Welcome to The Librarian Is In, The New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next.

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Greetings NYPL listeners! Thanks for joining us for another Book Club episode. This week Rhonda and Frank battle against the sounds of New York (construction, fire alarms, and drilling—oh my!) while they discuss...

Parable of the Sower, by Octavia Butler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you enjoyed this book, make sure you also pick up the sequel...

Parable of the Talents by Octavia Butler

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tell us what everybody's talking about in your world of books and libraries! Suggest Hot Topix(TM)! Send an email or voice memo to podcasts[at]nypl.org.

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Transcript

[Music]

[Frank] Hello, and welcome to "The Librarian Is In," the New York Public Library's podcast about books, culture, and what to read next. I'm Frank.

[Rhonda] And I'm Rhonda.

[Frank] Hello, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] Hi, Frank. How's it going?

[Frank] It's good, I guess, you know.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] It's going well. I mean, we're sort of both under construction. We've talked about before we came on, like there's might be construction noise in the back but --

[Rhonda] Yeah, there maybe few drills.

[Frank] -- in your apartment. And my, I'm in the library, because it's under renovation. But that said, on the way here, my apartment building, which is half empty, a lot of doors were open, and they were workers, like, you know, fixing up the apartments because they're empty.

[Rhonda] Wow.

[Frank] I've never seen so many vacancies. And then the other thing -- on the way here, my favorite coffee place, like a local family run coffee place after 10 years is leaving.

[Rhonda] Oh, no.

[Frank] Yeah. They --

[Rhonda] [Inaudible] when that happens.

[Frank] Yeah. And he said -- [inaudible]. Yeah. Like, you know, 10 years -- he had a 10 year lease I just found out today. And it -- he said, I guess it was perfect timing, the lease is up and retail is not doing so well.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] As it used to be, you know, they were doing like a two for one food thing. And, you know, so a lot of change. That was then.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] The neighborhood is changing. And, you know, my library is still closed for the renovation reasons and I look forward to reopening it. And I have some plans for sort of a street side thing that I can you that later, but just to sort of be a part of the community, like so many of these places that are losing or struggling.

[Rhonda] Oh, my God. I know. Yeah. And it's just interesting, like you said, to see all the empty apartments, you know, like --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- what's up? And they.

[Frank] And the rents have been driven down for sure, which is also unusual, but I don't know, we'll see change quickly.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] You know, leads us to a very.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] We just do the book, I mean --

[Rhonda] Perfect transition, the focus of change.

[Frank] We read Octavia Butler's the "Parable of the Sower," as many of you listening have also read, I hope. So we'll talk about it free and wild with spoilers galore. But, it's interesting that we did choose this book because I wasn't aware, until recently that Octavia Butler's "Parable of the Sower," which we read, has -- had reappeared on the bestseller list a couple of months ago. And it's now that I've read it, which I had no idea which I love going into it. I didn't know what it was about. I didn't know what it would be. I had a feeling it was science fictiony because it was, I think cataloged in science fiction in the New York Public Library. But, you know, that could be very elastic as well. But that, you know, along with like 1984 and Handmaid's Tale "Parable of the Sower" was another book that people are looking to as something reflective of what's happening in our world today, which we could see if that's true or not, but it definitely had a resurgence script that was written in 1993.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And apparently is, there's a sequel, a part 2.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] Parable --

[Rhonda] "Parable of the Talents."

[Frank] Exactly, which I didn't know either. And I did find out that Octavia Butler was writing a third to make it a trilogy. Didn't get it, you know, worked on it for years and Octavia Butler passed away in 2006, I believe.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But, "Parable of the Sower" was 1993 and "Parable of the Talents," 1998. So "Parable of the Sower."

[Rhonda] I know and actually speaking of science fiction, I've read everything by Octavia Butler.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] And this is probably the least what most people would think of as kind of science fiction. I mean, this is definitely kind of like dystopian, and at the time was, you know, in the future, but she has some fiction, that is what people would really think of as like science fiction, you know, aliens in outer space and things like that. So, in terms of that, you know, people are kind of turned off by the idea of science fiction. I feel like this is her least, you know, kind of one like, that will fall into what most people think of as that category.

[Frank] Yeah, because I, you know, I don't resist -- well, I don't gravitate towards science fiction. And so I was excited to read it because I was like, oh, I'll get into a science fiction book and see what it's all about. But I agree with you when I was reading it, I was like, it's not really science fiction as I think of it, which you could, again, change what science fiction means and other people out there would probably educate me well on that. It was fiction and literary fiction at that and because I already, like you said, aliens and things like that. It's an idea book really. An almost, what if book, which is also science fiction. But more, what if ideologically things had changed? And how would one navigate that new world, not so much aliens and robots but ideas and governing and change in society.

[Rhonda] And I guess you could take the concept and we'll get into this, the whole kind of foundation of her or the goal of her new, I guess you could call it religion, or is to kind of go to outer space. So in that sense --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] You could -- I guess you could call it, you know, get out the science fiction elements. And I won't talk too much about the second book, but that does play more of a role in the second, in the "Parable of the Talents."

[Frank] Well, I wouldn't talk at all about the second book, and if you can help it, but.

[Rhonda] I won't. I'm not, you know, I do have to say it's hard not to.

[Frank] I know.

[Rhonda] It does bring it full circle.

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] I did not know she was writing a third. So I would be really interested to read more about that, because I felt the second one wrapped it up pretty good. But OK, no more about "Parable of the Talents."

[Frank] Well, no. I mean, I please part b it for me to squash that. But, you know, I was half joking.

[Rhonda] Half joking.

[Frank] You know. Yeah, the third one was "Parable of the Trickster."

