it's their relationship and all the doodle-dos that go on in a relationship. Ben is Black and Mike is Japanese-American?

[Crystal] Japanese-American, yeah.

[Frank] Which was interesting, actually. It's like I noticed something in the book, that Black is capitalized and whenever White people are referred to, it's usually like -- what's that word when you put two words together?

[Crystal] Portmanteau.

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] Portmanteau.

[Frank] A portmanteau. Yes. Like, he'll say whitechic, whiteboy, whitegirl, but it's one word, lowercase. And I was like, it's like creating an entity. But it's not capital, but it was -- it's almost creating an entity that signifies something not so great. It's usually not saying nice things about white behavior when he does do that. What do you think? Did you get that?

[Crystal] I didn't look too deeply into it, mostly because I feel like typically like a lot of things that I see, b is capitalized and w generally isn't, because there's a little bit of that thing of like, we know what is white culture, you know. I did notice that kind of like squishing of the words with that whiteboy, but I just took it as more kind of like this is just -- what was -- colloquial, you know, language. It made it feel a lot more realistic, but I don't know if I took it beyond that in terms of it trying to say anything particular about White culture. Yeah. I think I was focused much more just like on their kind of relationship and their relationships with their families, which was something that was very interesting to me.

[Frank] Well, tell me a little bit about that. What did you think? What was interesting?

[Crystal] I think the mirroring of the -- like -- so Mike -- okay, is this a spoiler? I guess we have to kind of [multiple speakers].

[Frank] But we can spoil it, because technically this is a read-along, where everyone's listening from it, but.

[Crystal] Yeah. Yeah. So like as you said, it's divided into three parts. So it's Benson's story in the beginning. I guess it's like both their stories, but from his point of view. And then Mike goes to Osaka to essentially I guess I want to say, take care of his father, but it doesn't really seem like that. It seems to get -- maybe like he's going back to get some resolution or something. And his father is a bartender in Osaka. And I think Benson is also having these sort of issues with his own father. And because like Mike is going back to see his father in Osaka, I think Benson kind of reaches out to his dad. I don't know. And there's this like weird part of the -- where Mike almost sort of manipulates the situation where he essentially invites his mom to come visit him from Osaka to go to Houston, which is where they're living. And his mom shows up to stay with them and Mike's like, well, I'm going to Osaka, and then he leaves. And so his mom is in Houston with Benson for what? Like a month or so. I'm not sure how long.

[Frank] And he -- they don't know each other.

[Crystal] No, and they're kind of getting to know each other.

[Frank] Yeah, I thought -- there was something about the book in general that though you get their point of view in alternating chapters, right? Like I said and it is first person, you don't really -- you're not privy to the -- to their deepest thoughts, really. They're not what -- because they're not telling us. They're not telling the reader those things. I mean, you get observations, you get feelings, you get questions, but a lot of it isn't -- maybe this is what I meant before about literary transcendence. You don't get the real deal behind the words. It's all -- and its -- which is very much like real life and real relationships, because people -- and I think it's intentional that you're not -- that people are -- don't understand what they're doing all the time. And if somebody said, well, what are you doing? Why did you do that? And it's like, I don't know. I just had to. I don't know. I just did it, you know. And then which drives me crazy because I want to know -- I want my person that I'm talking to tell me that they know or then I don't know half the time what I'm doing. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not clear why he did leave to see his dad. Well, it is -- and allowed his mother to visit. He just did it, right?

[Crystal] I agree with you. I do think that they -- when it is in their first person perspective, they are withholding a lot of things or at least like the writer is withholding a lot of things. Because I did remember when I was reading the middle part, Mike section, which is like chapter-less. It's almost just like one big run-on chapter. I felt like through his eyes, I like understood Benson a little bit better and like vice versa. Because I felt like there were certain scenes that felt like very intimate. I felt like I got this clear picture of Benson, but I wasn't necessarily getting that when it was like from his point of view in the first third. And that was very interesting.