[Rhonda] Oh, I did hear about that --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- thing. Yeah.

[Frank] But you know, what I do? I, you know, I do like that, "Parable of the Sower" does seem self-contained. It's not like you have to read the next one. And it's not like eight books in the series.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] You know what I mean? Like she definitely wrote it -- I don't know if she intended to write a trilogy, or she was doing one at a time and then it materialized that she was. But it's a very self-contained book. You don't, you're not left on a precipice that you have to read the second one to say, what's going on here.

[Rhonda] I agree with you. But if you read the second book, like I did, and you come back, you reread the first book, you do see how both parts of the story are really important. So I was saying I hope you read the second book. [Inaudible] because, you know, the character that we'll talk about Lauren Olamina, who is the main character of the story, and who's telling it to us through her diary, she does continue to grow as a character through this book and through the second book, so I'll leave it at that.

[Frank] All I'm saying Rhonda, is that I hope Octavia Butler would write a sequel that would be as interesting as the first one. I'm just saying that having not read the second one, the first one felt like a full-fledged work. You know what I mean? It didn't require or, or beg for a sequel per se, unless you really wanted to, which I could totally get into it. You know that love series, but like, I love the idea that she continued this world. So, I'm just saying that the first book could like in 1995, before the second was written, it could have been, yes, that was a standalone, modern day kind of book almost, whatever. I guess I'm just worrying this issue to death. But you're about to actually sort of give a little recap its look like --

[Rhonda] Oh, want me to give a recap?

[Frank] If you want to --

[Rhonda] We can. Sure. So basically, this is -- you can help me out here too. We are reading the -- it's written in diary form. And so the story is being told to us through the diary of Lauren Olamina, and it takes place which to me, you know, I forgot that it took place so close to like the time that we're in now.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Between 2024 and 2027. And the world, the United States at this time has just completely fallen into chaos, destruction. You know, she lives in this community that's inside of this wall, which apparently most neighborhood is to keep safer inside of this wall, because the outside of these walls again, like it's just, you know, poverty and people are driven to cannibalism. And there's no more real education and there's a cholera outbreak and causing violence and so just, you know, you can't go out alone. You have to go out and groups and even the climate and environment has changed. You know, it hasn't rained in for six or seven years. So that's the kind of world that she's living in. And I guess, you know, because of this, you know, she's -- she begins to kind of think about her idea, her concept of God and what is God to her and begins to kind of develop her own religion called Earthseed with the premise, so that's of change. So that's kind of just like a really quick.

[Frank] Yeah, that's the one thing.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Pad for book. I mean, the-- she -- if she's living in California.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] And in a community that might have been once a gated community, but it definitely has a wall around it about 11 households in that community and the environment has changed and is changing. The government is basically getting smaller but more corporatized and that they're almost with a corporation's are buying towns and to, you know, inviting people to work in those towns, but basically not paying them enough to survive. So they're always in debt to their corporation that they live in. So it's a perpetual, vicious circle of not making enough to survive and always being in debt to your corporate employer that owns the town you live in, which is basically a form of slavery, debt slavery. There's a new president, which I know figures in the second book, but who sort of he's merging government and religion which is another reason why Lauren is questioning her own religious upbringing. Her father's administer, a preacher of Christianity. It's not really blatantly -- is it blatantly said Christianity?

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Really. I mean, she's sort of, you can assume it, but she sort --

[Rhonda] Yeah, you can assume --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- like that. That it is.

[Frank] That her upbringing is based in that religion, of course. And she's not really rejecting it. She's almost like, well, planting a scene in that basis and growing out of it.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] You could say, and she's 15 and pretty smart. I mean, pretty admirable. She has qualities that I wish I had. So yes, this is chaos. And there's also a drug in the world called pyro or ro, and it makes people set things on fire, which the watching of the fire is gives them a better feeling than sex, supposedly? So it's addictive, obviously. And I get it for a while I was thinking because it was written in 1993. I was thinking, if she was writing sort of a metaphor about like, the crack epidemic, from that period, like a sort of, like inner city destruction of --

[Rhonda] That interesting.

[Frank] -- if possibly like now.

[Rhonda] I mean, it's possible. I haven't, you know, I haven't read anything about that, specifically, because I kind of had my own ideas about what the whole pyro situation might mean. And it was just kind of my guess, you know, in terms of the world that they were going through, and I was just thinking about, like and you know, it seems to me, like the whole thing about fire is almost kind of a theme throughout the book, you know, I mean, pyro is definitely a big part of it but there's so much stuff that just like, it burns down, right? And I'm just -- I was thinking, you know, maybe this fire and the representation of just like, complete destruction and just kind of like starting over. And so that's kind of what I thought of is this idea of just like fire being something that just completely destroys and wipes everything out. And that's just kind of the state that everyone's --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, yes, that's -- yes, that's a good point. Because, you know, Earthseed, which is the 15 year old Lauren's burgeoning concept of God and religion is based in change. I mean, she basically, in her journal diary entries, starts writing these poetic manifestations of this. It's not really a religion, but like a belief system. I could call it a religion, I guess, a belief system that God has change. And that changes prevails, that change is constant.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And that -- but God can as change can be changed itself. You bring something to God as God brings to you so that change can change you and you can also change this concept of God. So it's more falling to the side of God is within one or not really, it's God is outside of you and that it's the world around you is if nothing else changing and --

[Rhonda] Right. Yeah.

[Frank] To prevail, you have to survive. I mean, there's some great lines of Laurens that she says, like, you know, survival is something like persistent, positive, obsession.

[Rhonda] So one of the things away once --

[Frank] Oh, wait, wait, one quick thing, the --

[Rhonda] OK.

[Frank] And I never interrupt you. Persisted the key word persistent there, which is good, because she says later, without persistence, you just have momentary enthusiasm.

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] And that's sort of shames me for a minute, because I think I'm more that than persistent. She's has courage to be persistent. So sorry, I'm sorry, go.

[Rhonda] No, I was just going to read this part. That in this -- The opening of the book and it's the kind of, it's a verse. So when you're reading the book, she has verses from this, I don't know if you want to call it like philosophy that she's written. But basically, the main verse that she keeps coming back to with that you kind of see repeated throughout the book is, all that you touch, you change. All that you change, changes you. And, the only lasting truth, is change. God is change. And I think what's interesting about kind of this new religion is she writes it in her in her journal -- well, this is written in her journal. But basically, what's different from kind of her God, and the God that you see from the other religions is that this God has no kind of specific feelings about you as an individual. So they don't love you. This guy doesn't love you. This guy doesn't hate you. This guy doesn't judge you. The God is just change. And he has no specific loyalty to you. So it's kind of up to you to change God and that and to take care of yourself. And that's kind of the philosophy of her and how she makes the foundation of this community that she builds. So, you know, that theme going through that this is -- that God is kind of what we make it.

[Frank] Yeah, and at the core of it is this concept of change, which, as we all know, I mean, just by, you know, even working in an institution or a corporation or a job, like, you know, what do we talk about all the time, well change, you know, changes is good, and change is coming, but it's difficult to navigate. And it's something that comes up all the time. And what you said before about the pyros and the people who sort of take this drug or devolve into this chaos, where they set fires that cause destruction, but they get pleasure out of it. And there's a lot of killing, and there's a lot of chaos. I'm glad you read that part because I wanted to have that said too. To me, the core of what happened is something that happens like a page around page a hundred, which is also another philosophy -- philosophizing from Lauren's diary about this burgeoning Earthseed religion she's creating, when she says that, when apparent stability disintegrates, as it must, God is change. People tend to give in to fear and depression, to need and greed. When no influence is strong enough to unify people they divide. They struggle, one against one, group against group, for survival position power. They remember old hates and generate new ones. They create chaos and nurture it. They kill and kill and kill, until they are exhausted and destroyed, until they are conquered by outside forces, or until one of them becomes a leader most will follow or a tyrant most fear.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] Welcome to 2020.

[Rhonda] Yeah, exactly.

[Frank] Or 2024, '25 [inaudible].

[Rhonda] Yeah, and you know, I think that's an interesting point about the idea of kind of like, dividing and separating these groups, you know. And the fact that I feel like a big another big theme in this book is just the idea of a community and kind of how Lauren, I mean, I don't know what to say like Jesus or something, but kind of like she's going on this journey. She kind of begins to pick up people and they begin to follow her. And she really begins to kind of like spread this idea and start this community, which is a bit a theme actually, across kind of all of Octavia Butler's books. But that kind of plays into it a little bit of what you're saying, but also, you know.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] It's, you know, it's reminding us of a lot of what's happening now.

[Frank] I mean, she's -- because what happens is she lives in her community. And that community is destroyed, and her family killed extensively. I have a feeling some might return in the second book. But as far as we know, in the first book, her family is gone. And she goes on this journey by herself on the road north. She'll also could be a slave metaphor in a way, like the journey north, because that what's interesting though, is all of what we just said in that Lauren is tall and she's strong. She's a 15-year-old black girl. And she has the ability, and this is what I said, I wish I had more of her qualities that she has the ability to see that the world has changed. There's a part in the book that says it's only when plagues and I think she uses the word plague or plague or chaos is visited upon us to most people then realize, oh, things change. Lauren sees change coming before a lot of people do, she senses it. And they because she sees the centrality of the concept of change and anticipates the possibility of change. Whereas her family around her and people in her neighborhood are just like, oh, it'll be OK, we have a wall around us. And you know, those crazy people are not going to get in. And they just want it to stay the same because they're frightened.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Or they are frightened for their loved ones, or they can only manage the status quo that has been that has developed. Because they again, don't understand like Lauren does that God is change, that things are going to change. And you have to be almost eternally -- you have to be eternally vigilant. So what I said about her height and her strength is that she -- part of that if you want to break it down, because I think all of us can say, well, I can adapt. I'll be adaptable. And when I really think about I'm like, I don't know how adaptable I would be, because one of the questions you can ask yourself in this book is how would I survive? Would I survive?

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] She stresses out a higher the hierarchy because she decides, I'm a woman, a young girl, alone on the road, not good. I can't do that. I'll be raped. I'll be hurt. You know, I'll think God knows what could happen to me. And so she goes under -- she just dresses as a man, which I think is an interesting thing because she's what that means to me is that she's looking and saying, OK, there's a hierarchy of power here. I've got good ideas, I think. I think I'm really going to survive, because I'm going to do this. I've thought about it. I've put thought into it, which is an important ingredient. But I know what I must do then to get through it. Don't you find that interesting?

[Rhonda] I do. I think, you know, she's kind of a visionary in terms of seeing what the future I guess it's going to be like, but also reading this, I just thought that she had really incredible survival instincts, like she kind of had something within her that says, even though the world is going to, you know, the worst thing that can possibly be. I can't say I want to say, but she said, I am going to survive this, like that is her.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] I feel like the things that drives her is survival, because, you know, we get it from the very beginning that she has -- she plans for what's going to happen. She read these books on how to, you know, grow certain foods and how to build things and she makes a survival pack. And she, you know, she has a plan for how to actually survive outside of the walls. And I think Earthseed, her religion is not just, you know, this philosophy of God. It is another way of saying we're going to survive, because at some point, humans aren't even going to be able to live on this Earth anymore, because we've destroyed it. So we're still going to survive, because we'll just go to a different planet. So I think this whole thing that she has, it's just like these incredible, like, survival instincts and this drive to just like, exist past all of this horrible things that are happening.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] And I think, and again like I think like, would I be able to do that as well? I want to say yes, but you know, we don't know.