[Frank] Well, that's it. That's a good example. Because Benson refers to -- like a moment with Mike where he hit him or because they do fight physically, certainly verbally, but they've -- and he doesn't go into detail about it. It's just referred to like, yeah, I had to chill out because I once shoved him. And so he's not telling us. Like we're privy to his thoughts and -- it begs the question like who they're talking to. I guess as the reader we're sort of what is -- what am I looking for? We're privy to their thoughts pretty much as if -- as much as they want to describe, as -- maybe as much as they can describe. And I'm not saying that they're impaired or not conversant with their emotions. It's just not everything is said. And somehow that seemed very real to me, because the more I think of it, the more less I have language for anything. And that's why I always say I love reading because I want to have -- accrue the language to describe experience. And this almost felt like, you know, the closest to humans or animals too. And we're just sort of like, you know, either -- well, in a way it seemed like that life in this book and life can be described as three things, like you were always under duress, you want to eat, and then you want to the other one. Because there's a lot of that in the book too. You know. And it seems -- when I see animals, it's not a pejorative. It's like we are, I mean, like a human animal. Like we're struggling to define our experience really to give words to our experience and to our relationships. I mean, the book makes it so clear how impossible relationships are, you know, I mean, without us knowing why even. And Mike at one point says, which is -- one of the great quotes was, you know, there's no real answer. It's like he says there's no real answer and you just have to stick around. That's enough. It has to be. I mean, when I would have read that when I was younger, I would have been like, that's not acceptable. It has -- we have to dig deeper. There has to be more of an answer. But now I understand like, well, sometimes you just stay. And I think Mike's mother says to Ben, when they're spending time together, about Mike, he tells -- she tells Ben, Mike likes you, Ben. But if you just endure, he will come around. It's just his own time, which might be too long for you. And that really struck me about relationships, because you could love someone, but they're not on the same time schedule you are in terms of connection and next steps and things like that and then one person might leave because of it. Whereas if they just stuck around, they would have eventually synced up, possibly, you know. But you know what? But you never know. And I love that, it's sort of putting very clearly like yeah, you both love each other, why don't you stay together? Because one of them is like, I'm just not getting what I need right now and I don't even know what I need, but I'm not getting it and I'm not -- I don't want to stay, which I find is poignant, right?

[Crystal] But I like what you said too earlier about like this idea of language and how the author uses it, but not like in that kind of way of like writing it. So that's like super lyrical or super -- or transcendent -- I cannot say the word, as you were saying earlier. But I think he does use it in a way of sort of, I want to say like almost redacting or like leaving a lot of things unsaid, because a lot of his writing, it comes in these like small little chunks and then it's just like a little dash and then moves like another like one or two lines. And there are certain areas where I do feel like it's very, very effective. So like after the passing of a family member, you know, there's like a one line then a dash, I mean, like one sentence and then like a dash and then it goes to another sentence. And time moves in that way and you can tell like a lot of time has passed, but you don't really know what's happening, except for this brief little moment that is shared. And I think that is very interesting and realistic of grief and trauma too of maybe like being awashed in a lot of feelings but only being able to pick out a few. So I appreciate that. I think that also kind of mirrors Benson, who as you read further, it's kind of revealed that he is not somebody who actually does talk a lot, you know. And when he does talk, it's very revealing of how he actually feels about things. Yeah, I don't know. How did you feel about the kind of writing with those -- I guess I call them time fluctuations, because it would be a section that's in present day then it kind of loops back into the past and it goes back and forth and then like a short section, long section. It kind of messed with me a little bit.

[Frank] The time jumping, you mean?

[Crystal] The time jumping and the brevity of some of those sections as well.