[Frank] I don't know. I don't -- I honestly don't think I could. I would follow her because I knew she'd be strong and I sense that. I think I'd be smart enough to sense that but I don't think I'd be the leader. I think I would follow her. But that is an interesting thing about how one is oneself and how becomes oneself. Like you said, there's something in her that forces her to prepare like she does -- I mean, there's certain concepts that are illustrated by her actions like her constant reading and her giving of books to her friends to say, read these books on plants and how to eat in the wild, because you might need it to survive, like, her knowledge is power concept. And her preparing, like you said, a survival bag with which would have something she could just grab and then be on the road and have enough to get her through.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Which, you know, who does that? Like, I don't. I certainly don't have a survival bag. I mean, and it seems like, why would I and maybe.

[Rhonda] Yeah, you know --

[Frank] [Inaudible] are mobbed when there's a disaster because --

[Rhonda] Exactly, exactly. You know, things like those shows, you know, like the "Doomsday Preppers." And, you know, some of those, you know, people make fun of them, or look down on them. But I'm sure like, when the pandemic started, they probably had all the toilet paper, they need it, you know, so.

[Frank] Yup.

[Rhonda] So again, it's kind of just her foresight, but even when they're in the community, or she's kind of building up this community, she still makes these decisions kind of on her survival, you know, it's being out there, it's really dangerous, being outside the walls, I mean. And you don't really know who to trust, but she understands that being in the group is more important than kind of just being with her and her two colleagues or two friends. And so she began to, like, include more people. And as she includes more people, she begins to kind of slowly like, give them her philosophy. So I feel like that thing just kind of runs through the entire story as we just see her just have these ideas of how to live through these times.

[Frank] Yeah. I mean, what about the other characters like her? I mean, yeah, like her father, who disappears. You know, I mean, much is made of when you go outside the walls of the community, because he's a professor as well at a university. So he does go and teach. So he does have to go out but like a lot is made of, you know, if you don't have to go out of the walled community then don't.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] They're very subsistence with farming and selling each other goods. And even one household, like the last household has a TV and they charge people to watch it. I mean, everyone makes money how they can. It's interesting that one she made -- I was -- when I was reading because it was written in 1993, it's like obviously, no internet or cell phone yet.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And see how she, of course, none -- nothing is made of that except once she does refer to the father, I think, or Lauren's stepmother, that they are having a compu meeting.

[Rhonda] Yes, yes.

[Frank] Like a computer meeting on a computer. But like it's not, it's just a throw away. And I was like a compu meeting. I was like you mean Skype, or Zoom or whatever?

[Rhonda] And I think even if she did make it, when I wrote this, when we had cell phones and all that kind of stuff, I feel like it wouldn't make a difference, because it seems like everything kind of has stopped working.

[Frank] Yeah, exactly.

[Rhonda] You know, they're anyways. So it's like the TV, the one TV fails, and they only have like, kind of transistor radios, and --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Exactly. But so, you know, that's why I thought it was sort of like a metaphor. I mean, this is -- it's interesting, putting my own, you know, interpretation on something that might not exist like this sort of city in turmoil where her brother also leaves the -- this community and gets horribly killed and her father disappears. I was thinking about male influences in her life that are being pulled away. And also her like -- I said her -- she has a stepmother because her mother was a an addict who died when she was little or barely, you know, born says she's very much like on her own, like all these figures of authority or love or support are taken away from her. Even though she does not agree with her father as a philosophically who was a minister and she doesn't say it. She has the strength of mind to love him but also knows he disagrees with his philosophy, but they have a good relationship.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And so then she pitched into one chaotic night, you know, the whole community is destroyed, pitched into on the road north like this sort of concept of going north with a vague hope that there's jobs or opportunity or, you know, a sanctuary.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Oh, but then you're right, she said -- she does say her ultimate goal, which was vague at first I didn't quite take it literally like to live among the stars like she has this concept of living out off this planet, like this planet is done.

[Rhonda] Yeah, that's [inaudible]. That's it and again, like, I won't talk too much about it. But that plays a much bigger factor in the second book in terms of --

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] -- space.

[Frank] Well, I mean, nothing in the first book indicates like she's going to build a spaceship or anything, maybe like, you have no clue how that's going to work. I mean, it's not really made, I think too much of it's a goal, which you feel is, you know, could be realistic, because anything in a forward future set book can be realistic, don't know what might come by, but she's having a journey.

[Rhonda] That her idea of among the stars isn't act one that's immediate. She's kind of thinking maybe like generations down the line, but that -- this her philosophy will kind of prepare people for that. But one of the things I think kind of in terms of science-fictiony I guess, and that I was thinking about was, maybe, you know, Lauren is kind of this evolved human. And one of the things that I thought about that was you spoke about her mother, and her mother was addict of a certain drug, and this drug caused Lauren to have this syndrome called hyper-empathy syndrome, which means, you know, she can share other people's pain, and she can also share other people's pleasure. And even when she was a girl, sometimes if other people would bleed, she would even bleed.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] And, as you see, it's something that is a vulnerability for her. Because there's so much of violence in the world that if someone -- that if she sees some violence, she's going to feel it. But she refers to it, or someone refers to it in the book as a biological conscience, which I thought was a really, really interesting way to look at it, that your body kind of will tell you what's good or what's bad. And the idea that if everyone had this hyper-empathy syndrome, then no one would have caused each other pain. So I was thinking in that way, maybe she's kind of evolved, not just kind of in her thinking but physically as well.

[Frank] That's really -- I'm glad you of course brought that up, because it's a big part of it. And it's her hyper empathy is almost looked upon as a disability.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] She hides it. So there's that element too about what is it to be so called disabled in society. But what I really like about that hyper-empathy thing is that Octavia Butler makes it very, not complicated but multi-dimensional, and that it's easy to say, oh, she has empathy. And what do we talk about of course, a lot these days too, is like, we must have more empathy. But it's not just, you know, feeling at someone else's pain. I mean, because she feels that pain. And it's mostly panic, occasionally and there's scenes where she feels the other person's pleasure, which is sort of interesting scene. But she feels their pain, I think it would, I think that directly goes into her personality of God has changed in that she can see so clearly that everyone around her is as human as she is. That there is human and biological as she is, that she can then almost not attach too much emotional connection to them in beyond the fact that we're all brethren and in this together kind of thing. You do -- you know what I mean? I know you're not saying that, right? Because it also what her hyper-empathy directly in terms of skill gives her is that she can kill much more lethally because --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] -- she realizes if she doesn't kill, if she's in a situation where she's it's kill or be killed, she has to kill them so clearly, because she -- if they suffer too much, she suffers. Like if someone's she stabs or whether shoots someone, and they die slowly, she's feeling it too.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So she's at a commission. So like, if they are on the ground, dying, she's on the ground in pain as they are until they die, and then it's done. She also doesn't know like, am I going to die with them because she hadn't as a 15-year old girl didn't kill anybody. And then she has to and she realizes interestingly, because of that she has actually killed carefully and cleanly.

[Rhonda] Right. And she's not afraid to do it, either, you know, she doesn't hesitate again, kind of going to her whole idea of just, you know, surviving through all of this, you know, knowing that that can take her out. And she does run into a few other people, some other people join her group that also or I guess like the colloquial term for hyper-empathy syndrome is a share. So there are other people who are shares in her group who also hide it. And the interesting thing is, they were -- I think that's the people who were also shares were people who are running from this modern day slavery, this leaves debt, this debt slavery that you were speaking of. And she was saying how that was something that people, they, you know, that was appealing to those people who kind of enslaved other people, because they knew that it would be much easier for them to control if they knew that these people were shares.

[Frank] Right.

[Rhonda] But yeah, the danger and the and the vulnerability they have kind of living in this world is even worse than if it were modern day, you know, like how we live now to have this kind of hyper-empathy syndrome looks people will use it to enslave them use it against them. So that kind of just add an extra layer to who she is, you know?

[Frank] Yeah, I mean, this whole concept, I mean, because it is it such a concept of thought we have now about what empathy is and why we need to have it. It's -- I didn't say it right before, but there's something there that's not just like this sort of sentimental like, I feel what you feel so we're all in it together. There's something else there about this because you just said, having this hyper-empathy, people can use it against you.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] So if it's known, so it has to be actually kept quiet. Because as she encounters other people along the road, she realizes some of them are also shares like she is. I don't know. Do you hear that drilling?

[Rhonda] Oh, yeah, a little bit.

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] It's -- you know, look at as a sign of progress. Things are moving along.

[Frank] All right.

[Rhonda] You know.

[Frank] It's just, I'm just glad. Sorry, this is like, just life is going on.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Anyway, let me see.

[Rhonda] Let's see. I think --

[Frank] I'm looking at my notes.

[Rhonda] I want to know how you feel -- and I feel like I really like this, but reading books that are in diary format I mean, one of the things about it is that one, I feel like we really get to understand and know who Lauren Olamina is. But I also feel that with this format, we are really, really only getting a very certain viewpoint of what's happening. And I think that Octavia Butler might have done this on purpose, because I don't think that we are -- I feel like she has made Lauren, purposely kind of very imperfect. And I think one of the things that she had written in an interview that she wrote was that she gave Lauren, the middle name, Oya, because that's the name of a deity of the Niger River. And she said Oya means that she's unpredictable. She's intelligent, and she's danger is dangerous. So I'm thinking, because, you know, some of the things I think about in terms of kind of like Earthseed, and everything is like, OK, is this a really forward thinking religion? Or is this going to turn into some kind of cult? Like, is this going to become some kind of, you know, I don't know other things that we think or other religions that we think about there. I won't name any specific ones that are considered like cults nowadays. So is she this really, like great visionary who's going to change the world? Or is she's going to turn into something like a little bit more dangerous as she grows and gets more power? So I don't know I kind of thought of all of that when I'm thinking about reading this diary on a very specific point of view. I don't know if you had any thoughts on that, Frank.

[Frank] Do you hear that?

[Rhonda] I do hear that. Sorry.

[Frank] They just set off the fire alarm.

[Rhonda] Oh, no.

[Frank] That's interesting because if you look at what the title is the, "Parable of the Sower," which is the sort of story in from the Bible of you -- a farmer planting seed some land on stone and don't grow, some are eaten by birds, and some take fruit kind of thing. I felt like I liked and it felt non-culty to me and that I liked that it was really a sort of living let live but always try to survive. And some will work, some won't work, some will be -- will take you on a different road, but you still persist, and you still positively obsessively persist. And I sort of think that's sort of pretty logical in some ways and admirable and I -- you said before too about how this goes into this -- that her goal of going to the stars with very much in the future. I also like that about Lauren. And that part of this philosophy is not about necessarily the results because there is no results like she says, even stable societies will crumble or change that is a given. Her goal is to be -- is to survive and to persist. And it sounds like a it could sound like it's -- so this is probably, a depressing life because it's like, well, it's all about, this surviving or persisting, and no, like material goal or I've made it then what's the point of living. But once she accepts so much, or it's so much a part of her, that changes everything, that that's just the core for her. So the survival itself, it's only about happy you're not happy or getting or not getting, it's about persistent forward motion and decision. There's a line that says belief which you could say religion or philosophy or any kind of worldview, "belief, initiates and guides action, or it is nothing at all." So belief, if it's not about guiding action or initiating action is not -- is nothing, which is pretty strong. But that "Parable of the Sower" like, sort of -- is persuasive in that it is like some things are not going to work. I mean, it does seem, and that's Octavia Butler's choice that you could say, the happenstance of Lauren's life does a bet her survival but Octavia Butler's writing about a woman is going to survive and a woman who's going to be a leader. There is no question about that. She's going to go about her business and do what she needs to do. And, you know, nothing's going to get in her way, which is good, it's an admirable thing, right?