[Frank] Interesting. There's a lot I can think of. I have to say when I was reading it, I did think this guy seems really young, the author. Then I did look it up and he's 27. He just seemed young to me. And then I found out he was indeed young. And that sort of can sound like I'm disparaging it and I'm not. It just seemed -- huh, there's so many things here, because it relates to what you said about the language. The shortness of the exchanges and the brevity, as you have referred to it, seemed young to me. And then maybe it was also -- again, it was getting that colloquial feel as real conversations are. These are not like long-winded Henry James exchanges. They're just as legit, but they're not. They're more like real, like real, unfortunately conversations that don't have -- well, people don't know what they're going to say. But I did notice something about the language that I thought -- that I picked up that it happened a lot. And I wonder if he knew what he was doing this or if it was something the style in which Bryan Washington writes. Somebody will say something and then the next line, because the way it's organized is like each sentence is on its own line instead of a run-on thing, you'd expect the next person to say something, but he almost always has someone say something and then the next line, rather than be the other person, it's the same person following up, or diverging from what they had just said. So it's almost like this modifier, but also it often counterpoints what they just said. Sort of like the character will say, well, I don't know, and then the next line is, but then how could I know? You know, he does that a lot, which I found -- I always expected it to be another person speaking, but it's the same person. So I had to pay attention to who was talking, but. And then I thought if that modifier was some sort of way of conveying something. Almost as if like -- again, very real life, we say something. We don't -- we say it, hope it's true, think it's true, then say something after that indicates maybe that's not true, you know. Or it's a punch. It punches it up or something. It's just this way of -- I guess it's always qualifying. He does get that sense of it's not confusion, but that sense of we're just throwing stuff out there and hopefully, something sticks, you know. I mean, he also did -- the other thing I noticed about language is that he often will have the two, Ben and Mike, talking or existing, or Ben and the mom, Mike's mother, Mitsuko, right? Yeah. And then he'll -- Bryan Washington will write a vignette of something else happening in the area they are, like in a restaurant and the waiter is having an issue or two kids run across the street. And I was like, why is he telling these little side stories quickly, like a paragraph, like taking away from the main characters that we're following? And in a way it relates to what I've been trying to say about this book the whole time. It's almost by positioning those stories next to the main story, it's showing that Ben and Mike are not the whole world. They're not the only human beings struggling, or figuring things out, or in a relationship. They're part of a human, you know, race. I mean, he even says several times like -- I actually wrote it here. Like he has a -- Ben is looking at the window and he catches eyes with a homeless guy and they catch eyes and then he says something like, oh, "Then we both turn back into our own lives." Like he has a moment out of his life and then back to his life. And then there's another great line where they're fighting in the car and it says like, their one soap opera in a highway of far too many soap operas. Like in their car, they're just one soap opera playing out where every other car is having their own drama. And it sort of maybe is a way of indicating -- because there is a -- look, and I said it's not romantic. There is a cynicism that is not young-seeming, but there's a cynicism or just a -- I was trying to think of the word. It's not an outsiderness, it's not otherness. It's like an acknowledgement that -- it's almost like the writer is writing these characters, Bryan Washington is writing these characters where Bryan Washington himself is barely holding on, like barely holding on to getting through the next day, like a belief in a forward motion of life. And that's maybe what makes it sad. And it doesn't also -- he doesn't hand this to you in a specific written-out way. It's the feeling you get as you're reading through the book. Does that make sense?

[Crystal] It does. And I think it's interesting that you brought in sort of the I guess, the presence of the author, Bryan Washington. Because I didn't get it so much in that way that you did, but it does make sense, but. Well, I have the version that I checked out the beam. But there were these photographs that were in it, which I'm assuming is in the physical book, right?

[Frank] Yes.

[Crystal] And I felt like every time I looked at the photographs, I could not help but think about the author, Bryan Washington and thinking about like, did he take these photos? Are these photographs meaningful to his own life? And where is he situated within the story? And I didn't know if that was intentional or not.

[Frank] Well, we don't know. I mean, someone took them, I guess.

[Crystal] But I think it's interesting that you also kind of felt, I guess, his presence in like the way the writing was too. And now I'm kind of like thinking about the book in its entirety, I'm wondering how much of all of that was meant to be like.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, it'd be too easy to say that it's depressing. It's not the right word. There's a very entrenched sense of, really, truth. And I guess truth can be depressing in that life is a struggle. I mean, he says things like well, we make up a family, as much as a family as we can get. Like, you know, that nothing is perfect. It's not like, oh, we're a family and isn't it so wonderful? It's like, well, yeah, we make up a family and I guess this is as good as it's going to be. And it doesn't -- it's not like cynical and hard bitten. It's just a very matter-of-fact and its acknowledgement of that, which can be a little bit sad. And there's sadness to it, a little bit. But it seems truthful, I'm sure. I'm looking at my notes about coach.

[Crystal] Well, I don't want to jump to the end too early, but what do you think happened at the very end?

[Frank] Well, that's a good question. Well, we can say it like a -- it doesn't -- and I had a feeling it might happen this way. It doesn't say -- the debate is Mike's father does die and he comes back to Houston, where his mother and Ben are, and then he says he's going to go back and take over his father's bar that he left him for an indeterminate amount of time. He just feels like it's something he has to do. And the first thing is she's also -- the mom's going to go back. And then it ends with both of them taking her to the airport. That's not a note with her, like her triumphantly ascending the escalator to get on the plane. She was a great character by the way.

[Crystal] She was.

[Frank] I really enjoyed her.

[Crystal] Well, I bring it up because a, you know, here you talk about sort of like maybe the cynical elements of it. I guess like I felt like -- I mean, maybe I'm totally off base, but the ending, like even just the last page, I thought that Mike stays, right? And so I felt like, for me, there was perhaps like this opportunity for optimism that maybe he was going to stay and kind of make it work, possibly. But I don't know. Maybe I completely misread that. Like I know that he was on the go, everything was packed. But I thought that maybe like a decision was made in the moment and he just allowed her to leave. But I think it gets purposely unclear. I could be completely wrong, but that's why like -- maybe it's just -- it kind of depends on whether you want to see the hopeful aspect in it or the not so. What do you think?

[Frank] Well, that hits the core of what I'm trying to say, is that I don't think -- he was going to go later anyway. So him staying -- he did stay, but he was going to go later. And it pointedly says that they don't -- I think at one point Ben has a picture of Mike on his phone and he says, yeah, that's the picture I'm always going to have. Whatever happens to us in the future, I'm going to -- this will be the picture I remember. So he's even saying he doesn't know. I think you don't know whether they're going to stay together or not. But that's -- I forgot what I was going to say. But that's the -- I didn't think it was sad. I think that's -- it's very much like real life, you know. Like it's not a romance. It's not going to give you the they're in love, they're going to stay together. It's basically giving you they are in love, but they might not stay together. For that undefinable, why does any relationship fail? And I was thinking about that -- about I don't know. I wrote in my notes when I was writing, some of the supporting characters, like Ximena, Ben's co-worker at the daycare center he works in, Lydia his sister. Like they have these great lines and these great moments and they often comment on Ben and Mike's relationship. And I wrote something like other people's opinions on your life is like astrology. It's like they -- because, you know, some people do have hardcore opinions and very articulate ones about your own life. Like friends of yours might have said, you know, this is what you're doing. This is what's happening. And it made me realize that they might not be right. They don't know. I mean, nobody knows. I mean, one self doesn't even know necessarily what's happening in your own life. But it's like astrology in that it could be useful. It might not be true, but it could be useful data to make decisions. Which brings me to the next point, is that this whole book is about making decisions, which is the ultimate anti-romance thing that can be. Because to me, I always define romance in some ways as things happen and they cannot be denied. You're not necessarily choosing, you're just swept along in this passion or emotion. And adulthood is truly, in real life, all about making decisions. That's what maybe -- that's what -- that's probably what I'm trying to get at is that the real feeling of this book is that all we have as adults is to make decisions about our lives and oftentimes we just don't. We just don't want to. We don't make a decision. I think at one point Mike and Ben are talking about monogamy and Mike is just like, you know, there's a big world out there, you know. How could we possibly be monogamous kind of thing? And Ben is like, well, we could because we could, because we can. And then he says something like, well, let's not talk about it now. And then Ben says something like, well, not making a choice is making a choice. And I think that's sort of the core of the book, which can be an unpleasant reading in a way, because it reminds us of all the choices we have to make in life. And that's -- sometimes you just rather be swept along by passion. Am I right? Anyway, did I just knock you down with an intellectual [inaudible] baby?