[Rhonda] It is. But here's the thing, and kind of -- and I think that reading that quote about why she named her Oya that she's intelligent, unpredictable, and dangerous, is because I think this adds an exciting element to the book into the writing, is that you kind of think, you know, someone who is so driven. And their purpose is survival, kind of, you know, what are the limits? You know, how far is she willing to go. And then also, you can see that she's kind of this natural born leader as well. And the religion, I think, towards the end of the book, you begin to see that the people who can stay with her and the people who can live in this community are the people who believe what she believes. They, you know, kind of had to adhere to what Earthseed is. And so that's just kind of making me think, you know, more -- think about her as a much more kind of complex person. Yeah. And she definitely has really admirable elements and qualities, but also thinking about, like, what kind of leader is she going to become the type of --

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- qualities and is she going to develop? And what else you know, as a leader of this group, is going to happen, so that they can survive? And I think that's something that is what makes Lauren a much more interesting character, kind of having those questions out there.

[Frank] Well, that's -- I see your point, because, you know, like with anything, she has to make judgments. She has to kill when she's feels like she's in danger. I mean, she does have a moral guideline that, you know, she won't kill someone just to get what's in their pockets, like some people are doing, like a lot of people are doing.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] She does have that moral compass. But you're right, because any belief system, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, I mean, it eventually if it gets big enough, it does seem to sort of devolve into some form of corruption. She does have this element where she -- and it's said frequently when she starts telling people about her Earthseed philosophy. She's, you know, their reaction is like, oh, please, you know, she has a very varied reactions. And she also makes it clear, like I'm not trying to proselytize, but you know, or she tries to say it in a way that's like, not going to scare someone, but it's like I'm imposing a belief on you and I'm a crazy cold person.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] But yet, you're right, if she's as she is a leader, well, you do know because you read the second book, but like, what happens when someone does attain power? You'd have to be even stronger to make sure it doesn't corrupt, it doesn't turn you corrupt. You know? It is --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] Is that what you're saying?

[Rhonda] I think, yeah. I think that's definitely a part of it. And I think that -- I think one of the -- I think that's actually one of the reasons why I really like the book.

[Frank] Mm-hmm.

[Rhonda] It's because I feel like there are a lot of questions out there about, you know, we're seeing such a narrow viewpoint from her diary, that, you know, kind of just wondering, you know, what is she going to become? How are these other people really viewing her? You know, what is -- how is she going to really make Earthseed what she wants it to be in terms of keeping this community with her?

[Frank] You know. I think that Octavia Butler did this now that you say that, because she didn't want this woman to be viewed through any other lens, but her own. She didn't want it to be viewed through her class lens or race lens or a gender lens. This was a strong individual who was going to manifest. And I think Octavia Butler did not want anything to get into that way. She didn't want to have to filter it or --

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] And probably refuse to -- well, have to explain her. Like, explain what made her what she is? What she's doing? Is she just was this girl who was going to try them, was going to achieve? And I didn't quite think of it that way until you just said what you said. So that's pretty cool. That's pretty great actually.

[Rhonda] I, you know, it could be -- I think I feel like that's what I thought when I was reading it. And I thought that's what made it and again, like you could be correct, like just not having to view her through other lenses. You know, also these questions about who she is, I don't know.

[Frank] Because another -- none of the things, like even mentioned, she tries to pass as a man for a while, like none of the things like gender, race, class money, really come into it for too long. What persists, again with that word, is her brain, her ideology, her philosophy, that's what makes her, her. Not over other stuff, that it's not made much of all the other stuff.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] You know what I mean? And that's pretty cool, actually.

[Rhonda] It's very cool, yeah.

[Frank] I did feel like how much I liked that. And I didn't realize it when I was reading it until now talking about it with you.

[Rhonda] Of course [inaudible].

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] No. I am -- yeah, I think that's what's you know, the cool things about this book. And, to me, I just think it gives me so much extra stuff to kind of to think about even having read the second book, you know. I still think about kind of what does it take to start a new religion, like, you have to have a very powerful person at the head, right, to really be totally committed to these ideals and what does it mean to be totally committed to these ideals that you have created? And how to keep this group who believes these ideals and, you know, just kind of what type of person does it take to do that? And what type of the world does it take to kind of have the -- to have other people believe this?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] You know. So --

[Frank] I mean --

[Rhonda] -- Yeah. Who are kind of falling in line with this? Like, is it because there's nothing else out there for them, you know, like, this is it? It was, I don't know, it's a lot to --

[Frank] I mean, it's that element of belief like I have -- because as I was reading it, like you know, she does accept certain people to walk with her, to continue on the road north with her. And she makes alliances, but I was watching carefully to see how she does that. And I realized it's really just a crapshoot, and that it's like a judgment call, like we all have to make and it just turns out that, you know, Lauren's choices are good ones for the most part. But like I was thinking, if I were on my own and like had a gun and everyone has to have a gun just so you don't get destroyed, because if you have a gun, that means you can fight back. I mean, and then you someone comes into your area, and they're walking with you and you're just like completely don't trust them and Lauren doesn't. Like what makes you eventually accept them. You just go by your guts, your instinct, and she had -- that's what I meant, like I'd follow her rather than be the leader because I don't think I have that good of an instinct. I really don't. I mean, I think when it came down to it, I would -- I don't know. I don't think it would end well for me, unfortunately.

[Rhonda] I don't know. I feel like it's hard to say. And I feel like she didn't even -- she believed that she could survive.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] But, I think it's also the idea of like, no one really knows--

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] -- to tell but like herself how she was put outside the walls, right? You know, she had a plan, but you can't really plan for what's going to happen.

[Frank] Yeah. And she [inaudible].

[Rhonda] When you're talking these situations. And luckily, you know, again, as part of the story, she was able to connect early with people from her own community. So she had those people, and then kind of figuring out who to trust. And again, the people who kind of joined her group were very vulnerable people, you know, she had a couple that had a baby with them. So they were both vulnerable. She -- The two sisters who had ran away from a very abusive father, the couple that had escaped from slavery. So these people that she chose, or that kind of joined her group were already like, in really -- coming from really, really dire situations, and everyone was. But these people who kind of came in were I felt especially vulnerable, and probably especially susceptible to be open to these types of beliefs.

[Frank] Oh, and you do see it as a cult, don't you? I know, you're questioning it. But you seem to be drifting there.

[Rhonda] I'm drifting towards cult like.

[Frank] Wow.

[Rhonda] But I think that's, OK. I think that that's interesting, --

[Frank] OK.

[Rhonda] -- to think about. To see it from a different point of view but you know, that's the kind of people that possibly that would be more open to joining the community. And because they need, not only do they maybe like the idea of Earthseed, but also they kind of need that group.

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] You know, they need the protection. When they find the land and the end, I mean, where else are they going to go? Where else do they have land and a group of people who are going to protect them? And some options? You know, like, again like you said, like you would follow her? Maybe I would, too, but I don't know if I follow her because of Earthseed, maybe I would follow her because that's the best option. So, and again, actually don't remember a whole too much from the second book, but I'm wondering if this happened. If there were people who were that comes out, you know, like, people were, maybe people don't feel so strongly about Earthseed, but they like the idea of having this protection and having this group.

[Frank] Absolutely. And that's sort of you know, Octavia Butler says that about a, that out of fear and need, you sometimes don't make the best choices that you have to really be thoughtful and you have to really think use the brain as far as its evolved for us. That couldn't help you make the best choice rather than making purely out of need and fear, which I think is what you're sort of saying which can attract people to cults. And I think Lauren's burgeoning cult is not so -- is a cult only in the loosest sense, is that because Lauren --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] -- is not a manipulator and she's not an abuser. And she even says like, people do not have to believe what I say.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] It's happening organically, which can maybe set the alarm off, but it's happening organically. But you were mentioning the other characters. Like, what about the, the man that she eventually has intimacy with?

[Rhonda] Bankole.

[Frank] Typically as the age of her father. She's 18 and he was like 57 like, what is that about? I thought it was fine. She's 18, he's 57. He's a nice guy. She's wants it.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] I was like that's an interesting thing. Like I -- because they made of something -- they made -- Octavia Butler made some -- make something of the fact that he's the same age as her father.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] I was like, what? What?

[Rhonda] Well, I don't know, you know, I feel like there's a lot there, you know, maybe her maturity level is that of so that she would not mesh well with someone who's in her age range, you know, maybe that's part of it. Or maybe she sees again with her whole idea of survival. Maybe she sees him as safe. That someone who can keep her and help her stay safe. I don't know there's a lot of things that she's meant about the age.

[Frank] She needs someone as smart as her.

[Frank] If she needs someone to smartest her, they do seem to have, you know, they had some things in common that she -- that they mentioned in terms of like, their families and the names that they were given. And, you know, he --I can't -- I don't know why this is slipping my mind how he felt about Earthseed. He seemed to be more resistant than the others in the group to her I guess.

[Frank] He was more like I was going to say comically dismissive. It wasn't comic, but it was more like I've been around the block. I'm an older guy. But he didn't what he basically says is like, I don't know about the gods stuff, but yeah, I guess yeah, obviously changed his part of life. And he's sort of like looking at it more prosaically where she's looking at much more like, this is the core of everything.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And he's a little dismissive, but he's -- it's lovingly dismissive. He is sort of like, you're smart like. Maybe it's interesting if Octavia is saying, you know, an 18-year-old Lauren needs a person who's been through a lot of life, because Lauren really has what it has it has the sort of wisdom of an old or an older person or potential older, you know.

[Rhonda] Right.

[Frank] Hopefully, little wiser, more older because it never really seems strange. It seemed like a good match.

[Rhonda] It does. Yeah. It seems -- I mean, we know of the age range or age difference, but she doesn't seem to discuss it that much in the book. And I don't know, maybe in a situation, they're in with the rest of the world just, you know, destroyed, maybe that kind of thing isn't that important anymore. You know, it's --

[Frank] Well, because there is Harry, the guy from her neighborhood, who's her age and eventually, you know, Harry's gets with Zahra, who's a girl from the neighborhood. They're all around the same age. It's it, I mean, it is -- I think she's definitely saying that something about Lauren's power that her capabilities are on par with a mature man.

[Rhonda] I think that's the point, I definitely, yeah.