[Crystal] No, I really liked that. I mean, yeah, I did remember that part in it where that question, like whether or not to have an open relationship and that aspect of like by not making that choice, they've already sort of made it. I think that is really interesting. I really do like that.

[Frank] Yeah. So what do you think? Should I even bring this up? Or maybe I shouldn't. Bring this up about what?

[Crystal] What were you going to say?

[Frank] Well, I was going to say [multiple speakers] a Black writer writing from a Japanese man's point of view -- see, I don't even want to bring this up. And there was one point I wrote when the -- Mike, who's Japanese-American is referring -- talking about Mexicans. And I was like, so we have a Black man writing as a Japanese man talking about Mexican. And I was like, is there a problem here? It's like people say about appropriation. I mean, this is interesting. It's just an -- you know. Sorry, I even brought this up. Because I believe in some ways, creativity above all. That someone should be able to do and write and express what they want, what story they want to tell. But it's just interesting how it just arbitrarily comes up sometimes. Well, there was that book, American Dirt.

[Crystal] Well, that's a whole other thing.

[Frank] I don't know much about it. So I don't [inaudible]

[Crystal] So -- I mean, look, I'm definitely not an expert on this at all, but, you know, certainly like I did think a little bit about that. But at the same time, like I'm not Japanese, so I can't really speak to the authenticity of the whole section where Mike is in Osaka. I do think that author -- and again, this is just my personal opinion. I do think that authors can write experiences outside of their own because that is the joy in creativity of writing. I do think that when you do that, you do have a responsibility, right? And you have to do your work, do your research. And I also think that you should think about to or like as a librarian think about when oftentimes, especially like White authors, like the author of like American Dirt, when those stories are written and the White author is doing it, is this kind of taking the spot away from an author of that ethnicity or of that like underrepresented community, right? And American Dirt had this like huge monetary push from the publishers. I think there were -- I think it was also kind of like misrepresented a little bit too by the author herself. So there's a lot of elements to it. I had less of an issue. Like I feel like Memorial and American Dirt cannot be compared in that way, you know.

[Frank] I think when you said taking the spot of, you know, like a White voice taking the spot of a non-white voice, telling a non-white story, might be more to the point in just that give people opportunities to tell their story rather than, right? Is that what you're saying? It's a tough, tough, tough question.

[Crystal] Yeah, like if this author was writing a story about, I don't know like entirely about like a Japanese-American person going to Japan, et cetera and like the publishers were only kind of giving money to somebody who was not Japanese-American to tell those stories, right? As we oftentimes see like money and resources going to White authors to tell the stories of like people from marginalized underrepresented communities, then I think that is a problem, right? I don't think this is like the case here. But again, I cannot speak to the authenticity of that experience, because I have not been to Japan, like I don't know what that's like, you know, so. But I did find it believable, though, I'll say.

[Frank] Yeah. To just fix the issue too, I was like -- which I don't -- how much do you have to know about the author? Like, which I don't really want to know. Like in a way I didn't want to know his age or his race, but I -- actually, it's in the copyright page his birth year and there's an author photo. And then when you referred to about the pictures in the book that appear throughout the -- or a couple of spots of the book, technically, pictures Ben or Mike have taken they're texting the other one about. There were pictures in Japan and I made the assumption, well, how was this guy managing to spend a lot of time in Japan? But I didn't look it up to find out if that's true. I just didn't want to. I just was like sort of like it was believable and I was taking it as this is what life in this part of Japan is about, in this bar in Japan. And you trust that the author is telling you a truth, right? I guess it's -- if it feels authentic, if it feels believable, like you said, you believed it. Truth is another matter altogether, possibly. Truth for this particular experience. I mean, certainly a lot of food in the book. That's why I said, like, it seems like three things make up life, duress, suffering, you know, just or pressure, food, and the other thing that relieves pressure sometimes. He -- a lot of that. A lot of cursing. They both can -- blew it up. What do you think? You look contemplative.

[Crystal] Yeah. No, I was just still thinking about like the trip to Japan and like how necessary it is to the story, because I think there is a lot of elements in it that does talk about estrangements, like obviously the estrangement within this like one individual relationship, but then like also the familial estrangements too. And that travel to go back to form some kind of reconciliation and that also happens in their personal relationship as well. So I think that is also really interesting to me. I was going to also add that I do think this book has humor. I mean, I keep saying it for all of these books, because I don't want people to be like turned off by some serious subjects. But no, there are like quite a few funny parts in it too and they only take like a line or two and you're like yeah, you know, there's a good sense of humor in it.

[Frank] Well, you actually just touched on a point that I was thinking of too, that -- which is another quote that I like, or had an emotional reaction to. But that -- both Mike and Ben's father is the figure largely of this book, right? Or you -- and both of them are drinkers. Ben's father rejects him, rejects Ben for being gay and then HIV-positive. Mike's father he believes, has abandoned the family, which we find out later is not fully the case, but he believes it. So they both have definite issues with their dads, and they are very much a part of the book. There's a line that Mitsuko says to Ben. Yeah, they're talking, getting to know each other, and Ben says something like his mom remarried and he's rich. Like the guy she married is rich and not at all like my father. And she goes, "You're all like your fathers." And I -- that's another line where, you know, when I was young, I would have been like, what does that mean? Like, no, that doesn't make any sense. I don't even know what you're talking about. But in a way it hit me emotionally, because I personally have been thinking about I personally, just thought I was so different than my own father. But the older I get, the more I -- and if I face the truth, rather than just my own personal self-delusion or conception of myself, I realize I'm much more similar than I thought I was. And so that hit me that way. Like we -- because it's basically saying like every son is like their father or every man is alike. I mean, I was just -- but it certainly did hit me in a truthful way where it might not have when I was younger, in a way that I was like, there are such an important thing -- maybe partly I have also downplayed the importance of my own father, personally. And you can't, because they're so important. They're such a huge part of your life, whether they're present or not. I don't know. I guess that idea of masculinity and what it is to be a man and your dad is like that figure, it suddenly seemed you can't get away from them. I don't know. That's a tough one.

[Crystal] Or a little bit of that idea that fate kind of says that there's a certain path that you have to walk. And I got the little sense of that too with Mike and like with his father passing, sort of the expectation that he was going to go and take over his business, right?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Crystal] And feeling like that's something that's kind of -- you just kind of like fall into that, you know.

[Frank] I mean, the fathers are both mean to their -- not that nice to their sons in this book and. But then, the two lovers are not that nice to each other, you know. I mean, in a way it's -- I said I felt youth in this book, but in a way there's the opposite of that. There's a sense of decades long, you know, struggle, personal struggle, but --

[Crystal] I was saying like, remember the little segments where Benson talks about the different times that Mike had told him, like, I love you, which actually is like actually really romantic, even though this book is not romantic. Where he starts with like the second time, third, fourth, fifth, and then it kind of circles back to the first time. And I think, like what you were saying about the fathers, the relationship with their sons, and then the two men, their relationship together, that picture that he painted where it's like they're walking and they're saying like, oh, I love this flower and the way it's navigating the world, I love this thing. And they're pointing at everything but each other. But then by not even pointing at each other, they're kind of saying you're acknowledging this kind of truth that they love each other. I don't know. And I feel like maybe there is something in this inability to communicate with each other, like their sense of love. I love, you know, the scene with Mike's father, like even when he -- I think when he had those drinking bouts where he would be out all night. He would always come back and kiss his son like on his ears, on his face, and that was the only way that Mike could go to sleep. So that kind of language of like, I love you, like, I felt like it was so difficult for them to say it, but it had to be expressed in different ways.