[Frank] Get out of my way. Get out of my way. Oh, I guess there's -- yeah, it can be brutal, the book. So if anyone wants to read it and it's -- there's definitely brutal asides on what the landscape of the world looks like. And I found it harsh sometimes just like you mentioned cannibalism before. Some of those images are hard, pretty hard. I mean, anyway. Yeah, reminded me of, "The Road," by Cormac McCarthy.

[Rhonda] Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Frank] Only glancingly, I mean, they both have similar plots of like moving on a road towards hopeful, you know, something hopeful in an apocalyptic landscape. But, they're the comparisons really in that way.

[Rhonda] Yeah, and the cannibalism?

[Frank] Yeah.

[Rhonda] With well, in both books.

[Frank] Which, yeah, I guess is an indicator of dystopia that, you know.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Actually people will do that. Oh, that's not pleasant.

[Rhonda] I know -- Yeah. That's not a --

[Frank] Good idea.

[Rhonda] Yeah, I was thinking maybe you didn't want to end on the cannibalism but --

[Frank] Like they're too much -- I don't know. It does end with the - go ahead.

[Rhonda] Are you going to move forward and move with "Parable of the Talents?"

[Frank] I, well, sort of do. I mean, I wanted to read also the changeling the book you talked about before, like --

[Rhonda] Yes.

[Frank] It's on my list. It's one of those I just have to calm down and not talk to about it.

[Rhonda] Really fast. I don't know if you felt the same way. But I felt like I got this book, through this book really quickly, maybe if the format, but I kind of felt like it just flew by?

[Frank] Yeah, I agree. I mean, her writing is surges that keeps you going for sure. Yeah. I mean, that's why it never -- it doesn't matter how many pages that means about 300 pages, but it's about how you engage with it and how it's written. I mean, you know, if you provide the right time to it keep you going through it. And it's like didn't matter for those 3, 4 or 500 pages. It's not about length. It's about the writing and also if your brain is taps into that writing at that moment, not every book, you might love a book at one point, but not so much of another --

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] But I agree.

[Rhonda] I kind of go -- article. Yeah, the fact that so many people are reading this now.

[Frank] I know.

[Rhonda] In that, I think this was her first time ever on the New York Times bestseller list, you know.

[Frank] Yeah. I'm her death, too. I know. Oh, did you know that -- when you have to but did you remember on it because I read this of that, in the sequel "Parable of the Talents" that the president that's alluded to in the first one, President Donner, who's the president who sort of unites religion and government and, you know, it was just not a nice guy. His presidential slogan is, "Make America Great Again?"

[Rhonda] I did actually not remember that. I wonder --

[Frank] Well, in that she wrote that in 1998 the sequel to "Parable of the Sower," so I was like, what? And then I actually remembered and all that Reagan -- Ronald Reagan in the '80s had a slogan called, "Let's make America great again."

[Rhonda] And OK, so this is --

[Frank] So this was in the '90s. So Octavia Butler was probably harkening to Reagan time. And even Clinton, I think used, like make America great again, to some degree in his campaign, or possibly, but it's not new for now. But yet it's turned into something much more I mean bigger than it ever was.

[Rhonda] Yeah.

[Frank] And I thought Octavia Butler couldn't have been that prescient.

[Rhonda] And I know that would have been or unless someone from the campaign was reading Octavia Butler, which I highly doubt, so.

[Frank] Yeah, and actually, if they -- if someone who work from the campaign was reading Octavia Butler, that would make it tragic to the core because it's a dystopic terrible regime. And if they were going to take terrible regimes name that would just be the end of hope.

[Rhonda] Exactly.

[Frank] Oh.

[Rhonda] There's another nice note that we can end though.

[Frank] Oh, do you think we should actually say that this is going to be, you know, really, we're recording this before the election, but it's going to be out after the election?

[Rhonda] Yes. That might be important.

[Frank] Well, yeah. I mean, it's interesting because we're recording this. And it won't be released till after the results are in. So actually, if it might -- the book might be needed by people just as a primer of how to survive.

[Rhonda] Oh, boy.

[Frank] Geez. Oh, I guess we can't not end depressed.

[Rhonda] Yeah, I feel like, well.

[Frank] This is terrible.

[Rhonda] You know. OK. The idea, I guess there is hope, because that's what Earthseed is, is that, you know, that the idea that even when Earth is completely destroyed, there's still hope for humans in outer space.

[Frank] OK. And you reminded me that another comment in the book is hope is active.

[Rhonda] There you go.

[Frank] So, whatever happens, whatever change, whatever occurs, one can hope to turn that hope into action. There we go.

[Rhonda] Great point.

[Frank] Thank you, Octavia Butler.

[Rhonda] Yes, thank you, Octavia.

[Frank] And I'm so glad. I'm so glad I read it. I read, "Kindred" but I'm glad I read, "Parable of the Sower" and she's a very interesting lady. I'm flattered. I'm glad. I'm glad that she existed.

[Rhonda] Yes, absolutely.

[Frank] And wrote.

[Rhonda] Her writing is, yeah, wonderful.

[Frank] Yeah. So "Parable of the Sower," by Octavia Butler, the sequel "Parable of the Talents," by Octavia Butler.

[Rhonda] Mm-hmm.

[Frank] All right, so.

[Rhonda] All right.

[Frank] See you on the other side everybody. See what happens. And I'll see you soon too, Rhonda.

[Rhonda] I'll see you soon.

[Frank] Thanks, everybody for listening.

[Rhonda] Thank you.

[Narrator]Thanks for listening to "The Librarian Is In," a podcast by the New York Public Library. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple podcasts or Google Play or send us an email at podcasts@nypl.org. For more information about the New York Public Library in our 125th anniversary, please visit nypl.org/125. We are produced by Christine Ferrell. Your hosts are Frank Collerius and Rhonda Evans.