[Frank] I think you're right. I think maybe what they're saying about fathers, that you're all, like your fathers, is that you all can't -- that men cannot communicate. I mean, I was going to ask you, I don't know how cliché this is, but like as a woman, does it -- could this book be about a man and a woman? I mean it seemed over general, like all women are, all men are. I mean, I hate that anyway. But like, it does make a case for it. See that's another thing where I feel personally more like my father too. I'm not as articulate as I always think I am. And reading -- the listeners of this podcast are like, you're not. You barely get yourself across every episode. But like, I think that is a thing. Like there is very little communication. Well, another thing, like you said, you get -- like the seven times Mike says he loves Ben, which you just referred to, there's another thing where Mike finds his father's like pad of paper or a little notebook where his father writes all the things he likes or doesn't like, right? And it --

[Crystal] I do that.

[Frank] What?

[Crystal] Oh, I was just thinking, I do that sometimes too, all the things I don't like.

[Frank] So it reveals the father in a very different way than you see him behave. Like he writes these sort of poignant beautiful things that are personally that he likes, doesn't like, that are very human and very loving and very affectionate or very sensual. But then the dad, the actual man as he behaves with his son, is just like, shut up, go to hell, who cares? You know, it's like a different personality altogether. There's a very real disjoint. Maybe that's what I was asking about a woman, womanliness, is that there is such a disjoint between inner self and behavior? If I don't -- please, that was a dumb -- I mean, certainly not all women are that. It seems to me -- just forget that woman thing. It's just the disjoint between men and how they behave and what they really feel. Dumbest conversation I've ever had in my life.

[Crystal] Oh, I thought you were walking away.

[Frank] I sort of was again.

[Crystal] I mean, yeah. I mean, obviously, I do feel like, you know, a relationship between a man and woman can have these like similar things. But I do feel like the mirroring of like what's happening with the fathers and what's happening between these two men, I think those two together, I think it only happened in this book in this way, you know. We wouldn't be as effective if it was like a hetero relationship, I think. Yeah.

[Frank] Wait, say it again.

[Crystal] Oh, I was saying the mirroring of like the inability of two men to communicate within this romantic relationship mirroring the inability of the father and son to communicate, I think that's really effective, like those two things paired together, I really appreciate.

[Frank] Yeah, there's no need for me to universalize it to all men, all women. It was silly. That's what's making me annoyed with myself. I mean, because also the mom character, Mike's mother, Mitsuko, is like -- one time I wrote down and I was like, she's a tough broad. She's just like straight shooter. Like she -- I mean, there really is no gap between what -- you know, we never get into her head though. But it seems like there's no gap between what she's thinking -- what she's feeling and what she's -- how she behaves, as opposed to the dads, for sure. Well, because we're on the dad's [inaudible] either or observed by the sons, you know. So, in the world of this book, the women certainly have much less gap between behavior and inner life, you know.

[Crystal] I realized my mic was off for a little bit.

[Frank] [multiple speakers] my job. With that mic that you're holding to your mouth, you look like, yes, let's break it down for a minute, Frank and let me just sing a little song that I -- I'm not going to sing.

[Crystal] I sometimes like turn off the switch and then forget. I'm like making noises and saying yes.

[Frank] This has been a weird day. Our technology is not working that well.

[Crystal] It's also very late at night.

[Frank] Sometimes I look at you and I'm, is she frozen? Because you're like looking off. Anyway, I think we covered this book, right? It's a tough one. I mean, it's even a tough one -- it's one of the books that also, if I'm recommending books in the library, I would talk to the person a little bit before I said, yeah, read this book. I would -- even if someone had said to me, you have to read this book, it's so good, I couldn't say it like that. I'd have to talk a little bit. Because I don't think it's that easy. Actually, it's the Good Morning America Book Club. Just looked at the cover. Anyway, do you have anything else to say? Do you have anything going on in your world culturally, that you'd like to share?

[Crystal] I have a read -- I will say this, before talking with you and this is what I like about discussing these books with you, because I feel like my viewpoint on it always shifts through the course of this hour. I don't know, two hours. Time has lost all meaning here. Prior, I think, I would say a read-alike for this book, for me personally, was one that I read called the Shadow Life by Hiromi Goto and Ann Xu. And it's a comic book that is an older woman that's kind of like grappling with death and has like these elements of humor kind of intertwined throughout it. But after talking with you, I feel like I want to choose different read-alike, because it -- I feel like seeing or talking with you about like the relationship, this inability to communicate, I don't know if this book, Shadow Life, is like the right fit anymore. Although it does kind of highlight these other aspects of it that are relevant to the book. So now I want to think of another one.

[Frank] I mean, I don't think it's a read-alike, but I kept coming back to -- as I was thinking about it before we got on this today, I kept thinking of A Little Life, which you read, right?

[Crystal] No, I haven't read it.

[Frank] Well, I talk a lot on this podcast, but it's not really a read-alike.

[Crystal] You know I don't listen to this podcast.

[Frank] Huh? But I don't know. I'm not that much of a librarian where I have to think of a read-alike. You know, I don't know.

[Crystal] Yeah I just like it because I feel like it helps me contextualize the book and see where it fits in with like the other books in my brain.

[Frank] Well, that's a good question. What would I say if -- you know, in terms of the communication? How I don't know.

[Crystal] Well, I'm looking at my [multiple speakers].

[Frank] About men, particularly. I didn't quite realize how much this is really about -- says a lot about men, especially that quote that jumped out at me about you're all like your fathers. Did you ever read Train Dreams? Talked about that with Rhonda, your predecessor.

[Crystal] No, I haven't read that one.

[Frank] That was good. That was beautiful. Denis Johnson. Are you fiddling with something? What are you doing?

[Crystal] I'm looking at my Goodreads.

[Frank] We got to let these people go.

[Crystal] Oh no, I hopped into my ASMR. Hold on. I'm going to turn off my camera and then I'm going to turn off my mic for a second.

[Frank] All right. You don't have to do it, you know. [multiple speakers]

[Crystal] No, I have to do it. Hold on.

[Frank] So do I have to guess, apparently?

[Crystal] Okay, hold on. I'm ready now.

[Frank] Okay.

[Crystal] Everybody listening? Okay, hold on.

[Frank] Wait, it's not like -- wait, let me put my earphones in. I can't really hear it. All right now do it.

[Crystal] Okay, it's coming again. Hold on.

[Frank] Actual license. Why is this -- Is it water or liquid of sorts?

[Crystal] I mean, sure there's liquids in it.

[Frank] Oh really? In it. What do you mean in it?

[Crystal] It's part of it.

[Frank] Like an ice pack that's not frozen.

[Crystal] It's part of its -- no, biology. There is liquid in it.

[Frank] Is it a cat?

[Crystal] Yes.

[Frank] It is? That's the first thing I thought. That's the first thing -- didn't I say that? Well, I knew it.

[Crystal] The cat was meowing at one point, but I gave him a bunch of treats and hopefully that came through.

[Frank] I feel like there's liquid in it.

[Crystal] I mean, you were -- it was close.

[Frank] It's a biological entity.

[Crystal] Cats have lots of water.

[Frank] What's the cat's name again?

[Crystal] It's Pablo.

[Frank] Pablo.

[Crystal] It's for all the great Pablo's of the world.

[Frank] Pablo. Pablo Picasso. Well that was a thrill. Any who, it was a pleasure talking to you, Crystal, and I will see you, hear you, be with you soon when we discuss whatever we darn well feel like discussing book-wise for the next time. So thank you and thanks everyone for listening.

[Narrator] Thanks for listening to The Librarian Is In, a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcast or Google Play, or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library, please visit nypl.org. We're produced by Christine Farrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Crystal Chen.